Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick for the Webinar vet, and I'm so pleased today we've got Sonia Miles on the podcast with us. We're gonna be talking fish. Pretty cold at the moment, we're doing this in sort of mid December.

We've had a bit of snow coming up and, so I'm, I'm warmly dressed cos it's a bit chilly out. Sonia, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to do it.

And of course, yeah, looking forward to talk talking more fish, but obviously for those foolish people who don't know who you are, Sony, who want to, to want to fill us in with a little bit of a potted history. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for inviting me as well.

It was, it was lovely to receive. So my name's Sonia Mars. I am an RCBS recognised advanced practitioner in zoological medicine, but also I'm a WA VMA certified aquatic species vet as well, which means I see a lot of things.

But also a lot of amphibians and aquatic reptiles as well. Thanks so much for that, Sonia. Is there a danger that we as vets are not taking our responsibility to fish seriously enough and therefore leaving it to other people to get involved in the treatment of exotic aquarium fish?

Potentially, I mean, there's definitely, obviously there's there's vets like me out there that have kind of worked really, really hard to increase our knowledge of aquatic species. We've done extra certificates. There's even talk of a specialism and stuff in fish coming out as well.

So I think there's a subset of vets out there that are putting in the extra effort, but also, I do. Get a lot of fish that have fish clients that have approached other practises and gone, we don't touch fish, sorry, go somewhere else, and that have just completely refused in some instances to see fish patients, but that that does go for all exotic species as well, to be perfectly honest. I still get plenty of cases that contact us and have told that.

A practise doesn't see exotic animals when the reality of it is that we are obliged to see all animals and help them certainly in an emergency capacity. So I think it's a bit of a mixed bag with aquatic species. There are definitely vets out there and I'm a mentor for 3 vets now that are actually doing the same qualifications as me, .

So it's becoming more and more commonplace that's out there are looking to be savvy when it comes to exotic species in general, but also the aquatic side of them as well. I suppose part of the problem is it's, it's not given a a major amount of time at university to start with, is it? No, if any time, to be perfectly honest, I think I had some basic anatomy and physiology of aquatic species.

I certainly didn't have any amphibian coverage, but certainly some aquatic reptiles and some fish. I definitely talked about gills. In physiology, but that was it at university.

And I know that there are some universities out there that do much, much better than others. So obviously, you've got Edinburgh University, you've got the Royal Veterinary College, they've actually got specific exotic departments. But even Nottingham and Surrey universities, some of the newest universities are doing substantially better than some of the older ones as well.

But High Croft. We take in a substantial amount of students and the basic knowledge for exotics varies widely between the universities. And one reason that they come specifically to see EMS with us is for the aquatics, because even at the universities that are doing it well, they still get very minimal.

And there's a lot of goldfish out there that will come to a first opinion practise looking for help. And of course, these are not . Animals that have no value, koi carp can be worth thousands of pounds, can't they, so they are.

But even from a monetary perspective, but obviously all pets are that we value pets the same whether you spend 5 pounds on a goldfish or 1000 pounds on a dog, you can still be very attached to that particular animal, can't you? Absolutely, and I've, I've got some koi keepers that aren't really that bothered. And in comparison, I've got somebody who puts a great deal of monetary value.

The small goldfish that they have spent a significant amount of time with. So I find it, I find a lot of people assume that, let's say, for example, a small goldfish isn't going to be loved and cared for affectionately, when actually, that's not my experience. I mean, of course, there are people out there that goes, oh, it's just a fish, I'll go get another one.

But that could be said for any species of of animal. And I've got some that have spent substantial amount of of Money, time, care have taken on board everything that I've got to say for something that would have historically, well, it's just a goldfish, but it's not to them. And it's not to to me and other vets like me that that put in a substantial amount of effort to offer them the best services as well, but quite absolutely, I mean, some fish could be worth tens of thousands of pounds, so it can become quite substantial in some instances.

And I remember when I first qualified, I, one of the first cases I saw was a an unwell guinea pig. And of course this fazed me a little bit until I thought, well, actually it's just another animal, and if you apply first principles of taking a decent history of examining it, you know, at whatever level you can do that, that. With the knowledge that we have, we can transfer that across between species.

Sometimes I think there is a, oh my goodness, I've never seen a fish before, therefore, how can I treat it, whereas. They get the same sort of diseases as dogs and cats get, they get bacterial infections, they get fungal infections, they get parasitic problems, etc. Etc.

So in some ways it's just about having a logical approach as well. You obviously need the knowledge, you know, you need, you need this logical approach, don't you? Yeah, absolutely, and I do find that obviously being.

A referral clinician as well, just exotics in general, ignoring it, the aquatic side of things. I do find that a lot of first principles sometimes go out the window with with panic. But you're you're exactly right.

First principles do apply. You do need extra knowledge. So obviously with fish, they they are their environment.

They are what they live in. So a substantial proportion of the things that we deal with are linked to the Environment and the water cycle and ammonia, nitrites, nitrates. It's complicated to get your head around, but once you've kind of nailed the basics, it's all linked.

So I think the first principles are very much important, but so it's kind of like a basic knowledge as well. But at least knowing, OK, if I can't deal with it, at least I can take a clinical history, I can perform a basic. A clinical examination, and then I can find a vet out there to point my client in the direction of that actually maybe know does know a little bit more and referrals never a failure, is it?

It's always an option for a client. And I think referral is also a way of learning, isn't it? We can actually do CPD through taking that case, sending it off to somebody like yourself, and then hopefully following it up with letters and.

You learn and you probably maybe don't need to send that sort of case again because you've learned from from doing, having you or passing it on. Well, exactly, and that's certainly what I, I hope to obtain with the referral letters that that I send on, and I'll provide them the referral clinicians with kind of routes of CPD that they might find useful care sheets, fact sheets, etc. That are free to download.

But also, my department. Myself and my colleagues, we offer a free advice service for vets and nurses as well. So now it's becoming more known that we're more than happy to see aquatic species.

We've got vets that are out there that will email us with information and ask questions so they can help their clients, and that's a free service as well for for vets and nurses. It's just, I won't give out free advice to clients because obviously I need to see the patient. Yeah, and I suppose .

With goldfish and koi, what would you say were perhaps the three conditions that you see most commonly? Mm. In Koi, it's definitely ulcer disease, so, ulcers for various different reasons, but we see a lot of parasites which obviously going forward can cause ulcer disease but have various different other effects as well.

I take a lot of lumps of goldfish, but I would say that, yeah, lumps, ulcerative disease for various different reasons. And a lot of the time, just general changes as a result of poor environment. Certainly the goldfish that that I deal with fish that are overstocked, but those that owners quite frankly just don't know how to deal with the filtration systems.

It's incredibly common for me to see a goldfish that is just unwell, maybe has some buoyancy problems or dropsy. Started to swell, and the owners go, well, I keep the the the the tank sparkling clean. I change the water every single week.

I, I run the philtre medium underneath the tap like it's beautifully clean, and actually they don't realise that tap water and running a philtre underneath the tap knocks off all of that good bacteria and essentially, you're keeping that fish in an incredibly toxic environment which has an effect, moving down the line. So, I think even from an owner perspective, certainly from various different pet shops, for example, they might not necessarily be made aware of the basics that they need to understand. And that obviously has a knock-on effect, but I would say that the environmental problems as a result of poor water quality, lumps, and ulcer disease in Kuwait, they're probably the the top three that I will, we'll see in practise.

And I think this is really interesting, you know, animal husbandry is. Such an important element, isn't it? If you keep your animals in good conditions, then you will have less disease and their welfare is probably also better as well.

Yeah, without a doubt, absolutely, and I, I think that. I'm maybe see a very skewed proportion of aquatic species because those that have taken the time to seek out an aquatic specialist, aquatic species vet and are willing to pay for a consult fee are probably already doing things quite well to start with. And that, that might be a sweeping generalisation, but that's certainly the experience that I've got.

I would say that those that maybe aren't doing things particularly brilliantly are maybe more inclined not to. And find an aquatic species vet and spend how much for a consult. So I think that I do see a very skew proportion of my clients do tend to be doing things very, very well.

But I still see the odd one that does tell me, yeah, and I scrub my philtre clean and making sure it's, it's sparkling, and I could literally eat off the inside of the tank when actually the reality of that is that's probably quite a toxic environment for those aquatic species to be living in from ammonia and nitrites and nitrates point of view. What, what do you feel is the, is the sort of welfare standard for perhaps aquarium type fish and then for farmed and. Wild fish, what, what do you think the welfare standard is like at the moment?

I think they probably differ quite substantially between the two. I mean, my, my experience of, of pet goldfish koi in the small aquariums that I work with, the aquariums have got incredibly dedicated people that work there that spend a substantial amount of time with. The fish, the animals within their care, they put a lot of effort into making sure that that their welfare is top notch.

I mean, I went and visited the National Marine Aquarium the other week and they were talking about all the enrichment training and stuff that they do with some of their their fish as well it's absolutely fascinating to to have a discussion with it. But there is no question that there is certainly welfare. Complicated issues when it comes to kind of like farming fish and and how we're able to do that and it's certainly a hot topic at the moment, let alone the talk of kind of like importing fish for pet trade and all that sort of stuff as well.

I would say that in my experience and from my understanding of it, there are definitely welfare concerns with, with Farmed fish and importing live fish for the pet trade, but in comparison to kind of pet fish and aquariums, I would say that the welfare standards are probably better in comparison, but that being said, there's always people that do things badly in whatever you do, and there are people that do things to the best abilities and whatever you can do. And I know that. From a welfare point of view with farmed fish, that is something that is taking strides.

It is improving over time, and I imagine in 5, 10 years' time it will be substantially better than it is, it is now, and I guess all we can hope is that it continues to move forwards. Cos providence is really important, isn't it? I'm, I'm very particular about, you know, the meat that I eat when I go to restaurants, etc.

If I buy meat in it tends to be, you know, organic or free range or whatever. And, hopefully again welfare is better, but of course you can be an organic farmer who doesn't do welfare very well, although I think it probably be a bit less likely. And, and I suppose we, we look at the sentient and we somehow place fish below mammals, don't we?

Do you think that's a bit unfair as well? I think that we don't understand enough about it, but I think that to say that fish don't feel some sort of pain or invertebrates don't feel some sort of pain, I think is inaccurate. I think that maybe their pain or their perception of pain is different to mammalian pain, but that doesn't mean that it's.

Not their version of of pain or their version to a noxious stimuli. So I think that, I think it is really, really important. And obviously, there are, if you're talking about fish farms, for example, there are some that do a lot, put a lot of effort into maintaining good welfare when, yeah, they're probably ones out there that don't do that brilliantly as well, and there's been plenty of documentaries and stuff, you the ones on like.

Netflix and stuff talking about salmon farming that show kind of both sides of, of things, but I think that there are a substantial proportion that are doing, trying to do things as, as well as possible out there. Do you know the world's longest running online veterinary conference is back? Join us from the 6th to the 10th of February 2023 for the webinar vet's 11th annual virtual congress.

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I know, You're not just a fish that you look after all exotic creatures. And I was fascinated to hear that you also are very interested in the olive Ridley turtles, and we did a a webinar a number of years ago as part of our virtual congress with the with Claire Petros, who, who looks after the old Ridley turtles. So I know it's not a fish.

I know a turtle is not a fish, so just in case. Don't think I don't realise that, but perhaps tell us a little bit about what's going on, and I believe we've we've got one of said Olive Ridley turtles in an aquarium not very far from you. Yeah, so, the Olive Ridley is an absolutely amazing charity and one that I have been.

Thrilled to to work with on a number of occasions now, and obviously the fantastic Claire Petross, and I kind of like her team of, of vets and nurses out there as well. They've got their own exotic ven out there too now, which is, is amazing. They do a substantial amount of work for understanding and and helping Olive Ridley turtles in the Maldives and unfortunately there's an awful lot of, of damage with fishing nets and stuff that these guys get caught up in, and they help rehabilitate wherever possible this species for, for eventual release, but there's one turtle called Heidi, who had such substantial damage that He'd actually permanently damaged both of his front flippers and wasn't able to be released, and Claire has worked fantastically hard along with obviously various different people, especially the guys at the National centre, the National Marine Aquarium in, in, in Plymouth as well, to, to actually get him over here.

So, he is, . Currently chilling in quarantine and everything at the moment at the Plymouth Aquarium, and the fantastic guys at IZVG have have been looking after him. But yeah, he, I went and visited him the other day, having met him in the Maldives, and then got to see him all the way over here as well, just down the road from me.

It was, it was fantastic actually to see. The enclosure that he's eventually going to be in and all the welfare things that that they're doing to try and look after him in the best possible way and give him some semblance of life after we as a human race, essentially we've permanently damaged him with the kind of discarded fishing nets and things that that he was caught up in. But the Oli Ridley are an amazing charity and and I'm proud to have worked with them and kind of follow and will continue to to support them and everything with everything that they.

They do as well, especially the, the vet schemes, so there's vets that can go out there and help them out. My, my lovely colleague Amy's heading out there in September as well to kind of impart some of her skills with them too. So, it's a really exciting project and definitely one that I would advise any vet that's interested in aquatics, but, reptiles in general to to get involved with this as well.

They're a really good team. And I think this is where it's interesting when we talk about welfare and then the environment and one health. Actually, the more that we look at this holistically, the better because the the new status in 2050 there'll be more plastic in the ocean than there are fish.

And unless we deal with that, then clearly. Fish welfare, just fish existence is really threatened, isn't it? And I know with the 30 by 30 sort of commitments that are coming out of COP, it's making those places that are free from fishing nets, free from even things like the, the connectors that connect your 4 cans of lager together that are obviously plastic and stick around for hundreds of years.

Those sort of things can be got rid of if we have safe havens, safe nursery areas, because those nurseries can help us keep a sustainable fish stock which we can enjoy, not only ourselves but you know, our children and our grandchildren as well. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that you, you're spot on that looking at it holistically from a a one health perspective, I think it is absolutely essential that one does not come without the other. To be perfectly honest, and that's certainly something that the Olive Ridley do a lot of like local teaching about and work with kind of like the the people in the Maldives and things as well, not just from a, finding alternative things that they can do rather than discarding their nets, but also even from like a poaching point of view as well and making sure that they're having discussions with them and explaining kind of like why ideally we'd want to do things in a in a different way.

So I think that although the Olive Ridley project from a veterinary point of view does a substantial amount to help nurse and care for sick and injured turtles, they also have a massive effect on like the welfare and the understanding of of how the social economical things kind of weigh in with the changes that they're seeing in the the species that they look at, but. It's not just the Olive Ridley turtles that they work with. There was a couple of hawk spills that had got injured when I was there as well.

So, it's it is, it is amazing, but it's also incredibly sad when, when you're out there too that the injuries that that happen and the subsequent changes that those reptiles go through, it is, it's heartbreaking in some instances. I think as you said, it's educational if people realise that if they poach all of these turtles and they don't exist anymore and that stops tourists coming, the tourists can have a higher economic value than a, you know, a a a plate full of turtle meat, can't it? So it's getting those that, that the local people that, you know, we've obviously places like the UK are so nature denuded because we've got rid of most of our nature.

Whereas these places often have more abundant nature, and it, it is the local people who have to be involved in protecting them and and looking after them as well, isn't it? Absolutely, and I think that's my understanding of, of one of the, the, the things that they often do, and I know that they do a lot, a lot of, I mean, Claire's always posting on social media, she's been to some school or another to try and get the information out there, makes me very, very jealous to see all the fun things that she gets to do in such glorious sunshine. But yeah, it's not just the veterinary side of things as well, which was, I mean, I, I didn't get involved with, with anything else there.

I was there to to help with the surgeries and. The, the diagnostics and stuff, but it's, it is fascinating to understand all the behind the scenes work that the charity do as well, not just from the the veterinary side of, of, of things too. And on a cold, dark December afternoon, wouldn't we all like to be in the Maldives at the moment?

Yes, with a rum, preferably. Sonia, thank you so much for, for chatting to me. It's such an important area.

That we obviously need more vets to get involved with and I'm, I'm so pleased that you're following on by educating interns. I know you're just finishing with 2 and you've got a new 2 starting, so you're starting the process yet again in January. Yes, we are, so my, my lovely Heather and Esme leave me soon, which is very sad, but that does mean that Holly and Jenny are starting shortly.

As well, we had a lot of applicants this year. It was very, very hard to, to choose. So, yeah, Holly, Holly starts in January, Jenny starts the end of February.

So, we start, start all over again, and yeah, they'll, they will get exposure to a lot of aquatic species, which is, is fantastic for them, and I hope that that means that they're moving forward, they're more comfortable when they, leave after the year's internship and and find jobs elsewhere. And of course you are not moving into new quarters but just having more space to grow as I croft as well, so you'll you'll have lots of space to see lots of fish if there are vets listening who want to refer cases. Yeah, absolutely.

Our our lovely referrals division have got their own fancy hospital in Avonmouth, so Bristol Vet specialists, will be a. In early next year, we're staying at our main hospital and working alongside our amazing first opinion team as well, which is really, really, it's sort of mixed feelings. It's sad that all of our colleagues from the referral side of things that are leaving and our friends and everything, but also it's exciting to see how the hospital will develop once we've got more space and certainly from an exotics department.

Point of view, we have absolutely outgrown the space that we have. So hopefully it gives us the opportunity to expand and, and yeah, go from, go from there, but definitely the aquatics work, will no doubt continue to explode, which it has done this year. I, I see a handful of aquatic cases every single week now.

So, it's definitely getting more and more. And it's so nice when I had my own first opinion practise and also my interest in dermatology to see dermatology referrals, but also first opinion. It's a lovely books as well, isn't it?

It is really, I, I would never want to give up first opinion, to be perfectly honest, I don't think the exotics department would work without the first opinion. And I think that one thing that I'm very proud that our exotic department as well as the client care side of things, which obviously is a big part of the referral, but I would say is an even bigger part of the first opinion, like the, the relationships that we have with our clients and there's, I mean, I've worked for Hyper for nearly a decade now, and I've seen patients coming in as babies that are getting older now as, as well. So that's, that's really, really important from, from my perspective, but the care that we give the clients, I think is, is really, really important and something that I'm very proud that that my team does really, really well.

But I think that from the first opinion side of things, we give our first opinion clients the same referral level of care that our referral cases get. So at least for them, they get a much advanced service, my myself and my team, I don't touch cats and dogs anymore. I haven't for nearly.

A decade, I think I would cry my my lovely dog asleep in the background if she needs anything more than Metaca, I'm out, so I can't, I can't do anything else. But I think that it's gonna be fantastic to work alongside our our first opinion team, as well, which is good. Fantastic.

Once again, Sonia, thank you so much and if you do get to speak to Claire, tell her that I and my, my best wishes and and thanks for the fabulous work that she's doing over there to save these beautiful majestic creatures. Yeah, she does a top notch job, really, really good. Thanks so much Sonia.

Thanks everyone for listening. This is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vets and this has been Ven Chat. Take care.