Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from Vet Chat. Welcoming you to another of our episodes, really pleased to have Hugo Richardson on the line today, who is the owner and founder of the Nordic locums. Hugo, welcome.

Hi Anthony, thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, great to see you and some lovely, some lovely plants in the background there. Yeah, nice to have an office where I can work with a bit of greenery around me, rather than a sterile veterinary clinic sometimes it's nice to have a bit of plants.

Yeah, for sure. Well, tell us a little bit about yourself. Obviously you are a veterinary surgeon, qualified a little while ago now.

You're no longer a young vet, are you? We can't, we can't class you as a young vet anymore. I, I still feel like a young vet, so do I.

Yeah, good. So yes, so I graduated back in 2007 now, so, I've been working as a clinical vet for pretty much, 15 years, . And yeah, it's been a real, a really interesting ride, a mixture of, I mean, I started out as a mixed practise vet doing cattle and horses and cats and dogs in, in Taunton in Somerset for a couple of years.

And that was a really good introduction to veterinary, really nice mixed practise, really supportive colleagues, kind of. Thrown in the deep end, but supported. So, you know, doing lots of surgery from day one, doing lots of, you know, spaces and castrates really quite from early on, as well as all the farm visits, and equine stuff.

So it really was a good opportunity for me to, to experience everything, the broad range of, of, of the veterinary clinical work, . But then after a couple of years, I got given a, fabulous opportunity to go, and do a master's degree, in, with the Royal Veterinary College, RBC and combined with the Zoological Society of London ZSL London Zoo, and it was something called Wild Animal Health, and it was really looking at, it was a master's degree looking at. Wildlife, wildlife conservation, and, and the, the benefits and threats really from wildlife in terms of emerging infectious disease, global pandemics, and, as well as, you know, managing the, the collections within the zoo, both at Whitsnade and at London Zoo.

So I spent a lot of time, with there. One of my projects while I was there was actually reviewing the anaesthesia for the Strabosky horses that they have, which is these original kind of wild horses, . And, from, you know, from the Mongolian steppes and not many anesthesia's on them, they're pretty wild, they don't react like a normal horse to anaesthesia, and, and we were looking at, you know, what was successful, what hadn't been successful in the past and trying to come up with a new protocol, .

Yeah, as well as, you know, global pandemics and interesting chats from virologists while we were there about avian influenza and swine flu, a big swine flu pandemic going on while I was there back in 2010, and everyone was worried about, you know, evolving variants coming out of Mexico and projections and, and also avian influenza was brewing, you know, the H5N1 original one, brewing at that time too. Yeah. I remember I opened or I moved my practise in 2000 and.

1020, yeah, it was 2009, I think it was, and there was quite a bad, I think it was avian, but it might have been swine flu that was going through at that time as well and I got quite sick just before the opening actually and had to drag myself out of bed to to go to it and of course our whole attitude towards pandemics has changed because we're in the middle of an avian flu pandemic at the moment and obviously I've just had. 2 or 3 years in COVID and I suppose . We haven't learnt a lot of lessons, you know, that, that, that from things like Ebola and MERS, we weren't really as prepared as we should be for the coronavirus when it hits, were we?

No, I mean, I think, I think like all things with big governments is that no one wants to do the legwork to prepare for them until it's actually happened. And as we know with wildlife conservation is a classic example, you know, we all sit here and we watch, you know, elephant numbers decline, and cheetah numbers decline, and, you know, sea creatures, you know, whale numbers, well, some The whales are coming back, but, you know, all are with overfishing, and, and until we're in, you know, a desperate scenario, no one's going to want to intervene. And, and it costs, you know, the factor is it costs so much more to intervene at a later stage than if we intervened early, especially in terms of biodiversity loss and, and all that kind of stuff.

So, you know, it can be immensely frustrating working and and studying these examples of, of, of biodiversity loss. . Because it's not until it's catastrophic that people say actually we need to do something about it, and, and had they intervened earlier, 5, 10 years earlier, you, you know, you could have really made a big difference.

I think it was the same with the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001 where the government had cut back and cut back on veterinary investigation centres and so on, and then suddenly when it did hit, we didn't really have the infrastructure to cope with it and of course there was, you know, it cost. The livelihoods of a lot of farmers, but also billions and billions of pounds and this, this is the problem by not preparing in the good times and having that disaster management ready, is it? Well, there's a great story about that.

I think it's, it might be a myth, but basically someone had written the kind of disaster guide management to foot and mouth in the 1970s after the previous Big foot and mouth outbreak. And it lay, you know, unread on a shelf for 30 years, and, and so I think someone discovered it, you know, after the last foot and mouth outbreak and read it and it basically was a kind of noddy's guide to how to deal with the, with the, you know, another foot and mouth disease outbreak and, and, you know, we hadn't, no one had remembered it or read it or and, and, and I think had people been refreshed on the idea and understanding that, you know, maybe a lot of changes could have been . You know, made and, and interventions, you know, done earlier, but whether or not that's a true story or not, but it just, you know, it highlights a kind of historical repetition of these kind of things.

And again, you know, if there's a big enough gap between big outbreaks, the people who, who experience them, it's a bit like. You, you know, market shocks and changes we have in, in the finance sector, you know, if enough people, that's been too long since the last, you know, big decline, then, then we've lost that experience in the market within the veterinary sector of, of what to do in these events. And so new people come along, they don't really know and they've got to learn it every time.

Yeah, it's very frustrating it can be. I think that's almost another podcast, but I've just finished reading Donut Economics by Kate Raworth, who's an economist and very much saying actually the way that the economic system is is built is completely wrong because we have these boom and busts rather than accepting maybe now, you know, as a very mature economy that we're not gonna have huge amounts of growth, but we're going to steadily grow and and actually if we are, Obsessed with the money side and not with the welfare side, then we're we're not getting the balance right, because actually after a certain amount of money, It doesn't bring happiness, does it, and. I know sort of jumping on a little bit, this is really part of your experience having worked in the UK, done the masters, done a lot of locuming while you were doing the masters to sort of cover that.

You then started to also have some experiences working in Scandinavia. I think Norway was the first place. I think your wife is also, she's half Swedish.

Yes, yes. So, well, it started off, so my wife is half Swedish and her parents live in the south of Sweden, and, and we were kind of been talking over a number of years about maybe, you know, we have got young children now and, and maybe the opportunities of, growing a family in Scandinavia are maybe a better potentially than the UK, and yet, you know, my worry was I'm a UK vet, UK trained, I don't speak Scandinavian either Norwegian or Swedish, you know, how, how would that work? And I had a conversation, a friend of a friend basically got in contact with me who was running a veterinary clinic in, in Bergen in Norway, and we had a discussion, and they don't have a kind of locum industry in Scandinavia, per se, and.

And he wanted to understand how it worked in the UK and he understood there was a big locum industry in the UK and, and, and in Scandinavia, they have a real issue where they struggle to fill their summer months, particularly kind of May to September, because in Scandinavia, it's, it's kind of mandatory to give your employees, whatever type of organisation you work for a minimum of 3 consecutive weeks holiday between the 1st of June and the 31st of August. And many of the Scandinavian people save their entire annual holiday allowance and take it all at that part time, so they may be off for, for, you know, 4 or 6 weeks or even longer potentially over the summer months, . And the problem within Scandinavia is this, it, it happens to coincide with the peak amount of, of, of admissions to veterinary hospitals at that point, because everyone's at home, they're on holiday, it's a good time to take your dog or cat to get vaccinated, or, or if you're out and about running around, you know, there's a lot of outdoor activities with pets, you know, they might have, they have highs of, you know, injuries or, or quite commonly in Scandinavia in the summer months is, is snake bite injuries.

They have the European adder, and, and that's quite active at that time, so they see quite a lot of snake bites. So, The the clinic is busy at that point, but then staff numbers are low, and they wanted to see how it could work with with locums or temporary vets, and they wanted to originally try with English-speaking vets, because everyone really speaks very good English in Scandin in Scandinavian countries, and they asked if I'd go out and work there. So, So I saw a great opportunity to try a bit of Scandinavia to see what veterinary is like in, in, in, in Norway and packed my bags.

I had to do, took a bit of work, you know, understanding the legislation for getting licenced and, and whether, you know, luckily the VDS covered my, my professional indemnity insurance and, and all that kind of stuff. And then understanding taxes, had to chat to accountants and understand how it worked with being paid internationally. And then off I went and, and it was totally blown away, really.

You know, the clinic I worked in was, you know, custom built. It was huge. They had about, about, I think 20 vets working in the building, and they had everything from specialist orthopaedic surgeons, specialist soft tissue surgeons, they had specialist orographers.

They had even a whole team of lab technician. So it was a bit like having IEX in the room next door, and, and, and it was, so I suppose it was akin to working in the UK in a referral hospital, but doing first opinion care. And so for me as a vet who's, you know, would like to practise veteran to a really good high standard, lots of my cases that I see, particularly in London, end up being referred off to, you know, tertiary referral hospitals.

So I rarely get to see cases all the way to the end, especially with the complex ones, which are interesting. So with, whereas there they rarely refer anything out. So everything would just be managed in-house, you know, and, and an orthopaedic surgeon, if I needed an assessment, I'd go over and knock on his door and say, can you look at these X-rays or look at this image?

And, and they had, they were equipped with very high standards, so CT and MRI and even though I wasn't able to interpret those images myself, I'm not skilled MRI or CT in a radiographer, they would have people that could do that and instantly come up with reports and say, look, this is good and yeah, we can fix this tomorrow. And, and the, and the flip side of that, of course, was that in Scandinavia there's a very high level of insurance, about 90% insurance level in Scandinavia, so. I wasn't having to have those conversations of should we do an X-ray or should we do an ultrasound or should we do this particular blood or I'm worried about this, you know, you know, which of course is very common in the UK.

Whereas there they say, look, insurance, if it needs to be done, do it. Obviously they're not expecting you to, to spend money unnecessarily, but it just means that you're able to offer a very high standard of care, so gold standard of veterinary care to these cases, which was, you know, very fulfilling as a vet, to have that opportunity. I know Aria was one of the first, companies to do insurance, and I think you're right, in Sweden it's something like 90%.

Of animals are insured, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, very high levels, and it's affordable for some reason, you know, I don't know how they keep it, but it seems to be affordable for the majority of people who have pets, and, and they're happy to pay the insurance and so it makes the whole management of complex cases much easier, . Because there isn't so much of an issue about finances.

Yeah, no definitely. It was a very good experience. And the other thing that I loved when I was, when I was out there, of course, is, as I'm sure, you know, you've travelled out to Bergen before, the Norwegians are totally mad when it comes to outdoor activities.

So, you know, a lovely thing would happen at the end of an evening of work, you know, I'd be pretty tired, end of the day, 6 o'clock or so, 5 o'clock, and they'd say, what are you doing now, you know, what's your plan? And I'd be pretty knackered and I'd say, well, you know, I'll probably go home and cook something and watch a bit of Netflix and, and go to bed. And you know, it's the summer month, so it's daylight until, yeah, 12 o'clock at night, really, and it only start for a couple of hours.

And they'd say, no, no, we've got to go, we've got to do something. Let's go, let's go whale watching. And, and you're like, what, whale watching?

And they'd say, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, come on, I'll pick you up, pick you up. So they'd drive me off, you know, to, to the shoreline and we'd jump in a couple of canoes and start or kayaks and start kayaking out, out of the field, you know, to the open sea. And I'm there, you know, looking back and, and, and going, well, what, you know, what.

We're paddling out a bit, I was a bit like, so, what happens if I fall in, you know, and they said, well, can you kayak? And I'm a bit like, well, you probably should have asked that before I started, but but, but yes, just about. And they said, well, don't fall in.

They said don't because it's a very long swim home. And at that point we're pedalling out into, you know, paddling out to the open sea, to look for whales and, and, and that kind of experience, you know, repeated itself whether it was hiking or, you know, kayaking out to the little islands amongst some of the fjords there and having a beer and a barbecue, you know, it was really common, you know, 4 or 5 of you would go out kayak or canoe out. And then someone would pull out a barbecue from their backpack and you know, and a few some have some sausages and some other things and a couple of beers and, and you'd sit there, you know, until, you know, 1112 o'clock at night just chatting and drinking and and having a nice time and it was a really magical experience.

I really, really, really enjoyed it. The the Scandinavians are well known in in the league tables for happiness, aren't they? They, they seem to do really well there.

It's just a, a very relaxed and I think family orientated way of life, isn't it? Yeah, I think, I mean just culturally, they seem to have a really strong idea about work-life balance, you know, very different to, you know, the other extreme, which would be kind of USA American style, which is work, work, work, and your job is everything. Scandinavia is very much, you know, and, you know, it's reflected whether you're in Denmark or Norway or Sweden, you know, you very much work to live rather than live to work.

And so, you know, Strict working conditions, you know, very, very strict within, within the working regulations for employment law is, you know, an eight-hour working day, you know, and within 1 hour lunch break included in that, so it's a 9-hour day in total, and you have these, these breaks and, and I'm sure people will have heard in Scandinavia, particularly in Sweden, something called FICA. Now FICA is a, is a kind of institution within Sweden, and, and, and coffee breaks within Norway too. But, but, you know, if you were to have a job and, and you didn't take your FICA break at 11 o'clock, for example, I mean, there would be, everyone would stop, there'd be a riot, you know, everyone would stop down tools and stop working because FICA is, is basically half an hour coffee break and, and pastries at about 11 o'clock in the morning, 10:30, 11, and you're expected to participate and you're expected to chat to your colleagues and you're not allowed to talk about work, and it's a way of communicating and meeting people and And so, and then again, so you get the FIA, you get your lunch break, and then you get your strict, you know, finish time and, and, and Norway or Sweden was the same because I've worked in both, you know, if I'm still there at 6 or 5 minutes past 6 when I should have finished at 6, people start to look at you like you're very strange, and they say, why are you, why are you still here?

And you're like, well, you know, I'm busy, I've got cases, you know, I've got lots to get on and, and in the UK you're just expected to keep working until it's all finished. And, and there they go, no, no, give your cases to someone else. It's finished.

You're not, you don't have to work. There's no expectation to, to carry on working. I mean, obviously if you've got interesting cases and you want to stay, then sure, but, but there's no expectation, and they, and they very much think that you should be taking your time off and going home to be with your family or having a break or resting and.

It was such a nice attitude and that's really ingrained from a cultural level. It's not just a, you know, a particular work practise within the clinic. It doesn't matter whether it's veterinary or a doctor or, you know, engineers or whatever kind of profession you're in, you know, break times are sacrosanct, lunchtime is sacrosanct, and finishing on time is sacrosanct.

It's a very healthy attitude, I think, and I think a lot that we could learn from. Sure. I think you're right, Hugo, because it, you know, we need.

We at Webinar vet talk a lot about sustainability, and obviously I'm talking about environmental sustainability, but actually what's just as important or, or almost as important is that we actually have a sustainable veterinary profession and if we push people too hard and they say this isn't fun anymore, they leave and it's such a shame because I think it's, you know, I've been a vet for over 30 years and I've really enjoyed my career in all the things, you know, in clinical plus. We've just, been 13 years as webinar vets, so that was founded about 13 years ago when nobody knew what a webinar was, as I was saying to people during the pandemic, we've been planning for the pandemic for the last 10 years, just nobody realised. So maybe slightly better than the government, but there we go, it's probably not difficult.

But I think it, you know, it's so important to have a sustainable profession, isn't it, and. Having that ability to, to take that time off, you know, I've certainly had people talk about not being, being too busy that they couldn't urinate. I mean, that cannot be right, you know, it's just simply a recipe for cystitis and other diseases.

So, having those breaks and in fact, you know, again I, I really try and encourage people business to take breaks, but it is part of our culture, oh no, we haven't got time. Where it's actually so important to sit down and have those coffee breaks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think it's our sense of self, you know, by being busy we feel important, you know, we're like, oh, we're very important we're busy and you know, and I can't talk to you and I can't do this, but, but for a sustainable work life balance, it's just, and it's certainly within the veterinary industry, particularly where it is stressful, you know, you are dealing with, you know, challenging circumstances with clients with sick pets who are are worried and, and, and there's high levels of stress and anxiety. You know, that anxiety and stress does feed into us and, and how we manage that and and of course, you know, as veterinary has become more, more complicated, there's more, you can do a lot more with it, you know, the clients expect you to be at this very, very high level of knowledge constantly and it is a very stressful, you know, if you don't have the answer straight away, you know, your clients have all googled everything, you know, they know almost as much as you about, about a particular disease, . And, and, and, and so it can be a very stressful, high intense, profession to be in, and it's very important that we take, take time, we take a break, and, and time management is key.

It's got to be key. And if it's, you know, if you're forced into 5 or 10 minute consultations back to back all day without any break, you know, that's not a way to live, you know, from a career for a long, long term career. Sure, you can do it for a year, you can do it for 2 years, and then you burn out.

And then what do you do, you know, then you feel depressed and. And you don't want to work with the veterinary career again and, and we're losing these very high skilled individuals out of, out of the profession and we have to change, because it seems mad that we're training vets up 56 years in university, you know, these are very high achieving individuals, very bright, putting into clinical practise, you know, and it's a bit like, you know, Cannon fodder, you know, the first, you know, couple of years are stressful anyway because you're learning really the job. And then if you can't find a sustainable way of, of, of working after that, then of course you're gonna leave and and it's a huge loss to the profession.

So, I see, I mean, so from my opinion when I went out and worked in Scandinavia, I just saw that. It's a different way of working, which for me was more sustainable and, and yes, I was working, you know, for a big corporate and yet the corporates there are not the big monsters that they seem to be here in the UK. They seem to have, and I think probably just because the, the law around working hours is so strict and culturally it's all ingrained is that they're not able to lengthen day length of, of working hours and not pay you anymore and and you know, get you to do extra shifts unnecessarily and.

So, you know, it is a more sustainable culture, and I think that's hugely beneficial, and I think you've got a lot to learn from that. And if we can incorporate, so for success for me, when I, when I send vets to go out and work in Scandinavia myself is, is if I have a vet who's gone out and had a good time and experienced a really fun working environment. And then come home.

That is success for me. I don't mind whether they're there for, you know, 2 months, for 6 months, or they move permanently. It's about, can you take some of those, some of those principles from Scandinavian culture and, and bring them home and incorporate them into your everyday working life because that's the only way we're gonna, we're going to change our profession, I think.

I think you're right, we have so much to learn from them, they seem to be, you know, they have quite high taxes in in Scandinavia, in Norway and, and in Sweden, but they understand that they get the service for it, so their, their health service, I think, runs efficiently, they have, you know, good teacher student numbers and things, so. There's definitely an advantage whereas I think in the UK we we seem to be a bit obsessed with low tax and low tax means that we haven't got as much money to spend on public service and, and then we suffer in those areas, don't we? Yeah, it's really interesting.

So, you know, trying to compare salaries from the UK and Scandinavia, you know, vets always talk to me and they say, well, in the UK I'm being offered, you know, X, you know, 50, 60, 70,000 pounds, whatever it is, and then you go to Scandinavia, and this is for a permanent role rather than temporary, but as a permanent role, you know, they might be offered 25% less or 20% less equivalent. And, and they go, well, you know, I don't think I can make the move because it's not affordable. And I say, well, hang on a sec, you know, listen, look, what are the numbers at the, at the end of the month, you know, what are you actually, what are you spending it on?

And, and look at these other factors, you know, so in Scandinavia, you know, the cost of childcare is very low. You know, I've got young children myself, you know, I've got two young kids and we are spending, you know, a fortune on childcare, you know, equivalent rates if I'm spending, let's say I'm spending 1500 pounds to 2000 pounds a month on childcare, full-time childcare. You know, in Scandinavia, the equivalent is about 200 pounds a month, because there's so much state support for it.

And, and, and other things so that you, you know, the pension is very generous in Scandinavia, the state pension, so you don't really need to save for a pension, whereas in the UK you, you, you do need to add. So after your taxed income, you're putting money into a pension. The cost of accommodation, housing, you know, unless you're living in Stockholm or in, in Oslo, you know, you can buy a big house.

4 bedroom house with, with, with land for relatively very little, whereas in the UK we're really kind of squeezed in on land and, and land is expensive. So you're not paying a huge, you know, mortgage costs, you're not paying childcare costs, you know, medical infrastructure, medical is free. You pay in Sweden, you pay £10 every time you visit your GP, and that's it.

And, and so there are huge benefits and And the state is very supportive. And so we talk about high taxes in Scandinavia, but, but the benefits are so great that it, they offset each other. So that when you come to the end of the month, effectively your salary from a, from a veterinary job or whatever job in Scandinavia, is a pocket money, because that's your spending money, whereas in the UK, you know, you get it, you pay your tax on it, and then you have to then start savings for childcare, university, all this other stuff for your, for your own family, .

And also the maternity benefits for young families, and we should probably touch on this because, you know, a lot of our industry is, is, is, is female and you know, in Scandinavia, you know, a standard 18 months maternity leave is, is quite common, full pay, and then you have a kind of, half pay feeding you back into, back into work, encouraging you back to work. So it's, you know, there's huge support for working mothers, as well as, you know, cheap childcare. So, You know, it's very common for someone who's got 1 or 2 or 3 kids to, to still be working, in Scandinavia, and, and that's, that's hugely important.

Hm. And obviously you've done the locuming for a bit, but then saw that this was really beneficial to you and we've sort of jumped ahead a little bit. You, you obviously founded Nordic locum, so when when was that actually founded?

So, well I, I worked in Norway and then I went and did the same job again the following summer in Sweden and, and then went back to Norway and, and. You know, I, I wrote up my experiences in the veterinary press at the time. The clinics that I was dealing with were said, Look, Hugo, this has worked out really, really well.

We really want more vets like you to come out and work for us in Scandinavia. So I had these clinics saying they needed more people. I had colleagues of mine getting in contact saying, Hugo, amazing what you did in Sweden and Scandinavia.

We would love to experience the same thing. How do we, how do we do that? So initially, I just was helping people, you know, with, do the paperwork and I was saying, well, this is what I've done and you need to contact this person and you need to do that.

And then it started getting a bit of momentum and the clinic saying, well, you go, have you got anyone else, you can send us, you know, send us our way. And so quickly I realised that there was an opportunity there to, to help people and, and so I started doing it just as a side job, my side hustle, as I call it, you know, while still working clinically, and I was just working out of my spare bedroom just with a laptop and just trying to keep track of people and helping them. And over time it just snowballed, it just grew and grew and grew.

We had more, more vets interested, more clinics, you know, by word of mouth, like everything within the veterinary sector, it's, you know, very common is word of mouth. So more and more people getting on board. And, and so my own job just got busier and busier, and I was trying to manage young kids, clinical work, and, and Nordic locums, and we started Nordic locums properly and I think it was probably like 2016, was probably when I started it.

And. Yeah, and it's just grown and I took the decision in July, or just a bit before that I couldn't maintain that level of work of Nordic locums and kids and clinical work. So I elected to step back from the clinical work in July of last year and focus full time on, on this as well as, you know, more childcare, you know, spending more time with the kids, and it's worked out really well, and so, you know, we're very busy, you know, lots of interested people, lots of interested clinics, and, and it's just about helping.

That's, you know, Overcome some of those hurdles and, and, and the two big hurdles I'd say probably, you know, reticence to try it. Oh, we've got a cat to the cats at some point might join us. That's fine.

I'd say the biggest hurdle is rest is people are nervous about trying something new, you know, going abroad, it is quite scary. You know, what's it going to be like working in a different country? Is it, is the language a problem, you know?

Do they have the same drugs, you know, all this kind of stuff. So a lot of my job initially when I'm chatting to vets is talking to them about my experiences out there and, and, and how great it was and how much I enjoyed it. And then the second part of the job really is then saying, right, if you're interested, I've got clinics that'll take you, let's get you, you know, all the paperwork approved so that you're there working legally and happily, and, and there aren't any problems.

And then, and then once they're in, in situ working, you know, we're here as a kind sounding board or, or, you know, just advisory role to help them. If they ring me up and say, Hugo, I don't understand about this or I'm having trouble with that, or can you help me find some accommodation, you know, you know, that's what we're here to help them with and, and, and sort out all the problems. And because we've been doing it for a number of years now, we've kind of We've had, we, we've heard most of the questions, so we, you know, it's not uncommon to hear the same thing over and over and say, oh, that's right, we had this before, or other things often vets say, oh, have you got someone I could talk to who's worked in that place before that, you know, can give me some pointers and, you know, and absolutely, you know, I'll contact them, send them an email and say, would you speak to this person, I'll have a conversation on the phone.

So we very much see ourselves as an organisation that that holds vets by the hand and leads them to, to the opportunity of working abroad. And whether it's just for a few months, you know, a couple of months, a couple of years, whatever they want, you know, we, we're here to try and help them get that opportunity, and it's a great one. Suppose I have to ask the question, Hugo, has there been any any romances or marriages through Nordic locums?

Has that happened yet? Yeah, there has, there has actually, not uncommon, you know, obviously, you know, they, the, the, the clinics, there's a lot of women in the veterinary industry, vice versa. So the, the, the Swedish clinics are very keen for male vets, as, as is everywhere, I think.

But we have had a couple of vets who've gone out and, and fallen in love and, and, and then decided to stay there, and that's been great. And, and a really nice, nice thing to see, yeah, absolutely, although we're not selling it as a dating agency, but there's a touch of that going on. Well, inevitably when you're working very closely with colleagues, in, in that environment in in a nice place, and again, a lot of the, the, the kind of vets that want to go out are vets in the age group of, you know.

2 or 3 years qualified to kind of 10 years qualified and that age range probably puts them in the age of kind of 25 to 35. So, so, and often they're single or, or, you know, aren't really, they aren't married with kids, so they have the opportunity to go abroad, and to work a bit and, and inevitably you're going to find people that, that you like and, and, and spend time with and, and hopefully that leads to something. But yeah, if it does magic, if it doesn't, then it's also fine too.

You know, take the experience I think change is something that the profession, you know, has been known to be quite conservative, so I suppose it is. It, you know, it can be difficult, you're going somewhere where you're not going to speak the language, and yet, as you said, you know, as I've certainly experienced, the, the Scandinavians speak exquisite English, don't they? Yeah, yeah, I mean, embarrassingly good English, you know, it's very common in when I'm doing a consultation, you know, out there, you know, I always ask them at the beginning or or in the waiting room, are you happy if we talk in English and.

And it's really funny because often, you know, they might be a bit nervous and they say, oh, not really, and then you're like, OK, so then you have a nurse or a colleague do some of the translation, and then, and at the end of the consult, I say, like, do you understand what we've talked about and I chat to the, my nursing assistant and I say, you know, can you just check? And they'll reply in fluent English, you know, almost better, better English than me, and they do understand it totally. They just.

Nervous about speaking English, because, you know, it's the older generation, I mean the younger generation speak fluent English, so, you know, anyone under the age of 50, you're not gonna have any problems with at all in terms of language and communication. Maybe some of the older ones in the more rural areas, you know, are just more reluctant to, but they, they understand everything. So us to also pick up some of the words so that we can speak to them as well.

So presumably over a couple of summers you pick up a bit of Swedish and. Danish or Norwegian. Yeah, I, I often say that you talk Swinglish, you know, when I'm working in Sweden because sure the first couple of weeks are a bit of a challenge, you know, the computer system often is either in Norwegian or Swedish and so it's kind of challenging to navigate through the various different panels, .

But you quite quickly pick up the different words for various different, you know, X-ray, ears, eyes, you know, all the kind of anatomical questions quite names quickly, come together, and then often it's about learning the pronunciation of them because they're written in a certain way and then you, you say it to them and they look at you like you're a bit strange, and then you say, no, no, no, this word, and they go, oh, and then they teach you the pronunciation. So, it is fun and, and yeah, and it's a great, just a great opportunity to, to, you know, experience working in a different culture and you know, and. The nicest thing I find with, with vets that come on board to us is that they say, look, I really want to travel and, and, and, and be somewhere, but I don't want to just be there on holiday.

I want to really understand the culture and, and get under the skin of it a bit. And, and I think working in an environment like that is great because you can be there for a few months and, and really experience a day to day working life of some of these people and, and, and, and, you know, how good it can be. So, Hugo, why do you think vets are coming to Nordic vets?

So, so I mean, the majority of our vets who come to approach us are either locums themselves or looking for a bit of a change in their career. Perhaps they might be a bit dissatisfied with their current role and they're really just looking for a bit of adventure, you know, it's very popular for vets who want just to try working in a different country, just get a bit of opportunity to work abroad, you know, a bit of a cultural experience, a cultural exchange, really. To try something different and, you know, people come to us for a couple of months.

I mean, on average, they're coming for between 2 and 6 months working, in the Scandinavian countries, that's a really good opportunity. And, and many of our vets, you know, having been out to experience working in Scandinavia, come back, you know, year on year. So it's not just a single one-off thing, but, but it's particularly, vets, you just want to change the scene and look.

For venture. And also more recently, obviously following the changes with Brexit, many European vets who would have previously worked in the UK are now finding that quite a bit harder because of the visa and and licencing require change. So we have now a lot of vets that come on board to us and say, look, I really like the level of care and, and, and standard that the UK is, is able to provide for, for, for, for vets and pets.

You know, what is there alternatives, and Scandinavia has a very high quality of care they're able to offer good professional development for vets, and, you know, high levels of insurance and good levels of pay. So, so quite a natural kind of thing for, for EU vets to come on board, through to us that way. What are the clinics looking for, Hugo, have they got particular requirements as well?

Yeah, I mean, so the clinics are not looking for new grads, really. I mean, like any business, you know, what they want is a, is a well experienced vet. So kind of, if you've got 3 to 5 years of clinical experience, you know, you've seen a bit of everything.

So you're a good general all-round first opinion vet, . They, they particularly like vets that are comfortable with out of hours and emergency critical care. So, you know, a day vet, night vet, weekend vet, you know, that's what they really like.

Obviously, a good, you know, a good level of English, spoken English, spoken and written English is also, is essential because it all of it's going to be in English. You don't need to speak Swedish or Norwegian, or Finnish or, or Danish, you just, but good English is, is, is absolutely important. And, and, you know, our vets are looking to, you know, ideally stay anywhere up to 6 months for a temporary role, or, or longer if they want a permanent run too.

So, so ability to commit to 3 to 6 months' work, particularly over the summer period, so anywhere between kind of May and September, but we are supplying vets all year round. And the clinics, yeah, they just want good, you know, all-round first opinion vets. They're not expecting specialists.

I mean, obviously if you are doing a certificate in something that's really beneficial, but a good first opinion vet is what they're looking for. And usually more likely small animal than mixed practise. Absolutely.

I mean, the, the majority of the clinics that we work with are hospitals. These are large hospitals, 10 to 20 vets working in the building at any one time. So they're busy, you know, big first opinion, custom built hospitals, a bit like working in a referral centre in the UK or equivalent, but, but more kind of doing first opinion care.

Yeah. And quite commonly in the summertime, there's a lot of new grads from, from, you know, Sweden and Norway as well working, a lot of the students start work in, you know, May or June. And so there's, there's the opportunity where a lot of them need some help, you know, they come to you and they say, Hugo, can you help me with this radiograph or, you know, I've got this clinical case, and, and I think it might be, and they very often choose a kind of You know, the most bizarre, you know, diagnosis, and uncommon diagnosis or rare, and you think, well, it's possible, but maybe I like to say common things are common, so let's look at, look at this and apply first principles and see.

So there's a little bit of teaching involved as well for some of the new grads, which is why you'd struggle if you're a new grad, you know, applying for these positions. No, that's great, that that makes sense and . For accommodation, is that something that you sort out or does the practise sort out, or do they have to sort out themselves?

Yeah, so the clinic will find accommodation for all the vets. That's quite normal because they know what's close by, what works in terms of accessing the clinic and stuff, and it really depends on whereabouts you are. If you're, you know, if you're in the big central cities, so like Stockholm or Oslo and stuff, then accommodation, you know, is a bit more expensive, and, and generally the clinics will find it, but they ask the vets to contribute a little bit towards the cost, but it's not expensive in terms of just, you know, rental, you know, a little bit of, you know, gas, electricity, or whatever it is.

So very affordable, but vets, obviously, quite, quite a few of my vets, vets bring their families, so they might say, right, we're coming for a summer, and we're going to come for 3 months, and I'm going to bring my family and the kids. And at that point, then, you know, you can look for Airbnbs and stuff like that, or, or the clinic will help you find a larger accommodation if that's what you want. But yeah, the clinic always help that, there's no problem at all.

And again, if you're staying for a longer period of time, you're going to stay for 3 or 6 months. We always try and recommend. Our vets maybe drive themselves and make a bit of a road trip of it if they're coming from either the UK or another European country, spend a couple of days travelling to get there because it's an adventure.

It's fun, you know, make it, make it what it is, rather than trying to rush, you know, headlong just to get from A to B, whereas vets who are staying for short periods of time, you know, it is possible to fly, but we try and encourage people to drive where possible and try and minimise their. Their carbon footprint where we can, for sure. And, and, and also the other thing to think about is that many of our vets are coming back year on year, you know, so you develop a good relationship with the clinic and, and then you, you know, you come back for a few months or a few weeks later on in the year, and that's very easy to manage and to do, for sure, and I really encouraged.

In terms of pay, the other thing we probably didn't talk about necessarily was in pay and locum rates, and what people are being paid and what to expect, . I suppose in for locum pays, you know, we try and manage that, that the, the pay in Scandinavia's benchmarks are similar to what you get in the UK as a locum. In Scandinavia, they tend to pay per hour rather than per day.

So in the UK it's quite common to have a day fixed day rate for that might be 10 or 11 or 12 hour day, whereas in Scandinavia, they have an 8 hour day, but it's paid per hour. So, so we, we tend to benchmark. Get around the 50 pounds an hour mark.

So, so in terms of euros for an eight-hour day, most of our temporary vets are earning about €400 per day as a kind of average back of the envelope type calculation. And whereas, you know, full-time staff are earning probably, you know, on average for base pay, they caught talk about base pay, they're talking about maybe €4000 to €5000 per Month as a kind of base pay for, for a permanent vet, because you kind of rough idea of salary range and expectations for those. Yeah.

A lot of the clinics like vets who are able to operate surgically on their own. So obviously with nursing support. So, so that's probably key as well.

So not only do they have a bit of out of hours, night, night experience, but, you know, could handle things like a pyometra or a splenectomy. Or you know, caesarean section or a foreign body, something like that. I mean, obviously, you know, they're not expecting you to be a referral level soft tissue surgeon, but, but being able to handle, you know, that's one thing quite decent GP isn't it really?

Exactly. One thing that's quite interesting is in Scandinavia until quite recently, it was illegal to do routine neutering in cats and dogs. And one thing we haven't touched on is that they saw it as a mutilation, didn't they?

They saw it as a mutilation and although the law has changed in the last few years, you will still see quite a lot of pyometra cases. And so if I'm working a weekend shift in Scandinavia, it's not uncommon for me to see 3 or 4 pyometras come in requiring surgery. And a lot of the clinics don't, if you're working there, they don't really want to have to pay another vet to be a backup surgeon for you.

So in an ideal world, you know, you're able to crack on, you have a fab. Nurses, the nurses are amazing anaesthetists and, and, and I mean they're just so experienced, but they need someone that can do the cutting and, and if you're that kind of vet that can handle a pie and a splenectomy then and the odd occasional, you know, scary GDV, then that's fine. And obviously if you need help, you know, they will bring people in to help you.

That's not, that's not there, but ideally they don't want to have to pay someone to be on backpack don't want to have somebody coming in all the time for a basic pie or something. Well, exactly. So, and again for our European colleagues, particularly the younger ones who are maybe 3 to 5 years qualified, often don't have a lot of surgical experience because it's until they're a bit older.

And so for our European colleagues who don't have that social experience, it's a case of, you know, maybe people who are 7 to 8 years qualified who've now started to become more senior and do more surgery, you know, that, that's probably more helpful. Yeah. Hugo, if anybody's listening to the podcast and wants to know a bit more details, can we.

Take your details or can you shut them out now and we'll also put them underneath in the the sort of. Yeah, absolutely. So, so Nordic locums, you can look at Nordic locums.com or info at Nordic locums or Hugo at Nordic locums.com, any of those emails you can, you can shout out and and email's the best, best to get in touch or look at our website, there's a contact list within our website that you can, that you can send me an email and and we'll very happy to talk and very happy to set up a call or a video call and just.

Chat through, you know, opportunities and, and I've got people who call me up and they say, look, I'm thinking of going in a couple of years' time, or I'm thinking of moving, and I'm always happy to talk to people and, and, and help them in any way, shape, or form, you know, whether they come on board through us or whether they just want some advice, I'm always happy to chat because, you know, I really feel that, you know, we should really be trying to promote, you know, opportunities for, for colleagues to, to improve their welfare and any opportunity, I'm really happy to talk. Hugo Tusunak, thank you so much for your words of wisdom. It's, it's been really great to, to chat today and best of luck with the continued success and growth of the business.

Well, thank you very much, An it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and to meeting your cat. I didn't catch your cat's name by the way. Well, I'm, he's not my cat, I'm his part of his staff, as you know.

And it's buddy, he, he adopted us during the pandemic. Right. No, he's just, he's just here sitting on my knee as we as we speak.

He is quite a character, he's about 17 now. So I think he basically came here as a retirement home because it's a bit quieter than where he came from, so. He's enjoying himself, aren't you buddy?

And his eyes and teeth are all in good condition, I hope. Well, I have to say, his teeth, he doesn't have many left. It took me a while to realise that er if he did bite me, it was really just a bad suck rather than a than a bite.

So yeah, he's he's lost quite a lot of his teeth over time. But he's, he's coping, he's doing well and enjoying retirement, aren't you, but. Oh good.

Oh, we'll send them my regards for sure. It's been an absolute pleasure, Antony. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Hugo. Thanks everyone for listening. This has been another episode of Vet Chat.

See you on another episode soon. Take care everyone.