Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar Vet welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast. Very fortunate today to have David Charles on the line, who is a veterinary surgeon, ex ABS president, a Bristol graduate, but I never hold those sorts of things against people. So, David, welcome.

That was a terrible, that was a Liverpool joke. There's always a bit of rivalry between the schools, but I'm, I'm now losing count of how many there are, so, that will become more and more difficult, won't it? Yeah, you're gonna say the the the the numbers going up, but it's, it's always nice to have a bit of a rivalry isn't it, and, you know.

My opinion, Bristol's clearly the best. Yeah. No, and it's interesting, isn't it?

Because of course we've gone, to opening new vet schools. I was at, Keele. I think you were as well, weren't you at Keele opening about a month ago.

And a fabulous, new building seems to be a really good curriculum that they're putting together. I think they're in their 3rd year now. And of course part of that was because we're not getting as many vets coming across from Europe because of Brexit.

I know as part of your job you're also seeing a massive increase in the number of certificates and things for veterinary involvement for passing food and things. Tell us a bit about that and how did you get involved in that work? Yeah, absolutely, so I I originally did mixed practise when I, when I graduated 2019, so I was doing farm and small animals and.

There was a big push, kind of late 2019, to get all the kind of as many OVE qualifications as you could, because we knew once Brexit went through, we'd be doing a lot more export health certificates and, and those sorts of things, to the extent that, you know, all the OV courses were free as well, so I, I got quite a lot of the panels then. And then I moved to my current practise where I've done Just Farm since May 2020 and. Because I came in with my panels and I'd done some livestock and some product exports before when we got to.

Tail end of 2020 and we knew how things were going to look a bit more. We had a lot of companies approached us. I think they were talking to DeFA and DA were saying these are the vets in your area that are signed up on the new system to do the exports, it's all online now, which is good because we don't have to sort of photocopy and fax these things off to Carlisle anymore, it's all online, but we, we do a lot of product exports.

I think we probably as a practise. Probably Bill Over 20 hours a week of product exports every week, to the top of my mind I can think of. 4 or 5 clients where we're there every week, and then we've got a couple of other companies that do pet food and things where it's more kind of ad hoc.

We've got we've got a fishing bait company that exports fishing bait at the start of the season to France every year and, Ultimately they don't have a choice now, so they, they have to have a certificate to move those products and. I mean, it's been good for, for farm practises, it's a, it's another good strong supply of of income, but also it's. Actually, I think it's quite helpful.

Yeah, I think it's quite helpful for vets cos I think it helps you understand the whole system and supply chain a bit more so that then when you're on farm talking to farmers, actually you can see the bigger picture maybe in a different way to if we weren't doing any of that side of things as well. And obviously it's got huge human and animal health benefits as well for us in there and doing those veterinary checks. I have to pick you up on something, when were Defra still using faxes?

So when I, yeah, 2019, you could scan them and email them all, you could fax them over if you wanted. And you know, it was, it was to the extent that they used to be on a particular cream coloured paper so that they could tell if it was the original copy and things as well. So, you know, now you just log in through your government gateway and it, it's so much easier and it's faster, but they.

They needed that because they knew that the clear amount of work everybody was gonna be doing was gonna go up loads, I mean, I can think of. At least 2 or 3 of the corporates who have their own effectively export arms because they know there's just kind of that much work out well. These certificates I was reading and stuff have gone up, you know, 100% over the last 2 or 3 years, haven't they, and I suppose COVID has helped to digitally transform a lot of businesses, obviously Brexit added into that, so making it fully digital just made sense.

I know when I deal with America sometimes they still ask you to send a fax and I. I say to him, well, I'm gonna really struggle because I haven't really got a fax machine, you know, it's it's kind of very much 20th century technology, isn't it, with the, with the website and everything now. Well, moving on, I think.

You know, obviously I first met you as ABS president. That sounds like it was a really interesting gig, you know, you were obviously at a lot of things. It's a real Aptism into the profession, you understand kind of how the profession works from maybe at the higher level, at the conference level, at, you know, meeting officers from BBA and and places like that.

What, what were maybe a couple of the highlights from ABS presidency? What, what do you remember most fondly about it? Yeah, you know, that feels like a, a huge amount of time ago I guess with COVID having happened since and the sheer amount of stuff that you, you learned kind of in your first year and doing the certificate, but some of the notable things definitely, I ran the first ever student run session at London Vet show in in 2018, I think that was a real.

Personal highlight, but also I think that. Has opened a lot of doors and a bit of a legacy almost for AVS. They've been able to be involved with Vetture every year since, as, as a result, and it was a real good chance.

It came off the back of some resources and checklists that we'd surveyed vets in practise and students to help improve kind of structure and experience on EMS. We published an EMS experience paper and and things as well, but actually the important bit for that. With me was, it wasn't just about producing something and talking to students.

It was important to go and talk to the profession as well, and that's why I, I got the session with Vetter and I, you know, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm actually back talking to Vet about something totally different this year. It's a nice relationship that's come out of that. But also with ABS I got the chance to.

Be involved with VDS training, so that's where I met Ebony, and we set up a number of grants to help students access some placements and things as well, which still run, and then I was involved at the ground stages of the graduate outcomes project, sitting on groups there at the Royal College in what became the, Bet GDP and some of the reviews of the day one competencies, and I, I think it's something that I look back on really fondly my time on ABS because it's, it, you know, it, it's a student organisation that's looked on really fondly by the majority of the profession and the fact that our CVS and Vetical Council go out of the way to consult and listen to the student representatives, I think. Speaks volumes about the profession and how much we are always investing in and thinking about the next generations coming through as well, so. I think also it, it, you know, I met you, I met a lot of other people, and it's opened various other kind of doors for me personally as well, and I've, I've had some really good opportunities since as well.

And, you know, when I go and talk to students, it's something I always encourage them to get involved in, . Because the skills that you pick up are, are gonna help you for most of your career. It was interesting you were talking about the VDS training because I think when people qualify now, and certainly if there are issues.

Quite often it's not about. You know, they didn't know how to do a bitch bay or a catch bay, but it's actually those as we call them, soft skills, communication skills, which obviously the BDS training is helping with. So, has, has that been a big plus how many sort of scholarships do the students get from the BDS training that the students perhaps listening in?

Yeah, so, I know it's, it's evolved since I sort of started doing it in 2018, but when, when we set them up, we were funding, we funded 6 for various two week placements, but since then. Subsequent AVS presidents have been involved in setting up, BDS now has like a student club and they have far more involvement with students to, to really kind of reinforce kind of the, the value of the, the soft skills, and I think it, you know, it, it's difficult. I think when you're a vet school, there's so much to learn and the pressure of people always feel is on.

Learning all the clinical stuff and really kind of locking in those skills as well in the day on competencies, but actually, I read a paper recently in the vet record from some of the farm clinicians at Bristol, so people like Sarah Bailey, Sarah Wood, they'd done a a Delphi study of farm practitioners about the skills that they actually wanted new graduates to have when they came to join compared to what students thought they'd be expected to do. And I think this is really important that. Students understand that very much if people hire a new grad, very much the profession is, seeing that as an investment and that they will train them and things, and almost the best thing you can do is to be as good as you can at the, Kind of the essentials, so taking a good history, active listening, communicating well, communicating professionally, clinical exams probably by far your most important clinical skill, and I know we, we've got a webinar coming up on that, I think, haven't we, for, for sheep and things because.

Yeah. And that's where the VDS training side is so good. I think that they, they really champion the, the, the non-clinical skills, I think I'd rather call them than than soft skills.

Personally, I, I think it's, it, it's just as important, and actually, yeah, as you say, normally that if you're gonna find a problem, normally it's. It's probably about how you communicated or or what you did or didn't say rather than probably what you actually did. Yeah.

No, exactly. And obviously, you know, through that, obviously ABS involvement, you know, how vets are finding it when they come into the profession, we, we'll have to talk about that thorny issue of retention. It, it is that sort of status, is it becoming a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy that we say to people, well, you know, after 5 years, some of you will have left.

You know, we look at some of the forums and they can be a bit negative. Are we in danger of actually making the profession sound worse than it is, cause, you know, obviously there are some really not great stories and you know, when I qualified, I, you know, two years which went were difficult for me, . But you know, I managed to get through and I I was determined, you know, to enjoy my career because it was something I'd wanted to do since I was 8.

So how, how are we standing on that, do you think, is, is that going to be an area that improves and, you know, how can we maybe help in that improvement, what are your tips, maybe coming from that side of, you know, a young graduate, if I can, if I can call you that. I'm glad you still think I'm young, I'm 30 this year, so. But absolutely, you know, so my, my year, we're, we're 4 years graduated now and yes, I've, I've got some friends that aren't in clinical practise anymore.

I guess part of the question becomes on. How you view retention, so are we retaining somebody that is using their degree but is . A veterinary advisor in the field for a for a pharmaceutical company for instance what we saying that we're not retaining somebody if they're just not in clinical practise, so I've got some friends that are now working for vet schools and things as well, and that obviously has, Huge reach and huge benefit for the profession because they are encouraging the next people coming through, but, but yes, I've also got friends that, And Working in anything that's sort of veterinary or veterinary adjacent, I've got a couple of people in my year didn't, didn't go into clinical practise at the start and did various things, .

I do agree with you that there's maybe a bit of a Not a problem, but a bit of a, a challenge perhaps that we have where we, We talk about it and we, we mention a lot that people may well not stay in the profession for that long, but I think again we need to maybe look at how we're quantifying that and actually say, is it just that they're not staying in clinical practise and actually we do need vets to go and do other things as well. Obviously David, you know, I've done that, I had sort of. 20 years in practise, then, you know, a further 6 just doing my dermatology along with Webinar bet, and I, you know, I still consider myself very much, you know, a part of the profession.

I do an occasional shift to help a couple of practises out, but you know, broadly, I'm not in practise anymore. But I, I, you know, I absolutely agree with you. I think it, we obviously need to have vets going to work at university, going to work in the pharmaceutical industries to make sure that animal welfare is, You know, top of the list of these companies, obviously for them to go out and give technical advice to, you know, out in the field.

So we have to look at it holistically, don't we? But I suppose the for me the, the retention is if they actually, you know, are no longer involved in, in any aspect of veterinary, yeah, would be a loss to be like a churn. I think for me, the other thing.

That was becoming really. Apparent to me in the last sort of 1218 months since I've been in practise. I Some of the problem I think is there's no clear Sort of Roadmap or progression perhaps potentially and and in a way I think that's good because you can very much shape your career how you want, but I think now that we know that, Such a huge percentage of graduates are going to join the graduate scheme, which is very structured year 1, possibly years 1 and 2.

It's interesting to see. How practises, corporates are dealing with. Supporting people once you come off their graduate scheme, some of that structure's gone, and I guess supporting people make the next steps, like, I know I'm, I've always been quite interested in the business and business development side as well, but it is interesting that you, There's not a a.

Particular roadmap or necessarily progression route to get to clinical director and some of those other, other kind of opportunities and now that we are, and I think it is good, I think we're moving away from a view that. Everything, whether it's salary or promotion or whatever comes with you it's qualified, I think, we are maybe moving more towards looking at the skills people can bring and experiences, which is good, but, but also, You know, I think once you hit 345 years qualified, you do start thinking. OK, what, where, where might this lead me, what's next?

Because you've, you know, you've nailed all your year one skills in your first year, second year, you're really getting confident with everything, and then you, then you start to think, OK, am I interested in management? Is there something I might want to do down the line? Do I want to do a certificate?

Do I want to do an internship? And I think that. That kind of Not that there should be one clear route that you have to go on, but I think there could be more work done to look at sort of road mapping and talking about.

How you can get to various places or these are the kind of skills that you need, and there were 9 million different ways you can collect them, but actually, I, I feel like quite often it's a bit hands off and a bit like, OK, we've got a clinical director there. We don't need to think about who's coming through in that practise because we've got to out and we'll worry about that problem when they retire, but if there's no progression. That's also very easily when people leave and.

Yeah, you know, and it's interesting, some practises now I saw a a farm practise that a friend works at, they are clearly thinking about this cos they've gone out to recruit for a, assistant clinical director, as a, as a new job that they've not had before with a view. That they would take somebody who maybe who doesn't have all the skills to be a clinical director, but they will work with the current clinical director over the next 2 to 4 years I'd say, and then you know that CD might retire because they are, they were a partner that sold the practise however many years ago, and that I think we need to look at that more because I feel like. Sometimes we are victims of a system that will offer you leadership training or management training once you've got the job and you are a clinical director, but actually there's an argument of shouldn't we train people before they get the job so that they don't crash and burn when they take it.

I think it's a really good point because obviously doctors. Have a much more of a structured progression if we use doctors as probably a similar example, but then I suppose also, you know, if, if a doctor says I'm going to go for 2 years in Australia, you know, my experience speaking to them is, is that's often frowned on because they're then losing their position and so on. So, as you say, it's a pro and a con, isn't it?

And I always talk in a sense with veterinary, it's always been good. You know, you can, as you say, almost make your own curriculum once you qualify, and you know, perhaps moving on finally, you, your curriculum has veered more towards sheep than er than mine did, although I must admit I used to love my doing the lambings and things, so it is something I, I miss, you know, around Easter and things. But that's obviously an area that, that you've got interested in, and you've, you've been in, you're in the process of doing your cert AVP at the moment, but I know obviously you've done a few webinars for us which have been well received.

And I have to now be careful because of course every webinar that is on the internet at the moment is talking about AI meaning artificial intelligence. But of course you're into a slightly different AI aren't you? Yeah, yeah, so I, I set up Midlands Advanced Breeding Service in 2021, and yeah, we do AI as in artificial insemination, .

And that, that was, for me, a really good example of what you can do as a farm practise by listening to kind of the farmers that you work with and the, the nice level of involvement that you get with their businesses. A lot of clients were sort of asking about it, some pedigree, some others, and then I. Have an interest in business development, I went away and did the research, wrote a business pitch and pitched it to, to IBC to, to invest, and and help me set up the service and that.

Also then gave me a level of progression and. You know, managing that service, but also, you know, not many people offer laparoscopic artificial insemination of sheep, and so it is nice that it's . It's a real USP and it's something that absolutely, I think, also brings in other she clients to our practise.

And then I grew the service to incorporate, semen analysis, pre-breeding exams, synchronisation advice. And the other big thing in, in farm vetting at the moment is growing what we can do with vet tech. And you know, I've been able to bring in a vet tech service there looking at application of synchronisation devices and things for farmers because it's normally in the summer when the farmers are really busy.

So if we can bring out techs that aren't as expensive as as vet on a. Holy rate, it, it's win-win for both our practise and the farmer. But yeah, it's, it's really interesting to look at what we can do with advancing the breeding season, looking at improving scanning and lambing percentages as a result, and also, .

What we can do in terms of kind of genetic kind of improvement as well, and I think we are now being, Getting nearer with RA Compare and some of the other things that we could look to get nearer to what we've been doing with the dairy industry with looking at PLIs and EBVs in a totally different way on the cheap side, because we're starting to get more of that genetic data from the RAMs, and with AI as well, I think there are some real opportunities. That it's He works sometimes it's about. Like it sometimes lagged a bit behind what what farm bets have done on the dairy.

I think the focus has always been dairy side, and it's been nice to be in what was a big, still is a big dairy practise, but to really bring on the sheep side, that side of the business and engage the rights as well. How many AI services, you know, in the country for just for sheep? .

Just for sheep Under 10 probably. So it's very much as you say, the dairy was being Much advanced on that. Yeah, and I, I think the thing is, and the thing that probably lets us run it as well to an extent is.

It, it has to be done by a vet, so we've not got companies like Genus or CMEt being able to go around, operate out of the back of a van and go in AI huge amounts of clients across the country very quickly and also, I guess farmers can't do it themselves, so a lot of our cattle clients, what we're doing is we're. Running AI training courses and training the farmers to AI their own cattle, whereas, you know, that's not something that they that they can do with sheep, but also helping them synchronise and, and also, you know, the latest study showed that about 26% of rams actually fall into this subfertile or infertile category, and for me the other massive growth is what we're doing to better understand semen quality, . How likely successful rounds are, at achieving the targets that they should be in things, and I think it's making people look at the more joined up picture rather than, oh well I just put the tops in on bonfire night and then we'll scan and then we'll lam what we will lamb actually, you know, looking at what we can do to improve lambing and scanning percentages, and I think the benefit is.

It's actually lots of wood, while the, while the lab price is quite good, it's a good time for us to be going out and talking to farmers about. What they can do to improve fertility in their flocks because they're going to see any investments pay off because the price is good, and we also know that if they lamb early, they might get as much as 21% more than conventional lambing. So if 5% of that extra 21% goes on.

Synchronisation or advancement but still making an extra 15%. Yeah, that makes sense, and this is where it's nice. You know, from a business perspective, you know, you're talking about you want to get more involved in business and business is all about metrics, whatever you are selling, but obviously with the veterinary side, we've got that little bit of a pastoral care for the animal as well I suppose, haven't we?

Yeah, absolutely, and it's, it's nice that you can. Balance of the two, you know, it's definitely why I really enjoy working in, in the livestock sector, because, yes, you can, you know, I get to go and do the individual animal welfare, you know. Kind of these treatment side, but I also get to sit down with clients who might la 1000, 4000 views and look at the bigger picture and the data, and, you know, you say the metrics and the benchmarking, because I really like that side as well, and that is where you feel like you are having a business to business relationship and really improving.

You know, benchmarks and therefore that farm business' profitability. Is the other side that I really enjoy, as well as the individual animal side, it's nice to have this. Opportunities to get involved in both.

David, as always, it's great to listen to you. Those of you who perhaps haven't heard David's, talks do go over to the webinar vet. We'll make sure that we put those links on.

If you remember, obviously we'll be able to see those otherwise, you know, do speak to us about access or buying them as individual webinars, but, yeah, it's always good to have you on, David, and to chat to you. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking to David just before London er not London Vet show, BVA Live. Oh my goodness, so many conferences and names.

Are you at BBA Live, David? Yeah, I'm, I'm going down, obviously I was lucky to be named on the 30 under 30 list last year, so they've invited the whole 30 under cohort, 30 under 30 cohort along to BVA Live as well. So yeah, it'll be, it'd be nice to network and meet a few faces there as well.

Fantastic. Well, hopefully we will see each other then, but thank you so much for, for speaking to me. Thanks everyone for listening.

This is Anthony Chadwick and this has been another episode of Vet Chat. Take care, bye bye.