Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Vet Chat. Today's topic is one that has been gaining attention in recent years and is one that our community have fed back that they'd love to hear more about. So today we're gonna be discussing the gender pay gap with BVA senior vice president, Justine Shotton.
Justine is a 2008 University of Bristol veterinary graduate with a first class intercalated degree in veterinary pathology from the Royal Veterinary College. Justine has over 12 years' experience in zoo medicine, small animal practise, and mixed practise in Oxfordshire, London, and Hampshire, as well as internationally. In 2014, she completed a master's in wild animal health from the RBC and the Zoological Society of London.
Since 2015, Justine has worked as the veterinary services manager at Marlwell Zoo in Hampshire. Alongside her veterinary and conservation work, Justine also works as a small animal and emergency veterinary locum. So welcome to vet chat, Justine, and thanks so much for joining me today.
Thank you so much, it's really great to be here chatting about this today. So let's start at the very beginning. What is the gender pay gap?
So the gender pay gap is where there's a discrepancy in pay levels for a similar job between male and female. So we can see other sorts of pay gap, for example, for other ethnic minorities or for people with different sexual orientation, but today we're gonna be talking about gender in particular. So for, for example, why, on, on average in the UK in any profession, women get paid less than men, and, you know, it's really, there's no excuse for that when they're doing the same job and they're just as well qualified.
Yeah, absolutely. So what's, happening in the veterinary profession, specifically regarding the gender pay gap at the moment? So across the UK for all professions, we see an average pay gap of men earning 15.4% more than women.
And last year's SI salary survey, which is the survey that goes out to veterinary professionals looking at what they're getting paid, not all vets feed into that, but many of them do. They showed that in the veterinary profession, which, interestingly, as it's a female dominated profession, we're still seeing a 15% pay gap between male and female vets with the males being paid. Higher than, than the female vets.
So we're seeing this across the board, even for new grads. So for newly qualified female vets, they're getting on average 6% less than their male counterparts. And again, there's just no reason or excuse for that.
It seems like, a madness in this day and age, particularly in our female dominated profession. Wow. So literally from the get-go.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, you know, there are other pay gaps that worry us as well for some of the other protected characteristics.
For example, when we don't have figures in the veterinary profession, but, but nationally in the UK we're seeing a gap of 16% less for LGBT plus workers and up to 16% less for specific minority. Ethnic groups. So, again, this is really worrying, and, and that feeds into the worries that we have around diversity in our profession, not just around, gender diversity, but also these other, protected characteristics.
And we want to make the profession as diverse as possible, so it's robust and resilient for the future as well. So, really worrying, but yeah, today we'll focus on that gap between men and women. Yeah.
OK. Thanks for seeing. So what does it mean to close the pay equity gap and how can we do that?
Yeah, so it's a really complex area and the reasons that employers are inclined to pay women less are very complex, not fully understood. And as I said, this is not unique to the veterinary profession, it's a societal issue, but still, that's not an excuse that we shouldn't do anything at all. And I think we all have a responsibility as employees and employers and members of the profession, to really start looking at how we can tackle this sort of discrimination, what we can do about it, why it's happening.
And I don't think, at the moment we've got all the answers, but I think it's something that we really need to address. And at the British Veterinary Association, we've been doing a lot of work on this, Particularly using our good veterinary workplaces activities. So hopefully, many people listening will have heard of this resource.
It's fantastic. There's a work that you can read through lots of different sections around sort of workforce, workplace culture, you know, HR, career progression, diversity, inclusion, etc. Etc.
But all So it talks about things like pay and transparency, talking about, you know, within your teams, between those conversations between employer and employee, how you can have those sorts of conversations in a really open culture and discuss those equality issues. So there should be some sort of transparency so people know that they're at least getting a level playing field of pay. We've also been developing over the last few weeks and hope to launch later this month in February, a really exciting new resource for our members around how you can have some of those conversations and how you can talk about pay.
And I think that would be a really good way to open up into this really challenging area of the, the, the pay gap between the genders too. OK, interesting. And when's that coming, you said it was coming soon.
Yeah, so that should come out the week of the 20th of February. So, yeah, we're looking forward to that and we'll have a bunch of resources around that, but a really helpful kind of workbook resource to, to go through. And it's aimed at everyone.
So new grads, people that have been in the profession for a long time, women and male vets, and really everyone, and employers and employees. We know it's often a taboo subject talking about pay, and I think many people are quite uncomfortable about it. I think, you know, ingrained in our profession is that.
Sort of, pressure from the public often that we should be doing things for free and, we're, we're not remunerated comparatively compared to other medical professionals. You know, we, we know all of this already, and that's a sort of separate issue. But I think at the very least, we need to start having those open conversations about, you know, what people are getting paid at least tier level, and ensuring there's no discrimination around that, either accidentally or, or inherently in the systems.
OK, brilliant. And that will all be on the BVA website, a little more information. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and so will all of the good workplaces resources.
So our policy position around with good workplaces that this is sort of a piece of the puzzle that was developed from an evidence-based position, you know, a huge lot of work and working group went into that. It took, you know, a good, good couple of years to, to go through. And then that was published in full, so everyone has access to that whole position.
It's a really meaty document, but full of fantastic information. And then as well for the BBA members, we've got that workbook to, to work through and really break it down into chunks, go through it in your teams. And again, anyone can lead on that.
You don't need to be the, the manager in the team to, to lead the way on that and improve your practise culture. OK, fantastic. That sounds great.
So you touched upon earlier, the SI study, and all around, you discussed around the sort of pay gap. Tell us a little bit more about that, please. Yeah, so, we've seen it over the years in the profession, and I think there was some feelings that maybe it was because younger members of the profession coming through, are more women, and maybe there was a pay gap because the older members of the profession were male and getting in more senior leadership positions.
But we're really disappointed that we're seeing this pay gap even in the first few years, if not the first year after graduation. And, you know, I think it makes it really clear that if we ignore the drivers causing this inequality in the hope that the next generation of women coming through will automatically earn more as their careers progress, then we'll face just the same problems in the future because it's a female dominated profession. Women are being underpaid and underrepresented in, in more senior roles, so there's a whole tier of issues going on that we're still seeing, even though there's plenty of women in more.
Senior years in the profession and been, been vets for a long time, they're not taking up those leadership roles as frequently as men. And again, there's some underlying reasons that that might be the case that I think we've all got a responsibility to address. So it's really difficult.
I think it's, it's ingrained in our society. We need some dramatic shifts in the workforce so that we can help address these issues and make it fair for everyone. Yeah, absolutely.
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You touched a little bit on before as well about the BVA and some of the great workbooks and things that you've got there. There was also a study with the University of Exeter around gender discrimination. Do you have any more information about that that you could share with our listeners, please?
Yeah, so the University of Exeter, did a, a lot of looking into this, sort of area, and they did an experiment called the Mark and Elizabeth experiment. So that looked that, a, a male and a female character with identical experience and qualifications, and they tracked them throughout their careers, and they found that the employers were likely to pay women less. And to offer them less support in the workplace workplace as well, to progress into those more senior roles.
And that was throughout the career. So, as you were mapping these two people, not only were they paid less, but they also had less opportunity. So, therefore, they couldn't earn more because they weren't in the more senior roles.
So, you know, that's really worrying. It's really just completely inexcusable, in my opinion. And you know, we, it's something that we, it's been shown in an evidence-based way that this is happening, and it is happening in our profession.
So, I think that there's, you know, there's a lot of talk, particularly around, women with families and how, how we can function as vets. And I think we really need to focus on flexibility and flexible working. And interestingly, we've done a lot of surveys around this as well through our, our voice of the veterinary profession surveys.
We found that actually, most people, whether they're men or women, want to work flexibly because of lifestyle reasons, not because they've got caring, i.e., children, responsibilities.
So they want to work because they want to do their leisure activities or pursue another hobby or something like that. So it's, it's not quite, what it may seem, it, it, on the first look at this. That being said, it's really important that Profession embraces flexibility.
And I think COVID has probably helped with that, because it's shown that we can work in different ways. You know, there's more options for splitting shifts or giving people part-time options, retaining those staff. This is key and critical to ensure we don't have vets leaving the profession, because if they have kids, then they need to, to provide some care, or if they want to pursue other things.
So They can have that better work-life balance, whether they're male or female, you know, it's really important to support that and embrace that, because that's how we will keep vets in the profession and ensure they, they don't leave, which is what we're seeing currently. And it's the employers that are going to, to take that on board and embrace that. I think that we'll be the ones that thrive and are resilient into the future, because they'll have teams that are fulfilled, that are.
Having a really good balance, if they have got caring responsibilities such as families, whether they're men or women, they'll be able to provide that care. So really important to embrace, embrace that flexibility, I think, as well. Yeah.
Absolutely. I mean, I'm still, gobsmacked about that study with the University of Exeter. So was that a recent study?
It wasn't something that was like 20 years ago? Yeah, no, that was just a few years ago. So when we were developing the, well.
This resource, but also the good workplaces work. It looked at that, and we did a whole piece around discrimination. You might have seen our microaggressions campaigns last year or the year before as well.
So, what that University of Exeter, study fed into many of these resources, and sad, sadly, we're seeing those statistics coming through. And it looked at other things as well, but particularly around gender. And, you know, I think you, you might make the assumption.
In a profession where there's so many women, the women will get paid the same as the, as the men, but it's just not the case. And I think it's quite surprising to many people, definitely outside, but also within the profession, to actually hear that that's still going on. And, and that it's very similar to the national average as well, that 15%, which is significant.
Yeah. Absolutely. OK.
Brilliant. So how, How can we sort of manage and lead and deliver pay equality in the veterinary profession? Obviously you've explained how it's still such a huge problem, but how can we actually drive change and make a difference moving forward?
Yeah, so I think, we've got a long way to go and that data supports that really, we, we need to progress this, we need to look at it urgently, and that will again help with that retention piece. We need to bridge the gaps and create the environments where everyone can thrive from graduation onwards, and, and they feel like they're being valued and having a fair deal, because again, I think if people feel like they're either being undervalued. Or, you know, it's not fair, and it's the, the male vet who always gets the promotion, for example, then they're going to leave the profession and do something else where they feel like they can have a better opportunity for, for progression.
Career development is something in our good workplaces, that we found is, again, a, a massive driver for retention. If those vets don't feel like they're gonna make their way up the career ladder, whatever that looks like for them, then again, they're probably going to leave. So, you know, I think we can't sit back and wait for the societal change to happen, and hopefully that will happen as well.
But we're, because we're such a profession that it attracts so many women, we need to be really leaders on this ourselves. And I think ensuring women are being, promoted. In leadership positions is critical as well.
So women are seeing role models in the profession in those leadership positions. And I think, I think that is getting better, but, again, we've got a long way to go. And when they're there, ensuring they're getting paid at at least, you know, on the level playing field as their male counterparts, absolutely.
I think we need to tackle issues around discrimination across the board. We are quite a unique profession in that we're not very diverse, and we really need to change that, again, to make sure we inspire everyone across the, the diversity of, of people that exists to come into this wonderful profession, and have those role models for the kids who care about animals that want to get in there. You know, whether they're boys or girls or black or white, etc.
Etc. We need To talk about pay transparency, and hopefully our resource coming out later this month will really help that and help get those conversations started. So, how can you discuss salary?
How can you discuss the total reward if you're getting, you know, other benefits like CPD, pensions, etc. How do the pay structures work? Will you understanding that when you're taking on a job, knowing when you'll get reviews, if you'll get reviews at all.
And, you know, having that team transparency, so there's not sort of Whisperings in corridors about people getting promotions or pay rises, because that really creates difficulty in the, the culture, and that team dynamic as well. And, and it's important to remember that, that, that's aimed at all veterinary professions, professionals. So I think it's really important, you know, we're talking a lot about vets here, but veterinary nurses, also need to be able to have these conversations around pay so that they're feeling adequately rewarded and valued for the work they do as well.
I think the same for new grads. I think often. You know, if you're taking on a new job, it's the last thing you want to, talk about is a negotiation around pay.
But actually, with the, workforce crisis, new grads are in a really unique position that they can pick and choose really good practises, and I think they should be looking for these things and looking for green. Flags, of, of employees that talk about these sorts of things early on rather than red flags and what to avoid. So, you know, almost flipping the perspective is really important.
And practise managers need to be, you know, equipped so that they can have those conversations without it being a really taboo subject. So I think I'd guide people, especially towards the good workplaces, resource, that's fantastic, and, and it doesn't just talk about pay, it talks about so many things that's so important to all of us, but also do look out for this pay resource. Hopefully it will just start to open up those questions.
And I think, you know, employers as well, being really. And honest with themselves about looking at their pay structures. And if they do notice that there is some discrimination there, then, you know, adjust that, have a look at it, change it, fix it, because hopefully, that will be something you can do immediately without too much impact, but will have a big impact, positive impact on your teams.
Brilliant, that's great, Justine, thank you, lots of great advice there. We are running out of time, . Everything that you've mentioned, you know, if you send us copies or links or anything, we can make sure that we get all of that on our blog so that if people are at the webinar vets platform, it's very simple for them to go and have a look if they need any further information.
Have you got any final comments or anything you'd like to share before we we finished today? Yeah, just to say thank you so much and just to remind people, have a look at those resources and, and try not to be afraid about chatting about this. I know it's really hard, particularly, you know, if you're in a practise where you feel like you maybe aren't getting paid the same as someone else, or you feel like you're being undervalued, rather than just sort of give up and leave or, or just, you know, ignore it, it, it will have an effect on you.
So I think, you know, being brave to have these conversations and hopefully making it again more of the norm, because we all need to be talking about this, and, and that resource hopefully will help you guide through how you can approach that in a really helpful way. So good luck to you all. Oh, thanks just see, that's brilliant.
I think the fact that women are still getting paid less than men for doing exactly the same job is just crazy and it's just totally not OK. So thank you so much for listening. It's been a really important and thought provoking discussion.
So thanks very much to seeing. Take care. Thank you, take care.
Thanks, bye.
