Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in to this more kind of podcast style approach to. A particular topic that we, that has been a very huge topic in the community for a few years now. But we are now seeing the tail end, no pun intended, of a variety of issues that, the community has brought up for a while.

And this is about the sudden upsurge of interest and and outroar from a variety of different er er groups on both sides of the debate about Excel bullies. Now for context, my name is Fabian Rivers. I am a small animal and exotics vet and have been working with this particular, with people, on this particular topic for a few years now.

I actually was on a document called, a document, a documentary called Britain's Poppy Boom Counting the costs, and. That's on iPlayer, it's on BBC 3, it's on BBC 1. And the centre of that particular documentary was to focus the attentions of not just the ethnic community but, you know, society as a whole.

To look into the increased interest in certain breeds. And also the increased fashion of buying puppies. And also to look at some of the.

Side effects of that increased, interest and fashion of buying puppies, that we saw, across the board during lockdown, and during the pandemic, effectively. And what we saw was a lot worse than we originally planned, and there was some illicit work going on, and fertility clinics, you know, one particular fertility fertility clinic was shown to be showing some pretty abhorrent standards, and some laws seemed to have been broken during that documentary as well. And as a result, there was, there was quite a, a upsurge in, in, in interest with regards to.

That particular topic. And amongst the many during lockdown. And as a result of that, there were a huge amount of warnings that went to the government, from ourselves and a variety of different, you know, eminent bodies, BVA Dogs Trust, so on and so forth.

And there was some loose commitment of, of some of the changes that, we hope to see in the near future. But it's something that we've seen in the vetin community, especially if you're a companion animal vet, but it's something that's also been in the media a lot of. As a result of, of, of this, as we probably had anticipated collectively, is that.

If you get puppies and you don't do the due diligence and you know, there are certain things attached to XL bullies in particular, crop tiers, no real commitment to understanding where these puppies will go past the point of being bred, like machines effectively, that we anticipated that there would be some behavioural issues, that would manifest. And despite XL bullies being you know, a variety of different quote unquote breeds, the micro bully, the pocket bully and so on and so forth, the Excel bully, and all its derivatives. There has been an increase in, in, in, in notable, and media covered attacks by, XL bullies in the recent, in the, in the last year or so.

And so what's prompted is that we had Rishi Sonak just up just under a week ago now, I believe er effectively came on on TV and said that he vowed by the end of next year to ban the XL bully and that quote unquote, they were they were a danger to communities. Just for context and some factual context, in last year, or last year, 2022, there were 10 deaths as a result of dog bites. And since 200, sorry, 22,000 out of control dogs causing injury, in last year, and that's up from 16,000 in 2018.

So a 6000 increase in dog bites causing. Injury, I also control dogs causing injury. Sow a brave woman, homesick, previously, previously said that exile bodies were a quote unquote lethal, danger, and that she was seeking guidance from the relevant bodies that be about having them banned or something or or something to that effect.

And so we, we in the retney community who have seen and have called out for a variety of different, you know, changes, you know, one of the things in the documentary was to put pressure on, you know, DR and so on and so forth, to discuss how we approach some of the concerns going forward with not just excel bullies but fertility clinics, illicit breeding, and some of the, the, the kind of nastier sides of, of, of that world. And effectively what we're seeing is is is a is is a manifestation of some of those, those concerns from a few years ago, . And it's been very difficult, basically, and I'm sure many of you who are tuning in are interested, have probably seen firsthand or heard of secondhand and thirdhand of, you know, an increase in quote unquote behaviorally challenging dogs in practise, and, you know, by all means it takes a cursory look online to see that actually.

We are seeing some pretty high profile, pretty nasty cases of attacks by dogs and you know, it's not, it's not a, not a pretty pretty at the moment. There has been, just to continue on with a little bit with a bit of an intro, there has been some pushback, as you can imagine, given their recent popularity, from bully carers or caregivers as I like to call them. And this has also been mirrored by a quote unquote coalition of veterinary and animal related bodies, you know, the RSPCA, the BVA Dogs Trust, and so on and so forth.

I made it very clear that it's very difficult. We have a long history of supporting this, it's very difficult to say that a breed. As a rule of thumb.

Is actually at play as being an issue. And that there are some pretty major questions about how we say what is qualifies as this breed. What doesn't qualify as this breed and what is the the the line because we don't have a breed standard currently for a bully breed.

And that actually that lots and lots of dogs which are not looked after in a suitable fashion, given the right support could be quote unquote dangerous and that actually we need to look at that culture a little bit more. And so we've got these kind of bit of a partisan. Or bipartisan approach to this particular issue, and that's why it's kind of got a lot of traction in the about the community at the moment.

And very recently, 4 days ago actually, there was a, a, a, a bit of a protest, hundreds of protesters, quote unquote marched in. London very recently to share their general rejection of this er er er you know, this new statement that's brought out by Richy Soak. And Yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting week for this particular topic.

So we're gonna try and get into it a little bit over the next 45 minutes, hour or so. Just so we can get to the depths of it. So One thing that's very difficult, and I've mentioned it already, is that when you have a breed that is on the tail end of of quite widespread mixed reviews, vitriol by some.

And, and, and, you know, the, the, the love and care of so many carers or owners out there who swear blind that this particular breed is big and cuddly and they have, you know, thousands of people supporting them. Is that how do you define? What is a breed?

Now if we don't have a breed standard, we have to create one, we have to define one. And one thing that makes it. Very difficult is that as mentioned before, that the XL bullying and all its derivatives are often a variety of different breeds mishmashed together to try and elicit a certain variety that is suitable or more aesthetically pleasing.

And so there are other breeds that have been mishmashed into this big mishmash, and, you know, things like staffy, staff bull terriers, Bulldogs, and a variety of other breeds have been pulled into this maelstrom of, of, of, of what is the Excel bully, what is the American Excel bully. And, you know, including mastiffs as well, because again, once you have a culture around a certain breed, it's really easy to start creating your own niche within that. And that's what's happened.

And there's a huge amount of divergence there with other breeds which currently don't come under any breed specific legislation. And so one thing that's been, that's come up already very early on is, well, my dog isn't an exile bully, my dog is a this. He just looks like an XL bully, or she looks like an Excel bully.

And that presents genuinely a very large concern for the government to be able to to to to to implement some type of breedspecific approach. And It's not only really difficult to create something. Which is specific to that, but then enforcing it.

Now XL bullies are probably, as far as I'm concerned, this is anecdotal, one of, if not the fastest growing er er breeds inverted commas that I have seen in practise at least. And obviously this would be regional, and cultural, but I would say that there was a point that I, I probably rarely saw anything that looked like this breed, you know, prior to, you know, when I started working, which is what, 2018 now. And I, out of nowhere around 2020, started to see them all the time and like I, they are a pretty big contingent, of the types of dogs that I have seen in practise.

And What is an effectively. Complicates this particular process with any type of legislation. Is how you enforce it, and how the police, and then we'll talk about this later a little bit more, are supposed to become the arbitrary executors of this particular process or the the local council dog warden, for example.

And er it is to my understanding at least that depending on which council you're at. Dog wardens are already very. They are very, very burdened already with the types of things they have to do.

And this also goes for the police thanks to cuts. And it just, it really makes it difficult to, to work out how we try to enforce this, and how much this enforcement will come in and what it will look like, . And this is ultimately something that we need to to to look into a little bit more.

But what's also interesting is that. Technically speaking, and this is what's actually written by the government, that currently if they are a ban breed, they can be taken by the police or a dog warden if not acting dangerously. And this may or may not require a warrant.

Depending on a certain variety of different pieces of information. So this is directly from the government. So a warrant is needed specifically if in a private place, but not a, not in public.

So if, if a warden or the police sees someone with a a dog that they believe to be an exL bully, they can without a warrant take said dog and seize that dog. And at that particular point. That's completely legal.

Upon seizure, an expert, and, you know, we have a variety of people out there who are experts and they will judge what type of either they can quote unquote, release the dog back to the original carer or will be kept in kennels until said action happens. And during this time, you can't visit. Now, I've spoken to a variety of people, I won't name names, who have, who are quote unquote these experts.

And they er have said to me that this process often er extends past a year. And I believe there's one particular case, and I can't remember off the top of my head, that went on for 3 years. It's a very famous high profile case.

So we're, we're contextualising that we have a huge amount of Excel bullies on our streets now. Or let's say, Excel bully type breeds out there which could or could not pass by whatever arbitrary breeding standard they decide to make, they being the government. And then we also have a heavily burdened police force, a heavily burdened er er er dog warden, depending on the council that you're in.

So we also have experts. Who will then, upon starting of this seizure and this this legal process, will then have to judge. And this process can take years because of a backlog and a variety of different administration things that will have to be done and.

They can't visit. So let's just think about this as vets and and in the vetted community. You have a dog.

That potentially has a behaviour issue or just qualifies as potentially as an exile bully. And at any point in public, this dog can be seized. And then They could be potentially kept in a kennels without being able to be visited for quite often years.

Now for me that that presents a strong potential for a behavioural problem. If there wasn't already one there, an exacerbation of a behavioural problem. And this is something that I've heard has happened to with other pit bull type breeds that have been seized in the past.

The onus It's a quote, is on the owner to prove it is not. This particular breed, but if they, if they deem that it is, there is an unlimited fine or prison for up to 6 months, the dog will be euthanized as well. And so we were presented with this.

Very difficult situation depending on how they choose to approach the situation when they do, if they do. And this is the current procedure in place. Now there's something I have to mention.

There is an exemption list. And this exemption list effectively states. This particular breed is banned but not deemed dangerous, and there will be a certificate of exemption, which means they must be neutered, they must be microchipped, they must be kept on a lead and muzzled and kept in a secure place they cannot escape.

And they also must take out insurance against injuring people. To do this, they must be able to define what it is and it's very hard and very arbitrary. This last bit is what I've added.

And so, effectively what you have is a situation where, and this is something that has been er er supported by Christine Middlemis, who is the UK chief vet. And the idea is that what we're expecting at least this type of a an amnesty. An amnesty on all Excel bullies to to avoid this potential situation of a huge backlog of hundreds and thousands of of of of Excel bullies across the country having to be put into kennels which they don't have space for and creating a backlog, as long as they are submitted to be on this exemption list.

So an Excel bully amnesty is something that has been, suggested and, and somewhat promised by Christine Middlemis as of yet. But as you can see, there are already some very interesting . Thoughts and plans with regards to this, but I'm just trying to give you the, the wider context of what I've read and what I'm trying to, to collate for you today.

So there's the kind of legal side that we might be able to anticipate. So let's talk about brief specific legislation. So it's been around since 1991, and.

There are several breeds that have been added to this er er list. So the pit bull terrier, very famously known, the Japanese Tozer, the Dogo Argentino, and Phila Basileo. And like I said earlier, dog related attacks have risen from 18,000 to 22,000 in the last four years.

And fatalities have also risen. And if you look back at the, you know, general rule of thumb since this brief with the legislation has come in back in 1991, generally speaking. Most years, it's somewhere between 0 deaths for fatalities to about 5.

Last year it was 7. And, no, sorry, last year it was 10, and this year so far, and we're now in September, there has been 7. And It's important at least that we appreciate the context of, of, of pre-specific legislation and how it has moulded our approach to.

The types of breeds that have been, you know, . The Aggressors, for lack of better words, according to the government, for these particular attacks. But also what's interesting to to to to to put into context is that there are certain periods that since we've had this breed specific legislation.

Certain other breeds have become more popular. So I remember particularly in my era of, of being aware of dogs that were being brought to look a certain way and have this kind of aesthetic outcome, which is a staffy. Now if you've worked in any practise, half the staffy, if not more, are some of the most energetic, lovely dogs.

Not all of them are built the same, but, I would say the majority from my. Time working is that staffys are, are some of the most lovable dogs on the planet, a little bit too lovable. But as we know, they're very popular in the kind of mid 2000s for this kind of aesthetic of being, aggressive looking, and we have metal chains and so on and so forth.

And, but again, as based on the research that I have done, this is not, this is just a, a cultural thing. At some point they were Dobermans, and then it was German shepherds, Rottweilers had their thing and they're coming back now, same with German shepherds, and I've seen recently, the Malinois as being something. And it, it mirrors a big, it puts a big mirror on the type of cultural world that we're in right now.

Which is This increased obsession. Maybe commitment to a certain type of dog, guard dog, you know, a, a type of er er for a certain, Part of our community where certain breeds have a certain allure, Cane Corsos, the idea of being muscular and and aggressive has really come back to. Mainstream interests and it's become very popular.

I mean you you see a lot of celebrities who are doing the same and buying these breeds for tens of thousands of pounds, from very high profile and, and, and very well media trained, fertility clinics across the country. But the idea here is that certain breeds have a fashionable period and that despite the fact we've had breed specific legislation for best part of what, 25 years, no 30 years, even 35 years crumbs, that really we haven't seen much of a change, with regards to the types of behaviours people will do and. The shifting of the goalposts for certain breeds to have a certain look.

And what's interesting if you look at breed specific legislation around the world, other breeds that I've just mentioned, the Malinois and German Shepherd. The staffy, outside of the pit bull, etc. Are also on breed specific legislation in those countries, whether or not they are restricted, whether they can't be imported, whether they can't be bred, .

Is this, this kind of chasing shadows a little bit with regards to let's ban the breed and that will fix the problem. And what we found at least, is that all that does is allow people to find other ways to find other breeds that they think fulfils that aesthetic outcome. Of looking aggressive or strong.

And that's something that we've seen across the world. And there is, and that is why there's no real support from any retni group that I've looked into at least. And this isn't just a UK based against this type of idea of banning a breed.

But what are, what, what are people saying as a rule of thumb? And we spoke about this earlier, but the idea that it's the carers to blame and not the dogs themselves, and that there is no compelling research or no compelling. Thought process currently with any vet the community that I've looked into that genetics is a profound marker of aggressiveness.

What we have found and what we can say is that certain breeds have been chosen for certain characteristics and inherently, There is a predilection for certain breeds to have certain particular needs. And This is something that we need to take a, a big look at and help people understand really. And I, I guess in a sense I am preaching to the choir about this particular thought process.

But it is, it is very worthwhile to appreciate that there are many big big dogs that are not with within the legislation currently. And if they are poorly managed, as many of us will have seen, they have a similar risk of being aggressive, or let's say, poorly managed or having challenging behaviour and a powerful dog, XL bully or not, . Which is poorly cared for and poorly appreciated and does not has needs met, is at a greater risk of showing certain signs.

Now we know this as a rule of thumb because we've seen many Frenchies, we've seen many chihuahuas, we've seen many taxis, all with similar signs of certain behaviour issues because of a variety of behavioural problems that haven't been addressed. And I think a lot of people acknowledge that process. But also, where do you draw the line?

Well, Excel bullies are overer represented currently in these types of er er er er dangerous attacks. But ultimately, when the, the, the post shifts. And we choose something else, we go back to the staffy or whatever, and we have the exact same approach to these particular breeds.

Actually, is it the Staffy's fault? And then is it the Rottweiler's fault, and is it the German Shepherd's fault? Is it the Mallinmoise's fault?

Well, no. Probably not. And that's, that's the type of discussion that we're having a lot of now.

And this is not just in the banking community, this is actually by, and you wouldn't be surprised, Excel bully er er er carers across the country. And but there also, here's another side to this, there needs to be a real acknowledgement of the fact that people are buying for a certain aesthetic. And so.

By being driven by this human desire to have an animal that looks aggressive, looks hard or looks er er muscly, what, and also ultimately to to carry the status of that particular breed. A lot of our behaviours are of expectation, are being funneleder into these particular breeds. And so.

There is a desire to elicit a certain look and this is becoming the breed specific issue that we have seen. And how do we, as not just vets, or not just vet nurses or people in the vet community, how do we get people to appreciate the. Cultural.

Change that's required for us to meet the standards, and there is a wider question about, I'll say ownership in this particular context, about ownership and about the money that's involved in dogs. And actually that cultural education change, as we've seen with regards to brachycephalic breeds, whether they be in adverts, and, and, you know, trying not to put, you know, boxes on the front of, of, of Christmas tops and Frenchies on the front of cards, and, and that type of effort that we've tried to change on a corporate level, that how do we employ that understanding to the, to, to the wider society. And it's becoming very, very difficult to avoid that kind of disconnect that we, we as vets know best and that we are.

You know, wagging the proverbial finger at them and saying look. We're right, you should follow us, as opposed to we're doing this and sharing this information because we're generally concerned and we want you guys to, to not feel pressured, but actually feel that you're part of a process and that we have an understanding about the type of education that we feel would increase and improve the welfare of, of, of these animals. And this is how, this is one of the ways how we can do that collectively.

And it, it takes a lot of, of, of cultural work, but also there's a little bit of the soul searching as well. And what I mean by soul searching is that. When we talk about welfare, and when we talk about changing the culture of how we as British people, you know, dog lovers see, Dogs with all their relation to society.

Is that We do set a kind of mild standard about what they should do for us. And when does it that line get crossed? With regards to Welfare, but also with regards to the welfare of of humans, with regards to actually, Is this an issue in a wider spread sense?

Is the principle that we're asking people to approach and change. Actually can be extended beyond just the XL bully and just the Rottweiler. Well, let's talk about other breeds and that kind of expectation to fulfil that, that, that singular need or that expectation that we place on them to be cute or to be X and to EY.

And so there was a question there that has come up and and could present a a bit of a soul searching for us in the vetting community as well. Something that has come up as well, and I've, I've heard a lot of and seems to be the modus operandi of, of a lot of people in the retie community is to talk about licencing. And From what I've gleaned from a variety of, of people who have spoken about it, Jordan Shelley, for example, is, is, is someone who's probably been at the forefront of, of this particular topic, breeding, importing, and, and so on and so forth.

And he has done so much work in this field and is directly involved with dangerous dogs, inverted commas. On a regular and daily basis, and this is something that he feels very passionate about having some type of means tested or competency, competency tested way of having licence licencing and having that that that discussion on the table. And something that I, I, I understand at least is that.

By having people meet a standard. At a licence level, it helps us regulate who can or who cannot look after a dog. That's principally what it's designed to do.

In the same way a licence for a car is who can drive and who cannot, because they've gone through certain testing to, to at least show us some commitment to the rules that we've put in place. But also as part of that, that approach is to help centralise and er centralise the licencing process so we can continue to have, instead of it being all on one local council and what they prioritise, that actually it's more of a unified, a nationwide effort to be able to approach the issues around dangerous dogs. And, and but also approach the issue around how we.

Give people space to care or own dogs across the country. And unifying that helps us at least, at least means test that pretty uniformly across the country. But there are some caveats.

Well, it's first and foremost, it is extremely. . Labour intensive.

It is extremely labour intensive to unify not only things that have been historically council-based level of of involvement. But also that unifying a country to then have to, which, you know, I, I, I believe, you know, there's, there's, there's quite a, a large percentage of people in this country who do have dogs, to then retroactively ask them to justify and competent competency test, something that they've taken, not for granted, but taken as a, as, as their right to have. And How would we put that into place and the thing is that always.

Is very much at the forefront of such quite. Large scale changes to the way that we own or caregive to to dogs in particular is, is, is there the appetite in society to do that? Because ultimately we are at the will of the government's involvement or desire to help enforce, or not enforce or follow up or not follow up certain things.

And something that has seems to be the case is that, Do we feel that the British public would sign up and subscribe to that thought process? And personally, I'm a little bit sceptical. And I'm a little bit sceptical by virtue of the fact that.

People like to have changes that doesn't help, that doesn't make them reflect on the things that they've, I would say in this particular case, taken for granted. But also, it's, it's, it takes time. It takes time and it presents a huge task for any type of government or any type of administrative body to be able to put into place, and there was gonna be a huge effort to be able to work out how we do that.

If the technology needs to be created to to do that, the money that's involved in that. And the type of discussions with the variety of stakeholders who do or don't agree with that basic principle. And it is something that I feel needs to be personally needs to be on the table.

And also on on another level, I personally do have some concerns about the possibility. That that particular process could be used to malign certain groups. And I think something that is relatively common in the community is talking about if you don't have the money.

Then You know, you shouldn't have said animal. And I don't entirely agree with that and that and that's a whole another er er er er discussion. But I think we need to be very careful.

And I believe it's just still should be on the table, if we can do it right then fantastic. But I would say unless we can make sure we do it right, it needs to be something that's done with, with, you know, with diligence. Because the last thing we want to do is create an environment where we say, well, if you only have X amount of money in the bank, or maybe not something as as as as ham-fisted as that, but the idea is that we basically disillusion people from the possibility of having companionship, and I've seen personally people who, Who in in some criteria wouldn't be the most financially, let's say, ideal, you know, carers of animals, but have managed to provide wonderful homes for a variety of animals who would not have had access to any form of companionship.

And so that is something that we need to be really honest about as well. But I think that every discussion requires some open forum to, to, to raise their concerns and . But again, whether or not the political appetite is out there for it, whether the money, which obviously is something that we're struggling with right now in, in, in the world, but also particularly in the UK, you know, all these different factors have to come together for something so er er er large scale, and I'm not entirely convinced personally that that we're on that particular train.

I think also we have to look at the political spectrum that we're in. Now obviously for those who do or don't know, most of you should know, we have a Conservative government and something which is a kind of key tenet of, of, of being conservative is allowing. A decent amount of of of er self control or or allowing.

A devolution, basically, of, of. Some of the powers that be to allow people to basically have some jurisdiction of how they manage themselves and very centralised Government projects tend to be frowned upon within the political air that is the Conservative er er er er the Conservative Party. And so we add another level, another hurdle, to that particular thought process.

But I think the vet community feel that if there is a a a political appetite for it and that actually a lot of people in the vet community feel like this is the only real way we can get out of this, and we need to have that discussion. And I think one thing I do appreciate is that it is, it is a wild west situation with with getting a, a new puppy these days, especially when breeding new puppies is, is so popular and it's particularly with XL bullies, you know, I, I, it would be remiss of me to, to suggest that a lot of people who are buying XL bullies, are, are. Buying them because they want to just, and I mean it's very diligently.

Just provide just a good home for a dog. There is definitely an aesthetic outlook that people are, are, are kind of pining for, and that has made it very difficult for some type of breeding control, at least with regards to who can or who cannot breed. And the licencing approach to that, you know, have some, some real positives attached to it as well, and I think, I think that's something that we need to discuss.

But yeah, it, it's, I, I also feel that. People should be allowed companionship, and if we can wrangle those two very difficult points together, then potentially we might be on to a bit of a winner and need to open the discussion more. I think another point we have to mention.

Is that This approach is, is could be a bit of a a a populist tactic. Now we know Rishi Soak and the Tory parties er er and well hopefully, well you do know now that the er Tory party in favorability in Rishi Sunak as a, as a, as a prime minister has waned quite a bit based on latest YouGov statistics and. It is seen, to be included, as a bit of an attempt to try and er er drum up support for something which seems to be, for the most part, relatively popular.

So, there seems to be quite a. Widespread agreement that banning the XL bully is a good thing. Back in August, the YouGov, er, polled, .

And and Back in August, the YouGov polled that. There was an overwhelmingly supportive ban on XL bullies. That is seen by YouGov, but again with 57% in favour and only 70% against.

And this type of disparity, that best part of 60% of people, and this could be very loosely extrapolated to wider society, but let's say it is, it is relatively accurate, that there is a, there is definitely an appetite for a ban. And. This is a, is a very easy way potentially to gain as many points as possible, which is definitely needed on the political spectrum for Richi Soak as an individual, as, as an opportunity to basically to, to grab a few votes.

And as we've seen when the general election does come round in the next couple of years, I think it's 2025, I think that's what it's scheduled for, unless they call shock one before then and I don't think, given their recent poll status, it's very likely. That, that, that we're this type of long haul approach to at least making sure that there isn't a profound, huge defeat from the Conservative Party at the next general election is something that is shared, both by, by any political analyst at the moment. So, choosing something as divisive as this, is, is, is, is a pretty potentially easy way to gain a few votes.

However. What that means is, is that there's discussions going on and there is a hope and that there is potentially a little wriggle room and change, as we all know, politics is a very fickle sport. And so I think it's important that we, we continue to keep our BD eye on what may potentially be a bit of a sensationist approach, and that by the end of next year, we may see something completely different.

And that's something I feel we should. Keep on the back burner and not completely cast out of our minds, depending on how the media er continues to er pump out, you know, it's, it's own dialogue about this particular issue. I also think it's really important to mention that when we're talking about Excel bullies, and this is something that I feel the threatening community has failed to address, is that there seems to be, and this is no pun intended as well, a little bit of a dog whistling undertone to it.

And I've seen myself firsthand and heard some certain er er murmurings about the type of person who does get an Excel bully, and certain demographics in particular. And certain references to certain things, which I would say cross the line of a building prejudice, and it is very important whether we as, you know, people in the community, do our absolute best to wrangle with the idea that. Any type of assertion about the type of people that do or don't get Excel bullies may be seen poorly within our ability to separate what people like and how we villainize certain groups of people for prejudices and stereotypes which may or may not be grounded in a sense of reality.

And I think it could very much descend into a a a reflection. Of, of certain demographics and I think we need to, given our history, at least with regards to how we integrate people from all types of groups and backgrounds and demographics, need to be very careful that we make sure we don't descend into some kind of mudslinging, and, and, and that is, is something we need to be very aware of. So what's next?

All of information covered today. The idea at least is that obviously we have Christine Middlemis, the UK's chief revenue officer, as I said earlier, suggested an amnesty, and so potentially that could be a, if it does go through and how it would look like, may give some relief to bully owners, but it does still bring to, to, to that, that idea about, bring us back to the idea that. How do we work out if a bully is a bully and that the police and slash all the dog wardens have complete right in a public space to make a decision.

About. A bully breed. And, you know, if there was something that the dog was seized for whatever reason.

That we'd have some type of certificate, we'd show they'd be on the exempt list, and then there there there's still a a a particular legal process that we'd have to, to fulfil. But again, we just don't know, we just don't know how it's gonna manifest. And actually it could be that all people have to .

With XL bullies or suspected XL bullies to be on the exempt list, but actually enforcing that, Or what that looks like as long as you have a picture of it all on your phone, or do you need the original copy, like it's, it's very loose, and so we may find out that this is something that comes into place, but when it comes to reality, that this is all a bit of a hoo-ha, above and beyond actually that really changes much. And again, I, I think we need to anticipate that potentially may be the case. Just by, just based on the, the gravity and the amount of, of, of people around the country that could affect.

I think it's also important to add to the context of this particular conversation is that. In the last 4 years, there have a lot of animals that have killed more humans and dogs. Now this should not be, kind of the Olympic Games of which animals cause more problems, but I think, I think it helps to contextualise that.

We also need to be aware of how things are seen and that the outrage, quite rightly for how some of these, People have been affected by. Certain dogs. And kind of how they've been treated, but also what's happened as a result, you know, people dying is a real, real issue and that needs to be addressed.

And the people who have been in charge of the dogs that have caused, you know, grievous bodily harm or, or deaths need to be, need to be addressed, quite rightly, and that's something that, quite, . With a, with a, with a real understanding, to be honest with you, of the, of the level of danger they have brought on to effectively the society via their dog. And that in itself is something that we need to er er address and be aware of, but also.

We also need to understand that. Is this issue. As big as it appears to be based on the fact that there are other examples of other issues which we haven't taken as seriously.

Which potentially could be a a a graver issue. And I'm not trying to take away the the level of, of, of, of, of sorrow and frustration and anger about deaths as at the hands of dogs. But also just bringing to the fact that there have been.

More deaths from cows, basically in the last 4 years. And it does it does bring into question the optics about popularity of the story over some kind of contextual understanding of a wider issue about our relationship with animals. .

So yeah. So, what can we do in the re community? I think be vocal.

social media and news papers do carry a, a huge, a huge weight in the way that we sculpt the world around us and, you know, dissemination of, Our views, our education. And our thoughts is very important and it's very hard, as we know, to, to kind of come together with a sense of, of a clear idea of what we're trying to to to discuss because again, until we know what the parameters and what actually we're dealing with, it's very hard for us to come to a general accord. But I think And I'd like to think that a lot of us here speak er listening today would actually agree that pre-specific legislation doesn't generally work.

Because basically it just shifts the goalpost to something else and then something else. And also that owners, caregivers should be. Effectively take into account a lot more.

But also, and I think this is really important, that we've been talking about this for years. And that actually it is, it is not appropriate or or or a very wise thing to do to basically arrive at this particular issue and address it as the end point, which is, you know, dogs which have behavioural problems. Being the centre of the issue, they are a manifestation of a wide, long standing set of issues that have been going on for years, and, you know, within this community, it is something that we've seen a huge amount of.

The optics count. They really do. And I'm not saying that we have to sell false images of Excel bullies or anything like that.

But it ultimately is, is, is being able to talk about our genuine, opinions, being able to talk about them authentically and trying to stay from any type of dog whistly, undertones. And, and kind of assertions about certain demographic groups, and effectively saying, look, you know, we feel this way and we feel that way, and keeping it very clear and making sure that people don't find an opportunity to to morph or change the words that we are saying. It's also ironically, an opportunity for the threatening community to.

Bring together a very large gap because we have found ourselves ironically on the side of quite a few breeders. And people who have exhale bullies who may have been disillusioned by vets previously for right or wrong reasons. And I think ironically it may be an opportunity for us to say, look, we also agree that Excel bullies aren't the issue, but what we need to do is be able to give you that information about how we actually.

Find ways to improve the behaviour of these animals and give you the kind of keys to the things that we know work. And what that means is, is having a better understanding of breeding and a, and a better understanding of behaviour and a better relationship with your vet. And the, and also starting to, to look at these animals as as extensions past the point of breeding.

Actually, their whole lives from, you know, from birth till death is important. And that if you are a breeder, you have a social responsibility to protecting these animals or doing your best to protect these animals as best as you can and doing your due diligence. And extending that beyond the scope of, well, X has been sold or Y has been sold, or how many litters.

And by fostering a better relationship with your vet and by extension, the vetary community, we may actually be able to improve some of the. Improve some of the dialogue that we're having, and it's something that I've spoken about myself, it's something that I noticed in the documentary and it's something that seems to be an ongoing problem, and there is a huge gap between us and a lot of people who like Excel bullies currently, whether it's discussing cropping ears, whether it's discussing aesthetic looks, it's discussing inbreeding or selective breeding, or fertility clinics, you know, er and whether or not we're discussing raw food. All these things are built from not just a a a a a lack of education, but is also built because we we are very distant from our, from that community.

And some of it is engendered by us, and we have to take responsibility for that, and some of that is engendered by that community, to, to, to take away some of the. Traditional power and influence that we have over, you know, communities where there are animals, and that's something we need to be really, really aware of. And you know, I, I, I think just as my final point whilst we wrap this up, is that I feel that.

This discussion brings up a debate about how we. As humans, first and foremost, see dogs. And Based on the kind of work and evidence out there, I do see a real issue with breed specific legislation.

But one thing that I, I do also feel is that actually we. Overstate. The type of Welfare that we think we are doing.

And I think what we need to do is reflect. In the sense that we have also managed to get caught up in the trap of focusing on on on breeding. As a process which is.

OK. And I've seen it before, there are good breeders and bad breeders. And I would like to personally bring it back and circle back round and saying, right, there can be good breeders, there can be bad breeders, and I fully admit that.

But are we as a cultural entity that we are. Also Focusing on the fact that whether or not they have a good or bad breeder, that actually if the education and the cultural world that we're we're part of, isn't really understanding the gravity of the whole life, then actually should we be. So focused on the breeding part.

And yes, humans can do a variety of different things at the same time and you know, as vets we'd typically and I'd like to think this, we typically would like to cover many different topics at the same time. But I think what we need to do is, is, is kind of engender a more. Overall holistic approach in the way that we see animals and the way that we move away from, you know, necessarily, the breeding element to it and and and look more towards, Right.

How can we make and help and support and educate people to understanding the whole life. And I know that's something that's been discussed a lot of, but I, I feel like there is a there's a huge step to go within our own community about how we have those conversations. And I feel that the moment that we stop saying, well this is a good breeder and thinking.

There you go, that's good, and leaving it at that, potentially we might be able to have a slightly wider conversation about the role of dogs, and, and breeding in particular with, with, with, with the wider and the public basically. And. You know, the, the, the, there was a, especially with the increased amount of money, especially with the, the, the kind of increased as far as I'm concerned, or increased lack of, of, of due diligence, .

We're only going to find there's diminishing standards. And we tend to, to make a hash of the idea that once they're sold, whether they're a good or bad breeder, that, you know, that, that we've done our bit. And I don't think necessarily that is always the, the best way to see it.

But you know I'm, I'm open to discussion and wider discussion about how we, we, we challenge this, because I really want to and I really mean this, and I'm sure many people listening will feel the same that we've really got to get a grip on it. And I, for one, am fed up of, of seeing people, seeing dogs villainized for being manifestations of the environment that they're from. I feel like if a dog is attacking people, then obviously that's something to be addressed.

And ultimately, I feel that that particular pattern will continue on regardless of whether there is breed specific legislation, or not, because we will always find something as humans do, always find something else which is bigger and badder, and, and, you know, go with that. And we, we always will end up chasing our tails, no pun intended. But I think the cultural change, which is a slow, mind boggling process and about how we see dogs fit the expectation of humans, and that goes to people in the vet community, outside the vet community, and animals maybe even as an extension of that, because that is a conversation that we probably will end up having to have as a result of talking about, you know.

These animals being dangerous because we've asked for an aesthetic look that fits a certain outcome that we'd want from them. You know, having a wider conversation about all these things and coming back to it in earnest might be a really good conversation to have. So that's, that's it, .

I've covered quite a lot. It's quite a, there's a huge amount of, of information there, and, you know, hopefully, this can spark or help, give people some context about some of the things that are, have been going on over the last week. By all means, I, I understand that some of the things that I've mentioned, you know, and it's, it's, it's a topic that is designed to create conversation.

And I am all open ears to hearing your er various views on this. But at Root, I just really want us to address the fact that, We need to help bridge the gap with regards to education in the art society, and I feel that. There are things that we can do to do that.

And licencing potentially could be a really. Early stage approach to how we approach this. I have my own reservations, .

But I, I'm, I'm all ears to discussing this further. And if you do have any questions, by all means, you can contact myself. Er at Dreyvet, D R E A D Y V E T on most social networks, or fire me over an email.

And, by all means, you know, it's something that we, we can discuss, more extensively. And I'm all ears. But yeah.

Hope that's been helpful and hopefully not the last time we do something like this. Thank you very much.