Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast channel. I'm really pleased today to introduce Julie Wood to you, who is a pet loss counsellor, pet grief cos of course we shouldn't use that word loss, should we really cos it can be. A difficult word, but perhaps, Julie, before we go into the topic at hand, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you found yourself in this area of, of grief counselling.

Hi. Oh, well, it's been quite a long old journey. So, my background is in retail management, so cosmetic companies like Clarins, Procter and Gamble, those sorts of things in London.

So I was there for years and years. I was in those department stores. And I knew I wanted to work for myself.

I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I went and got some hypnotherapy, for stress really. And I knew that was it.

That was absolutely it. So I did all my training while I was still doing my other job. And then, after all my training and my exams, I set up a practise in Covent Garden as a hypnotherapist.

And a few years later, I needed to come back to my native Northeast. My parents, were here and my mom wasn't very well, so I came back and I set up a practise in Saltburn by the sea. So, and it was mainly hypnotherapy.

And then since then I've gone on to do other skills, so psychotherapy and those kinds of things as well. I think you. You then sort of wanted to go more into the pet side as well, didn't you, because obviously the hypnotherapy was for all conditions, but you'd noticed that there was a real issue around people, you know, having to, well, their their pets had passed away or whatever and there's this grief that we know people go through, you know, at these difficult times.

Yeah, so as part of the consultation, I always ask what's the worst thing to have happened in your life? And more and more times I was noticing that people were putting it when their animal died. It might have been from when they were really young, or it might have been, you know, quite a recent thing, but they just couldn't get over the death of a pet.

And also because of a society. Although we're meant to be animal lovers, we're expected to just move on quite quickly. So they might have been pushed back to going into work, after a couple of days, they might not have got any leave for it or the people were saying things like, well, you can go and get another dog.

And that really wasn't helping. And although people were trying to help, that wasn't, what was happening. There were certain conditions as well.

So somebody came with a sleep problem and they were, We went back, we dealt with, we looked back to when it started, and when this lady was small, she was told her dog was being put to sleep. And she went off to school and she expected the dog to be there when she came back because she didn't know that being put to sleep meant euthanized. And since then she was never been able to get a proper night's sleep because she was always worried that she would not wake up herself.

So there was lots of things like that, little indicators that the grief hadn't been dealt with and so that's kind of why I focused on it. So I took a grief counselling course. To make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong, really, but I do tend to use hypnotherapy, because it allows the client to say their most loving goodbye.

And I suppose we have to be really careful as vets and nurses in the language that we use, you know, to lose a pets. Can be an inappropriate term or as you've just had to put to sleep. These are obviously trigger words that can lead to longer term problems as you've just explained.

Yeah, it sounds kinder to say to, to put an animal to sleep, and also to say I'm sorry for your loss. We say it all the time, but if you lose something like your tet, the chances are you're going to find it again, and it can just kind of prevent the person from moving forward if they're always thinking it's a loss rather than something that is unfortunately permanent. So yeah, language is important.

Sorry to hear that Freddie passed away is a more appropriate way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's that's really, that's really useful. Perhaps are there any other tips to sort of recommend to that practise some of the things that you've seen from the client side where the client said, you know, I went in and this happened and it really wasn't very helpful.

I think it's. It's such an important consultation, you know, as a vet, I, I often got pets, better from quite complex conditions, and people would be thankful, etc. But actually, the chocolate and the wine came through the door after you'd actually euthanized a pet often because of the way that you'd done that.

I think it's such an important time. To show compassion as vets and nurses, but perhaps, you know, what have you seen from the other side where clients have perhaps been upset by what's happened in a practise. So I'll give you an example.

Is during lockdown, and this was kind of nobody's fault because it was just lockdown came very quickly. There wasn't a space of social distance. I had a lady that had to her, her dog became very ill.

She had to take it to the vets and hand it over in the street. And then she got a phone call to say, you know, there's nothing we can do. What do you want to do?

Do you, do you want us to, to euthanize them, but you have to decide now. And her husband was at work, she didn't know what to do, she was all upset. She felt she hadn't had a chance to say goodbye.

Now I think that happens a lot less now because people are more set up, for that. But I think just A little bit of compassion and most people I'm sure most vets and veterinary professionals are really compassionate people, but it's It's sometimes it's how you put it across. So it might be very matter of fact to, to, to the person, you know, you've got to decide now, you know, that they're literally they're in surgery, what you want to do.

And it's just really, really traumatic sometimes for clients. Hm. We've actually done some webinars, you know, around all this topic, and I think one of the things is, is very much sometimes to have a pre-euthanasia consultation with or without the pets.

There are many times where the dog is in such a degree of discomfort or cat where, you know, you really have to push for that and obviously sometimes. I always, I always used to say, you know, there's 3 people in the room, there's you, there's me, and there's the cat or the dog and the pets, and the most important person in the room is, is the pet, so we've got to make the right decision and sometimes. You know, you were talking a little bit about guilt and regret before.

I would say to people, it's better to take the pets a week too early than a week too late, because if the last period of the pet's life is really uncomfortable, and particularly if they've had advice and they've not taken that advice, then, you know, that's not fair on on the animal either. So very rarely did I have that problem because I think vets are trusted, so people do listen to our advice on the whole, but I absolutely agree. You know, giving them a chance to take the pet home for 24 hours, and then I was a big fan of if people wanted it, I would be very happy to do it at home because actually having that happen at home is often a much nicer experience than having to, you know, get the animal to the the the practise.

Maybe you have to wait a bit before you could go in. And and then, you know, . To a degree there's a, there's a bit more rush involved than if you're at home where things can be taken, you know, at a slower pace.

I suppose the other thing is, you know, in human situations like this, we often have a funeral which marks the end of the process or the beginning of the process because, you know, we're rushing around. I know my mum's birthday is today, she passed away 8 years ago and For the 2 or 3 weeks longer now with COVID, but you know, the week or two before the funeral, you're so busy doing things, people are coming to the house, you're sharing good stories, that actually it's when the funerals happened and people go out, that's sometimes the time when you've got more time to reflect and and to mourn and go through that process of grief and grief is a many layered process isn't it, you know, you go through that blame, you go through that anger stage until you get to acceptance. Do, do you think, you know, we often have that ability to send people's, pets off to be cremated, have the ashes back.

There are some places where you can go to the actual, you know, crematorium and and see cremation happening. Is that something that Is necessary for everybody or can be cases. I think it's useful to have the choice.

So, for instance, I've had clients that never want the ashes back at all, and I've got some that have them sitting on the sideboard in a huge, so. Everyone is different, but I think to have the choice is good. Something that some vets have done that I've spoken to them they've got they've gone away and managed to fit it into their practise is that they've made a room for the clients to sit and maybe be with their pet for about 1015 minutes beforehand and save their.

Goodbyes without a nurse standing there with the needle and the razor to sit, you know, without, being sort of feeling that they it's now kind of thing. So they've been able to, to take them to a private room, say goodbye, perhaps they've had a cup of tea made before or afterwards. And that's good.

And if you have got somebody in your area that does jewellery or some way you can put the fur in or maybe take a paw print. Of the animal, before they, you know, before they euthanize or afterwards if that's more appropriate. But just so that they've got something to take home like, like a memorial for them, so that can be quite good if you've got any books.

Around pet on a grief that they they can have or advice that if they've got children that might be the sort of thing that they want, you know, how do I explain to my children? All those kinds of things, but a little room if if there's room in your practise for somewhere to go. And also I think it's important that after the vet and the nurse has had to do the euthanasia, if they have time to go and just take 5 or 10 minutes before moving on to the next patient.

And maybe they could use that room for that as well. I remember when I was about 5, I went off to Spain. It was the first time I went abroad, you know, obviously with my mom and dad and my.

And to my nan lived with us as well. My sister had come on the holiday and we had a lovely time and then when we came back, I was told that my little budgie guard escaped out of the cage and had flown free. And being a bit knowledgeable of birds even at that young age, I realised that the sparrows may have hounded the poor budgie to death, so it probably had a really horrible death.

When I got to 16, there was a chance conversation at the dinner table about, you know, how the budgie had actually been found dead on the bottom of the cage, but to not upset me, a white lie had been spoken, and, you know, I used to counsel people all the time, you know, oh, the kids will be home when we get back, we're just going to say that it's gone off to, you know, a farm or something, . And I used to say, please, you know, kids have to learn about this, and often we'll cope with it better than than adults will. Please just tell them the truth, because these are important areas that they need to see that their parents are, you know, truthful with them.

So I don't know if you, if you've seen some examples of that or how you, you know, advise or if people got guilty about that because they have perhaps misled. You know, younger children. It's more when people have got older and they've looked back and resented that their parents weren't truthful with them, for that.

So, and again, I think the parents think they're doing the right thing. But the other thing is, is if a child is allowed to deal with the death, well, if that's, if, if there is such a way of doing that, that means when it comes to humans passing away, that they're more likely to deal with that in a better way than if they've never had a child, you know, usually when a pet dies, that's the first experience of grief that children have. But the other thing is is that children are very curious and what sometimes happens is the adult is still all upset.

And the children are asking, yeah, but what happens when it dies? What happens? What do they do?

And if they've got an urn and they're trying to tip out the ashes because they don't understand how a dog this big can fit in an urn this big, and the parents are getting really, really angry and thinking they're doing some terrible thing, but it's only just childish curiosity. So what I would advise people, if you have a young one who is curious, don't leave the ashes somewhere where they might want to just have a look. And see and don't be upset, they're not trying to be morbid and they're not trying to be horrible, they're just curious, they just, they don't know what's going on and they're just curious.

And I think that's a, a way to look at it. Do you want to become a part of the largest online veterinary community in the world? The webinar vet's membership is the perfect tool to easily complete your veterinary CPD or CE.

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My mum and and in fact even neighbours and relatives who lived around where when I was growing up, they, they said, you know, you are the boy that is always asking the question why, why, why, why? And I think, you know. Maybe I did that a bit more than than other children, but I, I agree.

I think, you know, children are curious, aren't they? Yeah, they are. And the other thing, if somebody has a family, so this is a really good idea, and it works really well with lots of my clients, and it might be something that some of the vet practises want to put in place, to, to give us a gift.

I mean, I don't know, but they would make an album. So you've got young children can draw a picture of the dog. All the children might want to write a letter and same dog, but you know, any animal.

Put photographs in because quite often now everything is on our phone or our laptop. We don't have that many physical photos. And then if you lose all the photos off your phone, they're kind of all gone.

But it's good that if you have like a shared album and everyone contributes to it, it gives a kind of a reason to speak. It opens up the conversation. Do you remember when they did this or oh do you remember when When you knock that over or whatever, whatever happened, but it is quite a good thing.

So some of the pets, sorry, the vets that I've worked with, they give like an empty album, but with the animal's name on and they give it, and sometimes cards and I know somebody who makes this book cars from the vets as well, you know, with their own. And logos on and things like that. So there's all that kind of thing.

I know when my own cat passed away and I was on the moon when I was just an ordinary card, that I got, you know, like a bereavement card from the vet. I was amazed to get it and it was about a week later, it was a week after it euthanized and it meant that it meant a lot. You know, often people say, people don't care how much you know, but they want to know how much you care.

And this is, it's so important because You know, we, we have a responsibility, I think as professionals to also empathise to the client. We know that, you know, when you lose a pet, you said the worst thing to happen in your life is a question you often ask, but. You know, to lose a treasured pet that you've maybe had for 1520 years is like losing a member of the family, so it obviously is a very traumatic time for people.

Quite often clients will say one of the reasons they feel guilty is because they miss the animal more than they miss a parent or an aunt or a grandparent, and I said, but how often did you see that relative and they say, you know, maybe once a month or something. So how often did you see? Pet and it was every day and every night, you know, on the bed first thing in the morning, last thing at night, of course they're going to miss it more, but they feel as though they should, it's a horrible word should, but they feel like they should feel miss the human more, but actually they're missing the animal more.

Sometimes also, you know, particularly dogs, although this cat, that adopted me three years ago, you know, was a growler wouldn't let you touch it, not growling, but, you know, letting you know that you weren't to go near, and now he jumps on my lap when I sit down after dinner and, you know, demands 20 or 30 minutes of stroking, so, they, they can change around, can't they? But . You know, for some people that they've, they've been let down by humans, but they often say, but a dog never lets you down because he's a very faithful creature.

It's there for you each morning takes you, you know, so I, I. Exactly, yeah, explain to us how the hypnotherapy sessions, you know, happen and how often, so presumably it differs with every different client you see, but is there a sort of standard one that you can. Yeah, so what happens first is that the person would get in touch usually.

So this is if they come in and they know that they're coming in because they're grieving for their animal, not because it's something like sleep and that we just discover it later. So if they know they're coming in specifically for help. With grief for their animal.

They would get in touch and then we would arrange a chat on the phone and it takes about 20 to 30 minutes. And the things that I'm looking for is the circumstances surrounding the death. If there are any other animals in the house as well, who else has been impacted by it, and if they're religious because they, you know, what do they believe happens after death, because not everybody thinks it's a rainbow bridge and that they're going to go to heaven, you know, that all animals go to heaven, but some people do.

And so you can tailor it around what they believe and what they need. So that those are the kinds of things also I would check that there's no contraindications the therapy, like there are certain mental health conditions that you shouldn't use with it and I'd have to use something else. So we'd go through all that and then we would do the first session, and the first session is an hour and a half and it can either be online, sorry yeah, face to face or online, face to face or online.

And so there would be a more in-depth consultation and with that I might be looking at what other kinds of grief of experience so in case it's developing into. Grief. So you might get somebody whose dog has died now, but suddenly all the things that happened in the past that they thought that they'd moved on from come back.

So a good example of this actually is a lady I had that came to see me because the dog had died and she didn't know why she felt so guilty. She had other dogs that had died, but she couldn't get over this particular one. And what had happened, what, what it emerged was her mum had gone into a care home about 2 years before, she'd had Alzheimer's and the client had had to admit her in the end.

She tried to care for her at home. It wasn't working she had to. And about 2 weeks later, her mum passed away.

And she thought that she'd moved on from that, you know, she knew consciously that she'd done the best she could. When her dog died two years later, wham, it all came back. Everything, she's completely swamped with grief from her mom.

So we'd be looking at things like that as well in the session. So sometimes it's not just about the animal, it's everything else that comes with it. So I've had people, Bringing up things, information and things like terminations or children leaving home or losing a job or a divorce, anything that's got lost where you suddenly feel this big emptiness that can all come back come flooding back when the animal dies.

So sometimes the sessions are longer, so most people have two sessions. So the first one's an hour and a half and the second one's an hour. And some people have them just a week apart, but some people say the second session because they're worried about the 1st birthday or the first Christmas and how they're going to cope.

But sometimes by the time they get to that stage that they don't even need the second session, but yeah, it's . That that's kind of the way the sessions go. So I would.

Say to people that to get comfortable and so that I can see their face, OK, so they're not holding their phone like that, so it's propped up. Most people close their eyes because it's more comfortable, but if they want to leave them open and find a spot on the ceiling to stare at instead, they can do. And then I explained that they're in complete control, so I can't make them run like run around like a chicken or get their PIN number out of them or make them do anything they don't want to do.

And I tell them what the experience will be like. And that they can go about their business afterwards. And what we do is during the hypnosis session, I usually get them to say their most loving goodbye.

So under the power of hypnosis, they can then say all the things that they wished that they'd have said to that animal, wish that they could explain, because people do feel guilty, they feel guilty that they didn't choose euthanasia, euthanasia sooner because they do test after test after test after test even though. Deep down they knew it wasn't going to do any good, and they put their animals through that or they wish that they'd done more testing because what if they suddenly found this miracle thing that could have worked. So whatever it is, they blame themselves and have all this regret.

So by doing it on hypnosis, letting them explain how they came to their decision to their animal. It's a, it's a really powerful thing and that's kind of the way that we do it. And then they're trying to go about the business afterwards, you know, they don't get stuck in any trance.

I'd always say, well, that if we lose the connection, if they don't hear my voice and there's a bit of music going on, for 5 minutes, they'll bring themselves out of the trance so that there's no worry about them just getting stuck there. And you can't anywhere with hypnosis, but it is something people worry about. I, I think maybe to finish as well.

I, I remember working with a vet who just could not put a dog to sleep. I mean, it was really, really difficult for them and quite often. You know, people would come back to see me because it was quite clear what had to happen, but, you know, that that was not able to do that themselves.

Do you see sort of examples of where vets just really struggle with this, maybe because of the amount that they're doing, or just that it's a concept that they can't quite get their head around that they have that. You know, power to be able to to be able to take that pet's life because it's the appropriate thing I've had I have a religious client that was a vet but didn't believe that they should have the authority to do that. But then the way that I spoke about it was, well, You know, so they had a very powerful belief in God.

So I said, but your, your God made you a vet to do the best to buy these animals, and would that God want this animal to suffer? And kind of we, we approached it that way and that they were doing the kindest thing. They, they weren't doing anything.

They weren't being all powerful and deliberately taking their life. What they were doing is putting an animal out of its suffering and out of its pain. And a compassionate God would surely want that, and they agreed with that.

And that's kind of how we, we got through that bit. So there are different reasons. Sometimes it might be that that that is Not dealt with a bereavement themselves particularly well in the past or they've had to suppress it to to carry the rest of the family with them, and just pretend and just got on with it and just pretended.

And so that's why they can't bring themselves to do it. So there's all sorts of different reasons why people struggle with it. So yeah, it's .

It's a challenge. It's a, it's a really, you know, important topic. I think it's great that we, we talk about it, you know, words can make a big difference the way we say them.

Also, you know, as vets, the way that we approach those, . I would say challenging, but they're also, you know, I often felt very privileged to be in that position of being able to help, you know, a pet move over to the other side and to, to be able to comfort the the client, so. The more that we can sort of think about this and make sure that we get it right, I think it's, it's just so important.

It's why many of us become vets because we care about animals and we want, as you said, to do our best for them. So, thank you, Julie, for everything that you do in this area, you know, supporting clients because often, You know, clients have moved on. We've put the dog or the cat, down, you know, we've euthanized it and then of course we may send a card, but it's very hard for practises which are now very, very busy with, you know, post pandemic puppies and kittens to actually still be able to check in on that client.

I suppose a a final question is, You know, every client is different, but it's making sure that clients don't feel guilty to get another pet after that pet, because sometimes you feel, well, this, this pet can never be replaced because he was so, he or she was so special. Any last thoughts on that before we finished. Again, that's something that clients feel guilty about.

There's all this guilt, I think, because they have to make the decision. But the way that I look at it and the way I explained to him it's not taking the place of the dog or the animal that passed away. It's filling the space.

So you might get somebody who lives on their own or they need an emotional support dog or they just miss having an animal around. And it's not taking the place of the one who died. It's, it's absolutely not.

And they, the one who died, you know, the animal that died probably loved their owner to death, and they would want their owner to be happy. They would want their owner to lavish all that love that they used to give the other dog onto another dog who maybe needs it. And I do get clients who say to me, I'm never going to get another animal.

I can't do this again. I'm never gonna do it. And then it was like you were saying before, and then, you know, a couple of weeks later they'll ring me and they say, oh, I don't know how to tell you this, but somebody, you know, it's like it was meant, somebody was having to get rid of their animal or it was in a rescue and nobody wanted it and I just, you know, I couldn't see it there.

I had to, to do something. So it's about filling the space but not taking the place and that I think that can be quite comforting. That's something you can say to your clients if they ask you when's the right time to get another dog or cat, but I wouldn't suggest it yourself to them.

I think people do get a bit tired of people well-meaning friends say, oh, well, you can get another cat or dog, but it's when they're time when it's right for them. It's, it has to be the client it's right for them. Julie, thanks so much.

Really appreciate your time for everything that you do for for clients who are struggling, so please do carry on the good work. Thanks very much.