Hello everybody and welcome back to Vet Chat. I'm Catherine Bell, your host for today, and today we are bringing you something a little bit different. So we are going to be discussing a question that is becoming increasingly important for veterinary businesses and brands.
Where should you be investing your marketing budget to achieve the greatest return? In this episode we are going to be exploring how veterinary marketing is evolving, what's really driving return on investment, where businesses are investing their time and budget, and the opportunities that lie ahead. So to join me with this conversation today, we have 3 fantastic guests.
So welcome everybody. First of all, we have Will Peel. Will is a veterinary surgeon turned marketing consultant with more than 20 years' experience across clinical practise and the animal health industry.
As founder of Little Red Dog and chair of the Veterinary Marketing Association, Will helps animal health brands to maximise marketing effectiveness and drive measurable growth. So hi Will, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me.
We are also joined by Hannatte Lloyd, director at Pinstone, a specialist PR and communications agency working across the farming, food and environment sectors. Hannah specialises in turning industry insight into communications that genuinely connect with farmers, vets and the wider livestock supply chain. So welcome Hannah.
Thanks for having us. And then finally, last but not least, we have Ross Bearman from the webinar Vet, who works closely with veterinary organisations and commercial partners to develop education and marketing partnerships that deliver both value for both brands and veterinary professionals. So welcome Ross.
Thank you very much. Lovely, ah well thank you all firstly so much for being here, it's great to have you all here today. I guess to kick us off, Will, would you be able to share a little bit about the Veterinary Marketing Association and the latest state of the nation report?
Sure, yeah. So, for those of the, of you that have not heard of the, the VMAs, the Veterinary Marketing Association, we are a sort of specialist association within animal health. We're the only one of its kind and we exist to support marketers in industry and vet practise to do their best really through education, connection, and celebration.
So we have our annual awards ceremony, which is a big thing, but in and around that, we also do bits of market research, educational pieces to help sort of drive, education and, marketing excellence in the sector. And 2 years ago, we did a state, state of the nation report, so we, we revitalised that. It had a, quite a few years of being absent, and we kicked it back off, and we looked at things like how, vet practise marketers and industry marketers consume media, what training needs, They, they might need, and crucially relevant today, how they spend their marketing budgets.
So we're planning to rerun that survey actually this year because it's been two years since the last one, but I think even the stuff that we had 2 years ago is quite relevant, to what we're speaking about today. And it's quite a big report if anybody wants to delve into it deeper, they can go to our website, join as a member, and find all the information there. OK, fantastic, brilliant, that's great, well, thank you.
And I guess you're gonna be touching upon some of the findings from that, aren't you, as we sort of chat today. Yeah, brilliant. Sounds good, OK, fantastic.
Well I thought a good place to start would be to kind of have a little bit of time I guess to reflect on how marketing, Better me Martin specifically has changed over the last sort of 12 to 18 months. Obviously. We'll get into lots of detail around budgets and ROI etc.
But I guess to start, does anybody want to share like where they are seeing the most changes over the last year or so? I think AI is a big thing, isn't it, really? It's the hot topic on everyone's lips at the moment.
So, yeah, it's, it's an ever-changing piece, really, isn't it? And everyone's just trying to get to grips with it. And again, you know, around the education piece, we are planning to do a session, or a day CPD on that in September by the VMA.
So check, check us out for that. But yeah, it's, it's certainly a big thing. I don't know what you think, Hannah.
God, yeah, I mean, essentially the game has changed, hasn't it? Like phenomenal amount of development happened in the last two years. AI has gone from being this thing that a few like techie people are across to something that's driving everyday behavioural change, like where people are finding their information, how they're consuming, their attention spans, like everything about it has changed, hasn't it?
So in terms of how you market yourself, your brand, your products within that landscape, yeah, whole new strategies required essentially. So yeah, a lot for marketeers to get their head around and keep a top across because it's changing literally daily. Yeah, I think the state of the nation survey this year will be really interesting because we only touched upon it 2 years ago and there was a couple of questions in, in around that, but 2 years ago there was a lot of fear around it, and I think markets didn't quite understand what it was about, but I think we are starting to get to the point where they are learning and, and seeking out information and, and CPD and things like that on how to use it most effectively.
I, I, I do also think that sort of from speaking to our partners that with AI and all of the other digital sort of resources that we're seeing now that vets and, and vet nurses are even more overwhelmed than ever, so it's sort of more important to cut through that noise and, and deliver something that's really relevant and perhaps not just reach orientated, but, but quite sort of segmented and specific. I think there's two prongs to it, isn't there, Ross, because it's about how you actually as a marketeer create content and the role for AI within that, like what it speeds up, what it does and what it's good at, what it's terrible at. But then there's also like that huge change in where your audience is and like you say, the amount of volume of content out there is just exponentially increased.
So actually, like I say, you've got to cut through, cut through the noise and make sure you land something that is empathetic resonates. So yeah, it's, it's overwhelming. Completely, yeah, people are getting wise to it as well, aren't they, you know, this AI slop, so, it's becoming quite obvious when people use AI tools, and I was listening to a podcast the other day, and the lady on it explained about the AI sandwich.
So she's like, you really need to get very good at prompting, which is a key, key learning need, I think, to then make sure that your AI output is really good, but then also you need the human touch on the other side to edit, and that's where the, the real skill, I think, comes in as well. Yeah, I think people are so privy now, aren't they, to social media posts or content on websites that has just been copied and pasted straight out of AI. It's just so much more obvious now than it was, you know, even 6 months ago.
Yeah. And I bet by the time you do your CPD event in September, there's probably more tools that don't even exist yet. Yeah, probably, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, it is a bit of a beast, isn't it? Mhm. OK, fab, so let's move on and talk a little bit about return on investment, so.
There are so many different ways for businesses to market to the veterinary profession right now, so I'm really interested to sort of hear what you're all seeing in your kind of day to day. Is there anything anybody wants to share around where they're seeing companies get the best return for their marketing spend? Yes, well, we could, again, lean on the state of the nation for some data there.
So I think overwhelmingly, even, you know, between the two vet practises and industry marketers, digital tools were, were key, especially around social media and website use for vet practises, but, also around sort of like online learning tools as well. So, anything where there's like some useful content created. So that, that was key from that report really, as to, to what marketers were spending more on and seeing good return on investment from.
I think, obviously I'm coming at it here more with a PR slant on things. And again, coming back to AI that's changed the, the impetus behind PR because it's not just about getting the column inches, getting your news stories to land. It's also how you fuel that knowledge in large language models about brands and organisations and PR is one of the.
Most trusted sources. So we've seen some clients do really well where they're really up the ante on stakeholder and press relations, like really thinking about how they can amplify that channel, make it work really hard for them because they get the payback in terms of those online AI overviews and things like that as well. Like those new sources are just so well recognised.
And the other channel we've seen have a real upsurgence is LinkedIn from a B2B point of view, so where you're really working within your trade sectors like trying to work with those veterinary audiences, that again is like, yeah, the value of that channel's definitely increased. I, I think it's really interesting from our side, so we're, we're finding sort of from our partners that educational content in terms of webinars are having sort of more and more importance and, and they're sort of the registrations and, and the people sitting on those topics are, are increasing and I think that's perhaps somewhat because they're, they're sort of real and tangible and, and sort of are moving away from that sort of AI piece that we're talking about where there's sort of, there's actual human interaction somewhat on the on that content. I totally agree Ross and we've seen that actually cause COVID obviously brought virtual coms like again changed the game, what 6 years ago now.
And then it felt like it went through a period didn't it where it felt like certainly from our point of view more on the media side that people were a little bit like teams weary if you like. But actually good quality targeted webinars, we've seen huge growth on that side with things like where you've been owning industry issues so. And bluetongue being a new disease outbreak that we were involved with handling from an industry point of view.
We had phenomenal stats of vets, like from a cascade point of view. How do we engage vets and get them to be knowledgeable on a new subject so they can then help their farmers and webinars was a brilliant vehicle for that. Yeah, no, totally agree.
It does have more value, doesn't it? Because, you know, all the vets. Do need to get their CPD hours in at the end of the day.
And I think what I'm seeing a pullback from is that sort of really broad top of aware, awareness, activity. So, less spend on like massive, print ad campaigns and more like targeted things that, that drive education and, and awareness that way. It just seems to be a bit more credible.
Because obviously, you're not, it's not coming from the company so much as well when you're partnering with, you know, KOLs and things like that, it, it's that kind of think piece thing, isn't it? That's really useful. It seems to be more sort of more about sort of building trust and and sort of retaining retaining sort of people rather than sort of almost attracting news so much at the moment from our side.
Yeah, 100%. It's not that low-hanging fruit, isn't it really? If you've got customers that are already engaged somehow, it's just how to kind of keep them even more engaged and, and not lose them rather than just kind of filling your bucket in at the top, which might be a bit leaky.
Yeah. Is there anything on like the flip side, I guess, like anything that you're seeing that's less effective now than what, you know, was 12 months ago? I know you touched upon the will, like, you know, maybe like big prints and things like that, but anything else anybody wants to share?
Go on Hannah, you were gonna say something. I mean, organic social's bloody hard work, isn't it, in terms of just that churn that keeping that wheel moving and with like the algorithms are really negative for you if you've not got a paid strategy. So where brands are sort of naively trying to fight through, fight through the noise with just organic social, that is just a slog, isn't it?
Like the amount of effort for the amount of engagement and impressions in return is really difficult. And that's where like some well placed paid digital strategies working with webinars as well, like good quality content can up the ante to make that activity worthwhile, but on its own, like, yeah, we've got clients moving away from some social just because they perhaps haven't got the bandwidth to do it right and actually you've got a challenge, you better to do something really well and focus your efforts. But again, it all comes down to what's your objective, your audience, like, etc.
Yeah, I totally agree. So many platforms to try and engage, you know, as, as well, isn't there, and you should really be tailoring your approach differently for each platform, whereas I think everyone just sort of tends to do a copy and pasting and Hannah said it there with regards to, you know, having a strategy behind things. I think people feel like they need to be on social media because that's where everybody is, but if you don't have the strategy of what, what you're trying to achieve from social media and how to do it properly, then it just becomes a bit of a waste of time, because it is really time-consuming to do properly.
I think that strategy piece as you said is absolutely fundamental and that's what we're seeing clients having to really invest perhaps is really looking at their strategies because what worked for them as a business two years ago is now not gonna gonna cut it. And yeah, I mean we all see it. I see myself how I consume media and how I use my socials personally is changing all the time.
Like busy is just the common commonality for everyone now, isn't it? So. Yeah, we're also going into a younger workforce, aren't we, with the, you know, that Gen Z workforce now, and, you know, as we're all getting a bit older, we need to try and kind of keep, keep, down with the kids, don't really, and know where they are and what they want, which gets harder, but sorry, Ross, go on.
No, I was just gonna say it's, we're all sort of becoming slightly immune to it somewhat, aren't we? And it's it's again just trying to sort of break through that noise and I think a large part from our side is understanding what a client needs and what they're trying to actually achieve. And if, if we can really understand that then we can tailor those campaigns to, to, to fit.
I think Hannah, you, you sort of mentioned working. Perhaps not just doing say socials for example, but working them into a strategy is something that we're seeing work really well. They might not work as a sort of solo piece, but I think they can be really useful alongside something else.
Yeah, I see it more as a complimentary tool in the way that I do for sure. It's not, you can't put your eggs in one basket, can you? Brilliant, so I guess if you've teed me up quite nicely for my next question which was more around budgets and shifts that you're seeing across the sector, so it would be great to get your views on, Are you seeing maybe investment going up in certain areas, are you seeing potential areas where it's been completely scaled back, any thoughts on that?
I think, well, I already touched on it, a few seconds ago with regards to print. I mean, print's definitely not dead, but I think throwing loads of money without knowing how to measure the effectiveness of it, or doing it as a sort of peace in isolation is definitely something that people are turning away from. Alongside also exhibitions as well, I think.
So, you know, people still go to exhibitions, but there are just so many of them now, and it's really difficult to decide which ones you should be going to, and they are quite a cost. So what I've seen is either, you know, people are maybe having a break for a year or two from a big exhibition. Or, and, you know, trying to go to some of the smaller ones maybe, or going with a smaller stand and presence.
So there's definitely been a shift in, in budget spend there, I think, and that again was reflected in the State of the Nation report. That was something that teams were planning to spend less money on going forward. So it'd be interesting to see two years later what, has changed there.
Was sustainability mentioned around that as well? Will anything around like travelling and things to do with shows or. I think, I think that's definitely a thing.
So I think, you know, in any business I, I've worked in recently, you know, that whole, you know, all the sales team travelling to, an exhibition and then having to dismantle the stand and throw it away, that's definitely also, a thing that maybe makes people think twice about whether they should be spending and going to as many, but it wasn't mentioned in the report specifically, but it's something we could, definitely question people on this year. Interesting, thank you. I think what we've seen is certainly a push to be more strategic and more joined up.
So like what you were saying, Ross, like in isolation, a channel on its own, you question the value versus the effort. But actually when you start to look at things as much more concerted focused, creative campaigns, because you've understood the audience and what they're dealing with, what's going to cut through for them, what's keeping them up at night, that's where we've seen real value for clients. So there's definitely more focus on actually right here.
Is the issue at large. Here's how our product or service or slots in on that issue and what problems it it does solve for that audience. So how do we creatively take that and run with it and like generate some really good conversations.
We've also seen I totally agree about the event piece and there's perhaps been a move to more targeted high value, like smaller events where you're really trying to actually get in taking that webinar concert really well. Actually, you've got a low hanging fruit of some quality prospects. How do we get them in a room on an issue they're really interested in?
How do we get them at a breakfast before an event and make it work even harder? So that sort of stakeholder and sort of, again, sort of coming full circle on the face to face, isn't it? Like actually where you can, where can you get quality, but not just mass, mass coms like everything being much more tailored and much more targeted.
And that's what's nice in this digital world now is that people still want to be in front of people. I really like that. Yeah, it's nice, as you said, it's gone full circle, hasn't it?
We're, we're also finding I think that instead of just sort of piece by piece putting campaigns together sort of as and when they come up, there's quite a sort of move to be a bit more long term focused and to put sort of proper annual plans together rather than I, I think previously we were seeing quite a lot of our partners. Would say, get in touch and say we want to run something in 3 months' time. Now we're saying we'll, we'll run something for the next 12 months because if we do it properly, then we'll make sure that we get the results that you've actually told us that you're looking to achieve.
And I think that there's quite a, a, a sort of move now even more than ever to be very data, data driven to sort of prove that ROI is happening. And I think with those real conversations and with those long term plans, we're seeing that, we're seeing those sort of, those numbers that are, are being requested hit rather than sort of running them piece by piece perhaps. Mhm.
Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Are there any sort of like surprises anyone's seen in their spending over the last 12 months or so, anything that jumps out to share? I guess that full circle piece we've touched on and like even things like actually in some scenarios people wanting more print as converse as that is to some of the stuff we've talked about thus far, like where you really want to land something because people are so overwhelmed digitally.
Again, it's it's very much horses for courses and it depends what the objective, the audience, the brief is, but. We've certainly seen an upsurgence in like that. How can we interpret quite long form, quite technical information and make it really gettable for people like short and sharp and like what's gonna resonate so that that hopefully entice them into looking at the longer form.
But yeah, a real variation. Yeah, I would, I would say probably the, the lack of spending in AI actually. I think there's a bit of head in the, head in the sandness about it, if that's the word, I could use.
So that's probably what I would like to see more of is more investment into training and tools because, you know, you'll often get given the free, the free co-pilot or the free version of Gemini, but actually like, I want the paid version because I want to see what it can do for me, so that would be quite nice. It's interesting you say that well, so we, we find quite often if we put sort of AI topics out, the, the engagement isn't as strong as, as other topics, right, which, which is fine because I think people are sort of overwhelmed by it somewhat, but if we take the sort of, The words of AI out of the title for example, all of a sudden the same topic does really well, and I think it's just perception of, of what people believe they're going to sort of be educated on. Might be the vets think it means artificial insemination possibly you might need to qualify what you're gonna ask about.
It's difficult, isn't it, because there's two ends of the spectrum like we've seen with some big corporate clients in the animal health space, they're like they're locked down on it, they're not allowed to use it a lot. It's like the corporate machine says no. Conversely, like you say, the more independent, smaller spectrum businesses, they perhaps haven't had the bandwidth or investment to either pay for it or get their head around it or even just have time.
So yeah, the, it, it is really difficult like it's moving around at pace and changing things and there are people that are kind of just not having the opportunity to get across it properly. It's really difficult. I do also think there's a, a real sort of lack of, of proper training around AI to be honest.
We, we all use it and we all sort of think that we're using it well, but I, I, I, I mean I'd like to see some really good training on how to use it sort of in in a on sort of a day to day basis I guess. To be fair, we say, it's changed the game on a PR side of things because of that in like that introduction of GEO now and trying to sort of get your clients across those AI overviews online, like it's no longer about rankings, all about the AI overview. So we have seen in the PR industry quite a step up in training around that sort of PR in AI era.
But again, I'm obviously sort of in that agency world that is slightly probably got a stronger CPD band around it. I can totally see that for independence of people working in marketing and vet practises, that's not something that would cross their desk and. I don't agree it needs to, it, it is really gettable when you see it and understand it, so I think they just need the opportunity, don't they?
It's just like getting off that hump, isn't it? I think, you know, that practise is so time and staff poor that, you know, they've got a tool there that could save them time, but they just don't have the time to actually invest to learn about it properly to then save them the time in the long run, it's a shame really. I was at BMG congress a couple of weeks ago and I went to one of the lectures around cybersecurity specifically.
And one of the questions that they asked was, put your hands up in the room if anybody's got an AI strategy for their practise, like an AI policy, is there anything to follow and nobody, nobody had. So I think yeah, it's you've got to almost make that time haven't you to to get it out there and you know embedded into your practise for everybody to start to use it because I think when there's not clear guidelines, people are just a bit nervous too. We had to, like, I totally agree, Catherine, because as an agency, obviously the clients are like, what's your strategy?
They want to know what our strategy and our guardrails are because they obviously trust us with their IP, they trust us with their coms. So we had to just by the nature of that we did have to be really on the front foot. So we ran a conference for our clients 2 years or 3 years ago now actually, like when an OpenAI.
Launch GPT in the wider sense. And yeah, we've since had policies that we've had to update very frequently. We've had to really like base our FDs had to stay finger on the pulse and he's sort of driving a task force, but obviously we're an agency that's all we do is coms.
That's a very different market to someone who's working in a business with commercial gains as well. So yeah, it's the need for that support for businesses to keep on top of this is, is definitely there. Absolutely.
Do you think kind of like looking ahead at marketing budgets, do you think that's where most are going to spend their sort of time and energy over the next 12 to 24 months, say, or do you think there might be other areas where that might start to gain momentum a little bit? Hard to say, isn't it really? I suppose it really depends on the business and the size that they are and the resource that they have, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, the challenge from it is, commercial leads are often like, well, marketing's easier now, you can do more, more quickly, and that's the converse, isn't it? But like you say, well, you could, but it would be absolute trash. It's not, not what a brands should be doing.
So, yeah, there is a bit of a juggle, should we say with people that are sort of like, well, surely you can just produce content like what's the what's the problem with actually no, we need like for me what I'd like to see more investment in is that sort of really understanding the audience, generating data still generating decent quality hooks and information that adds value for the audience. That that's where you, you need to bring new IP in and just because there's so much information out there, people are sort of backed away from it and actually as long as it's quality and it's understanding the audience and what will help them, for me that's where the opportunity is. And also I guess as AI is more used, it's someone described it to me the other day as the worm that's gonna eat itself eventually.
So, you know, because it only feeds off the content that's, that's put in, so it'll just mean that if everyone's using it, you know, all the content that's put out will be very samey, so it does represent an opportunity to sort of put that human factor first, isn't it, for companies to actually, sort of position themselves slightly away from it and differentiate. Did you get any feedback, will, in the last state in the nation report, you know, specifically kind of like looking forward, I know we touched upon at the start, kind of, you know, what the report was and its purpose, etc. But was there any kind of like key insights around the future of marketing?
I think one of the things that resonated for me was, was training needs actually with both practise and industry markets, but particularly vet practise marketers actually. So, there was a general lack of confidence in, in marketing ability, and a lack of training and support and time to do their, their jobs properly. So I think that practise marketers certainly felt that their marketing role was a bit of a side hustle, from their day to day job, and it wasn't really given as much attention or resources they felt it was, was needed.
So, I think, I think that's definitely something to work on. I think a real surprise actually for me was that marketers didn't seem to use podcasts. Asks, to get their training, so we might be completely wasting our time here, but I think, I think for me it was probably that there's not really much podcasts, around for matters like this, actually, especially animal health specific.
So it's something that we can look to change for sure, because for me, that was as far as I use marketing podcasts quite, quite a bit when I'm out walking the dog to just get, tidbits of information and training. So, it's quite an accessible thing to do, and easy, easy to access. You think it should be right because like these people are busier than ever and if you can pick something up on the train or as you said sort of walking the dog, then in theory that's sort of the perfect, perfect time to learn because you're spending that time anyway.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean podcasts, yeah, I, I use them a huge amount in the car and stuff and I think they are a brilliant vehicle, but I think until people are aware that there's one that fits them and they're. Sort of their niche if you like, that's the thing, it's, it's overwhelming when you look at it, isn't it?
When you go on the podcast and start searching like marketing training or something, it's like blows your mind, doesn't it? But actually if you can find something dedicated to you, your sector, what you focus in. Maybe there's a gap in the market that we're on to.
Fab. Just a little bit conscious of time, but I just had a bit of a quickfire question for everybody if that's OK. So if you had 2000 pounds right now to invest in veterinary marketing, where would you spend it to get the best return?
Let's go to you first, Will. Yeah, I think it's straight off the back of my last comment, really, it would be training. So if I had 2000 pounds spent on training my marketing team or myself, that's exactly where I'd spend it, because then your team are using, their marketing spend more wisely, aren't they?
They're being a bit more strategic, and hopefully by doing that, then you're going to get a better effects with whatever else you're doing. So, I wouldn't kind of be able to say, I could spend it on this particular thing on this channel in isolation. I think it's more of a training need, actually.
Perfect, thank you, how about you, Hannah? Well, I don't disagree. Obviously Will's made a sound case, but I'm gonna come at it from the PR side, because that's my job, sorry.
But I personally would put on a trip, take key stakeholders and press something relevant that engages them on you and your organisation, what you do, build some brilliant relationships because that in terms of the credibility, the profile, the news. Value you will get out of that engagement like we call or contact relationships as we've talked about, that's where I would invest some energy if I had 20 to spend. Yeah, and I think that earned media side is really important, isn't it?
Because that can just run and run and run if you get a really good piece that resonates and so it can be really good value for money, I think. I think I, I know we're all sort of looking at it from slightly different angles here, but I, I think to sort of expand on what you said, well, for me it's all about trying to understand what, what the client's looking to achieve. And once you've, once you've sort of got that understanding, it's then sort of deciding where to put that to best fit those needs.
I think for us we're seeing sort of contrary to what you said before, but we're seeing to try and get in front of vets, we're seeing podcasts that are increasingly becoming quite useful. So I think that's something that I'd, I'd look at with a really strong marketing piece sort of behind it. Excellent, brilliant, that's great, thanks Ross.
Oh well, thank you so much for time has flown by and we're out of time already, but any sort of final comments or thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners before we close today? Just for me, if you are interested in learning more about AI then just remember to check out that VMA event in September. It should be going on our website soon.
So it's, a day of interactive CPD around, AI use in, in practise and in industry. Great stuff, thanks Phil. Send us the link when it's ready and we'll pop it on the platform, the recording.
That's good. How about you, Hannah? Yeah, I mean, get involved with the VMA.
It's a brilliant community and like, especially if you feel like you're a bit of an island in your marketing in your business, join the VMA. It's really cost effective entry point and there's opportunities to get involved with the awards, get involved with some CPD. We've got an event at the House of Lords coming up.
There's just a really great jam packed schedule as well as a really good community of people that are all dealing with the same challenges every day. So yeah, definitely. Thanks Hannah.
I must admit, I second that. I've been lucky enough to go the last couple of years and I've really enjoyed it and there's some really great people. I, I think from our side we're always looking to sort of speak to, to marketeers and to people that are trying to get in front of a veterinary audience, so if we can help with that at all, then feel free to reach out.
Great stuff, ah well, thank you all so much, that brings us to the end of today's episode, but yeah, big thank you to Will, Hannah and Ross, thanks so much for sharing your very varied, Insights and experiences from the different types of people that you work with, it's been really interesting, so thank you so much, I'm sure everybody has gained something that they can take away to implement in the future. And thank you everyone for listening, er we hope you've enjoyed the episode and if you haven't already, then please make sure to subscribe to Vetchat. And that's it, thanks so much everyone and see you all soon.
Thank you.
