Hello, Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vets, so pleased to have you all on another episode of Vet Chat. As you know, we've been really concentrating on sustainability issues over the last few months, particularly with COP 26 coming up or has come up and gone now. And we're very fortunate today to have Mark Jones from Born Free Foundation, who I wanted to bring on, I've been friends with Mark for a number of years.
We did a a webinar with Virginia McKenna, who was obviously on the Born Free film, many moons ago. I think I looked up recently, it was 1966, which was the year of my birthmark, and it was one of those films. Definitely was part of my development in wanting to be a vet, and very much, perhaps one of the first films that showed animals as individuals, that anthropomorphic element that I know at the time, Virginia spoke about.
So really interested to, to talk to you a little bit about the history of, of Born Free. How that fits in as a conservation charity. I know obviously animal welfare is also very strong in that, but also with cop.
Happening, how does that fit in with sustainability, causes COP 26 has talked a lot about climate, but as we all know, we also want a very biodiverse landscape in which to live in, and that biodiversity certainly in the UK is decreasing all the time. So perhaps tell us a little bit about the history of, Born free, obviously in its previous iteration, Zuchek, and why it was born and how you see that fitting in, into this sort of conservation debate that we're having at the moment. Well, hi, Antony, it's really, really good to be with you today and thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to, to have a chat to you.
So yeah, it's born free. I've been with Born Free about 7 years now. my background, I have a veterinary background.
I spent many years working with domestic and, farm animals, but, latterly spent some time. In Latin America and Asia, working with, with wild animals, most of which were victims of wildlife trade that were, arriving at rescue centres and sanctuaries for either life lifetime care or release back into the wild. And that's really what got me, so interested in the plight of wildlife and the way and our relationship with wildlife and the decline in the natural world.
And I came back, when I came back to the UK I I joined the NGO world and I've been working on policy issues ever since and for the last 7 years for the wonderful Born Free Foundation. A little bit of the history of Born Free, Born Free was formed in 1984 and it was originally called Zoochek. And it was founded by the actors Virginia McKenna and Will Bill Travis and their son Will, and as you say, Virginia and Bill starred in the film Born Free.
Virginia is still very active. Bill sadly passed away a few years ago, but Virginia and her son Will are still very, very active. And it was founded because, of the experiences of the actors, particularly following the making of a film called An Elephant called Slowly, which was about an elephant in Kenya whose real name was Poly Poly and who ended up being donated after the film was made by the Kenyan government and against the wishes of the actors to to London Zoo.
And who, who subsequently died, while being transferred from London to Whitsonate. And it was really the, the plight of poly poly and the concerns of the actors for the conditions that, the elephant was being, experiencing in the zoo that that inspired them to, to form the charity Zoocheck, which was originally very much about highlighting. The plight of of captive animals in zoos.
But over the years, Born Free has grown to become a much broader organisation. These days we talk a lot about compassionate conservation. So, we're very much an organisation that promotes, wildlife conservation and biodiversity and ecosystem protection and my goodness, how we need that in this day and age.
But always with the, welfare of individual animals that's our hearts, and that's where the sort of compassionate side of compassionate conservation comes in. And we're very fond of saying that conservation should always start with consideration of the individual and the needs of the individual and how the individuals fit within family groups, wider populations, and ultimately the broader ecosystem. And so I think it's fair to say that when most people think about born free, they think about work with with animals, wild animals, our animal rescues, our sanctuaries, our wildlife conservation programmes in parts of Africa and Asia, and our wildlife campaigning and education work.
And they'd be absolutely right to think that. But the world is currently facing three major crises, that have really been caused by people's dysfunctional or broken relationship with the natural world. So we have the climate crisis, with all the problems associated with global warming and extreme weather events that we've been seeing on our TV in terms of COP 26 over recent, recent weeks up in Glasgow.
We have the biodiversity crisis with a million species at risk of extinction, with wildlife and nature disappearing at unprecedented rates, and we have the human health crisis with the world having almost been brought to a standstill by. COVID-19, which has resulted in the deaths of, I believe, around 5 million people and affected the health of hundreds of millions more and disrupted pretty much everyone's lives. And what I think we're just beginning to realise is that all these crises are really closely interlinked and that you really can't approach them or find solutions to them in isolation from each other.
So, We believe that protecting nature, keeping wildlife in the wild, and that concern for individual animals and their families and populations and the ecosystems to which they belong, is really critical, not just for the sake of the biodiversity crisis, but also as a really important factor in addressing. The climate crisis and in trying to mitigate the risks to human health. From viruses like COVID-19.
It's very much circle of life, isn't it, the, the Lion King film and and looking at this problem in a, in a hand and holistic way, because it's not a simple problem, it's a complicated problem, and if we only look at it in one area, so we improve the climates, but at the same time we, we, you know. Do that in ways that destroys the environment or or biodiversity, then that isn't really a solution. So, it's a, it's a really good point.
I mean, we've obviously talked a little bit about . About Born 3, obviously previously Zuchek, in a sense. Conserving the environment is the most important, but until we do that properly.
It's hard to release all the zoo animals because they can be a . They can also to help help protect some species that are getting close to extinction, or do you see the conservation work that zoos do is, is actually perhaps overinflated a little bit for publicity reasons? Well, I, as, as, as we said, you know, Born Free had its origins, in the concerns of the, the founders for the plight of, zoo animals, animals, which really started with, with a single elephant, but that has, has extended way, way beyond that.
So, and, you know, we would like to see a day where we no longer . Either breed animals for, captive keeping for primarily, human entertainment purposes or take animals from the wild, for the same purpose. We'd love to see a world where, where that no longer happens.
And that would be the ultimate aim of Born free. But, we recognise that, you know, zoos and some other circumstances in which wild animals are held in captivity aren't going to go away anytime soon. And, you know, while they are here, we, we campaign, really hard to raise awareness of the, of the, suffering, that, that many animals endure in in captivity.
And we try and raise the standards, to which zoos are, are, are keeping animals. And we also try and, you know, question and ask the zoo community itself to constantly question, it's real value, to wildlife conservation and to to meaningful education. because zoos will often, claim that they are centres of conservation, that they're centres of wildlife for education, that they, they are the centres that inspire people to become, you know, the next generation of, of conservationists and so forth.
And that's not to say that some zoos and zoological associations don't do good work. They, they do, you know, some of them do very good research work. But we would always question the value of keeping animals, in captivity and breeding animals for captivity, which, let's face it, they're primarily there for the entertainment of the public to pull people through the doors and so forth, and, you know, how necessary that is going forward in order to support that conservation work, and how, .
How much of a useful educational experience that is for the, for the wider public. For me, there are many, many better ways that we can educate, the public about, wildlife and biodiversity and its complexity and its importance. And seeing animals incarcerated in zoos, many of which will be displaying all sorts of abnormal repetitive behaviours and so forth, for me isn't a a a good way of, of, providing that educational experience.
I remember . Chester Zoo, obviously a long time ago, but polar bears showing awful stereotypic behaviour, and I think pretty much no one has polar bears in their, in their zoos now. But of course, at the same time we're destroying their environment, so it's a really a great point that you're making that, you know, we have to look after and conserve the environment, and this is the way that we, we save species, don't we?
Exactly, yes, you know, we're not, there are circumstances where, some species have benefited in conservation terms or certainly in terms of of reintroducing perhaps individual animals that have been bred in captivity have contributed to increasing populations of of critically endangered species. But, when you look at this from a holistic perspective, those examples are few and far between, and the research that we do, and this is research that was done in the UK that we released fairly recently, suggests that the vast majority of species held in UK zoos aren't species that are of serious conservation concern or for. Which captive breeding in zoos in the UK has been identified as a as a conservation need for those species.
So there are circumstances where captive breeding might be and can be useful and in some cases essential conservation tool but for the vast majority of species that that zoos hold that, that's not the purpose. That's not why they. I noticed, I, I follow a lot of the work of the WWT and they're giving curlews and black-tailed godwis a start by taking eggs, breeding those eggs and then helping to release those.
And in fact, when I was in NP, the way that they started to get the, the white storks coming back was again by having some almost captive breeding at the estate, which then attracted other birds in, so there's. There's definitely a place, but of course that method is much more extensive than perhaps the methods that you've been discussing that happen in zoos and so on. Exactly, and so I think you know, we've got to really look at where the circumstances where, .
Breeding or some kind of human interference and assistance in order to, you know, assist with the breeding and protection of, of critically endangered species so that they can repopulate an area might be suitable. but if you look at the, International Union for the Conservation of Nature's guidelines on, breeding for, for reintroduction. Or augmentation of wild populations.
One of the, one of the critical pieces of advice is that those breeding programmes should be happening close to where you're planning to reintroduce the species, not in a zoo that's maybe in a different country or a different continent. So I think we've got to look very carefully about the circumstances where, where captive breeding, might have a role, a conservation role to play, but on the whole, as I say, the animals that are held in zoos are not there in order for them to be bred and released into the wild. We're obviously in the middle of the coronavirus pandemic, or hopefully getting towards the end, but it's been a long, almost two years.
I, I actually fell victim of COVID about a month ago, thankfully double vaccinated, so it was, it was a bit easier than perhaps it would have been. Amazing that we've been able to create a vaccine within a year, but I think these two things are a little bit also linked with the wildlife trade, you know, some of the decrease in biodiversity we see pangolins in wet markets, bats in wet markets, dead animals, live animals. Where the COVID virus came from, you know, we're not certain whether it was out of a, out of a laboratory or from a, a, a wet market, but inevitably, pandemics are gonna become more likely as we expand the population, we reduce our wild areas, we begin to mix up that sort of those areas as well, and I think this is where, you know, also, Born free are very much interested in the kind of one health one welfare aspect which I think links in with this wildlife trade.
You know, what have you, what are your thoughts around that and how. The wildlife trade and the pandemic kind of does connect up and also that lack or that loss of biodiversity through the, the almost industrial trading of some of these increasingly rare animals that are, are farmed for all sorts of bizarre reasons, not just the food. Certainly, you know, I I think they, whatever the origins of COVID end up being, if we ever truly find out, .
Nevertheless, it's, it's, you know, worth reflecting on the, the estimates that there might be about 1.7 million viruses, among wild animals. And, and I believe about half of those are are thought to be.
Potentially zoonotic in, in other words, have the potential to, to cross maybe via, you know, a number of species, into people, and we should remember that something like 3/4 of all emerging infectious diseases that we see these days originate from wildlife. And that, that, you know, that sound, they sound like really scary numbers, but what we have to remember is that these viruses and other pathogens, that exist in wildlife, when that wildlife is, living in its natural habitat, in functional ecosystems, it's very rare that it will ever cause a problem. It's only when we interfere, when we when we destroy nature, when we come into much closer contact with wild animals than we otherwise would or we bring wild animals in very close contact with each other, which wouldn't normally happen, or with domestic animals which wouldn't normally happen.
That, we stress these animals that viruses and other pathogens start to, you know, perhaps multiply and animals start to shed them more frequently and perhaps they pass through other species and mutate in various ways, and then they become much more likely to mutate into forms and to end up in situations where they might transfer to people. So it's, it's not about regarding wildlife generally as a risk. It's about the way that we interact with wildlife that creates the risk to us.
And that's what we really have to focus on. And the wildlife trade, the trading and trafficking of wildlife, both legal and illegal, is a massive part of this problem. It's a huge Huge, huge industry globally, it involves extraction of the masses of of wild animals from the wild for use in trade for all kinds of purposes, as you've said, and these days it also involves the farming of many wild species on in some circumstances an industrial scale.
In order to, you know, provide food or other products, and, this is something that's grown, you know, very, very rapidly in recent years. And when you subject these animals to those kind of conditions, which they're not evolved to thrive in. Then you're creating the kinds of conditions where viruses can very easily multiply and mutate and transfer between species.
So I think we do have to address these problems. COVID has resulted in some actions that have been taken by some countries. So for instance, China often identified as obviously, you know, as a potential source of COVID, but often identified as being problematic in terms of, you know, wildlife trade and the trafficking, introduced a a ban on the production on their farming and production and and trading and sale of wild animals for the purpose of human consumption.
Which was, very interesting to see. Vietnam did something similar. There are loopholes in that for, for other purposes.
They still allow the farming of animals for fur or or for the production of, traditional medicinal products and so on. But, but some of the actions taken there were quite progressive, and it was very interesting to see the likes of the World Health organisation and the World organisation for Animal Health, the OIE and the United Nations Environment programme produced its joint statement which suggested that you know, that we really need to identify those high risk activities for the sake of our own health, and, and, ban the trade in and farming of, animals for human consumption, wild animals for human consumption. So, there have been some good, good, things that have, emerged following the the COVID crisis, but we still have a massive problem to solve.
And obviously, you know, looking at the whole issue of wildlife trade and trafficking and, you know, the destruction of habitats and the access that that gives to to wildlife for the purpose of trade and trafficking, you know, these are issues that we really do need to address on a, on a global scale if we're going. Make inroads into the biodiversity crisis and if we're going to mitigate the risk of human future human pandemics. I think it's really interesting we're at a pivotal moment and I'd like to think in 5 years we come back and we say, You know, the pandemic taught us lessons, I think a lot of people have learned to appreciate hearing the birds singing and so on.
But I, I hope it will be a time of. Looking back and saying it was a time of sacrifice, but we actually learned lessons that we were able to take into creating a better world. Obviously we've just had COP 26.
Perhaps as a a finish, you very much work at the front line of a lot of this work, and I thank you, you know, as a fellow veterinarian for, for being involved in that and, and taking the animal welfare so seriously. But do you see, do you, do you see, reasons to be optimistic moving forward, or does this sort of work just lead you into a deeper and deeper depression and malaise, Mark? I think we have to be optimistic.
we have to think that human beings, and, you know, let's face it, these crises, these three major global crises that we currently face have all been caused by human activities. But we have to, we have to believe that human beings are capable. Of not just identifying the solutions to these problems and and in a sense identifying solutions to the problems isn't isn't isn't really the issue.
It's implementing those solutions at a scale which which is actually going to seriously address those problems, that, that seems to be the stumbling block that we always face. So, but I think we, we do have to retain our optimism. COP 26 is interesting.
I've, I've, you know, obviously followed it very closely and I've, I've looked at some of the responses from colleagues in across the, the wildlife NGO sector and others. And I, I think, you know, what I get is a general impression that people were underwhelmed and disappointed with the outcomes of COP 26. But what we're looking at here are the sort of high level political outcomes and, and getting consensus on these major issues at a political level across the globe is always going to be difficult and, and, and complex because there are so many financial and economic and political interests at play here.
So I think we're always going to end up being disappointed with those kind of outcomes, but where what does give me optimism is the level of, of public understanding, and the, the level of public concern that's emerging around the COP. We saw the protests in Glasgow which were reflected in, in public gatherings in all kinds of other countries. We've seen.
You know, the responses from, you know, civil society organisations and, and, and activists, who are, you know, really concerned about these issues, and we've seen a sort of groundswell of, of, you know, public calls for, for, for, for real and . And meaningful action and by real and meaningful action, I don't just mean that, you know, we call on governments to take action. We have to be prepared to back that up with individual actions, because although, you know, a lot of people say to me, well what can I do?
I'm just an individual. But the small steps that individuals can take if they're taken collectively at a very large scale. What's going to make a massive, massive difference, and obviously COP 26 has been focusing on climate change, although as I've said earlier, I don't think you can divorce the climate change issue from the biodiversity issue or the the pandemic issue.
We have another COP coming up next year called COP 15, which is, the, the Convention on on Biological Diversity's big meeting, which is going to happen in China in May. It's been delayed because of COVID. And that's gonna be making really important political decisions about how we manage the biodiversity crisis and how we try and reverse the biodiversity and nature crisis going forwards.
So that's something that Born Free and many other organisations are going to have a big presence at and where we'll really be calling for. Meaningful agreements to be made and meaningful changes to be made in the, in the way that we regard our our relationship with nature and the way that we, that we treat the natural world and all the animals and species that that that belong to it. It's a great point, Mark, because I think there are 3 constituents, there is the government, there is individual and there is business, and sometimes it's very easy to pass the buck.
And blame somebody else for it, and clearly everybody has to contribute. But as Greenpeace said, you know, think globally but act locally. I was walking along the beach today, and I saw a paint pot in the sea, and I picked up the paint pot and I've also picked up various other pieces of rubbish, threw them in the nice skip that's provided by the council.
And it's 4 or 5 items out of the sea. It's 4 or 5 items less in the sea, so all those tiny little contributions we make do make a difference, you know, I also share your enthusiasm and optimism, . That we can create a better, a better way, and, and this is why we're doing these podcasts as well to encourage vets and vet nurses and people in the profession as a global group of people, we are looked up to by members of the public and you know, together we can do great things, so thank you so much for encouraging us.
To continue to work and to, to make those little differences which individually aren't much, but as you say add up to a great deal potentially. Thank you very much. Thanks so much, Mark, that was great, thank you.
