Hello, this is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar Vet welcoming you to another podcast from Vet Chat and really, really pleased today to speak to Chloe White, who is a good friend of mine and the webinar vet works at er at Carus Animal Health. Who've we've been working with for several years now and I'm really interested because I, I think Chloe, if you want to give us a little introduction to your background in veterinary and then also a little bit about Carus, and then we talk a little bit about, I think, mainly today going to talk about sustainability because, and environmental sustainability particularly cos it's in the DNA it's in the blood of Carus, it's something that, You as a team and a company are very passionate about, aren't you? Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me. I've been delighted to talk about sustainability. Most people, you know, like when I want to start talking about sustainability, they're like, oh, here she goes again. So thank you for having me. So I am Chloe White. I am a registered veterinary nurse and have been since 2013. I have worked in industry for just over 10 years now. For the last kind of 10 years prior to joining Cris, I worked mainly in animal nutrition. And I still love animal nutrition. I love the fact that it's like a holistic approach and you can make massive changes without ever having to stab anything, which I was a bit of a rubbish veterinary nurse because I didn't like stabbing things, even though I knew it was important. But now, yeah, I've worked for Carus Animal Health now for, 18 months. And we have produced our first product, GI Quest, which is a lateral flow test for faecal calprotectin. But we also have a lot of exciting things in our R&D pipeline that intermingle with, I would say sustainability, but also like antimicrobial resistance and one health. And that pipeline is really exciting, especially for somebody like me who is, you know, very. Concerned about the planet and our future on the planet and my daughter's future on the planet. So, yeah, it's a really exciting place to work actually. Yeah, and I want to call out now cos not everybody will be aware of it. Obviously an established company in Japan but very much startup in UK and Europe. And yeah, from the start I've known Jolian for a long time, who's your managing director, isn't he? Everybody knows Julian. Everybody knows Jolie's well known in the profession and we worked together a lot on projects. When he was at some of the other companies, and it was really interesting when Jolian started working with Carus and you started having products that you could really talk about like GI Quest. That he said, you know, sustainability, environmental sustainability is really important to us, so the last two years we've been partners, sponsors of the veterinary green discussion for enjoying the, the sunny south of France in the Camargue, weren't we? Yeah, no, it was beautiful. Yeah, absolutely lovely and really nice to be amongst like-minded people for 2.5 days. And obviously you made that possible to have some students coming to experience that, so that the event is very much about bringing all of the profession together, to talk about these issues as you say that will, you know, impact on, on all of our lives, but you know, particularly younger people and, and, and children and so on. And, and, and interestingly we were talking about antibiotic stewardship there and I know we're gonna talk about that a bit later, but I, I, I was surprised by some of the stories cos although we've been chatting to you for a couple of years and I've worked with you on GI quest, and I knew that it, you know, there was no single use plastic in GI quest, you're trying to move towards cellulose for er the packaging and so on to make it even more sustainable. And as we got chatting you're doing some really really cool stuff around an innovative approach to how do we reduce the use of antibiotics and hence er reduce the likelihood of, of resistance and so on. Er so maybe just any comments you want to make about GI quest and and what you're doing in so. That's our first kind of flagship product. It took 3 years to, to identify the canine antigen to like use a faecal calprotective measurement in a lateral flow test. Prior to that, it's been mainly used in like university and things like that, but we, there haven't been a patient site test that was available and it did take a really long time to be able to kind of develop that. And then by some absolute happy miracle, the cat one was genetically fairly similar. So even though they're species specific, we could use the same lateral flow test in both. So that was amazing. And I joined Carris just at the pre-launch of the product where we were going into our beta trial phase and all of the actual kind of science stuff is done, but now we're moving into kind of. How do we market this product? How do we launch this product out into the wild, as it were. And I had, you know, just joined Carus at this point. I was really excited to be, you know, with this company that is launching this like novel diagnostic test. And Jolian, who you've mentioned, sits and asks us as the team what, you know, feedback on the product. And so the thing I'd like to kind of say is that originally like GI Quest is built on a model that comes from human health because they've been testing faecal capprotectin in human medicine since the 80s. And, and this is kind of like a home kit. So they've built upon that but obviously made it species specific for cat and dog. And he's like opening it all up and inside is this hard plastic box and I was like, oh no. No, we can't, we cannot launch with this, with a hard plastic box. And you think there's only 10 tests in a box. And since launch we've got 150 clinics using it now. And they like, you know, have purchased multiple boxes and I was just thinking that's plastic box after plastic box going into the bin because it wasn't even a recyclable plastic. It was literally sort of a really hard, plastic and I think it's in human health it obviously has to be wipable and things like that, but. I'm sat there 48 hours into my new role thinking how on earth do I say this to my manager, you know, how do I say, ah, you know, we can't launch with this. And so I said to Julian, like this is all great. But the hard, the hard plastic, can we get rid of it? And he was like, oh, well, I think we can. I think we're working on it. I'll just double check. Do you think it's important? And I was like, you need to understand how important this is to veterinary professionals and how important sustainability is and how as a profession we are probably more concerned about the planet than another profession that you would survey, right? And so yeah, he came back and said, yep, no, it's going to become cardboard. And so this whole inner now hard plastic was gone and the inside was cardboard. And I was just like, oh, OK, yay, amazing. So not only was I listened to, which was lovely, and Jolian was really supportive, not only of my personal concerns, but also the fact that as a, you know, as a profession we would be concerned about this. But, you know, that the change has been done and we launched the product without hard plastic within it and. The lateral flow tests themselves come in currently a foil packet and we're now trying to find a cellulose outer for that so it would actually be like compostable or at least biodegradable, which again is really exciting because I don't believe, believe there is an equivalent for that at the minute. So yeah, it's really exciting in the fact that, you know, as we're going to mention about our R&D pipeline, which is very. Very much going into hardcore sustainability, one health stuff. My point at the time was we can't talk about these really big important things when we're not even like sweating the small stuff, like we have to do it all. But luckily I was really, you know, really supported and I was like, OK, yeah, I'm in the right place, you know, as somebody who It is, you know, passionate about this. It's lovely to see that that kind of sustainability is hard baked in, you know, as a start, if I can call you a startup, that you know it's something, yeah, we are a startup, yeah, that you're really passionate about and it's part of your makeup, part of your DNA. Yeah. And and you know of course one company doing this, yes there is an impact, it's a small impact, but every impact is really massively important and if every company can learn, and I think this is an area again that we can't compete on, on er sustainability, so if companies are wanting to find out how to do things, that sharing of information around packaging. To mean that it becomes more widespread as an industry, I think is, you know, is also massively important because then there is huge leverage in, you know, discoveries that one company's doing cos it's really passionate about it, to be able to pass that on to others who, yeah, just haven't thought about it as much at first, but they maybe doing some really cool work in another area. I think as well for me it's like. If we can start building, you know, when I talk about healthy habits, it almost makes it sound like I'm talking about sort of, you know, your own health, but actually when we talk about sort of the health of the brand. If we start these healthy habits now of, you know, at the launch of our first product, thinking about how we can make this the most sustainable way it can be. If we make that like a keystone, then hopefully from there it will then become the next consideration. And I am the sustainability champion now, so I am the person going to be going, hm, hello, hello, can we make this more sustainable please? So, you know, and there has to be that person that's willing to put their head above the parapet and be a little bit annoying in that way and I'm very happy to be that annoying person. But I'm also thankful to be in an environment where my colleagues support that and, you know, my boss supports that and the company supports that. And yeah, so hopefully going forward we'll be able to show more like showcase more of small things but also the bigger things as well. And I was lucky to Carus also sponsored me to do a carbon literacy course last year. And one of the things that I came away from that that I found really interesting actually was that Jen from Vet Sustain was very much. As much as we were talking about these really big things that actually the small changes really do add up and if everybody did small things, they would equate to big things, right? And that's why sometimes these things can feel so paralysing because they're such massive issues. But actually if you can just nudge to these smaller changes, they all add up over time. And so that was something that made me feel better, you know, about that kind of eco-anxiety that sometimes we suffer from. Well the people that care about it suffer from at least. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, you know, doing one thing. If everybody did made a 1 or 2% change, that's much better than one or two people making 100% changes, and, you know, it's, we, we, we all live within a system and we have to survive within the system, but we can also start changing the system as well, can't we? Yeah, yeah, I know, exactly, and it's building habits and behaviours, and I think if you then look around and you see everybody else doing that same thing that you're more likely to emulate that. And I know you we were talking about it before we pressed record, but I found that was really an interesting part of the kinetic talk that we went to last year where they were talking about behaviour but also about how there are actually probably a lot of companies doing lots of good stuff, but we just don't really talk about it. And actually if we all talked about it, it might then help people go, oh yeah, we're doing this and maybe then even sharing ideas. Wouldn't that be nice? You know, but yeah, I'm really lucky to work for Carras who. Are investing in sustainability, small scale and large scale, so that's really, you know, and that's why I've got you on the podcast because, I think it's really important, you were talking about eco-anxiety, solostalgia, whatever you want to call it, and, You go on to the news as well, there's a lot of negative news, not just about the environment but wars, etc. Etc. And so I think it's really important that we have stories of hope. You know, we tell those positive stories, so you know you are doing some great stuff. And, and there's lots of companies that are quite often they're. Very risk averse and don't want to talk about those stories, but I almost think now we're at the point where we have an obligation to tell positive stories to our, fellow vets and nurses, to our clients, you know, and to anybody who's gonna kind of listen because if we as a veterinary profession industry aren't interested in this area, we can't expect really other industries to be interested, can we? And I think it's that thing that nobody wants to have toxic positivity, but nobody can do anything if all you hear is the bad stuff because, and then what, what are we actually going to do about it, right? And so. That's where I think it's, you know, important to be sharing even as like the small wins because as you say, they'll hopefully add up to the bigger things and from the big, you know, from those things, hopefully you'll go and get even bigger things. So yeah, I think if you can demonstrate that people are doing something and the more people that are doing something. It's like that starfish analogy, isn't it, that if you have, you know, one person throwing the starfish in and hopefully more people will follow. So yeah, yeah, it makes a difference to that starfish when it's thrown back in the water, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely, and as a startup, you know, I think there's only 12 people that work for Carris at the minute, so. It's really exciting that we are so little, but we're already committed to that on a bigger scale, so yeah, it's cool. And and I think sort of for those listening, Laura Gelden Robertson, who's been working with us, particularly for the Becky Green Discussion Forum, has put together a fabulous report which. Should be out by the time this podcast goes out, so we'll make sure the links for that go out, an executive one which is a bit shorter, just to get a feeling of, you know, what we were getting up to at the meeting, and then a larger one with more of the detail and actually it was really fascinating me reading the larger report, and then seeing the really cool stuff that you're doing and perhaps, you know, I didn't know about that and I'm super interested in it, so I want to spend the next half, Talking about bacteriophage technology because I know, exciting, hey, it's super fascinating because I was looking at this probably 20 odd years ago, particularly with Pseudomonas infections in ears that something that we could do and I remember speaking to David Lloyd who's professor or one professor at the RVC at the time, and just that fascination with how bacteriophages could do really interesting stuff like reduce antibiotic usage, but you've taken it to a completely different level with the bacteriophage work that you're doing. I know, you know, spoiler alert, these products aren't out there yet, not yet. But they're moving on at a pace, let me tell you, and it's great also that you're open to talking about them at this stage. I want to talk about two of them, and we've got time, we'll talk about the third one, and I know there's one that you're, you're involving, but again, People all the time, there's a, there's a danger that we're, as an industry we're told that meat is bad, and you know because of all the, the methane that cattle produce etc. Etc. Yeah. It was then really interesting that Arla, one of the dairy companies were were using an additive to reduce methane, and then I heard people, you know, wanting to throw milk away, which just kind of blew my mind because it's a really steep product. But I know that you're, you've also created a bacteria phage that will help to reduce methane production in cattle which you know has just so many benefits. Tell us a little bit about. Yeah, so I will preface this with I am not. Part of the R&D team. So as much as I am the sustainability champion, I am not part of the R&D team, and I want to give a big shout out to Raj, who is the lead of R&D, Greg, who is our clinical director and has done so much in terms of sample collection, and then Ben. And his team at the research lab in Stevenage, every time I talk to them, they're like, we're doing this and you know, they're visibly excited, sometimes tired, about what they're doing. So I have some notes to make sure that I represent them in the way that they should be represented. But I think that's a really good point and that was something that came up for me in the Green Discussion forum because we know that, you know, methane methane is contributing to climate change and global warming, etc. And I think it's something like 27% of that is from ruminant livestock. But on the same, you know, thing, we're talking to farmers who, you know, we can't just eliminate cows overnight. This is their livelihood that, you know, like this goes back 67 familial generations. So, you know, and I love seeing cows, you know, on on farmland and things like that. So it's getting that balance, isn't it? And. Ensuring that we maintain livelihoods but also being, you know, stewards of the countryside. Also as John said at the er the forum. You know, they're also cattle are very important in sequestering carbon into the pasture with their faeces, etc. So sometimes it's very easy to tell a very simplistic black and white story, but it doesn't really tell the truth because it's much more complex than that, isn't it? Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that was the cool thing for me with the Greens discussion forum because as a small animal veterinary nurse, you know, I admire cows from distances. You know, I don't get close to them, know nothing about them. So, basically, in terms of what our coras are doing in their research pipeline at the minute, and, we have done in vitro. And X vivo studies so far. So we're moving, you know, as I say, quite rapidly through all the phases. So essentially, the research is, centred around, methanogen bacteria phage technology and basically cultivating, if that's the right term to use these kind of selectively, . Selective phages that help to reduce methane emission in ruminant livestock, but obviously without harming or affecting the cows in a negative way at all. Like that was like always the thing that was the most important because what's the point if your cow is affected. And what has been quite cool to see is not only has the approach basically helped to shift the microbial metabolism to reduce the methanogen or the methane production. But what was also been found to be beneficial is that actually by adding in these bacteriophage technologies, it's helping to increase volatile fatty acids, which was then helping to improve feed conversion. So there may also be like a multi-factorial benefit here from basically incorporating these bacteriophage technology into feed. So as I say, they, they've been working on it in terms of in vitro and ex vivo now. And so far there's the potential to reduce enteric methane emissions by 80%, which. Wild, quite frankly. I, I say to our Raj, our head of R&D, I'm like, is this the Nobel Prize? Is this what you're aiming for? And he just asked. He's like, we've got to get it to work. But yeah, for me it's like, you know, I, I, you know, I love cows. I like I, I don't want to see them disappear. And I certainly know how farming is so important to. You know, like the UK and speaking to the, the large animal vets at the Green Discussion forum of how passionate the farmers are about the countryside and, you know, looking after their environment for where they live, you know, and like you say about the carbon sequestration, you know, they're not just chucking CO2 into the atmosphere and then going, you know. Like, let's forget about it. There are farmers who are conscious about this. And so this could be perhaps the bridge that helps to kind of, you know, potentially have our cake and eat it. And I know there are other, yeah, I know that there are other factors. There are other factors obviously in terms of land mass and you know, feed, etc. For. Where we're trying to, you know, feed ourselves. But I think for me the fact that A, this is proving to actually be successful in, in the early research, but also that it doesn't harm the cows is, is really, really exciting. And we'll have to think about how we market it to not upset the people that threw the milk away, I guess. That's a, that's a problem for future us. . It's really interesting because. It sounds like you know we're doing the right thing with that technology, but also it's translating into this will save the farmer money because if you're more productive in converting, You know, food into milk or food into meat, then of course you have to use less of that, that's good from a carbon perspective because you don't need to produce it, but it's also saving you money because presumably you'll be using less food. To get, you know, a a a bigger return on, on milk or or meat or whatever, so that sounds really exciting and we talked about that at a previous veterinary green discussion forum, I remember reading a report about seaweed having an effect of helping to reduce methane as well, so, it's these lovely innovative approaches that says we have a problem. How do we solve it rather than moaning about the problem, and I think the human. Brain is very good at solving problems, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's what, you know, puts us above other mammals, right, but I think it is the, the want to solve the problem and there are people unfortunately who are not that bothered about solving the problem, so, or get so tied up with the problem that they just feel it's insolvable and therefore they, they, they, they are paralysed by it and don't start on the, on the journey, so. I want to talk about one of my other diseases that I used to see quite often when I was a young large animal vet, and that was New Forest Eye, because then I think bacteria phages, but this is even more otherworldly and exciting. Yeah, this is kind of the stuff where, you know, when I joined Carris and I was being shown these pipelines, I was like this this is the stuff of science fiction and you know, it's very cool and I was I mentioned Greg who is our clinical director and he Does so much work with flies that me and our colleagues have nicknamed Lord of the Flies and he'll probably kill me for saying that, but he takes it in in very good stead. But that was an in joke that is no longer in. It's out. It's no longer in, it's out now, but he, yeah, he is also an incredible, he's also an ophthalmologist that is just very interested in science and, you know, being part of that research and development pipeline. But yeah, essentially. Looking for a solution for IBK, so pink eye or as you say, New Forest eye, so infectious bovine keratico conjunctivitis. In terms of, you know, again, this is something that I've only been learning about recently, but I, again, I was totally ignorant to the fact that how much this affects. Not only the farm productivity but also obviously the animal welfare as well of these poor calves and you know that get this horrific eye infection and not only can it be incredibly painful but also then lead to the loss of the calf, which again is just such a, you know, a sad waste of life, you know, it's just tragic really. And because, you know, this IBK is so highly contagious and so then you also have the issue that it's leading to elevated antibiotic use. And when I was doing some research about this at a different time, basically all of like the traditional fly control, because it is basically transmitted by flies, that that those control strategies have proven to be pretty unaffective. So, you know, people are trying but they're just not working. And essentially again. Using samples that Greg, as we say, Lord of the Flies has collected, they've been able to develop a novel bacteriophage solution that can be, that basically targets it targets Moroccella bovis and Moroccellabivoculi. Which they can then deliver via the face flies, so basically using that natural vector for transmission. And this is the bit where I was like, excuse me, sorry, what, what do you mean? And they were like, yeah, no, so basically we're going to use the flies to to to pass on this positive bacteriophage and I was like, what? So they isolated 30 bacteriophages with 3 strains that demonstrated effectiveness against 90%. Of the bacteria, which is wild, but also that in a pilot study they were able to show that they significantly reduced bacterial load in calves. Again, so for me there's like. It's like this the the the Venn diagram of what Chloe wants in her life, which is improved animal welfare and better sustainability for the planet. It's like, you know, you've got all the positive outcomes here if the pipeline continues to work as positively as it has. And you know, I don't want to be talking about Lucca all the time, but it's, it's making sense for the farmer, it's, yeah, it's having financial gains as well, you know, obviously. You know, like you, behaviour is, sorry, welfare is really important that the animal welfare is really good, the planetary welfare is really good, but we'll, you will get a much bigger uptake of these products if, It makes sense from a financial perspective because not everybody is, you know. Committed to the environment as much as as well. And you know, you, you could be really cynical and just say that I'm only going to implement these changes if all of this pipeline becomes a success and we're able to demonstrate all of the products that we have. If the people only adopt it because it's of of of a financial benefit, fine. The other benefits are still going to come, you know. And I sometimes wonder actually when we look at sustainability and. These changes that need to be made to, you know, reduce the general temperature and climate change and, you know, greenhouse gases, etc. If people only went for it because actually a lot of these green solutions would save money over time, whatever, fine, crack on. But the outcome is still gonna be the same, right? So yeah, it's that's again another thing that's just very, very cool. And. Yeah, you have to watch this space on that one. Let's finish off also with, you know, protein is really important for, for, for life, for, for us to to eat and, and the aquaculture industry is a massive industry now. Er obviously farming of the different fish species can have problems, you've got them in a natural environment in a loch in the sea or whatever in cages. You're pouring in various chemicals including antibiotics again to control some of the diseases that we can see, and we do, you know, I think aquaculture is powerful but we really, really want it sustainable because it's going right into the sea which is such an important environment. So again I know that you're working with researchers in Copenhagen on a bacteriophage again to help with reducing antibiotics in, In aquaculture, perhaps tell us a little bit about that as well. So again, this is, you know, as you've mentioned, bacteriophage technology and you know, again, it's kind of broaching those two paths of not only just improving the welfare of the fish in the farm, but again in terms of actually improving the yield of the amount of, for example, salmon that you're able to get out of these farms. So these bacterial infections have proven to be sort of affect the early stage salmonids the most and the major cause of their mortality, which obviously is not ideal for the farmers or for the fish. And especially in recirculatory aquaculture systems and hatcheries as well. And so essentially one of the issues then that we have with that is not only are they relying on antibiotics just kind of in the solution, which is sort of a fairly kind of chuck it and see way of like treating them, right? It's treating everybody for the one or two that need it, isn't it? Exactly, potentially, exactly. And you know, I was seeing some of the images that Greg shared with us and you know, when you see some of these poor fish with some really horrific like sort of wounds and stuff on them, it just, it made me sad. But so we're kind of having to put in water treatment but also antibiotics at the same time and as you're saying that that effect that's happening then in the like the general aquaculture surrounding the fish farm. And there are growing challenges with, as I, as you've said, like not only the welfare, there's also, you know, a a greater need for sustainability of the population of of food and also with these farmers, there are now certain countries that are, you know, saying that you you can't. Import fish that have had, you know, high levels of antibiotic treatment. So then you've got a load of fish that perhaps are not then going to be sold and then what happens with them. And also I can't even bear to think about the food waste that would potentially become as part of that either, which would then be another issue. So in collab collaboration with the University of Copenhagen, we've created Aquaphage, which is essentially again, a targeted bacteriophage based solution and that controls those pathogens. And it's been able to show that we can successfully eliminate the harmful bacteria while still preserving the microbiome, which for me was the thing that really blew my mind because obviously when we talk about antibiotics as well, if we talk about it in the gut, like there's often a conversation that we'll have with about GI quest, is that when we talk about, you know, managing the gut, generally, then there will be some deficit of that microbiome. And so the fact that this would actually, you know, make sure that only the bad stuff was eliminated and the good stuff was maintained, that was incredible too. But the cool thing that's also happening amongst all of that is that they're trying to develop it in different formats. So depending on the, the, you know, the farmer or the aquaculture's need, there would be different ways of using it. So there's 3 different formats they're using as well. So there's a replaceable phage philtre and for that sort of continuous control. And so if they don't need it, great, or if maybe they do. Phage enriched feed, so literally to give it orally, so you know, you don't even have to again stab or make anything sad. And then water additives that would be you know, not harmful to the environment. So, you know, just finding these different ways of actually being able to even pass these bacteria hase technology on. And I was speaking to somebody about this and he's also a friend of Greg's and . He was basically saying like we were talking through the the the topics and he's very much into his welfare and he was saying this in particular was the thing that he was like this is mind blowing for. The effect on, you know, not just the welfare of the farmed fish, but the impact that that would have on the generalised, you know, sea environment and how that then ripples out to affect the greater kind of oceanic population, etc. And it was that that got him. Most excited. So that was really cool to see because I was thinking about it in a much more small scale and he suddenly expanded my whole kind of worldview of how much that would make a difference. So that was really cool as well. So hopefully all these projects will continue to go at the pace that they are, you know, they have been. And again, big shout out again to the R&D team who are working so incredibly hard on this. And yeah, we just continue to support them and go, you're great. And, and you're great as well, Chloe and Cur because you this work is so important and when people tell me, you know, why are you so hopeful about the environment and the, the crisis that we're in at the moment, how can we turn that around? I go, well. Government, hit and miss, sometimes good, sometimes not so good. Yeah. Individuals, we are a creative bunch, but then actually business is a real force, can be a force for good, it can obviously be also, you know, not as interested in these areas. But I believe that the big problems will be sorted by companies like yourselves, er coming together and and solving the big problems, hence, you know, why I, I kind of formed the Veterinary Green discussion forum. Four odd years ago because when you're on your own it feels quite lonely, but if you can bring people together and learn from each other, trying to, to learn all this yourself is very difficult, whereas if you pick up little ideas from different people it it's it leverages and magnifies everything doesn't it? No, absolutely, and I think, If there are more of you sort of shouting about what you're doing or trying to do, those voices will get a lot louder and it's often the the people with the, the minority voice or that I'll try to be the loudest when actually there's a lot of people doing a lot of good who don't shout about what they do. And I, yeah, I would like to be one of the voices that's shouting about positivity, please, and showing that there are, there are people out there that do care and that this is something that is important to, you know. Big business as it were, you know, we are, you know, we are a small startup but we are owned by the biggest, pharmaceutical company in Japan and this, you know, we are their R&D arm to try and. Sort of expand these projects out to a greater population. And you know, if we can prove it in sort of a European market, then, you know, the, the slightly more conservative, you know, other markets will hopefully then adopt it if you can have a proof of concept that's, you know, that's positive. And as you say, if it then means that people spend less, then they're also more likely to adopt it, aren't they? But yeah, I, these are the things that make me hopeful for the future. Thank you for shouting and thank you for coming on the podcast and obviously for Carris for all the work that they're doing, you know, within the business but also supporting the green discussion forum, you know, I really appreciate that, that gives inspiration to me as well. So thank you so much to you personally Carus and thanks everyone for listening and hopefully see you on a podcast or a webinar very soon. Take care.