Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of the UK's number one veterinary podcast, Vet Chat. And I am honoured, honoured and privileged today to have Henry Lamb here, who is the Young Vett of the year 2023, as voted for by BBA. Congratulations on that, Henry, and welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much. That's a very warm, warm intro. I, yeah, I've got I've got to live up to the title for the next year, but, yeah, no, honestly, yeah, very grateful to have, to have been selected, but, yeah, still, still processing it.

Yeah, brilliant Henry. Well, I was at the dinner and it sounded like you were up against two other, very good candidates, but obviously doing some really good stuff, qualified from the Royal Veterinary College in 2018 and almost immediately you've, and it sounds like during . University times you had this deep interest in population, science and also in in poultry, and that's where you found yourself down in deepest, darkest Norfolk, isn't it?

Well, yeah, so I, I was born in Norfolk, so I'll come back home, but I'm born in Great Yarmouth of all places. So not that, not that you should admit to that on a podcast, but there we go. So yeah, no, I come back home to work, although we, we work in lots of other places in the country.

But yes, no, started, started sort of an interest in poultry, probably from the age of about 16 when I first worked on a, on a poultry farm. There's plenty of them in Norfolk, so I got some exposure. And, yeah, sort of.

Kept it as a background interest throughout university and to be honest, I, I was interested in everything at that school. I, I had a go at everything in rotations, thinking it would rule things in and out, but it didn't rule anything out, so I just had to make a decision in final year and. This was still something I was interested in, and I thought, hey, population medicine, I'll I'll give it a go, and I haven't looked back since, so yeah.

And it's always good to throw yourself into things, isn't it? If you, if you hold yourself back, you don't know what you're, what you're missing. Yeah, well, I did have some other, I did have some other offers job but I think one of them was, perhaps even dairy in New Zealand and sort of quite, you know, quite exciting things that were non poultry related, but I always thought I would end up coming back to doing something that was sort of larger population medicine, public health type role.

And the, the offer was here and I had the chance to, to come back home to Norfolk and come back to the community that I enjoy living in. So I thought, well, why not? The offer's there, and, might as well start now.

Well, I, I'm the same, I was born in Liverpool, went to university in Liverpool, went out for a couple of years doing the, the mixed practise that most vets at that time did and then gravitated back into Liverpool to do to do small animal practise, so . It's, it's not unusual to like where you've been brought up, is it? So, well done for getting back.

Obviously you were talking about New Zealand there, you know, the cattle, dairy industry, quite extensive compared with the UK's intensive industry. You've obviously gone into an industry poultry which is also quite intensive. I mean, how is how is the situation there?

I know you you're also working with Game beds, which is, Extensive. The poultry industry seems to have a bit of intensive which is around the meat production, but a lot of eggs now are produced via free range, aren't they, and, and breeding and so on. So what, what's the state of the poultry industry?

It's, it's a growing industry, isn't it? We're eating more and more chicken, we're seen as a, as a greener meat, I suppose, by some people. What, what, what, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, definitely in terms of, in terms of an industry, it's a lot more varied, I guess, than comparing something like cattle and the fact that, as you say, you've either sort of got dairy and beef. Yeah, I guess for poultry we've got lots of different species that are within that, and, and how, how a goose farm and a duck farm looks compared to how a chicken or a turkey farm looks can be quite different. And within that, obviously we've then got meat types and, and egg types.

So we've got quite a lot of variety for an industry that I think a lot of people figure as being quite niche, but actually there's quite a lot of variety. As you say, there's a real mix. So if you're going into, say, the commercial layer sector in, in the UK at least, the majority of the, the eggs that are laid and produced here will be free range.

That's definitely what the UK consumer is after. Then we have some organic flocks, and we do still have some, some barn flocks. There are still a very small number of cage layer flocks.

Battery cages are no longer a thing. They haven't been a thing for over a decade now. There are enriched cages, but, you know, there's a, there's a sort of a real mix in terms of the layer sector.

If you compare it to other parts of Europe, it's quite different. For example, the Netherlands, loads of barn eggs, you know, they tend to be more, more of an indoor system. So there's quite a lot of variety even compared to our, our closest neighbours.

As you say, the meat sector perhaps tends to be a little bit more sort of indoors. You know, a lot of turkey producers, a lot of duck producers will be in sort of more kind of traditional Yorkshire bordered. Indoor barns that people would recognise more perhaps as a farm building.

But that's not to say that there aren't free range meat birds. There are quite a lot of free range broiler chickens in, in the UK. And they still have a brood and move type system.

But yeah, as you say, there's quite a lot of variety, in terms of efficient use of feed and efficient use of land space, . Poultry seems to be the way to go if you want to grow protein sustainably. I mean, that and aquaculture, that and fish.

But, yeah, it's, it's certainly an interesting and quite a dynamic sector to be in with a lot of variety in terms of where it's going, and because it's more sustainable, does, does feel like it's probably gonna be here long term, still to come, especially worldwide. It's interesting, you know, looking at barn eggs, which I know were more popular 2030 years ago, we seem to, I seem to see less of them in the, in the shops, but obviously a big system in the Netherlands versus free range. We can often talk about free range being obviously the best welfare, but of course you can get free range flocks that are poorly managed and have poor welfare because they're outside in the cold and, you know, er, parasite ridden, whereas barn, potentially well run.

You know, can have better welfare, can't it, so it's, it's a bit. Simple to say, you know, oh well, free range are obviously better than, than Barn, for example. Yeah, a bit like anything in life.

I mean, nothing's ever black and white. I think, the reality, as you say, is it doesn't necessarily come down to the production system. Each production system has its own pros and cons.

I mean, you mentioned the, the game bird side of things earlier, whether it's a, whether it's a pheasant rearing site or a free range layer site or a, or even a a a conventional, you know, indoor broiler farm, the reality is that Any of these systems have, have advantages, any of these systems have disadvantages. If you've got a good stock person who's running it and managing it, that, that's the key. I, I've been to some, you know, I think the game bird industry has a bit of a, perhaps reputation outside of, you know, for those who are working outside of it, who maybe don't have any exposure to it, I think a lot of people sort of just presume it's a bit like the wild west.

In reality, I've been to some amazingly run estates that are doing loads of conservation work. The welfare's really, you know, really impressive. They've got biodiversity policies and so on and so forth, and you compare that to a, a poorly run.

What you would think perhaps would be a, you know, something that's got all, all the bells and whistles, singing and dancing type set up and, and actually at the end of the day it's about people really, if you've got the right people in there, then that's what matters. And obviously looking now at free range, and we've had bird flu and housing orders, I know there isn't any in place at the moment, but how has that affected things and do housing orders really work? Yeah, so the, the housing orders ones are always a challenge.

They do make a difference. The challenge with them is when to introduce them. If you go too early, you say, say you've introduced it in late September or early October, when traditionally the risk has been a bit lower.

They tend to have a limited time span, so you could introduce it in early October, but then you might be lifting it, say, in, in late January, early February, when the risk period in terms of circulating virus could still be quite high. And then you've got more immunologically naive birds that are then put out into a high risk area. So you can't go too early with it.

And I guess there's a commercial aspect of that as well in terms of the, the 16 week derogation that the, the flocks will get in order to sell the free range eggs as barn eggs, . So, yeah, the, the timing of it's quite challenging. They do make a difference.

They do reduce the, the risk of flu by a factor of 4. But then the research, the ESA of the European Food Safety Authority has done shows that having good biosecurity reduces your risk by a factor of 44. So, they do make a difference, but they're not something to just put the chickens in and say, well, they're safe.

Yeah allow any complacency because if you're then not still doing all your things, you know, barriers, stepovers, foot tips, wheel washes, visitor books, you know, if all of that is going by the wayside because they're inside, then. You're not any safer. How is the, you know, you've obviously been at the front line of bird flu, how, how sort of pathogenic is, is the virus, is that ameliorating over time, it seems to have been a really severe outbreak.

I live at the beach at Crosby. You've seen guillemots here, just, you know, on paths, so they've obviously fallen out of the sky virtually onto the, the paths, you know, quite a distance away from the water. I've seen, gulls and cormorants and so on.

You know, give us a little bit of an insight as to what's happening with bird flu and do we expect that to continue or are things starting to get better? OK, this might be a long answer. I'll try I'll try and summarise 3 years in.

Yeah, not 3 years. So, the, the sort of the last few years we've had 3 consecutive bird flu seasons, records, 3 consecutive records in a row. So the first one of that, you go back to 2020.

We had H5N8 so highly pathogenic avian influenza. Influenza A, subtype H5N8, that gave us about 30 cases in the UK, which at the time we thought was quite a large number. Traditionally, you know, we might have had one or two, if you cast your mind back, I think we had one in, so I live in South Norfolk.

We had one near us in 2016, I believe, down sort of Redgrave Way. You know, there was one case, news helicopters circling, circ you know, circling the farm, all the press was saying everyone was going to die. You know, that's sort of really dramatic response to one case.

So yeah, roll on to 2020, we had 30 cases, barely made the news because COVID and everything was going on at the time, . So we thought, OK, this is quite a lot, we hope next year isn't like this. That year was quite bad for the free range layers, because the, the virus got introduced into, into Lincolnshire, where it's quite a layer heavy population and because a lot of them were free range and it had a bit of a sort of.

Target rich environment, I suppose, for want of a better term. But moving into 2021 and 2022, what we've been dealing with, unfortunately, is an even nastier, version, which is a highly pathogenic flu again, H5N1 this time. Specifically, I believe the, the clade is 2.3, 0.4, 0.4B.

But that's about as close to being a virologist as I'm ever gonna get. But essentially, yeah, it seems to be more pathogenic, seems to be more transmissible. It's obviously caused hundreds, I think we've had somewhere around 350, you know, cases of H5N1 in the UK in, in, in domestic poultry.

How many in places like backyard flocks that perhaps aren't reported, we, we don't know. And of course it's been, quite frankly, catastrophic for a lot of the, the wild sea bird populations as you've referenced just there and. You take into account the amount of islands we have, I, I found out the other day, apparently the UK has something like 6,289 islands, if you count all of the remote Scottish, you know, how many of those have sea bird populations that we're not aware of and not actively monitoring, as effectively as perhaps places like the Farne Islands where there is regular monitoring.

We know for a fact that there's nearly 10,000 dead birds there in the last two years. So, I mean, from an ecological point of view, it's been, I hope not disastrous, but it's been pretty horrendous on that point as well. In terms of where we're going.

Into the next year, so we're, we're, we're now into what would be classed as the next sort of flu season, sort of runs from October to to September. We've got 5 commercial cases since October this year. That's not, obviously that's not good, but at the same time, by this time last year, we were already at like 85.

So it's, it's a lot better than it was. There's some immunity coming into the flocks. So in terms of wild bird immunity, there does seem to be some positive news that that that appears to be playing a role.

And it seems that the migratory birds that are coming over as well seem to have some sort of immunity. So our domestic wild bird population and our migratory wild bird population appear to have been exposed to H5N1. And it's worth mentioning that it's not just been.

But this bad in the UK it's also been record levels in, you know, the United States, Europe, it's reached countries in South America, it's never reached before. So the whole world has been dealing with this panzoootic effectively in the background. So a lot of the migratory birds are also.

Seem to be, have some sort of base level of immunity, you know, there's papers that suggest that there's irritis, you know, changes in the eyes and things that demonstrate there's been, some neurological inflammation in, in survivors. So, combination of wild bird immunity and I think a lot of lessons around. Where biosecurity could biosecurity was already very good in the poultry industry, but the last two years have been a wake up call to areas that we could be even better at.

And I think a lot of people have learned a lot of hard lessons. You know, sadly, we, we, you know, we've perhaps got better in some areas around things like litter storage, for example, that, that's now making a big difference going forward. So I think the poultry industry, the game bird industry is a lot more aware of, The risks, it's aware of the areas that we could further improve on, and I think that combined with.

A gradually reducing level of viral challenge, touch wood, we seem to be, seem to be seeing less of the H5N1. That being said, there now seems to be H5N5 heading across Europe, so. What's this space as relevant, you know, I enjoy going out into the countryside to a local nature reserve, and it seems to have just been so much quieter over the last 12 months.

Just with the amount of, you know, birds that are around, so it's, hopefully we're coming to the end of this, period. No, I, I, I, I certainly hope so, and I mean it's impossible to talk about bird flu without talking about, I mean, the impact on the bird side of things has been horrendous, you know. I think we're at sort of 8.3 million birds that have been culled commercially, you know, as I say, at least 500,000 wild birds have, have died, but in reality, how do we know the real figure?

It's got to be. It's got to be way higher than 500,000. So, I mean, in terms of bird losses, it's been awful, but it's also impossible to talk about the topic without talking about the impact on the people involved as well.

Of course, you know, the, these are people that have, you know, devoted their lifestyle to, to looking after birds, to, to, to working in the countryside, and, you know, to, to have to deal with mass mortality incidents. It's not just mass mortality, it's mass morbidity. You know, these are extremely sick birds that die very quickly and it's very unpleasant for anyone to have to be dealing with, let alone if it's your.

Livelihoods, but also, but also your passion, like there, you're connected to the, the birds and their welfare as well, aren't you? It's, it's probably, you know, as big as foot and mouth in 2001, but obviously less visible because they are inside a lot and, and you know, people won't be. Aware of it, but of course, you know, foot and mouth in 2001 caused a lot of hardship in the farming industry, lots of people, you know, became ill with depression, etc.

Etc. So I, I hope that the government is supporting these, industries, you know, sufficiently to, to protect them and so on. Yeah, I mean, as you say, foot and mouth was before my time as a vet, but obviously very much aware of it and studied it, but.

Yeah, equally horrendous in terms of people what people had to go through, as you say, actually, in terms of numbers, it's probably less, but, but, but there's something very visceral about, you know, big burning funeral piles of cat that people can see in the countryside, isn't there? And as you say, actually maybe that in terms of people's awareness and support for the poultry industry, perhaps actually that's where you know, perhaps a victim of their own success in biosecurity, that a lot of it just has happened behind closed doors, you know, the, these units have just, they've cracked on, they've. They've they've identified the problem, they've resolved the problem, the places get cleaned out, everything's done very professionally, but, but it's also not really in the public eye and, you know, there, there's not sort of probably the same level of awareness or, or kind of support or sympathy perhaps, because people, it's just not on people's consciousnesses perhaps as much.

So yeah, in terms of government support, don't get me wrong, I think the government can be doing a lot more for rural areas in general. I think there's reports that I'm not going to get political, but. You know, there are a lot of reports out at the moment about how rural areas and rural poverty and and rural mental health compared to.

The support that goes into, to urban areas, especially London, there's, there's a massive gulf, and I don't know if that's going to change anytime soon. In the meantime, we have got great institutions locally. I'm really honoured to work for, mental health charity, joined the board of trustees six months ago, that, that works in East Anglia, for anyone in an agricultural business.

And yeah, is that Jana. Yeah, so it stands for you are not alone, but yeah, everyone knows it as Jana for sure and . It's fantastic.

I'm really honoured to have joined it. It's got an amazing reputation around here. We, we, thankfully, I think we're quite well thought of.

And sadly, it's sort of, I don't know, I guess it's a bittersweet thing. We're busier than ever, which is sad that people need us more than ever, but at the same time as that because people are more aware that they can talk to us and, and, and, and the people who weren't utilising the resources now are. So it's always difficult to know whether.

Being a busier is a good thing or not, but, . Yeah, we, we've got a helpline, we've got mental health first aid training, we offer and you know, anti-suicide awareness resources and things like that, so they're really quite active in the, in the area. Yeah, cos it's a big problem obviously within the veterinary industries as we know, but also within farming, I think they're they're very similar industries aren't they, and they can be that isolation for a farmer working on his own, maybe with one other person and.

Troubles start to mount up, you know, you see the death of a large number of your animals and of course that that really can push people down, can't it? Exactly. Well done on that work as well.

That's really important. Yeah, thank you. I think that the reality is that we're all really, especially in terms of farm vets, we're all really in it together, to be honest.

We're all part of an allied industry, whether it's, you know, whether you're working directly in agriculture, whether you're working as a supplier as a vet, we're all being exposed to similar things and we're all trying to achieve the same goal, and I think it's just a case of about being there for each other, really, as you say, vets and farmers we've got very similar. Very similar, statistics, and probably very similar personality types and, and, and I think perhaps we, yeah, we will be working closely together, in a professional setting, and I, and I hope that, in a sort of personal setting, some of the charities that are out there, you know, Jana, as you say, that life, you know, you know, all, all of these institutions will, will be sort of working as part of a network as well in, in a, in a region. So, yeah, it's all just about pulling together really.

Did you know the webinar that Virtual Veterinary Congress is back for 2024. Starting on the 5th of February, we have 10 hours of continuing education with speakers such as Sarah Heath, John Chisy, and Samantha Kyler, and many, many more. We'd love to see you there.

If you'd like to get involved again this year, or if you'd like to join us for the day next time, please click the link in the description below to find out more. We, we talked briefly before we came on about sustainability, it's one of my big passion points, you know, it's very difficult to run a business if you don't have a planet. And and I know you've also similarly to ourselves, been awarded the investors in the environment green mark, which is obviously the highest, they don't do gold, they do bronze, silver, and then green, which I think is very appropriate.

Yeah. Doing some great work there before we chatted, you know, particularly around. Circularity with the the lab, you know, using less single use plastic.

Tell tell us a little bit about that story. Yeah, so that's, that's something, so I joined the practise in 2018, and I'm trying to think when we first started doing it, it's probably about 2019, we, we kicked off. We went straight for silver.

We got that and we thought, well, we're already doing a lot of the things that a green level. Let's see if we can make it. And, and yeah, we did it the, the first time of asking, so we've We, we've gained our green level.

I think it made us not only the first poultry practise, but the 1st 100% farm animal practise to, to get green with RRE. So that was a really big milestone for everyone, . And it's had really good buy-in from everyone in the practise.

I mean, everyone's really, enthusiastic. People are constantly coming up with ideas and saying, why don't we give this a go? Why don't we, you know, why don't we try that?

So we've maintained the green membership. We've got our next audit in 2 months' time, so we've got to get all the paperwork lined up, as digitally as possible, of course. But, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's really good to be part of.

We, we've taken a bit of an approach, so we've, we've got a UCAS accredited lab. We've got an admin team, we've got the vets. We're obviously all using shared resources.

We, we've broken it down into four sections. We've got the vet team kind of action plan, we've got the lab, we've got the admin team, and we've got sort of general resources, you know, electricity, water, things like that. Yeah.

And then within that we try and give some ownership and some scope to each of those teams to, to drive. What they think is best for their area. Because realistically, you know, I, I've had some lab training, but I'm not working in the lab every day.

I, I, I won't know the sort of things that are going to make a sort of real difference. And it's great to give people sort of power over where that process is going, and then hopefully give them the credit and give them the reward where it's due, because at the end of the day, the, the lab team, for example, this year, they've, reduced single-use plastic just in one area of our lab around how . Our, our media plates are stored, which is going to reduce 8000 bits of plastic a month, which that's probably a conservative estimate as well.

So we're talking 96,000 bits of plastic a year that aren't going on a beach or, you know, being incinerated, and, and that's just one thing that they've come up with as a project. There's, there's dozens of others, so, you know, credit where credit is due, the whole team is really just, you know, this is stuff that's going on in the background that isn't necessarily a primary service, the practise is delivering, but. It it's just going on in the background and, and it's amazing to hear when we check in in our quarterly meetings, what people have achieved in the few months since we last spoke.

The, the carbon footprint side of things for us, the big challenges, the amount of driving we do, especially the last couple of years with all the movement licence visits, we're just, yeah, driving in circles, stamping bits of paperwork for, weeks on end. But yeah, we've got two vehicles over to hybrids now. We're reviewing feasibility for electric vehicles, probably a challenge with the, the remote areas we're working with and, and the amount of driving we, we have to do on the vet side of things, but certainly other members of staff and and our clients are, are considering going to EVs, so looking to get a charging point, having a meeting with someone later today about perhaps getting a charging point installed.

So, yeah, I think things are moving, and it's, it's nice to have a framework with IIE that, Allows you to kind of think in a structured way, right, well, you know, we look back over the last year, we've, we've reduced in these areas, we've achieved this, you know, what's our biggest areas to tackle going into next year. So I think the first year or so it's quite easy to tackle the low hanging fruit, you know. But after a year or two, if you want to continue making the sustained drive, you have to sort of, you need a bit of guidance on which areas to focus on.

So it is very helpful to, to have them as a, a structure at least to, to. Look where you need to be going. I think it's interesting as well because he's not totally obsessed with carbon, you know, my, my son was talking to me the other day and saying, you know, everybody talks about carbon, and I kind of agree with him to a degree, you know, we don't talk enough about biodiversity and 30 by 30, obviously an area that you can work in, you know, with your game bird stuff.

And then of course we've got, you know, the plastic pollution and circularity, which is another big area as well, but . I know with your admin team, you're trying to reduce the amount of paper you use as well. Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and between them and our, I must admit, a lot of the credit probably has to go to our IT manager because he's done a lot of our digital systems, so a lot of our old reporting systems that, you know, every report got printed, and that's now being converted effectively into, into sort of paperless reporting.

We've already done most of our lab reporting that way, you know, our our serology and our TVCs, for example. We've still got areas that can still go paperless, but we, we've certainly chopped a lot of the paper out of the system. And I think the last year we, we processed something like.

75,000 blood samples alone or so, so you can see the amount of samples that go through the lab, each of which could generate a bit of paper, . Yeah, it's, it's a lot of trees saved hopefully. Although sadly, with the amount of AI paperwork we've been having to do, it's probably been counterbalanced by all the vets printing out movement licence paperwork that the government needs.

So these things come in ways in the day, that's, that's out of our control. You can only control what you can control, and, and our internal. Paperwork at least is a lot more efficient and a lot more digital.

And and sometimes government are the slowest to sort of take on things, whereas business and individuals will move a lot quicker. So yeah, well done on on all of that work. I think in fairness to the APHA credit where credit's due, they are looking at more digital movement licence signing going forward.

But yes, the first, at least the first AI season was a lot of trees movement licence paperwork. But there we go. So hopefully, yeah, there'll be, there'll be more .

As you say, digital. But of course even digital then has a cost because it depends where your servers are and they are they using green electricity. So as you said before, as you get a little bit older you realise there's no black and white, there's always a lot of grey around, isn't there?

No, no, it, it becomes more and more of a minefield the more you think about it, but you can, as I say, you can only control what you can, yeah, if you can see that you're making a tangible difference where you are, that's something. as you said earlier, when we were chatting before coming on, I mean, it does all add up, you know, if, if just one lab in mid-Norfolk can save 96,000 bits of single-use plastic in one area, you know, if everyone did that, yeah, we'd be having to pick a lot less off the beaches. The key is starting the journey, and once you start the journey you realise sometimes it does get a bit complicated and there are times when you go backwards to go forwards, but it's, it's having that hope that we can do something about it and actually take some positive steps and if everybody does a little bit.

It adds up to a lot, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly, and, and you can't, you also can't take responsibility for society as a whole, you know, you can only do what, what you can do. And, and as you say, things like green electricity going through servers.

I mean, I'm, I, I don't profess to be much of a tech wizard at the best of times, but that is clearly way beyond the scope of the control of, of a business, such as a vet practise, but if, if, if lots of best practises and lots of other businesses are, are very mindful about what they want to do, sustainability, that pressure does go back up the supply chain and as a society we move in the right direction, but at the same time you can't, . It's very easy to to watch the news and get, as you say, kind of climate climate anxiety, climate disaster about it, but . If you can, if you can make a difference in the practise you're working in or the business you're working in, at least that's something tangible that you.

You can sort of look at and hold and say, well, OK, well we did that, and it's so it's trying to get that message across that if everyone does a bit of that, it does add up. Well, thanks for all that you're doing for the environment. I think it's really important we all work together.

The, we, we had a psychiatrist on the Mind Matters initiative a few years ago now, who was talking about solastalgia, which is now the medical condition which basically encompasses climate anxiety. So there's a a new word for you, Henry. That's OK every day.

Exactly, this is, this is the key, isn't it? This is the key with learning. Henry, thanks so much for that.

That's been really, fantastic. Give me an insight into, you know, how the poultry industry is working, you know, the, the terrible times with bird flu, which I've certainly seen, you know, from the countryside perspective, you're obviously working right at the coalface of that, so, you know. I know that's probably been really tough, so, congratulations for all the hard work you're doing in that area and with the environment as well.

And yeah, hopefully we will see you soon at at an event and we can hopefully see how you're coping with the year as young vet of the year. No pressure. We'll try and just keep more of the same, I think.

It seems the last year seems to have gone well, so we'll just try and keep it up. The, the exciting thing for 2024 on my end is we've got our, rotation with the Royal Vet College starting, so looking forward to, to running that, between the practise and the vet and, the vet College. Brilliant.

We've got our first students coming in May. So yeah, that's the, that's the big task for next year. Fantastic, Henry, thank you so much for, I know how busy you are for agreeing to come onto the podcast, telling us a little bit about the work you're doing.

No, thank you for having us, congratulations on the the award and yeah hopefully we'll, we'll bump into each other very soon. Yeah, I'm sure we will. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on.

Thanks very much, Henry, and you too. Thanks everyone for listening, hopefully see you on a webinar or or a podcast soon. Take care, bye bye.