Hi everybody and welcome to another special episode of Vet Chat as we bring to you some special edition podcasts to do with our Siva symposium as part of WCBD 9. Delighted for this episode to be joined by Doctor Marie Christine Kerrie and I have double checked how to pronounce her surname. So I'm, I'm hoping that it's a thumbs up and I haven't got it wrong.

But, but yeah, so Doctor Marie Christine is, is head of the service of dermatology at Toulouse's National Veterinary School, er and develops her research topics in UDA. Which is a research unit devoted to the epidermis differentiation. In addition, she has a strong activity in clinical studies in the field of atopic dermatitis, ectoparasites, and the skin barrier.

So suffice to say, we're chatting with somebody who knows a fair bit when it comes to skin and skin disorders in dogs. Now, specifically in this episode, we're gonna be having a, a, a look at. The changes in in seborrheic disorders in dogs, and of course it's something that we we see regularly in clinic, as you know, we've chatted about in the previous episodes about, you know, the trends in pet ownership and and management of atopic dermatitis, but severe disorders is one of those, Doctor Carrigas, that we, we possibly don't give as much.

Wait to as clinicians in practise sometimes, I think invariably we we maybe just sort of say, you know, here's a shampoo, off you go and let's see if it makes it any better. But, but why is, why, why are these conditions such a concern for a pet owner? Well, I think you're right.

We don't pay enough attention when we prescribe products for, for those with iboa where It's really a concern for, for, for the owners because first of all, they live all the time with the dog and the dog may have a greasy hair coat, a greasy skin, he may, he may have a malodor and and also people around the owner may fear a possible contagious disease or, or, or else, so they are really concerned. And also the fact that they, they need to shampoo regularly and they have sometimes the impression that the more they shampoo, the more greasy the skin is. And they are frustrated at the end.

And, and what can we do as vets at sort of, you know, educating pet owners, because of course so much of what we, what, what our job is, is to not necessarily force treatment upon owner, but to help them to understand why the steps that we're taking and why the treatment protocols that we're engaging are, are gonna be of benefit to, to not just their dog but also to them. Well, I think first of all, we, we need as vets to have a diagnosis, not a diagnosis only of Sibua. It's quite easy to, to make this diagnosis, but, the underlying cause and most of the time, the underlying cause will be either primary problem.

Meaning that, it's for, for life, or it will be, ya will be secondary to an underlying cause such as allergy or, endocrinopathy. And also, most of the time, it's a, a chronic condition. So, first of all, We need to make the diagnosis of the underlying cause and secondly, we really need to explain that it is an ongoing condition and they need to understand that they will need an ongoing treatment.

And our role is to. Explain this and to make things as easy as possible for the owners. Some people will be pleased to shampoo, but some are really struggling in shampooing, for example.

So the ideal is to. Make things comfortable for people. With the idea of having a long term compliance to our treatments.

I think that's interesting, isn't it, because compliance is one of the biggest areas that we look at as as veterinary practise, and it's where probably we fail most as vets, and I think it is important to identify that, you know, failure is fine, you know, failure is something that we, we learn from, and as a profession we are going through. A bit of a an evolution in how we engage with our pet owners because we're aware that actually a compliant pet owner is much more likely to have a successful treatment outcome, which of course then makes our lives as vets a lot easier because we've got a case that's well managed. But what trends have you seen in obviously in your work about sort of, you know, owners, Compliance and and and their ability to compliance.

I know for one, you know, I've got a springer spaniel and as soon as you show shampoo and a hose pipe or a shower to him, he's off to the other end of the garden and and hiding under a bush, so, you know, I can, I have complete empathy with with pet owners. Who, you know, struggle to get good compliance from their patients, especially if you've got, you know, a, a 50 60 kg dog who doesn't want to have a shampoo, there's not an awful lot you can do about it, even at the other end of the spectrum where you've got a 4 kg Chihuahua that really does get grumpy about it. Yeah, and, and at the end, you, you need to spend half an hour or else or more to clean the the bathroom.

So it's, it's not, it's not really nice for, for people having to do that regularly, of course. So each time we can Offer all the options, not necessarily replacing completely shampoos, but, having some other formulations easier to apply, giving the same results, but, less time consuming, technically easier. I think we, we should really offer these options.

And that, that to me is something interesting because of course, you know, one of the, you, you sort of see people's hearts sink a little bit when you're saying to them in a consult, OK, this is the shampoo you're going to use, and you're going to need to leave it on the dog for, 1015 minutes and then you see their hearts sink because they know full well that the dog is going to be doing laps of the house, putting prints over everything, and you know that is something that I don't think there's many clinicians out there that wouldn't have empathy with. But what trends have you seen in the treatments of sort of shampoos, because obviously, you know, everyone is aware that we, you know, if we had an ultra quick, Treatment for for ebu in the same way that I have to say, you know, my wife is a huge fan of a dry shampoo because she can turn around and go right, I don't have to go and wash my hair, I can do this, this, this, and you know, it will do. But of course this isn't a cosmetic thing that we're going at, we're trying to treat disorders, so is it realistic for us to expect that in years to come we'll have a much quicker acting.

A much quicker acting product for treating these various conditions, or is it more that we need to get better at educating owners about how to be compliant? Well, I think nothing is able to replace a shampoo done at the beginning when you want to start the treatment, because you need really to clean the skin to remove all the debris. And if you, if you don't.

Wash. If you don't rinse, this, debriss off, you won't manage to do that. But on the other hand, if an owner can do a shampoo every 3 weeks, for example, instead of twice a week, and in between have a formulation which can prolong.

The, the action of the shampoo which can replace the shampoos in in the meantime, I think it's a very, very clever thing. That's fascinating actually because you never really think about that, do you, about actually just having something that keeps the activity longer, a bit, you know, so to reduce the interval between shampooing, and I know from a, you know, I dare say from an owner perspective, if you say to them, you know, you're gonna have to bath your dog once a month or you're gonna have to bath your dog twice a week, then that's got to be something positive for compliance, surely. So that, that, that sort of leads me on to sort of what products.

Excite you, and, and you know, I mean some people would look at it and go, how on earth can you get excited about a shampoo, but the reality is, these are often the cases, you know, atopic dogs, seborrheic dogs, these are often the dogs that we see in, in the most discomfort and distress, and there's a lot of solace to be taken as a, as a clinician, when you see these patients that are actually well managed. And obviously if we're, if we're better equipped. As clinicians to treat them, then of course that puts us in a position where, you know, we've got happier clients, they've got happier pets, we've got less stress as vets, it's a win-win for everybody.

But what, what have you seen that's sort of, you know, coming out that's going, yeah, actually this looks pretty good. Well, I am, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not a very young vet, fortunately, no, no longer. And I've been educated with shampoos for dogs and the idea of reducing the numbers of shampoos.

Was something I, I wasn't really convinced by. And, when I, I, first worked with the new protocol, of having just one shampoo followed by, mousse applications, every 2 or 3 days instead of shampooing, I was quite, doubtful. I, I, I must say that, I wasn't convinced that it would work.

And, I was really, really impressed by the result. And of course the owners. Loved it.

Because instead of, as I said, shampooing every every 2 or 3 days or even once a week, just doing one shampoo and, and in place, applying the mousse, so having a nice feeling with the, the dog when they, apply the mousse because in fact, it's exactly if they were cuddling the, the dog, and the dog really appreciates the treatment. So yes, I think this is a, a, a, a new way of treating iboa and other things, this, this is specifically for cyboic dogs, but the, the, this principle is really impressive. Yeah, and I think that that is something that is, it's intriguing to see how sort of little subtle changes in in these processes actually make a massive difference in terms of the management of the cases, and of course you're looking into this topic in in greater depth in your chat for the symposium.

What, what is it that you want people to take away as a message from your talk? Well, first of all, it is clearly that we shouldn't as vets neglect, neglect the, the, the silic dogs. They are important in our caseload and people are really concerned by the Siberia and the malaudor and the greasy skin.

So as vets, we should be concerned because people are concerned. That's the first thing. The second thing, we should really look with new eyes, the, the new protocols of combining shampoo and mousse applications, because it will change life for the owners and as you said, for vets.

And I will add other things. Shampooing, with a normal shampoo is one thing, but when we, when the ingredients are sophisticated and they have, proper characteristics, and specifically for cybia anti-cyboic properties, of course, this explains why the results will be good. And, in my experience, it's, it's very satisfactory.

Well, Doctor Carrigas, it's great to chat. I know that I, for one, am looking forward to being able to treat my separate patients a bit better. And, and I think it is, it's, you know, with all of these talks, we're not looking at life changing, career changing insights, but it's those little bits of things that we can do slightly.

Differently to improve the experience for, for pet owners, for pets, and as a result of that, you know, we've got this happy circle of vet, pet owner, and pet, and I'm, I'm really looking forward to getting some more insights to that. So thank you so much for joining us, and we'll look forward to your talk at the CEA symposium. Thank you too.