Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. I'm really looking forward to today's episode because I am joined by not one but by two guests who are gonna be delving into the topic of mentoring in the veterinary field, with a particular focus on female mentors. So before we get started, I'll hand over to our guests, to tell us a little bit about themselves.

Over to you, Eli. Oh, Katherine, thank you so much for having us. It's, it's really kind and wonderful to be here.

Oh God, how long have you got? I always find it the hard part. But yeah, I'm a kind of squiggly career advocate, I think is the best way to describe what I do.

So an equine vet by trade, but also delve into so many other sectors of, of veterinary. From education to research, entrepreneurial stuff and more, and currently sit as the founder of Vet Staygo Diversify, which is a global careers community helping us all to find our fit and our kind of vet happy using, you know, our veterinary passport. And I'm really, really delighted to be joined by my co-director and Melanie from across the pond in Canada as well.

And I'm Melanie Barham. I'm also veterinarian and also a squiggly careers advocate, I guess, although that term is newer to me, but I've I really, I love that term and I think it's so great to, and I think it's just fantastic to have those have kind of a a career of words to put around what it is like to change careers and change paths and see opportunities as opposed to see things very finitely. So I lived just outside of Toronto in Canada and and I've joined VSGD last September formally, but we've worked together on many projects before, so because I had separately a a community and business in Canada, but we merged together, we came together, because we don't like to use the word merge, but we came together, to work together more closely and, and now we, now we're kind of all one company and we've, and we're looking, we really want to support people's careers in all the different directions you can go in.

My background is also from Eine originally, equine performance force practise, and then, but have taken a number of different turns including doing working in surveillance, in laboratory, consulting, working in not for profit and charity, and now working with BSGD, so yeah, so that, so lots of different, I guess lots of different roles. Yeah. Brilliant.

Oh, that's wonderful, thank you both, that's great. So, mentoring, where should we start? Should we start by, did you want to just explain a little bit about what mentoring is and what would make a good mentor?

Gonna take that one, Melanie? Sure. So it's hard to be the first person on the hot seat, I think.

So I think for me like mentoring has really become this for me sort of this buzzword that I, I think it's I think it's important to really consider what's what's part of it and what isn't part of it, I guess. So, you know, everybody says, oh, my practise is great mentorship, but what does that actually look like? And I think there can be varying different definitions for different people and for different stages of your career.

When we think about mentoring as a strict definition, I think really we're looking at you know, we're really looking at somebody who's able to advise and, and ask you, ask you great questions and be there to support you, but other roles that other roles that we often confuse with those are advocacy and sponsorship and coaching, . Which are slightly different roles where you might be asking as a sponsor for somebody to somebody to step forward and put you forward for projects or put you forward for growth, or advocacy where somebody is going to advocate for you in a workplace and say, you know, Melanie would be great for this position or Melanie, you know, Melanie is that project is Melanie's done a great job on this project and sing your praises. Versus maybe somebody who maybe a coach who is going to take a different role to where they're really not going to be advising you on things and offering their own advice.

They're going to be asking you questions, and they don't necessarily have to have had the same experiences as you. So, I think I'll pass it over to you cause I know you have a great depth of experience in this area too, but that's sort of what I think of. No, there's not much more to add to that.

I think, it's just, it's just lovely. I think mentorship is very much about, let's, let's do this together. Let's, let's help each other together to do this.

And we often think about it in a traditional sense that there's someone more senior or more elevated, that supports someone that's less. And actually, it works both ways. I think that's really, really important to remember, that, it, it's not necessarily hierarchical.

It's about where two people can actually come together to support a common goal. Or common purpose as well, for, for a period of time that can last just for a coffee or could last 20 years, you know? So it's, it's a, it's a beautiful, fluid way of, of, of support, but like Melanie says, different, but there's overlap often between those other, other types of support which we've mentioned.

Thank you. No, that's great. It's interesting.

And why do you think it's so important to have Female mentors in the workplace in particular. I'll let you take that one first. Well, I think you, you cannot really be what you cannot see.

So I think it's incredibly important to have individuals, if you're aspiring to be, or go in a certain direction, to have people like yourself, and part of being like yourself is to see. You know, to see your gender amongst loads and loads and loads and loads of other, important diversity metrics, right? And I know, Mel, you know, you made this really good point, we were chatting earlier, you know, 50% of the world is women, right?

But how much are represented in those leadership, and those places of influence and power, but I'll let Mel continue on that note. Yeah, I guess for me I think for I think for me if you don't, you know, if if whether you're male or female and you're looking for a mentor, I think that if you're if you only have an option to have a specific demographic as your mentor, then you're probably missing out on some really great viewpoints because we all experience the world so differently depending on where we've come from our socioeconomic background or where we might fit in our, you know, how we might view the world is very, very different. So I think You know, if you're, if you're, you know, I think it's a shame too when people, when people say, oh, I've got to, you know, I've got to have a female mentor because I'm a female, or I can only have a female mentor because I'm a, I can't have a, I can't have a female mentor because I'm a, I'm a male or something like that.

I think that's, I think that's a real down it's a real, I don't know, I guess just a misstep or a missed opportunity to really experience all the different opportunities through leadership and all the different viewpoints that could be offered to you. And I, I really feel like, you know, mostly in my career I've had a variety of mentors that have been from different Different parts of life. And so it's probably, you know, as as Ebony says, it could just be a coffee or it could be a really long standing relationship, but I will often go to people who have had a specific, you know, have specific experience in an area for a specific advice as it because they might have had a really, they might have had that that experience where somebody else may not have had that experience.

Like, for example, if somebody came to me and asked me about what it's like to be a person of colour, gosh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, that would be really, I wouldn't know because that's not my lived experience. So it's important to have different, different opportunities. I think that lived experience is, is really key there, isn't it?

And there's so many things that, that the female goes through that a male doesn't loads of different, physiological, biological life stages as well, and that all influences our career, and how, and how we act and behave in the world. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a real important there, but like Mel says, it's not just, not just selecting gender as the one thing, it's, it's having that incredible diversity from cognitive, ethnic. You know, ill health, plus all those things are just so, so important.

And it's amazing how we can learn from each other that are different as well. So there's also that difference and that, and that, that, that it's great to have people on that same journey or same experience, but it's also superb to have mentors and, and support spaces where actually we can learn from each other's differences. Brilliant, thank you, absolutely.

So what, what would you say makes a great mentor? And you there now? Sure.

So I think, you know, for me, I think really it's about who is going to be able to help you with this specific issue that you're having potentially if it's a specific thing that you're trying to, trying to Achieve, but it's also about knowing yourself really well. And I think we, you know, we, we counsel people about this when we're looking at, where they should end up as a job or as an intern or, you know, what, what kind of or externships or placements you should take as a student, but it really fits as far as your whole life. Like, where do you learn best from what type Of people, and what do you need at this stage of your career?

Because what I, you know, what I needed or what you might need as a new graduate would be very different from someone who's trying to make it to the executive stage or trying to buy in, buy it in a practise, or any of those kind of things you're trying to, trying to make a big difference in organised leadership or something like that within organised veterinary medicine. So I think it's also about it's kind of identifying some of those base things that who, who have you learned best from and what traits did they have, and looking for those traits across a broad variety of people. So, you know, for example, maybe I maybe I really benefit from people who ask me more incisive questions.

As opposed to telling me exactly how to do things, or maybe, you know, in school or, or think about what bosses have been best for you. Who have you learned the best from? And I think asking that question is, is makes it easier to pick out the people who have those, those qualities.

So I don't know, if there's, I think the other pieces around, you know, I think I mentioned around, you really need to have different mentors for different parts of your life or different issues. So it's really about assembling this rainbow of people who you can turn to when you need it. And Ebony, I don't, you, you have some other word.

No, I love that cause it's like, I love being to the rainbow people, cause I think so often we, we place too much emphasis on individuals and no one can be like a Swiss Army knife of all your needs, you know? And we're so lucky that we, we work in a profession that is so global, so supportive. So empathetic, you know, so many people, are really touched and want to support and want to help.

You know, very rarely is it, is it a no. And if it is, it's usually just a no, not yet, because they're overwhelmed or they've got too many things on their plate. So, yeah, I think we're so lucky to be, to be in that, that environment.

And I think another really important thing to consider in that, in that conduit of that relationship is, is, you know, how you build trust. You know, and how you build curiosity between you. A lot of it is around the gut feeling.

Someone that's gonna be right for me not, might not be right for you, Katherine, and vice versa might not be right for Mel. So it's not about good or bad. It's about square pegs round holes.

And that's just as when we talk about recruitment, it's the same as, as, as mentorship as well. So it's finding that kind of jigsaw fit between individuals. Or groups Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll also add that it, I think it's important to understand that also that, you know, as you come away from a a first mentorship meeting, or, you know, your mentorship meetings, how do you know if it's a right fit for you?

I think it's not always about being comfortable, like they might ask you some questions or they might give you advice that feels uncomfortable, so you're directly going to them for advice or for support and for, you know, for their wisdom. So it is really important that to know that you're probably, you may not feel like happy and comfortable and like you're sitting in an easy chair at the end. Like sometimes they'll present you with a completely different viewpoint.

I wonder if you've considered this and you go away and you think, oh, I don't feel great about all these stuff. I'm gonna have to rethink everything but it's supposed to do because otherwise if you're comfortable, and that's the thing with growth, is that if you're comfortable, you're doing it wrong probably. Love that, absolutely true.

Yeah, so true. But having that kind of curiosity over judgement, I think is really important. You can still be challenged in a really kind way, without judgement.

And it's that, yeah, it's those, it's those perspectives through curiosity that I think, makes for, for good relationships. Did you know the webinar vet has a public community Facebook group? We want to ensure veterinary professionals have a place to stay in the loop with everything that's happening here at the Webinar vets.

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Brilliant. I was gonna ask actually, like, do you have any advice on the sorts of questions that you could ask a mentor, to get the best out of the relationship? Yeah.

That's a really, really good point because I think you can have two fantastic people, but it could be destined to fail, essentially, if you don't set yourself up for success. And so there's got to be quite a lot in that, in that planning and that, that almost those chemistry calls, are we the right people for one another? And I have a, I have a, a, a mantra I live by, which is expectations and just resentments waiting to happen.

So it's actually taking the time to co-agree, well, what does good look like? You know, what, what does this look like? And it's about co-agreeing that in terms of time frame, frequency, confidentiality, you know, all these things, boundaries, how we're gonna get in touch.

You know, all those things are really, really important to set up and trial, and you might get something wrong and tweak them, and that's great, but don't have expectations, co-agree on what success looks like. And I know Mel will add on to that as well. Yeah, I guess I've had a different experience with it, in that I, so I think I, I participated in both formal mentorship programmes and then kind of had them evolve naturally as well.

So I agree with Ebony that I agree with Ebony that about co-agreeing on like clarifying what you're gonna get out of it and those kind of things. Although I will also say that a good portion of my mentorship relationships have evolved naturally. So I, I think along the way, when you point that out.

I think there have been some clarification, although it hasn't been like a formal contract and like a handshake, like, will you be my mentor? Yes, yes, that sounds great. And like, we'll agree to meet every 2 weeks, and those are my goals, etc.

I think it has been more of like, but it has been me feeling out as well, like, hey, would you be comfortable meeting meeting every couple weeks? Or would you be comfortable meeting like every couple months or something like that? This has been really valuable for me.

Has it been valuable for you? . And so it's been kind of going, it's it's been testing those things out, so it's been more informal.

So just to let you know that it doesn't have to be like a formal contract, and I, I think a lot of us, I think that when I read about mentorship as well, I thought, oh, I guess I've been doing it wrong because I haven't, I didn't have these things, but I'm I probably did informally. So if you haven't and you or if you're setting up relationships and they've happened naturally, that's also OK. But again, that clarity around expectations is really, I think that's really good advice to make sure that you have felt that out.

Some other things that you might want to think about with questions, when I've met with very busy or very senior people, it is helpful to send a summary of your topic in advance or things that you are a particular problem you want to talk about, just so they can be prepared. So for example, if I was having a problem with a coworker, for example, I wondered if I could ask, you know, I'm having a situation with a coworker, I wondered if they could ask your advice and coaching or and and sort of I guess the other part to ask yourself is what kind of advice or what kind of situation do I want to set up. Sometimes you are not ready to hear a lot of like, you know, big feedback, or you might want to, we might need a more gentle approach to explore the issue together.

So it might, you might want to preface it with what you're actually looking for and what role you're hoping for them to play. And then having things like, you know, having some questions like, have you ever experienced anything like this? What would you advise in this scenario or what questions should I ask of this of the other person or what questions would help me, think about this differently?

Those might be questions to think about as you go into meetings and just to have in your back pocket. Brilliant, no, that's great, that's great advice, thank you. So if people are who are listening are considering looking for a mentor, do you have any suggestions or recommendations where they should head towards to find out more?

Oh, well, the world's an oyster really, and obviously we, we're, we're gonna plug our community because without realising over the last 6 years, that's what the community has done. Let Steger Diversify has become an online. Space people giving permission to provide support.

So vets they get diversify on Facebook and across websites which will give more details later. It's a really great place to kind of come and ask questions and, and find out what other people have been doing. We do career profiles and interviews and you can go and have a.

Look and be like, Oh, I'd love help from so and so. I'd love help from so and so. Most people, like I say, kind of giving full permission to support, because they've, you know, it's paying it forward.

But I also just think about all the communities you've ever been part of in your career. Everyone's come from a vet school. There's an amazing alumni attached to every vet school.

And that schools are really, really happy to help. And so are ex-students and, and people as part of that, you know, and your professors and people who've helped you with the research. But think about other online groups as well.

There's an online group for everything, which is fantastic. So you can usually go and find the exact niche that you want in terms of the types of support you need. We're really lucky across the globe.

We're that's full of incredible. Associations, even, you know, yourself, people at the webinar there. I mean, how many incredible individuals come and contribute to, to the webinar there and all of those conferences.

So think about the CPDs you've been on. Again, if people are up for being speakers and guests, and networkers, they're usually really up for for helping as well. And if they can't, they can often put you in contact with someone, someone who can.

And I must say, I've really, utilised my previous employers. I've never really left jobs because I didn't like them. I've either outgrown them or wanted to try something new, but those employers have been incredibly helpful in, in helping me in loads of different sectors, of my career, non-clinical, and clinical.

So actually I still use my. My boss, who I worked in TV production with before I became a vet, they still support me now in lots of presenting and hosting that I do. So I just think, keep, you know, keep your, keep your network warm because your old network can still help you, with your future kind of career.

And I don't know, Mel, if you want to add in some others as well. I think that's just great, yeah, yeah, you said I think it's also, yeah, it's whoever you see. I think for me it's often like when somebody walks in the room, it can sometimes be like a lightning rod where I think, gosh, I'd love to know them.

Like I can remember specific examples I'm like, wow, I'd love to know that lady, and I really, you know, and I think often, yeah, somebody says a lot of people are willing to. Have a coffee with you. And they may serve a role as just a, just a single meeting.

They might be too busy, you might not click, or they might just be, they might be a connector or conduit to somebody else. I will also say that in the research that I did around veterinary careers, that, most people when they said they ran into career difficulties, whether they stayed in practise or whether they left, most people turned to A support network of friends and families, friends and family, and then also professors at school. So those were the most likely places for people started looking.

Those aren't the only places, but I think those are, those are just because they're in your family, or they just because, you know, if they're a business leader in in another sector, but they're part of your family or part of your your social group, I think those are great people to talk to. And entrepreneur centres in your area might be really great as well. Startup centres if you're in a business.

Those are great places because, you know, whether we're, we like to think as veterinarians that we're quite different, but in actual fact, veterinary medicine is no different than a lot of other businesses. So it's very, it's those are they're fantastic resources. They're often paid for by government grants and paid for so you can actually often access things for free.

So those are areas that you might want to look as well. Brilliant. Oh, that's great, thank you both.

We are just running out of time, was there any sort of final closing comments that you'd like to make to end our conversation today? I might just put in a plug for, for people who are thinking that they are, you know, if somebody asks them to mentor them or ask them to meet up, I think often we think that we don't have anything to offer, or we think, oh, I'm not senior enough to be a mentor, like that's a very formal role. But, you know, I will tell you that from building mentorship programmes within practises and watching people, even when we have students.

Even when we've had student days at practises and students come in, people who are new graduates have an immense amount of knowledge to offer because you're even 6 months further along, where you have learned so much more in those 6 months than, and you have so much to offer. So even as an upper class person, or an upper, I guess, I don't know what you call it in, in the UK, but, you know, if you're in your final year of vet school, you have a tonne to offer new, you know, new vet students as well. So do think about those parts as well.

So you're never too young to be a mentor. And it has immense, it just is such a wonderful feeling to know that you might have helped somebody, and also it just gives you, it reminds me of how far you've come. I think it is a helpful thing, particularly as a new graduate, and it gives you a bit of, I think it gives you a bit of juice to to kind of continue on and build up your resilience and it just reminds you, there's so many wonderful benefits to to giving your time.

So, and you get a lot back as well as it's often mentoring up and down. Yeah, you get helpers high every time you help. It's a scientific fact that you feel great once you've actually helped.

So often we say we don't have time, even making time for that 5 minutes can have a profound impact on your own self-esteem, and, and purpose as well as the immense doors you might be opening for someone else. And I think it's really important as well, like, Mel's kind of touched on that, that, that thinking out loud, not just about challenges, but celebrating and sharing those wins. I get immense joy when my mentees share those things with me.

I, I literally, I get, I get do. Bumps are well up, all those things. And it's just, it's so wonderful to be supporting, you know, that human to human support.

We all, we all are desperate for connection, and it's another way to have a really powerful connection. And some of those mentorship relationships can lead on to friendships and loads of other things, you know? So, I just think it's such, such an important thing to foster, in any which way you can.

Brilliant. Oh, that's a lovely way to close the podcast. Thank you both so much.

It's been great having you here today, and yes, absolutely, if you've got any links back to your website or your platforms, please do send them over and we will put them all on our blog for our listeners to find them. That's wonderful. Oh, thank you both so much.

Take care. Bye, bye.