Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar Vett welcoming you to another episode of the UK's number one veterinary podcast vet chat. And I'm so pleased that I can introduce our next guest to you. Somebody who I met at a Nature's Safe event, just a couple of months ago, Richard Vine, who is the executive director for the School for Wildlife Conservation at the African Leadership University.

Richard gave an absolutely fabulous talk at Nature's Safe and we're gonna definitely go over some of those elements late as we do the podcast. But just to give you a little bit of background, Richard is a Kenyan, went to school in the UK, did his degree at Newcastle University in zoology. And have spent most of your career in what some people might have said in the past, Richard, is a, is a dead end job doing conservation, how wrong they were, it is really such an important area.

It's, I suppose, you know, I look at the moment at the two existential threats to the world, and one of them is nuclear war. I can't do anything about that. The other is the, the destruction of the planet's, environmental degradation, which means we no longer can really, work and live on the planet.

I think we all can do something towards that. Obviously people like yourself doing so much. But it's an individual responsibility, it's a corporate responsibility.

It's also government responsibility, but first and foremost, as I've said, it's us as individuals that can make a difference, can't we? Yeah, no, I mean 100%. You know, if, if, if I look back on, on my career, when I.

I've, I've always been passionate about the, the so-called world of conservation. I have a difficulty with the word, the word conservation because it means to preserve and, and if you look it up in the dictionary, it talks about preservation for the sake of preservation. But I think, you know, what's happened in, in, in the past 30 or 40 years since I told my father that I was going to become a conservationist, and he said to me, what a waste of time.

You're never gonna earn any money, you're never gonna be able to educate your children, and so on and so forth. What's happened in that intervening period of time is, is conservation has, has morphed into something which is much more around the sustainable management of natural resources for economic benefit, based on the fact that without those resources, we humans would cease to exist. It's really just as simple as that, .

And if you look at some of the horrific statistics that are beginning to emerge based on surveys of natural populations which have been happening for the last 30 years, I mean, simple things, which is, I know, been in the press in the UK recently, but the decline in insect populations and, you know, people who are not in my world will say, well, you know, does that really matter? But if I told you that, you know, the value of crops pollinated by insects across the world runs into many trillions of dollars, and without those insects, those crops would not be pollinated. You begin to understand the value of nature and the value of biodiversity.

So I think what's happened is conservation has become much more mainstream than it has ever been before, and that's, that's based on a recognition that people are increasingly having, which is an understanding which is that, you know, actually biodiversity is fundamentally important for the safe and secure existence of humans going forwards on this planet, and without it we wouldn't be able to exist. So, so it's transformed in the last 30 or 40 years, I would say. Well, I know we're both fans of Kate Raworth, the Oxford professor that you spoke so eloquently about during your lecture at the Nature Safe event.

And I think it's, it's really important that the economic world on the whole has never placed the environmental cost and its profit and loss. It's seen the environment as a, you know, as a, an infinite resource that's never going to be actually lost. And I think now there is a realisation that we can actually exhaust the planets.

Do you see yourself though as a person of hope that this ship can be turned around and that we can actually, As you say, not just conserve because we're probably past that now, but actually begin to regenerate again. Yeah, I do. I, I fundamentally believe that's possible.

I, I think there's some good examples to demonstrate that that is the case. There are isolated examples from a biodiversity perspective where recovery has happened, and, and that's the beauty of nature. If you give it a chance, it does regenerate and regenerates incredibly quickly.

And it can continue once it's regenerated to provide the so-called ecosystem services that we've all come to rely on, whether that's fish in the sea that we harvest or insects that pollinate our crops. And I think the other, there's another good example which is talked about a little bit in the, the, Kate Roth's doughnut theory of economics, which, one of, one of the highlights of that is what happens. To the ozone, ozone layer, and those of us who are old enough will recall that the emerging hole in the ozone layer as a result of the use of chemicals, the name of which I've forgotten, was a massive potential catastrophe for planet Earth.

And research was done, the chemicals were identified. They were eliminated from the products, particularly fridges that used to use them. And lo and behold, all of a sudden the ozone, the ozone layer, this kind of amorphous thing that we don't really see, has started to recover and close up again.

So, you know, that's an illustration of the kind of recovery at scale, which can happen if we humans put our minds to making it happen. So I believe there's, you know, we, we are exceeding. Ecological ceilings, so called, in doughnut theory, where, wherever we're looking, wherever we look at the moment, those, those ecological ceilings are being exceeded, and it can't carry on forever, but do we have the power and the ability as humans to recover that, to return ourselves to operating within.

The ecological ceilings that determine our ability to continue, continue to live on planet Earth. The answer I think is a resounding yes, of course it's going to take some pretty fundamental changes to the way that we run our economic models, and there's going to be a whole lot of change that has to happen in the way that people think, particularly at the level of government, but I think that's beginning to happen. So my view is that whilst we've still got some hurdles to cross and some bridges to build.

The future actually is looking far brighter now than it's looked for many, many years. It's interesting when you talk about government, because in a sense, government on the whole usually is fairly short term, you know, they have a 5 year cycle. It's populist as well, so it tends to look at what will win at the most votes.

Do you see government as almost the last piece of the jigsaw in that we have to start with individuals and businesses and NGOs who actually sort of pull government to the table, or do you think government is becoming a lot more keyed into this and moving, you know, maybe quicker than I'm giving it credit for. You know, you've only got to look at what happened at COP 15 in December last year in Montreal. That that was a, the, the fact that they were able to reach an agreement about the recovery of biodiversity within a very short time frame frame is for me a signal to the fact that governments are now taking this seriously.

And I think it's because it's an existential threat to our current ability to exist on planet Earth that is increasingly being recognised, and because its the loss of biodiversity presents such a threat to the existence of human life on the planet, the, the ability of our current economic models to continue working and etc. That, you know, governments are having to take it very seriously, but I also think. That just, that there has been a movement over the past 5, 1015, 20 years perhaps, and particularly amongst the younger generations, where they're beginning to understand that the, not only is biodiversity important but you know, it's just the fact that it's being lost at such a rate represents something that is unacceptable I think in the minds of many young people.

You know, the fact that, young people might be thinking that they will never be able to go scuba diving on a coral reef or see elephants in the wild like their parents used to be able to or whatever. I think, you know, is something which is, which is, which is, which is deeply important to, to, to young people. And I think You've got, so you've got, you've got young people who are the future consumers, who are demanding higher standards from the people they, buy from, the people who they consume from the companies who provide them with their products.

You've got that pressure coming up, which companies are having to become sort of cognizant of and react to. And at the same time you've got this top down pressure as the kind of existential global threat is increasingly recognised, which now governments are having to pay significant heed to. So you've got it coming from all angles, I think, and that's the reason that I say or believe that this is actually, you know, we've got to, in my, in my view, we've got to the kind of nadir, we've got to the bottom.

And, and I think, you know, things will probably get worse for a little bit longer yet, but the rate of decline is, is, is I think going to start to sharply decline. And then I think we're going to start to come out on the other side and, and the measures we, we take now over the next 5 or 10 years are going to, you know, see a, a huge recovery and a regeneration of the natural world, and I think that's going to happen globally. And I think it's there's gonna be more money available to make that happen.

And it's gonna become. A kind of core thread of our existence in the way that we interface with planet Earth, and I think that will become inculcated within the way that humans think and the way that humans consume, and the way that they Insist upon their governments doing the responsible thing and stewarding biodiversity in the environment far better than has been the case thus far. So, so, look, I, I, I, I think there's it's still clearly a very complex space.

We're not there yet. The complexity of the new sort of financial instruments and tools which are being developed. And their ability to go to market in terms of financially resourcing the recovery of biodiversity is still a long way off being something that we can apply effectively, but the change and the thinking around the change and the resourcing to make it happen and the pressure from governments and regulation and consumer pressure.

Coming from the people who buy from the big companies who have the biggest impacts from a biodiversity perspective across the world is mounting so rapidly that you can only feel that we will be pushed as a collective across the planet in, in, in, into the right direction and that things will start to to recover as a result. So yeah, I'm confident that it's, it's, it's beginning to happen and I think the race of Positive change is going to only accelerate. Yeah, I mean, I, I agree it was really gratifying to see the High Seas treaty signed just recently off the back of COP 15.

And then of course America coming back into the climate crisis fold by. I think it was $369 billion in the inflation Reduction Act, so America is, is a huge part of the solution, isn't it? So seeing a government that actually recognises climate change is, is massive, isn't it?

Yeah, but you know what's fascinating, I'm not sure if I should be talking specifically or about specific countries. What's amazing about America is if you actually go there and see some of the innovative. Conservation, or let's call it, sort of innovative, innovative systems that have been developed to steward natural resources, including biodiversity, which have been in place for 20 or 30 years, way before the rest of the world started to even really, really consider this space seriously.

You know, America was ahead of the game and, and in many respects it remains ahead of the game when you talk about. Instruments such as easements on farming land where farmers would be paid by the state to manage their land in a manner that was, supportive of maintaining good amounts of biodiversity. I mean, that was in America 30 years ago, way before anybody else started talking about it.

So, you know, they, they have a big influence on the rest of the planet, but actually, sometimes I think you've just got to dig a little bit deeper and You know, we hear so many, we hear so many stories about extinction and, and everything, everything, you know, that is happening from a biodiversity perspective is sort of wrong and, and, and, and going in the wrong direction. The truth of the matter is that, you know, there is this new movement that is pulling us or pushing us into a different, much more positive direction and importantly, a lot of the tools, including in places like America, but also Africa for that matter. That we're gonna need to make that happen.

Leave aside the financial instruments are also beginning or have already evolved. They just now need to be applied at a scale, at the scale that's going to be necessary to make a meaningful difference. So yeah, again, it's like it's like reading the newspapers, isn't it?

You, you only ever sort of read doom and gloom, but actually there's a lot of really interesting good stuff that's that's happening and it's been happening for many years. And I think that's partly why I do the podcast because there is bad news sells papers and there's so much bad news about, but actually, as you say, like yourself, I'm a I'm a man of hope. I think there are some really good stories and we're almost duty bound to go out and tell tell those stories, aren't we?

Yeah, we are. And, and, you know, there are, there are plenty of them that the, we in, in the school of wildlife Conservation, we have a, a unit which we call the circular economy unit, which is all about people think of it as recycling, but it's much bigger than just recycling, it's repurposing and it's designing products so that it can be repurposed so that it can be repaired so that it doesn't just get thrown away and that, you know, that. In many people's estimation, that's becoming a multi or will become a multi-billion dollar industry.

And I was talking to a guy the other day who was from Germany, and there's technology now which has been developed, which he had been instrumental in setting up in Brazil, and it's all around, recycling of plastics in particular, which has been, you know, challenging globally thus far. But the plant that they set up in Brazil has now got to a point where it's so profitable and where they're able to pay such a high price for old plastic, which they then remanufacture into new, new plastic products. That the that that has become so profitable that the that the price they're able to pay for the plastic is enough for people to be digging up landfills to recover the plastic that was buried to bring it to the factories and the plants that they've set up.

So that's just a simple example. You never read about that kind of stuff in the news, but that technology exists out there, and you see it in places like Kenya, you see people now walking along the sides of the road, picking up plastic bottles that have been thrown out by. People driving along in cars, and the reason they're picking them up is because that commodity, that is now a commodity that's worth money.

They can sell that for quite good money, you know, and to earn a living. So, so again, you wouldn't ever read about it in a newspaper probably. But all that stuff is happening and it's evolving and it's evolving rapidly and of course that, you know.

The recycling of plastic and the circular economy doesn't necessarily always link back into my area of speciality, which is around biodiversity and the recovery of biodiversity, but it's just an illustration of the point that I was trying to make, which is I think there is a lot of good stuff happening. And I think it's beginning to happen at a much more rapid pace than has been the case before. And there's been a lot of evolution of good stuff for the past 20 or 30 years, which is now beginning to be applied at scale.

And so you add all that up and superimpose upon that, the pressure that I was talking about earlier from consumers, the need for governments to take this seriously, the extra resourcing that is coming into the sector, the new thinking that is coming into the sector to the point that it is becoming attractive. For young people trying to develop a career much more attractive than it was when I was starting out. And, and I think all of that adds up to, I wouldn't call it a rosy picture because we're a long way from that, but it's a much more rosy picture, at least as far as the future is concerned, than has been the case for many years.

And I think as, as you've said, actually, the more we silo it, the worse it is, because actually this is all holistic, isn't it? So plastic is definitely a part of, you know, it can be problems with biodiversity with the amount of plastic that's potentially in the ocean in the next 2030 years. So if we can make it economically viable that people are actually putting effort into taking plastic out of the ocean because they can make money from it.

They're much more likely to do it than if there is no economic benefit. I, I think . You know, I've had solar panels on my roof for the last 14 years because it was just the right thing to do.

Whereas now, certainly in the UK solar panels are becoming, certainly with the hike in prices due to the Ukraine and Russia conflict. It's now economically sensible to, to look at solar panels, particularly with our high interest rates at the moment, and I, again going back to Kate's er book. She talks a lot about demourage, which was something that happened in Germany in the 1930s and was very much around, if you have money in the bank, which is devaluing anyway because our inflation is at 10%, isn't it so much more sensible to put it into something that's going to help to renew the planet than, you know, leave it in a bank account where it's, it's devaluing, you know, month on month almost.

Mm, mm. Absolutely. You know, it's .

And, and that's the transformation of the economic model that I think we're beginning to see, you know, it's it's, it's getting, look at the carbon market. I mean, the value, of course, the carbon market is far from a perfect market, and it's received a lot of criticism in recent months, rightly, frankly, but that's, you know, that's just the nature of these, the, the evolution of these markets, they're, they're complex, . You know, absorbing carbon, particularly using sort of nature based solutions is, is a complicated thing.

Assuring the markets that what you're doing really is having an impact and you really are absorbing carbon and you can prove it is, is complicated. But, but the, the, the, the, the point is that it's here to stay. You know, the, the value of a carbon credit has increased and is increasing dramatically, and the supply of carbon credits into the market cannot currently meet demand.

So if you, if you, and, and you know, that's exactly why solar has become an affordable, you know, financially, viable option for people. . It's, it's because more and more pressure is being put upon the need to reduce the emissions of fossil fuels, that translates into extra cost ultimately.

And with new technology and more efficiency in the solar space. Sooner or later, the equation shifts and it becomes worthwhile financially with a good return on investment to to to to set up a solar system to run your home. And the moment that happens is the moment the whole market shifts massively, and it's exactly what is about to happen in the biodiversity markets.

No one is yet talking about the biodiversity markets, but they're coming. And they're coming for all sorts of different reasons, and they are way off being anywhere near something that we can talk about meaningfully right now, but in 5 years' time, they'll be here. What does it mean in practise?

What it means in practise is that me as a steward of biodiversity on my farm or my property or whatever it is, will be able to sell credits into the capital markets as an asset class, which will earn me huge amounts of money. And so it will be worth my while financially to grow biodiversity in order to earn money, whereas before, biodiversity has been seen as a kind of encumbrance. You clear biodiversity to make way for a farm or, you know, you clear biodiversity to make way for industry or whatever it happens to be.

Now biodiversity is suddenly going to be something that's so valuable that actually it's going to pay people to look after it and to grow it. Because they can earn so much money from it. So there's the economic incentive that you were talking about.

And I really believe that will be 5 years down the road. People say I'm a little bit too optimistic. It'll be 10 years down the road, but I don't think that's true.

And the reason I don't think that's true is because of the urgency of addressing this problem, which is now increasingly, you know, recognised as being an incredibly urgent problem that has to be addressed. You know, when you look at the targets that were set by COP 15, these are very ambitious targets, but that's a reflection of the necessity of what has to happen, because in, in nature, you have these, these things called tipping points. One of the famous tipping points is the cod fisheries off the east coast of America, which collapsed due to overfishing about 60 or 70 years ago.

And people thought, well, if we just leave it for 10 years, it will recover. Well, it never did recover. To this day, it hasn't recovered, and that's an example of a tipping point.

So we're pretty close to a lot of tipping points from a nature perspective, and we can't really afford to go beyond those tipping points because then we will be in trouble because things will be lost and they will be permanently lost. So that's the urgency and, and that's why I think things will happen far more quickly than people think. The webinar vet has been serving the veterinary community with CPD for over a decade, but did you know we offer so much more than just that?

Our sister company Sympathy Vets have veterinary jobs all in one place. We serve the full veterinary team, providing permanent and locum roles in practise, whilst also providing a simple and transparent solution to IR 35 where needed. We also care about the environment.

That's why we plant trees for every one of our practise members. To find out more, please visit Simply vets.com today.

I think it's really fascinating, you know, talking about the carbon markets and and evolution and. For me, with companies as well, you know, we're a carbon negative company, so we calculated our carbon and then offset double. And I know there are, you know, potential issues, we've also obviously got to reduce our energy because energy usage goes up every year, we've got to stop doing that.

But I think for people it is a start and they, as, as we've said before, they need to see that they're doing something and obviously there are some, you know, dodgy er carbon credit people. But that has to be better than doing nothing. For example, as a, you know, carbon negative company, we have taken a a part of the Amazon rainforest and therefore it, you know, hopefully if it's properly monitored, that's not going to be cut down.

So I agree with you that I don't think it's the complete solution, but we have to start somewhere. The other interesting one is a lot of businesses now, veterinary businesses say, well, we use sustainable energy, you know, we've gone with a, an electricity company that guarantees 100% sustainable energy. And I have to go back and say, but as this market grows, we need more people to put solar on the roof because obviously more energy will be needed for that sustainable market.

We can then therefore be able to keep oil and gas in the ground, which is what we need to do to help with all the carbon situation. So we have to look at it in a much more, as you say, complex way, it's not quite the simple solution, is it, as you pointed to. No, it's not, and, and, you know, .

Whilst the carbon, as I said earlier, whilst the carbon, you know, the carbon situation at the moment is, is full of flaws, full of problems, that will evolve out, you know, it just takes time. People don't invest into buying a carbon credit, ultimately, unless they can be pretty sure that they're not going to be accused of greenwashing, they're not going to be embarrassed to their customers or whatever. So the pressure will come to make sure that the carbon markets.

And the sort of accreditation of carbon. Projects, whatever they may be, is done properly. I think, I think, .

You know, the, the, the, the point is this, that you, you know, carbon, carbon is not biodiversity, so you could, you could, for example, plant a forest of non-indigenous trees in Kenya where they would be zero biodiversity, but you would be absorbing a huge amount of carbon. I think you've got to ask the question, well, you know, in order to, which by the way, is something they're talking about at the moment, or why not recover indigenous forests. And reap the reward of biodiversity in the process for all of the ecosystem services that it provides to us.

In other words, that's where I think the clever thinking needs to start coming in. You know, there has been this rush to carbon, if I can put it that way, and often that's come slightly at the expense of any other thinking around what else could be done in the process. And if we can kind of marry the recovery of biodiversity and the proper stewardship of biodiversity, together with you know, the rush to carbon, the absorption of, of, of excess carbon, or at least keeping carbon out of the atmosphere, then we're winning on all fronts.

And so when you look at Kate Rower's ecological ceiling, she's not just, she's not talking just about climate change or . Global warming as a result of excess carbon, she's talking about a range of other measures around ecological ceilings, and I think that's what we need to sort of focus on is how do we do this in a way that is financially efficient, that doesn't just focus on one particular aspect but actually uses all of the ingenuity that we have available to us to, to address everything that we need to address. And you know, nature is a powerful tool for being able to do that.

It can absorb carbon, it can regenerate biodiversity, it can provide insects for pollinating crops, it can do all sorts of different things. And I think we need to look at it on that basis. We need to look at it in the whole.

And then just one final point I think is really quite interesting is the whole, you know, someone said to me the other day, and they're a carbon expert, they said if we're still dealing in carbon credits in 20 years' time. Then we're all in a mess because it means we're still emitting too much carbon, so you know, I don't think it's gonna be enough in 5 or 10 years to be offsetting carbon, . Because, you know, you're you're, you're number one, it's an extra expense to your business, which if you could avoid, you probably want to avoid.

Why, why buy carbon credits if you don't need to because you're already carbon negative or carbon neutral. So I think actually what will probably happen is people will be still pushed down the route of carbon neutrality at worst, carbon positivity at best. So the carbon market may start to disappear in 1015 years' time because we're now.

You know, we're not having to trade in credits, or at least it will perhaps reduce in size because there will be some industries which, which can't avoid emitting carbon. But actually that I think will be replaced by what I've tried to explain, which is this kind of marketing biodiversity, which will be playing a, playing a similar role but on a, on a, on a much more kind of holistic, grander, more important scale, if I can put it that way. No, I think it's a really good point, Richard.

We're running the veterinary discussion forum, veterinary Greens discussion forum later on this year and going to be mainly talking about biodiversity because it is seen as this younger, less important brother than, than carbon and, and climate change. But if, if we're planting all the wrong trees in all the wrong places, we end up just with a, as you say, a sterile jungle where there are no birds or no animals and then that isn't. That can't be right.

I, I was at another talk and the person was talking about the Gabon rainforest and actually having elephants in that forest, it absorbed more carbon than if elephants weren't in, which sounds, you know, fascinating, but having that complete ecosystem is so much more important than just sticking trees in and letting them kind of get on with it without putting all the other things in. A simple example would be a lot of the work that is going on all over the world to replant mangrove forests on the coast, on, on coastlines. You, you, you would always want to replant with mangrove, and the reason you'd want to replant with mangrove is because that forms and has historically formed the nursing areas for young fish and etc.

Etc. Well of course that then. Supports fish populations and people who depend upon fish for their livelihoods and so on and so forth.

So that's kind of the point I'm trying to get to, you know, if you're gonna do it because you want to absorb carbon, which is the primary reason that people started to replant mangrove forests, you know, 5 or 10 years ago, well, do, do, do it, sequester carbon in a way that is going to give you many other benefits, you know, . From an ecosystem services perspective, in the case of mangroves, the provision of fish populations that can be fished. I know, finally we were talking about, at the Nature Safe that you're also the custodian of the last two.

Northern white rhino, that is, I suppose, an indication of how important. What we're doing and what we're all trying to do, you obviously more than most to to protect. Not only those big species, but, but all species, somehow the world is a bit poorer when we lose.

As we say, species everyday, ones that we haven't even recognised, ones that have never been actually, you know, scientifically recognised that those species are going, it's . For me it's a tragedy and I think it's a structural sin if our systems are set up in a way that allows this to happen, so it's satisfying to see that we're perhaps moving into a much more hopeful future. Yeah, you know, the northern white rhinos is a, a terribly sorry tale, the fact that we're down to the last two and that if they're going to be recovered as a species, that's going to cost millions of dollars as a signal, frankly to our.

Stupidity, but, and, and for, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the thing I think that people need to recognise is recognise is that whilst northern white rhinos, the last two garners huge amounts of global publicity and etc. Etc. The truth of the matter is that this is just a signal to what is happening across all species.

Globally, I mean, we don't even know how many species exist on planet Earth. There are some people who think they could be 30 million species. Well, if approximately if we all if we know that of all the recognised and known species, approximately 15 to 20% are categorised as between endangered and critically endangered, and you extrapolate that out, that probably means that something like 6 to possibly even as much as 10, as many as 10 million species.

Many, most of which we don't even know exist, are also threatened with extinction. It's a simple, it's a simple mathematical formula and, you know, again, the stupidity of that is that. Wildlife and, and, and, plant and animal species, I can't remember what the exact figures are, but it's something like 15 to 20% of all of the medications that we use as humans to combat cancer, some very successfully to combat, you know, more common ailments and etc.

Etc. Are derived from, from, from animals and plants, well. 30% of those could be about to go extinct, which means, you know, we're losing just a bank of billions of years' worth of evolution, which could be incredibly useful for humans going forward.

So, you know, whichever way you cut it, the way we're living at the moment is unsustainable. We're consuming more than we're consuming more natural capital than the planet can afford to provide to us. It's affecting our ability to live on the planet.

It's affecting our ability to . To continue to produce in many respects, and it's potentially curtailing our ability to to live good lives as humans in the future. So all of it's stupid and, and it demands therefore, you know, a rethink and, you know, again, that, that is what I think is beginning to happen.

We must always remember that 99% of every single species that ever, that has ever existed on planet Earth has gone extinct. Think of dinosaurs. So extinction is a normal process.

It's just the current rate of extinction that we're seeing, and, and the costs of pulling stuff back once you've driven it to the brink of, of complete extinction. So the northern white rhinos, you know, that costs us $20 million to get a herd of northern white rhinos established in the Democratic Republic of the Congo in 20 or 30 years' time, that's $20 million that could have been spent. If we just properly stewarded the natural world much more effectively for the benefit of humans and for the benefit of our ability to live on planet Earth.

So, so, yeah, you know, things have to change. I think we, we've recognised that, the extinction crisis is definitely something that has to be reversed because it's having a hugely detrimental effect on humans. But I think it's great to see, you know, people like yourself so involved in it.

Us also as individuals, you know, as vets, I think people listening to this, vets and nurses, we can have a big impact on what we do in our practises, what people see us do. I, I, I think it is becoming more of a movement, you know, 90% of vets want to do something about sustainability, but as you said earlier, We're not always sure exactly what to do, but I think those little individual acts, and they may seem small, like having pollination, you know, wildflower in, in the front of your practise that helps with pollinators, all of these actions can make a massive difference, can't they? Ginormous.

It's very difficult to think of a sort of similar example, but, I'm just going back to the wildflower example that you gave, and I again, I can't remember the exact numbers. But if everybody set aside, of all the gardens in Britain, if everybody set aside 10%, I think maybe it's 15%, but relatively small amount of their land as a kind of wildflower meadow to help pollinators and to provide habitat for insects and other things. The, the, the, the, the theory is that the, the, it would, there would be a kind of exponential impact to, to populations of, you know, those animals, particularly insects, which thrive in those kinds of habitats.

So in other words, by setting aside 10%, you don't just get a doubling of insect populations, you get a tripling or a quadrupling. And there was a very interesting. A very interesting article, I think it was from New Zealand where there are lots of, they, they have a system around their shores which are pretty long shores where they have lots and lots and lots and lots of very small, complete no take areas within the coastline.

None of them particularly big, but all of them adding together to become far greater than the sum of their parts in terms of their ability to support biodiversity. So yeah, you know, it's small stuff that needs changing more often. Big national parks are kind of grandiose statements, which of course are important, and by the way, America does that better than most, but it's the little things, it's the little actions which are often very small and often completely.

Almost insignificant that we we as individuals take that will make the biggest difference. Richard, thank you so much. It's been a real thrill chatting to you and for being such a man of hope, which I think is so important, we need more and more people who are hopeful.

We, we are creative creatures and we often are very good at solving problems and I like you believe that we can turn this ship around, but this is now the decisive decade and it's great to see people like yourself doing such fabulous work. So thank you so much for all that you do. Thank you very much for having me.

It's it's been really interesting chatting, so thank you. Thank you, Richard. Thanks everyone for listening.

Do think about it, you know, this is the time to plant your wildflower meadows. We, we were giving out flyers at the BSAVA congress that were, that had wildflower seeds in them. I know some of you may be listening who've got those, so do you have them and they're successful, do take photographs because, Those sorts of images bring hope to us all, so thanks everyone for listening, thanks again Richard for taking part and we look forward to seeing you on a podcast very soon.

Bye bye.