Thank you very much indeed, and, thank you for tuning in tonight, . Hopefully we had a shorter day than I did, but it's been a long one. So we see how we get on here, .

And I'm especially terrified tonight because we actually got some technology, some sounds and video in tonight. And, I'm especially worried because actually I know it went wrong this afternoon it had to be rewritten, so fingers crossed, second time lucky. .

So we're doing cardiac disease. The title a little bit of a cheat. I'll tell you why in a moment.

. The, it's always used to have references with this, and it's a fairly effective probably in mammals is a very new field and developing all the time. And a lot of what we're going to touch on tonight, will be covered in, in many of these texts. I'd highly recommend using these, where when dealing with, potential cardiac patients, a lot of useful information there.

And this is an area where I really can't pretend to have much expertise, and it is a good, good place to, Really bringing images, and spinal conditions with a lot more specialised knowledge, to help out with certainly the imaging and the technology used with this. But really the aim of tonight's talk is to sort of show you what you can do in practise with small mammals. Heart disease is on the increase pre as a pre-mortem diagnosis.

It's one of things we always used to diagnose post-mortem, or strongly suspect. But now we probably would be You know, we, we, we pick up a lot more before that stage, which is great. And that means we can now try and treat it, and we get some success and some not.

And that that develops all the time. So But the way we're doing this diagnostic is going to is actually also using what we use in practise for small animals. And hopefully I'm gonna show you tonight is not necessarily how to be an ultrasographer because I don't think I teach anybody how to do that because I can't even teach myself how to do that properly.

But how to use the tools and the people within your practise to help you with your small mammal cases. So that's the idea. As I said, it's, it's supposed to be about rabbits and rodents that we can do a fair bit of ferrets in here as well, because ferrets get a lot of heart disease.

But again, generalities. If you're doing a ferret, think cat, you know, how do you deal with a cat with with with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? Well, ferrets very, very similar indeed, and you can follow many of the same principles and diagnostics and then helps with that and therapeutic things, and that really works well as well.

For small herbivores, for example, rats, and this picture down here is a ferret with a very large globular heart, very typical of cardiomyopathy, and this is a rat. Again, heart enlargement we've got some nice, pulmonary edoema there as well. And small herbivores get heart disease too, and really so we can talk about guinea pigs in this, and you can, you can actually use some of the same sort of techniques and criteria as you would for guinea pigs there.

And it really important with the rats, Side of it because we see a lot of chronic respiratory disease and certainly the older rats. If the conventional stuff isn't working, this we go to turn to your imaging. Don't just try another antibiotic, actually image them and you'll find a few of those cases are actually cardiac disease rather than respiratory infections.

OK, so what are the clinical signs of cardiac disease in our small mammals? Well, occasionally dyne, but actually that's relatively uncommon. You should see reduced excise tolerance.

But then again, for most of these animals they're either not observed or they can be nocturnal, or they can spend a lot of time just sat in a corner anyway or sat in their hiding places. So it can be quite hard, a little bit like doing with cats, to actually say what is reduced excise tolerance. Certainly if you get an animal who is, Blatantly doing less than did before, then start to worry about it.

And suddenly you start getting collapsing animals, you get syncope and things like that, that can also be a sign of heart disease. I mentioned death, you know, sudden death, things like that can certainly be be heart-related. We're hoping to get some before that.

Probably the biggest clinical sign I would see certainly in rabbits, is weight loss and This is one of the things that they got older middle aged old rabbit. I'm seeing weight loss, then I'll start thinking heart disease all the way through. And the reason for that is, and here's a CT of a rabbit chest.

If you look at the size of this heart, and this is basically where the trachea is running somewhere there's we've got to be room for an oesophagus too. I think for many of these animals, it's just a sheer difficulty in getting food past that heart leads him to become anorexic and then then weight loss. One of the other sides we see, which is again pretty, pretty much a ringer for this, is, in guinea pigs, which is ventral edoema.

And this is a, a pitting edoema very often for occurring on ventrum as the name suggests, I often see it from the chin right the way down the ventral abdomen. And we get this fluid filling and so it's pitting, sometimes not. And that really is a marker sign you've got heart disease.

. Some are responsive, some are not. Certainly a pitting stage, I think you really have got to advise people with a very guarded prognosis indeed. But some do quite well with diuresis.

We're going to talk about therapy right at the end of this. So diagnostics, well, you know, it's like anything else with heart disease. So we do examinations, we take histories and hopefully some clues in that.

We can listen, well that can be quite hard. We do imaging, we do radiography, autonography, CTF available. I'm gonna talk a bit about ECG as well.

Very start of my career, I did a lot of dog and cat ECG, so I was really into that. And it's, it's really quite useful. Many principles are exactly the same as doing dog and cat ECG or maybe some slightly different equipment.

Now, for a lot of these things, you're going to have to anaesthetize a cardiac rabbit or cardiac guinea pig or whatever else there. The diagnostics, but also you might be picking this up on say pre-anesthetic check or or wanting to at least say something else there. So what do you do?

We all know these guys are quite risky under anaesthetic supposedly, but they're not quite as, quite as bad as they can be. I hope you've heard on previous webinars. But with the we've got known heart disease, do we simply not give them anaesthesia.

That has implications in many other places. Some of the diagnosis isn't that clear. We may get get more about it may do monitoring.

We may need to do other procedures, in the older rabbit, which are quite important. So we can certainly be wary. Can we really say that?

Can we really say, say no geneshesia or or do we have to build that in. If we are going to do anaesthesia, would you just say just do you see the fluorine or isoflurane for guinea pigs and use gas only. It kind of effects on blood pressure, quite profound effects, but of course, it is blown out straight away and it's not going to be, these drugs are not going quite so, cardiac depressant as say using alpha2s and stuff.

And certainly, I would avoid that type of, combination. We can use sedatives if we want to, so like a midazolam plus an opiate, and a rabbit can be very effective. And you just do minor procedures like X-rays or scanning or a slightly jumpy rabbit, that can be quite an effective little combination to use, it's gonna be relatively not affect that heart.

Whatever you do when you want to do something, you've got to consider that risk benefit and obviously with heart disease present or known heart disease present, that risk is much higher. So therefore the benefits going to derive has to be that much greater to justify doing that procedure and always doing that. If you're going to do something, keep the procedure, procedures as short as possible, and to basically back dental preparation, everything else there, and we must be that much stronger about supporting the patient.

Be a little bit more careful using IV fluids for a start, you know, because you don't want to overwhelm with the circulation system, but, you know, by lots of fluid subcutaneously other other ways. Keep them warm, do, do the feeding, make sure that patient really has a stress-free a time as possible, because whatever you do, don't get the adrenaline levels up and add that into the equation with the heart disease. And always, always discuss the risk with the owners, make sure they're fully informed, make sure they're fully understanding as much as possible about what risk you're actually taking with them.

So, back to our diagnostics, we got ausculate and how rewarding is this? Well, you know, it's not great, because most of these guys have, myopathies. They don't often have valvular disease.

We see a couple of volt sentiment with some valve changes where you would hear something, but very often you'll hear nothing at all because they don't have that type of type of disease. They often have very rapid heart rates that can make, this rhythmia slightly hard to pick up as well. So, Yeah, Oscarta for sure, pick up lung disease that way, concurrent things that way.

And so as you said, if you do hear a murmur, regard that as significant. Certainly our stage of knowledge right now is less known about physiological murmurs and stuff. The big deal when you look at these guys examination is don't forget to watch the patterns of breathing before you start handling them, before you start putting stethoscope on them, and be very aware of increased breathing patterns.

And some very observant owners will actually be able to tell you about that beforehand. And if you are listening, for sort of a smaller rabbits and rodents and stuff, use a very small stethoscope head, so be using the, infant stethoscopes rather than the full, adult size. So this is a rabbit, with, with, with, with a heart murmur.

I'll just play this now. Hope that's coming through. And if you get the rate is fairly constant.

It's quite good like that. We have some breathing noise over the top. And that's a pretty loud murmur, and I wish I could say they're all like that.

They're most certainly not. Most of them are very soft if you've got something at all. And again, really important that you're using a very quiet room.

Then again, you're examining some rabbits and small rodents, you probably should have a quiet room anyway. So listening stuff, we often do imaging with suspicious something because that's our standard thing we go to. If you're doing radiography can always do two views and really important spec-raying is those front legs are pulled right forward, so you're not getting superimposition of the legs and the muscles over the chest and particularly over the cranial thorax where the heart's lying.

That's really important. And the book here, which is Cropfo Junggen's book, Diagnostic Iaging Exotic pets, is the one I've Sorry John, just want to interrupt you, the slide hasn't advanced onto the radiography. OK, that's exciting.

It did a run through, didn't it? Do you want to stop sharing and restart? That worked last time.

Yeah, let's try, let's try that. OK, guys. Just be a couple of minutes, just be a couple of seconds while we get this all back online.

These pe pesky noise, pesky videos, pesky videos. I'll be back now, can you see? Yeah, I can see that.

That's brilliant. Yeah, perfect. Thank you very much and continue.

Thank you. Sorry about that. I I I this has been terrifying me all day.

In fact, most of the week has been terrifying me this one. Anyway, so basically this book, imaging exotic pets, I would really, really recommend . Not only because it's got a biggest range of species of most of these books.

It's a big book too. It's got a lot of data into that too, a lot of this group were very interesting heart disease. And there's a lot of, stuff as well on, normal ultrasography and also on, CT as well.

So it's a really good all-round book and of all the sort of imaging atlases, this is probably the biggest, most complete one. And I would thoroughly recommend it if you're going to do any sort of chest work, in small mammals. A range of space as well.

And now I'm having problems. OK, now it's working again. His rabbit sharing positioning I normally use.

I normally try to get my legs a little bit straighter than that on a rabbit, again trying to centre normally just a little bit further forward just behind the scapulae, and similar for dorsal ventral much easier positioning, have the legs pulled forward and out and sort of slightly outwards to get them out of the way for for that chest imaging. So that's quite useful. And again, bear in mind that relatively normal rabbit is we look at a heart shadow, and yes, it's facing a long way.

And we can, we can have a look at, look at the size here. We can measure it, we can see roughly shape there, and we can see the lung passing as well. We should try and get as little super in position as possible from these front legs, which really helps as you see that size.

This is a guinea pig, not a rabbit, but again, we want to try and get a spine straight as possible, superimposed on the sternum, and, and get as clear a view as you can of that, that of the lung feels and of the heart. And we get an enlargement, hopefully you can see here, this is, a very globby heart and a rabbit. And don't forget to always say things too, so a little bit arthritis in the spine here.

So that'll be a pain implication might also affect breathing patterns. So can be where other things apart from just the heart and the chest when you look at these cases. So you've got a nice round heart here.

The other important thing too is a rabbit's trachea doesn't run straight down. It always does deviate upwards a bit with this lack of space in the chest. But here we can see it's really is just below the spines running virtually parael spine.

That's a big clue that's been deviated dorsally. And again, we can see the lung patterning here as well. So this is pretty obvious we've got heart enlargement.

In some cases, not quite so clear, and we can start using things like vertical heart scores. And again, important too, this comes into concept also breed differences. So we're looking very often giant rabbits with heart disease, but also the little ones are dwarfs too.

You can get relative difference in chest size and stuff. And the virtual heart score can be quite useful in these cases. It's like a tiebreaker.

It's not very well evaluated in rabbits, and when it is used, you generally use the same sort of rules as dogs and measuring from the start of T4. But, and it does seem to be OK, but it needs a bit more data on that. It has been evaluated ferrets and does seem to work in the same way as, as, as in dogs and cats.

So not an absolute answer, but can be really, really useful to you if you're not quite sure. And guinea pigs, again, back to this picture again. Again, you're looking at very round heart, you're looking at sort of degree of, very lung space, or volume at hearts taking up there.

And again, some cases like this are fairly obvious that we've got a, we've got a carddiomegaly or increased cardiac silhouette. And we'll go to oxography in a moment, but one thing I would stress in guinea pigs in particular, seeing a relatively large number of heart-based tumours. So again, don't just take a large heart as being, cardiac disease.

There are other differentials as well. So autonography. So you see the large heart now you want to see what that's made up of, what that's what that's gonna gonna have in it.

Is it pure heart? Has it got a pericardial effusion? Have we got a heart-based tumour?

Have we got something else apart from that? And if we have got an enlarged heart, have we got a dilated cardiomyopathy? Have we got hypertrophic?

Have we got a focal hypertrophic, what, what sort of problems we got going on there? It's relatively easy technique in these guys, but you do need a small foot plate on your, probe, because generally I'll either image up through the liver. I do like them see our first scan to be a sedate anaesthetized just for stillness monitoring and I often will do, do them, especially quiet ones conscious.

I do like relatively still I can get some initial, idea of what's happening. But often clip a window, you do need to clip a window because of a type of fur. And, plenty of jealousy always recommend that.

And either go up through the liver or more usually try to go through ribs. That's why it's really important to have a very small foot plate because there's not a lot of space between the ribs down there. And we can get normal images, we can get, we can interpret roughly the same way as everything else.

This is where your, your diagnostic atlas comes in with your normals and there's more is published every year, which is great for us. Both these show, pericardial effusion. So here's our ventricular wall we're measuring, and we can see the effusion on the outside of it.

This is one of the guinea pigs did have a heart-based tumour you can see fluid around the outside of this part of the heart. So, You know, we can get those, of course, you can put needles in you can try and tap them very carefully under the guidance or we use your diagnostic things again like for on cap is smaller and a little bit more careful with fiddly. Again, we can get a long, long section.

We can start measuring like we, we would in every other species too. Ignore the writing. I just didn't change the algorithm on the, ultrasound.

Yes, you should. This is why I'm not sonographer, so it's not a kidney. And, I just we measure it from there and start doing that.

But you can measure these things, try and use a sort of standards you would in a dog or cat, try and get the same angles you can, and then at least you're comparing like with like, which should be a lot better. And of course, second part of tonight's terrace see some moving images. We can start evaluing valves, we start seeing the contractility of the heart and how that's working and stuff and start seeing valveul lesions if they are there, or we can start, seeing, some relative contractility of a function of the heart if we're very lucky.

We do same sort of thing in guinea pigs, And again, same sort of angle, same sort of measurements, same mistake with the algorithm again here. And, and again, back to our books and normals, is that correct? Is it not correct?

And colour Doppler can be useful. I haven't we use M mode as well. I, I find that seeingly difficult to understand.

But again, Mmode normals are up there. And again, if you can get those correct angles, if you've got a good scanner who can do those for you, again, that's gonna add a serious data into your contractility, evaluations and into your monitoring and stuff. And the kind of Doppler really helps as well in evaluating the type of flow, and whether you've got something like linear flow, if you've got turbulence, if you've got problems, especially around the valves and stuff, and again, it can be really, really useful, set of imaging.

You see a bit more of that in the moment. And again, guinea pigs goes nice transverse section here again, I think I see a few more valvul lesions in these guys, and this one I'm thinking you see a really odd thickening around the, the valve area here. Again, we can see we're perfectly obvious why we're gonna have so very turbent flow we're gonna have suicides of heart failure with that, with that particular animal.

And again, from the alternative view for a long section, again, we can see this area here as the valve is opening and shutting around it. So, you know, we, we do get these things, similar to dogs and cats. We do get, we can use same imaging modalities and we can interpret in very similar way.

So ECG, which is probably one little bit more about that, but again, it's probably rather underused. I think it's really underused in everything. It can be really, really useful.

One thing with these guys is that they have, very rapid heart rates, and they have very, very small complexes being small, small creatures apart from ferrets have enormous complexes. The rabbits and guinea pigs are from really like a small complexes. So you do need a very sensitive monitor.

You do need to be somewhere away from main time or using digital ECG where I, not only can you actually increase your sensitivity, you can also slow it, so you can actually use these very rapid heart rates have to have 50 millimetre a second paper. And of course, you can start filtering out, the mains hum. But again, beware of that.

It's too easy to use our philtres. And if you, the more you philtre, the more of your actual real data you take out as well. Just be a little bit careful on that, and try if possible to be in as, A room as free from electric hummers you can get, which is tricky in this modern age.

The other thing I would certainly say with, with rabbits and guinea pigs, they're quite sensitive creatures, and the a traumatic eclipse really help with these guys. Using a full crocodile clips, they don't like it one shot. And also some of them you get skin tearing and stuff.

This is the case it's actually a pioderma case, by the way. So don't worry, it's not skin tearing with clips. These are a traumatics, and they work much better with that.

In some places we're certainly very precur area rabbits have very fatty skin. It can be a little bit difficult to get a clip to stay on. And the other factor too, of course, is, is beloved rabbit fur, which gums everything up and makes contact quite tricky as well.

So again, you probably need to do a bit of clipping and stuff to get, get your bare areas to get the contact properly. So what do we get? Well, this is the case I just want to show you one which did actually have known heart disease and start having collapsing episodes while on treatment.

Heart rate about 350 a minute. This is a trace from this rabbit, by the way, can see very small complexes. As you can see, it's irregularly irregular.

It's all over the place. This is absolutely crazy complexes. There's nothing the same on any single one and there's no.

You know, no regularity to it. And this is around about 1 2nd to 1 box. One thing I would be careful about interpreting these guys is a cardiac axis.

There are not normals established, for, small mammals. Probably unreliable enough in dogs and cats, and certainly dogs who tend to use a right lateral, Positioning, I wouldn't do that in small amounts. I try to have them on their, on their ventrum.

They find much stressful. What you don't want to do is you start stress induced rhythmias. And if you're an animal with suspect cardiac disease, you don't want to stress it much at all.

So it's be a bit careful using cardiac access probably just forget it. In this case, we got no clear P waves, . Or nothing even vaguely represent.

I might even say, you know, are those looking like F waves because that's got fluctuation the way through. And this is a case of atrial fibrillation, which is why it started collapsing. What we do this one.

We had it on already had it on diuresis. So we started some bend down. We also had in some atenolol to really get that heart slowed right down.

And this is a trace from about a week later. And we see it's not perfect by any stretch, to get a P wave here in normal complex, and we're getting a little bit here and we're getting some much more normal about a month after that is back nearly to normal. So we can.

If we can get the diagnostic information, we can actually do the therapeutics similar to what we do in our other species. This is an ECG case from a ferret and again, ferrets are much more attractive to do be like. If you can hang them upside down, they, they will hang them right way up rather some hang vertically, they're really tolerate most things.

But this is another sign of, heart disease and ferrets. This this large abdomen. Older ferrets will often, have large abdomens, got very large spleens, .

But that Certainly in kind is very, very often develop aIT, so this all sorts of fluid in there so it should be a bit of a pointer, you might well have heart disease. And here's a hearty sort of ferret. They often do have these very deep rays, by the way, depending which orientation you're looking at them, so they're much larger complexes and rabbits.

So this is the case. This is the one called Chris who's referred to a semi-collapsed and weak, had a long history of breathing problems. And what was interesting, it had one of those, really, really obvious bradycardia, which is really unusual in ferrets and normally beating them, the 10 to a dozen, and they're really going like mad.

And this one had this classic double beat with pit boom, pit boom, pitbit boom. You start remembering some of your college, cardiology. I send it, and we had some really nice thickening of the walls, .

Through here we can see just along here and 2.7 millimetres is quite wide. And certainly again, I'm not a great expert on colour Doppler.

I do know that yellow is not where you want to see a lot of that's a lot of turbulence. So we want nice reds and blues and nicely separated, and this is certainly crazy and there's a lot of turbulence within the heart. We did an ECG.

What we found is apart from one attempted normal beat here, we're actually getting this by Geminiy the whole way through, and it's consistent through that, very slow with byey. And we also really have got no link here between the P waves and the, and, and the QRS. We had a P-wave rate of around 110, and we had a QS about 50.

And this was basically 3rd degree heart but with ventricular by Germany. So it really is quite an unusual case. And this is where talking to cardiologist comes in useful.

For a start, we, we, we, what can we use? Well, most of things we're using to be like to increase contractility is a collapsing ferret. So we'd like to increase contractility.

I can tend to slow the heart. So things like digoxin, things like ban may have a, have a slowing effect, and that we don't want to do in a ferret with a heart rate that low already. We still use diuresis, we can, we can improve circulation that way it's really good.

But we actually add into this on our advice was theophylline. And the reason for that is because what we ideally want to do is obviously pace the heart. But this was an 8 year old ferret with other issues as well.

It's not a great place to go with that. So the offer what it does, it makes the whole thing a bit more excitable. It's like a really strong cup of coffee.

It makes your whole heart rate a bit more excitable. And you really trying to push that that P rate high as possible in the hope that a few more might get through and get a better ventricular rate. So we did that, and this is a month later.

It's decidedly not perfect, but at least we've got a little bit more regularity, and we haven't got by Gemini anymore, which is also quite good. So then the PQS Association, we've now got venture create up to 80. And although we had occasional episodes of weakness, we didn't, we, we, we, we didn't have, The regular collapses we had before.

And we can continue that for another 4 months, with good quality life before things really really stop working well. And so we could have done extra that we we do put a pacemaker in there, which probably worked much better. Unfortunately, again, like all these things is, everything comes back down to quality of life and really we value to a fair it was not quite up to that kind of intervention.

And so we're happy with what we did achieve. So living on therapies really, what can we do? I mentioned diarist a few times and this really is just like in cat medicine or whatever.

This is our mainstay. You know, this is the what we can do, we can actually improve the circulation, we, we can, we can, . We can get rid of excess fluid where we're getting edoema build up, we can certainly help breathing that way too.

Very important to assess renal function beforehand, and make sure what we're doing. And, if you have any data to do some monitoring of renal functions throughout, yes, it's possible to get, get, urine samples, particularly in litter trained, small mammals. With the ferrets and with animals building sites, we can do drainage, and that can be effective, on some occasions, but you got a very big build up and certainly a ferret, you may often get 3 to 400 mLs of acidic fluid, and that's not going to diaries out very easily.

In some cases we use ACE inhibitors, And they can be useful. Typically, I'll be tend to use Benazapril, it's easy to give. I know rabbits tolerate that really well.

Again, warn people about hypertensive states. I've never seen it, but it is listed as being a potential side effects. They do warn people about it.

and, they, they can be they can be a very useful drug. We're using more and more immaendan, just like in other species. The and again, that gets back to take maybe back in step is here.

One thing I would see that all these drugs is That we Not really knowing what the right dose rate is. There are not trials in these. There are some dose rates being produced mainly by experience and usage, but there's very few studies, showing clinical effects, showing plasma levels, showing, frequencies and things like that.

So, In this very early days, especially exotics, especially the range of species we're talking about, is we need to know a little bit more about it. So be very, very careful when dosing. And normally I will start low and build up if I'm any doubt at all, and always communicate this with the owners because again, you don't know what you're doing, and it might just be that these things, things can, can have side effects.

Just be a little bit careful with that. They appear to be so far, touch wood, which I'm doing, is that they appear to be unusual, but do warn people about it. We mentioned about using the often anti these rhythmics.

Again, use the ECG if it's indicated, you can use them. But again, be aware that these drugs are even less well evaluated than the mainstay snippets of pin beans. And I just want to finish on one particularly weird area, which I've seen a couple of times in rabbits, and that is calcification of the main arteries.

I've seen 2 or 3 cases now. I'm really not sure where this comes from. And I see also get spectacular pictures again, they present the classic sort of cardiac signs, and You just the weight loss and not doing well.

And you see the aorta long here is calcified along its whole length, and you see the calcification coming through the the base of the aorta and up around. We look on the 3D reconstruct again, you can see just how well calcified that is all the way along there. And these are cases which So far I've really found to have basically a hopeless prognosis.

Those of course that's OK because you can't dilate those. You can't do a lot about it. Why it's calcifying is really hard to know because We have done postmortem in the past.

We haven't got a lot because the calcium's obscuring everything. Whether this is relating to the overall weird calcium metabolism rabbits, whether this is secondary cell atherosclerosis and cholesterol depositions, I simply don't know. But there are a few out there.

And again, the same to just watch out for picking up on your imaging and seeing what you can find from there. Unfortunately is a very, very bad sign indeed. So basically in summary, heart is out there.

We are recognising pre-mortem more and more and more. So do watch out for that. And the signs are really non-specific, but what you can do is you can investigate them just you would for a dog or a cat, using all your tools from a standard practise is, and the small animal knowledge, it's really good to sort of basically magnify that and bring that small animal knowledge into the exotic field and use that.

If you do have case, if you are working out techniques and stuff, do collect the data and do, do put it out there and publish it. Thank you. Hey, sorry.

Thank you very much, John, for another really interesting talk on on both of cardiac disease in small animals. So I would just like to open up to everyone if anyone has any questions. There's nothing come through at the moment, so I'll just leave that open for a couple of minutes.

So while I've got the opportunity, I'd just like to remind everyone that next Tuesday at 8 o'clock is the final presentation in this. Wonderful four-part exotic series that we, Web and Albert and John have been presenting. And next week we'll, John will be discussing arthritis management in rabbits, which I'm really looking forward to because I have a, an arthritic rabbit myself, so I'll be looking forward to that one.

So at the moment, John, there's no questions come through. So yeah, I think you're off the hook. And I think I think it worked out how little I knew about that, so it's fine.

Absolutely not, no. I, I should be asking questions. Oh, absolutely not.

No, I think, I think you've explained everything well, wonderfully tonight. And so hopefully, well, if anyone does have any questions, I'm sure they can pass them on through to the webinar and on to yourself. So thank you.

Well, thank you very much, John, for this evening, and I will speak to you next week. And thank you everyone, thank you everyone for attending this evening. And I hope to, see you all again next week.

Thank you. Bye. Good night.