Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the number one UK's veterinary podcast, and I'm super thrilled today to have, Kelly Kesson and Kat Henstridge on the line today. We're gonna be talking about brachycephalic. And Kelly is a vet at the Dutch charity Deer and Dire, which is animals and the law.
And Cat is of course known across the world as Cat the vet, social media superstar. I think it's fair to say Cat. Thank you.
It's really great to have you both on, and we're gonna be talking about all things brachycephalic. Obviously, I think in the UK the French bulldog vies with the Labrador to be the the most popular UK breed. Pugs and English Bulldogs are also pretty high on that list, and there's been a real trend over the last 4 or 5 years to, to start pushing, you know, particularly BVA with discouraging companies from advertising, using brachycephalic dogs.
But I have to say, Kat, looking at the evidence, we are really lagging behind the European scene, aren't we, particularly, In the Netherlands, I know Kelly's going to talk about this, the Dutch are doing amazing things in just improving animal welfare because these are dogs that are obviously popular with people, but they suffer a lot with veterinary problems, don't they cats? Hugely, and when you really look at the evidence and the underlying medical problems that these dogs have, and how embedded within the breeds that they are, you know, how embedded in the breeds they are, . It becomes harder and harder to justify their existence on any level.
You know, once you start to look into it and start to learn about it and start to realise just how widespread, how constant, you know, and how extreme the suffering is simply because of the way the animals are bred to look, and we concentrate, of course, on the head end and the breathing. But you know, then we've also got the skin folds and the allergies, the spinal problems, the hip dysplasia, you know, front to back, tail folds, you know, front to back these dogs suffer, and . We need to do something about it and.
We've tried Consistently to educate and to change minds and to gently persuade and to push for breed standard changes and that sort of thing, and Europe now, we in the UK we're very behind because Europe has basically lost its patience and in rather than allowing the breeders and the breed clubs and the vets even to take the control. We've had our opportunity and quite frankly we've failed. Governments are stepping in and legislating against these animals because without, you know, we've tried the carrot and it's not worked, we've tried a very gentle stick and it's not worked, so.
European countries, Norway, has just had some legislation, the Netherlands has passed what I think is a fantastic law that's going to be incredibly successful. I think it's really the way to go. Other countries are coming and they've decided that enough is enough, that changes need to be made and unfortunately without, you know.
Law change, no change will happen. We, we'll bring Kelly in a second, but obviously in the UK we have the Kennel Club that decides on breed standards and. You kind of hope to see a more, you know, just a better approach, but it it seems that unfortunately the Kennel Club also moves extremely slowly, doesn't it?
Well, the problem is, is the Kennel Club actually has very little power over the breeds, it's the breed clubs that really have the power to change breed standards and to enact improvements. The Kennel Club is there. Overarching body, but they actually don't write the breed down as the breeds club do, the breed clubs do, and the kennel Club argument has always been that if they come down too hard, the breeds clubs will leave the kennel club, set up on their own and be completely out of that arrangement at all, whereas at least within the kennel club fold, there is some degree of accountability happening .
In the UK what we have is we have the brachycephalic Working Group, which is a an organisation that's got representatives from the Kennel Club, from the breed clubs, from the BVA, from the research arms, you know, from welfare organisations, and they all meet and they've all talked ad nauseam for years. I think it might even be a decade old and really. They have enacted 0 significant changes, really.
And unfortunately, I think it's because the the breed clubs are involved and there is a very, very stubborn refusal to, to change. They don't want to change. They don't want to change the way their animals look.
And so, you know, they're very focused on trying to improve health within. They're trying to improve health. It's not that they don't like their dogs, it's just that they like the dogs the way that they look.
So, you know, they're trying to improve health within their very restrictive boundaries of how these dogs, they think these dogs should look. But of course that means that. Improvements are at a glacial pace or even no pace at all.
So yeah, we. So perhaps perhaps if we highlight, you know, that there is very little change happening in the UK with the system that we're using over the last decade. The Dutch, bit more direct to be making some really good .
Movements forward, haven't they? I believe there was the the legislation that was passed, I think it was way back in 2014, so this is almost a decade old. So, Kelly, tell us where we're going wrong and how we can perhaps start to move in the right direction towards the the Dutch model.
Well, well, we have this legislation for almost a decade, but, when it started in 2014, nothing happened. We had a perfectly good law, article saying that you cannot breed with dogs with harmful features. But everything went on the same way.
So, we had to work hard to get it changed and, the first thing we did in 2016 was a big law enforcement request on 16 bulldog, French bulldog breeders, which bred according, the, the pedigree standards. And government said, well, this is nice that you have all these proof, but we don't see anything going wrong. We don't know what is a harmful nose harmful features.
So it was a very big thing to get criteria on the skull, and this request request was the basic way to go. Because everything, well, the breeders got angry about it and inspectors of the government said, OK, we can see that this is not OK, but what is, so then the University of Utrecht got . The task to, to make those criteria and in 2019 they were published in March and even then there was almost no enforcement at all.
The only enforcement came almost the only enforcement came from the request we did and at that point I think Kelly, there were warnings but no fines were there. In the beginning there were only warnings and no fines, that's true, and politicians had to step into it to get governments to act on the law and unfortunately there was a pandemic and Ukraine war that made inspectors have other things to do. But now, the minister has said we had a transitional period so you could use a French bulldog with a red snout with a very short snout and, and crossing it with a green snout.
It was, it was allowed until March until August 23 this year. But now the minister has said the transitional period is over. And we are going to enforce it very strictly now.
Kelly, perhaps we can just talk about these criteria of the skull because we've obviously got the green and the red and I think the intermediate stage. So perhaps can tell us what a green snout kind of looks like, but also, you know, what what you kind of should expect from a dog that has a, You know, a normal, a normal snout for a for a French bulldog or a a a pug or whatever. Well, for a pug or a French bulldog, it's not normal.
They do not meet those criteria for almost all of the time, but the green snout should have a nose which is half the skull length. So you measure it from from here. Till here.
This is the skull length and this is the nose length. So for a dog, it needs to be half. I think you'll need to do that for us again Kelly, for those who are listening, you will not have seen that Kelly turned her head, for those of you who are watching it on Webinar bet you will see the.
The model doing her work again, so you need to move over more and then do the, is it from the tip of the nose to the back of the head basically? There you go, I'm modelling it now, can you do it as well? Well, it's the forehead to the back of the sks from the forehead, right?
Yeah, that's the skull. That's the skull length. So the nose has to be at least 3.
Is it 3 of the length of the skull or a half a length of the skull, did you say? Well, if you go for green, then it's 12. If you go for orange, which is allowed, then it's a 3rd.
Right. And orange is only allowed if all the other 5 criteria are green. And of course, Kelly, we, you know, as a dermatologist, as somebody who used to treat these dogs, it's the.
It's the skin folds around the nose and the eyes and obviously as we talked about the, the bottom, these are dogs that need a lot of maintenance just to keep them in reasonable shape with their skin, you know, cleaning those often because they get fungal infections in there. And so with the green snout, I think there's no faults allowed are there? No, and that's the other criteria.
Yeah, well, well, that's what I was gonna say, this is so fabulous about the Netherlands, legislation and what we're talking about when we're talking about green, red and orange, is that this is an amazing graphic where it it's showing a a a normal dogs, it's in a cartoon form, a normal dog's face, and then a pug dog face and this . Green, orange and red, you know, the red very close to the face and then this orange section and then green and it, you know, any dog red within the green is OK. Any dog in the orange, which is quite a narrow, distance is is fine as long as, like you say, there's other criteria like nasal folds and the ability to close their eyes.
Absolutely. That's not an unreasonable thing to expect, is it? But it's what's brilliant about the graphic is it is so simple and so obvious and it's and so clear, you know, because I think a lot of the time we talk, you know, as people who are really involved in this situation all the time, we understand it intuitively from our education and our experiences.
But the vast majority of ordinary people just, you know, see pogs and French bulldogs and think, oh, they're cute, and they are cute and and they are popular, . But that graphic is what is so fabulous because it is so obvious, and when you see it like that, you realise how debilitated and and disabled these animals are. And the criteria for the law are so simple.
And so basic. We need an animal that can close its eyes when it goes to sleep. And then not precisely.
And then when you spell it out like that. Not only is it a very, you know, because the criteria is so clear, like Kelly said, it's very easy to judge very quickly whether these dogs are breaking the law or their breeders are breaking the law or not, and therefore follow that up with fines. But also it's very easy to.
For the ordinary pet owner and the and the dog lover to see it. Hm. Kelly, just to make it clear, so.
In the Netherlands, you cannot now breed a French bulldog or a pug. Is that correct? No, yeah, well, that's correct.
Yes, yes. And I try to share the, the picture, Katz was telling about, but I'm not so good at it. No, it's showing it's good.
It's good for those who are listening, do look out for the notes below the podcast and we'll make sure we put this picture in or we find some way of directing you to the picture because it does make it very, very clear. Yes, well, it, it is for forbidden to breed a pug or a French bulldog. Yes, but if the dog has green, is green in the criteria, and some French bulldogs are, then you can breed with it.
So it's not a breeding ban, it's a criteria ban. Yeah, I think it's really interesting, Kelly, because if you look back at pictures from 200 years ago. You know, British pictures, the English bulldog was.
A working dog, you know, he was a, he was a sort of hunting dog against the bulls and so on and, you know, controlling them and and. You know, a very fit athletic animal, and of course as time has gone by, we've basically shortened the nose through breeding. So it would be lovely to see the bulldog coming back without the folds and with a longer nose, so breeding those.
Debilitating features out which, as Kat says are attractive to some people, but are not healthy for the dog and not good for the dog's welfare, I think would be, it would be great to see that breed being resurrected into an athletic animal again. An athletic animal and without all the inbreeding. Yeah, that's the point, these breeds aren't banned.
There's no ban of these breeds, you know, all, all the law says is that they need to be bred, you know. With a healthy ability to breathe and and this law very concentrates very much on the, you know, head end of the dog. Like I said earlier, there's issues with the spine and hips and whatnot, but you know, clearly the the the biggest suffering is the head.
But there's no ban. These dogs can still be bred, they just need to be bred with a face, and then, and everything can can carry on. And if you, I don't know if you're aware of the, there's a Facebook group called Crufer which if you are at all interested in this subject and these issues, then I would really recommend that you join.
Which is run by Jemima Harrison, who did the pedigree Dogs exposed documentaries. And they regularly share, don't they, Kelly, because I'm sure you're in there, pictures of French bulldogs that have been bred with noses and are being bred, like you say, that's sort of more, you know, back to that original. And they look like French bulldogs.
They look like French, if you showed that dog to, again, a member of the public who wasn't involved in these debates and said, what breed of dog is that, they would almost certainly get it right. Because they still look like a French bulldog, they, and then you next to the show standard dog, you know, with its, you know, it could, you know, it's face so flat you could put a ruler up against it. And you realise how ridiculous they are.
Yeah, there's there's no, there's no excuse for it anymore and there's no ban, which again is what is so brilliant about this this Dutch legislation. Yeah, and I suppose cats if you. If you took that dog to a dog show with the long nose, it probably wouldn't win the show.
It, it would, it wouldn't, it wouldn't get anywhere near the show, you know, it would because it just here to the breed standards, but it is still a member of a member of the breed. And you know, this is, this is, this is the problem and this is the mindset that we have to change and. I think it's the public opinion is going to be the key really to just go, well.
Obviously that's a French bulldog. Why actually do they look so extreme when clearly this breed can look like a lot less extreme and still be very, very recognisable, and that's already happening, isn't it, in Holland, Kelly, that public opinion of the severity of the breeding because of the publicity of this law is now really shifting, isn't it? Well, we have really have flat face shaming.
People who are, are walking their pugs or French bulldogs, in parks or wherever, they get, messages from other people that why do you have such a, a snoring animal, it's not healthy, and they get a feeling of, of shaming that they have such a dog. And this is a good thing. They start immediately start explaining, well, I adopted him or I didn't know before, so this is a very good thing.
Public opinion is, is really changing. And a more a better thing even is that, that our government said beginning of this year, they are going to have a keeper's ban, so there will be a trade ban on these animals in the Netherlands, if it goes like he said in January. And it means that people will not be allowed to buy or sell these dogs anymore, and this is very important because now breeders cannot breed these dogs in the Netherlands.
If they breed a dog with a longer snout, they don't get pedigrees, unfortunately, and they have a problem cause their dog gives them less. Yeah, money, cash, and people buy these, still buy these dogs from out of the country. They come from other countries into the Netherlands and we don't solve the problem yet.
So the trade ban will be there and we already got a trade ban for cats, for Scottish fault cats, and it probably starts in January 2025. So this is a start. Interestingly, Kelly, though, I believe in the Netherlands, companies can still use brachycephalic dogs and cats to to advertise their wares.
That's something that hasn't been banned yet. No, still, that this is also a law that has been announced. The advertisement with animals with harmful features will also be prohibited, .
But it takes a little time or a big time to to change the laws to get it done, but it's announced. We, we are the same in the UK, although I think BBA have been very good at approaching companies that use Reikycephalics, haven't they cats and trying to encourage them not to use these animals in advertising going forward. Yes, that's been, and it's not legally, it's not illegal in the UK, but there has been a game, and that was the point of the rufer.
It stands for campaign against flat-faced animals in advertising. That's how that started, and that's how that went, you know, and if you think about it, you don't really notice until you think, but if you think back in the UK, you know, even just 2 or 3 years ago, you would see pugs on everything, notebooks and. Mugs and bedding and all sorts and always in an advert, you know, and always and, and that it has been an incredibly successful campaign and public led.
This is the other thing is you know you need to get that public opinion and once you start pointing these things out, people have very quickly come on board because it's such an obvious problem when you, when you explain it well. And now any business that has an advert that has a flat face animal in it, I absolutely guarantee you within an hour they will receive emails or messages on social media from just members of the public saying, are you aware that there is a campaign against this, and then the BVA came on board, so they weren't the instigators, but they have legitimised it, you know, so they took it and went, this is an amazing idea, they wrote a document and of course if you're gonna, you know, ring up. A national company to be able to then send them the BVA document and say, you know, this isn't just my opinion, this is the opinion of the leading veterinary body in the UK.
It has been fantastically successful and and and and removed these dogs and highlighted all the other wonderful breeds that we have and so this, you know, that sort of. Almost subliminal messaging that they are desirable and that they are cute and that they are attractive has been pulled back. That doesn't mean to say that people still don't think that, but certainly that has been a real cultural shift that has been incredibly successful and it just shows you how something so simple, you know, when you hit on a brilliant idea can be so great and, and you know this, the public opinion.
I I understand the shaming, I do, and I, I, it makes me uncomfortable because I don't want people to feel bad about owning their animals. I want them to love them, I want them to care for them, I want them to enjoy owning their animal. But we still need, there has to be that mindset change that there is a problem with them, and that, you know, love this pug, but next time maybe don't buy one.
But Rowena Packer's done a load of work, hasn't she, to show that, and it will be interesting to see if in the Netherlands that actually that public opinion changes. Other people's actions, you know, if somebody, if it becomes. I can tell you about that if you want.
Oh yeah, well, well let me just, because in the UK Rowena Pack has done quite a bit of work to show that at the RVC to show that people will buy a buy a French bulldog, buy a pug, have an enormous amount of health problems, realise it's suffering and struggling, have to put it to sleep even because of those issues, and then they will go and buy another one. That that experience of owning an ill animal. In the UK doesn't seem to be following, so I'd be so interested to know what you're you're finding over there.
Yeah, well, we, we did research, and, and this was what I saw in practise what you're telling me like that you put a French bulldogs asleep because of a hernia or whatever other very bad problems he has and they buy a new one. But we have information from Pet plan. This is an insurance company for animals, for health problems.
And we have several years of French Bulldogs insurances information and they said that last year, beginning from the campaign we started last year, the amount of insurances dropped 7% in French bulldogs only. So this, this is a number we can use to say people are buying less French books. I think, Kelly, this was your campaigner Corp courts.nl.
Which basically translates into don't buy, short, shorter nose dogs. A flat face dog, yeah, yeah, flat face those posters are so direct, were those pet plan figures, are they for the Netherlands or are they for Europe? What, what, what, where are those in the Netherlands, in the, yeah, so I need, and, and this is, this is what's sad, isn't it, is.
We've tried to be nice and we've tried to be understanding and we've tried to educate. And until you actually come out with some really hard hitting and sometimes almost being a little, a little bit unkind to people. Nothing is changing and then how, how long has this, how long have those posters been out Kelly, because they were, they were with you guys last year, weren't they?
Well, we started this campaign with the dogs, behind my back, in August last year. And now we just started, we added the cats, so we have cat posters now, and we translated it into English, so it's now don't buy a flat face dog or cat, and you can find it on the internet, in English. There will be quite a significant backlash because how, how were they, how were those posters accepted in the Netherlands because they're so direct, this animal, you know, what's, what's this one that's like, don't buy one and then there's like a flat face, oh, a flat face is is a disgrace.
That's the one which is really a flat face comes at a price. Yeah, how, how were they initially viewed by the general public? Was there an instant acceptance or did you actually have quite a backlash from people who who took this very personally?
Both, the, the people who own these animals were very, Well, upset, yes, that's a good word, very upset, and some of them were very angry, but, veterinarians, they are so happy with it because they, a lot of veterinarians didn't speak out because they are afraid of their client going away to other people. I don't know what. And now they are all together, all saying this together.
It's not only one fed or one organisation, no we did it all together with vets and welfare organisations. And they are very comfortable to speak out now and and it spread out very quickly. We had more than 2.5 million impressions in the Netherlands in within 2 weeks or so.
And that's a lot. If I can just give my perspective on this, I think. Knowing the Dutch and the Belgians quite well, you are much more direct than us, and we are very polite, and we don't like to offend anybody, and so we will pussyfoot around issues, whereas the Dutch, you know, and generalising apart because obviously I, you know, I accept, but.
You are much more direct and I think there's real pros in that. I was speaking to a Dutch man that we work with and they say, you know, the Dutch sometimes can be too direct, you can be too polite, you know, it's probably, I mean this is obviously working and I think it's, it's really good. I think the difficulty for for a vet, you know, and I obviously had bulldogs and and pugs coming into my practise is that.
We become a vet because we love animals and we become a vet because we want to make sick animals better. And so, when a pug comes into our practise with a skinfold problem or whatever the problem is, we want to make it better and. You know, there's definitely that side.
I don't think it's a money thing, but I, I think you don't want to hurt people's feelings because they've now got that dog and it's as you're saying, Kat, we've tried all the gentle, oh, you know, the dog isn't, you know, these are not the most healthy. They need a lot of high maintenance. If you get a bulldog, it's a dog that you need to spend time with every day to clean the folds out, which are very smelly and unpleasant.
And yet, that dog dies usually before it reaches 10, and then they get another bulldog. So, you know, we clearly as vets in the UK have not done it well enough to say, well, if you're going to go for a bulldog, get a bulldog with a longer nose, but of course, you know, in the UK they don't really exist, do they cats? No, well, well, in the Netherlands, it's, it's not all, happy thing or so because the pedigree dogs, the Kennel Club still gives pedigrees to dogs who are bred like that, who do not meet the criteria, and we started a lawsuit against them, public lawsuit to stop them doing this because they are, messing with people.
With giving those pedigrees to those dogs. And it's not just Holland, is it? That's the other amazing thing, you know, Anthony you say about the rest of, you know, I think that direct attitude is actually quite.
European, in many ways, and we've had some legislation from Norway, and then Kelly, you know, don't you, that there's other, is it, is it Germany and Denmark are also on a similar track now? Yes, so it will spread out and then I think England just has to go with it, go with the flow, just to be polite. I, I agree, Kelly, and, and usually I apologise at this point for, for Brexit and leaving.
Europe because I still feel that I'm a European, so I apologise, although I have to say I didn't vote to leave. So we, we, we still think of ourselves as Europeans and I think this is an area that we're really being led by you, Kelly. Often the Dutch are so innovative in their approach, and it's amazing work that you're doing.
I think it's . It's for the animal, it's for the welfare and the health of the animals, so it's so, so important. We as vets in the UK all make a commitment to, you know, look after the animals under our care and to, you know, to do no harm.
And . I think we both agree that perhaps we need to step up more on this issue, don't we? You were obviously already doing it.
Well, if I can give her an advice, just go, . Get lawsuits because then you you get the government have to go forward. So with lawsuits, we did it.
It was not another way to get it done. I think I think that's I think that's very true. I think that's and I have tried and tried over the years.
I think we all have in so many different ways to improve the situation and to, you know, Reduce the welfare suffering of these of these breeds, and nothing is working, nothing, nothing has worked in any significant way in in here in the UK nothing has worked. And now Europe is showing us, showing us the way forward because they tried as well. It's not like we were doing it by ourselves and they suddenly have come out of nowhere with legislation changed, but you know, the European countries have realised that that nothing else is going to achieve the aims of improving the welfare of the dogs that are are in our care.
And you know, Britain is a very different, a different environment, you know, more populous, more disorganised, lots of breeders, you know, we talk a lot about the Kennel Club, but of course they represent a tiny proportion of the people who are actually producing dogs here, . So I don't know whether we will ever follow with legislative change, I'd be delighted if we did, but I, I just can't see that in our sort of social landscape anytime soon. But this movement is, is coming and the in addition to the legislative change, like Kelly says it's that public perception that is changing, and it is that that, you know, societal and social pressures are gonna have as much impact if you can raise the awareness at the bar and make people understand what is happening, you know, the Brits are many things, but one thing we are is animal lovers.
And if we can get, if we can somehow get that message across, you know, that's public opinion and attitude shift will also be very, very powerful. Yes. Kelly, Kat, thank you so much.
This is such an important issue, it's been great to have both of you on and thank you for the amazing work you're doing in this area. It's, it is so so important. So thank you once again for giving your time to, to chat to us today.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity and thanks to her to be here. No, it's great to have you. I think, I think it's awesome what you've done.
Thanks everyone for listening, this is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet, and this has been Vet Chat. Take care. Speak soon, bye bye.
