Hi everybody and welcome to another special edition of Vet Chat for WCVD 9 which is scarily only a week away from us at this moment in time, and I'm delighted to be joined for this episode sponsored by Hills by Doctor Stuart Morgan. Who is a vet who has the enviable state for most of us to be living in Southern California, which is, is sort of that that area where we all look at it and go right, OK, so presumably all of the vets have, all of the, the pets have pearly white smiles. And are very well maintained and looked after, and many are probably carried around in handbags, but although that could be the media shaping our opinion of the area.

And so Doctor Morgan has had a very varied career, having got his degree from Cornell, he's got a PhD in genetics, a resident. And comparative nutrition, he has the cool honour, I think, of having worked on an island in Hawaii as the only vet for 4 years, which I think if you're gonna pick a part of the world to be the only vet on the island. Pretty high up there, like, my aspiration is one day to get to the Kona Ironman World Championships, but to live and work there for 4 years, I think that that's a pretty enviable state.

So Doctor Morgan, you've joined me today and we're having a chat about diversity and inclusion in the veterinary profession, and of course there's the veterinary profession in and of itself is One that's sort of very much stood on a pedestal by members of society, and you know, in the UK we're in 97% white profession, 24% of us have been privately educated, so, you know, there's almost this elitist aura to it as a profession in the UK, which is of course massively concerning. And we look as the profession, you know, moves further into the 21st century and of course has been, you know, hit quite severely by COVID-19 and and members of the profession globally are massively stressed, overworked, pet ownership has increased, vet numbers have have plateaued or even decreased in areas, and, and some veterinary clinics have even closed down. So, you know.

Massively important to us at this stage is that we look at the state of the profession now and the state of the profession in in years ahead of us and, you know, what can we do to make it more attractive to people now. One of the titles, or one of the words in the title to this is, you know, diversity. And I just wondered that, you know, it's, it's almost a very, very ambiguous term where everybody can put their own definition on it, but, but what is diversity to you?

So, yeah, so diversity means a lot of different things to different people, so you're absolutely right. So I'd say that diversity, when we're talking about groups of people in a community in a society, is going to mean that you have a group of people. That are all united to share a common goal in spite of possible differences in gender, and sexual orientation, ethnicity, social class, or caste depending on the society you're a member of, differences in dialects, so people may speak differently than another group of people.

People may have religious differences. And even differences politically and all those things are gonna be shaped upon that person's background, how that person grew up, that person's experiences, that person's education. So.

To me, diversity means also a diversity of interest, the ordinary profession. I believe there's been a shift in some ways from veterinarians being the James Harriet types of veterinarian, where people were doing mixed practise. People were doing a lot of large animal medicine, and I think the veterinary profession itself started off primarily being large animal production animals, and today, the vast majority of veterinarians are small animal veterinarians.

As far as, you know, as, as, as I understand, at least in the UK and I believe in in the, in the US as well. So diversity means a diversity of interest, and all of those things. The experiences one has growing up, the experiences one has going through life, the experiences one has talking and meeting with different people, I think all of those things lead to Diversity.

So you can have people that have the same background, but those experiences that they've had. Through their adult life, through their childhood, all those things shape and make people and are things that are components of leading to diversity. It it's fascinating, isn't it, cos you mentioned the word diversity and instantly.

Everybody's mind goes to racial diversity. There's this inherent sort of draw to, OK, you're talking about diversity, you must mean black, Asian, white, this is what you're talking about, but actually when we look at it in, in the minutiae, you know, it's diversity of the social class that people come from, diversity of their parenting background. And, and of course many of of those aspects get us onto the topic of of inclusion.

And inclusion for our profession, you know, as I said earlier, we have a 24% privately educated profession in the UK, which is a huge representation, you know, the, the proportion of, of the UK kid base growing up that's privately educated is tiny by comparison, and it, it's, to me it's interesting, but you know, when you, when you look at inclusion, what, what does that mean to you? So You're absolutely right. And just one of the things I mentioned before is socio and economic class peoples, in some, some cultures cast is a very important thing as well.

So inclusion means. To me, if you were just to give a blank definition, means allowing people of different communities, different backgrounds, different statuses, different classes to Be a part of a profession if we're speaking of veterinary medicine, to be a part of society and actually have the ability to move in different circles within society. So in the UK I know you have, you know, royals and you have, you know, you know, a constitutional monarchy.

I, as an American, would probably never be included in in the in in in the royal family, and I don't expect to be, but at the same time, that's part and parcel of what inclusivity means, and I think inclusivity is very important. Because if people don't have opportunities or if people are considered not able to to fit in. To a certain community, then they're never gonna be get support that they need.

They're never going to get the notice that. They might want to have to be able to do the things that they want to do if they don't see people kind of similar to them doing certain things that might be less likely to feel that they'd actually fit in. And I think for everybody, even though we're all out of high school, we're all out of, you know, middle school, we're not teenagers anymore, we still want to feel included.

We know like when we're teenagers, preteens, there are some groups that maybe we wanted to be friends with. There's some groups that, you know, that, that might say, oh we don't, you know, we're gonna hang out with this person like that, oh, you're not cool enough. And I think Even as adults.

They're still the same people. And that's one thing I've, I, I, I've realised, you know, just as I've gone through life is The same people have, people can change, but people still have the same desires and the same. Once they wanna feel like they're someone who can have an opportunity.

They wanna be able to not be someone who is Left out because of Experiences that they may have no control over. So I think opportunities are something that leads to Inclusivity, and as I mentioned before, I think inclusivity is The ability of people from Different statuses, different backgrounds, to still be. Welcomed in different circles, social, socioeconomic, for example.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we all as vets have that, that moment, or at least I'd like to think that we, we all have that moment where, you know, as a kid growing up, we go, right, I want to be a vet. Like mine was watching, I think it was a programme called like Vets in practise, and there were two people up to their shoulders doing a twisted stomach in a cow, and I'm sat there going, yeah, that's what I wanna do.

And you sort of see your siblings look at you, you go, what the hell is wrong with you? But did you, did you ever have that defining moment as a as a kid growing up? Oh, I certainly did.

And I think if you talk to any veterinarian or veterinary student, they'll tell you the same thing. So, My first pet, my very first pet was a guinea pig, and I named him Wilbur, like the pig. And He lived to be about 5 years old.

Maybe a little bit older, I don't remember exactly like off the top of my head right now, but Wilbur got very, very sick when he was, you know, a few weeks before he, he died. And that was something that really, really Affected me, especially because I was around 1011 years old at the time. Hm.

My parents took him to, you know, took us to the veterinarian to see what was, what was wrong with them. And one of the things that I still remember. To this day is standing in that veterinary clinic at the table and that veterinarian that was helping my pet.

It was so, so professional. They were caring, they talked to my parents, they talked to me, let me know what was going on. Gave me a prognosis, and they were honest, and that was something that I really appreciated and I really respected.

And I remember, and I still remember, one of the things I always told myself was What I wanna do is I want to be someone who is As caring, someone as honest and able to, you know, to even talk to like, you know, a young kid like I was at the time. And The other thing that I, that I thought was I wanted to be someone who, if I, I'd be able to take care of any of my pets, and then I'd also be able to take care of other people's pets in the same dignified, compassionate manner as that veterinarian did. And that is something that is, and I actually still remember to this day, standing at that exam table with my, with my pet right there.

I still remember the exact position he was, and I remember he came up and started nuzzling me at, you know, at, at the time as well. And That's probably one of my earliest, well probably not my earliest memories so I was about 10 or 11, but it's probably one of those memories that I burned into my mind to this day. And that was my first one on one experience with a veterinarian ever, and I still remember it, you know, to this day.

And I think that's it isn't it, we really do have we probably sometimes. Take for granted the fact that actually we, we have such a an influential. Part in so many people's early memories as vets that, you know, we probably don't even recognise at the time, but yet you speak to these people 2030, 40, 50 years later and, and invariably they'll come back to actually, do you know what, this vet was brilliant with me back then and back then, and I always find it.

Oh, the one thing that people always remember, you could have looked after their animal brilliantly for 12 years, but they always remember how you put their animal to sleep and how you, you know, that experience goes for them. But obviously, you know, you, you go through that phase and you, you're 1011 year old and you go, right, OK, yeah, I really want to be a vet. But did you have any.

Barriers to entry to vet school, you know, was it difficult for you to get in? Were there, once you were in vet school, what, you know, were there any challenges in it, have you faced any challenges since, you know, graduation? You know, how, how have you found that sort of evolution from, you know, a 1011 year old boy deciding you want to be a vet to, you know, now where you're at the stage where you, you know, you, you've got PhDs, you've got residencies, you've got your veterinary degree, you know, how's that, how's that journey gone for you?

So it hasn't been a completely linear path. People in almost every profession would say the same thing. I know there's some veterinary students and some and some veterinarians who have had a pretty linear path.

I mean, that's that's definitely true. It wasn't for me, and Part of us, when I was in college, I Although I wanted to be a veterinarian, I fell in love with research. So I went to graduate school, I got my, you know, worked my PhD in genetics and while I was doing my PhD.

My PhD advisor know, you know, was like, you need us to stay out of the lab, you need to do something different sometimes. So she got me, so why don't you volunteer at an animal hospital, you know, just to do something a little bit different cause you love animals so much. So I volunteered at an animal hospital, local animal hospital, and I absolutely loved it.

The veterinarians there, I just came back to what I always wanted to do. The veterinarians there were supportive. They Asked me thought provoking questions.

I went back and I looked and I answered those questions, and then I said, you know what? I've always loved animals, even though I've, you know, considering doing a career in research, you know, kind of switched away from my original career goals. I ended up applying to veterinary school.

The first time I applied, I didn't get in. The second time I applied, I got into all of my first choices, so that was great. And in veterinary school, I don't think anybody would ever say veterinary school is easy because it's not, and everyone knows that.

So got through veterinary school with, you know, a lot of tears and grit and and and stress, and then following that, I practise in different parts of the country. I ended up in Hawaii because I said, you know what, I've always, you know, I love the Pacific. I love tropical areas and also this was an opportunity where I could practise medicine to an underserved community.

So I was the first full-time veterinarian on that particular island in Hawaii, Molokai. And I practised there in a very rural community. There's a, you know, a lot of poverty in the community.

I did large animal and small animal practise and It was different. Different culturally, the people on this island, most of them had never, well I said they'd never had a full-time veterinarian before. Some of them came from other places, so had had veterinarians where they previously lived, but for the most part.

All the veterinarians on the island flew in. Through inter island air stayed for a few days left and Culturally, the way a lot of people view their pets was a lot different from what most people in the UK or most people in most parts of the United States, some of them view their pets more as utilitarian, like the dogs and cats as more utilitarian. They use them for hunting, which is absolutely, absolutely fine for what they're using them for, but at the same time, for me it was a different way.

Of seeing how people Do things Especially if you're in a different place, you in your, you know, new to community. You don't want to be judgmental. You can't be judgmental, about people.

You can help them, you can help their pets and you have to realise what their goals are, and that was something that to me was. I got there, the first thing I did when I moved to Hawaii, I would go to work every day, just like a lot of veterinarians do. I would wear a collar and a tie.

And then people would start looking at me and I realised that people were like, a tie because in Hawaii, what you do when you're in practise, when you're dealing with clients, when you're oftentimes when people are going to like a job interview, they don't go there wearing a collar and a tie in a in a suit and jacket. You go wearing a nice Hawaiian shirt. So I started realising that someone in this picture is not like the others.

Started wearing Hawaiian shirts every day, and I had to be someone who adapted to that community. And I think like throughout my life I've had to adapt to different situations culturally and I'm just gonna jump back because even so I grew up in In Baltimore, Maryland, in a city. Predominantly African American area.

Then I went to college at a very, very small private college in Pennsylvania. Then I went to graduate school and veterinary school. I've circulated in completely different communities, people with completely different socioeconomic statuses, but I'd have to say that being in Molokai, that was a completely different experience than I've had before.

A lot of people on the island speak native Hawaiian at home, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot different. And people survived by hunting and fishing, subsistence. So it's a lot different from things I was, I was used to, but I think all those experiences I had growing up, just being able to move between different communities, different, people, different ethnicities, people, different cultural backgrounds.

I think all of those things are things that Helped me to grow as a person, to grow as a veterinarian, to help. Taught me to communicate with people in different ways. I had to understand Pidgeon Hawaiian a lot of the times people would say like dog had a puncture or a hole, they'd say, you know, that's it's called a puka.

And I was like, what's a puka, you know, or, you know, an animal has like weird discharge coming from its eyes, what we would say mucopurulent, it was that kind of something they say Maccapeia. So a lot of differences I had to learn different you know, like. Different terms, different language, you know, different ways of speaking, and I think that those are all things that were helpful to me, and those are kind of like difficult things that that that that I had to learn, but they're also things that helped me grow.

And then other things that kind of helped shape my career. While I was there, I, I ended up when I was in veterinary school, I worked with Joe Wakslo who is a board of nutritionist, professor at Cornell, and I absolutely love nutrition. I worked with him for 3 years, and Although he told me he thought I could only be out in regular practise maybe 3 years, I stayed out longer, and I came back and I did my residency in clinical nutrition with comparative clinical nutrition with Megan Shepherd at Virginia Maryland College Binary Medicine.

So she was my residency advisor. And so, you know, graduate school, veterinary school, practise, you know, and, you know, in a, in an island in the Middle Pacific and then after that, Going to, you know, back from there to the east coast to Virginia, during my residency. And following my residency, worked for one year at a small practise, and then following that last couple of years as a faculty member at a veterinary college.

So, so a lot of different experiences, a lot of different, my career path hasn't been really linear, but I think that. It's given me some experiences and I think those experiences were part of a part of my education. I still think I'm, I think all of us are continuing to grow and continuing to to mature.

And I think that's it, isn't it, you know, you're, you're quite rare, I suppose, in our profession in that, you know, you, you have got these insights into multiple different levels of society in different areas and sort of, you know, the complexities of the human animal bond in different cultural settings as well. And of course, you know, there's a real challenge for us as as vets in the modern era because, you know. There's, there's a mismatch between our experiences in life and those of our clients and, and the expectations of our clients to be able to, to have delivered what we can do for them.

So that, that obviously puts a lot of pressure on the modern day vet. But, but what, what do you, what to you in modern society makes a good vet? I think one person needs to be competent.

That's, of course, the first thing and the main thing. I also think that person is absolutely essential that you need to work and be able to speak with the client. Find out, did you Address that client's concerns.

And I think Communication is probably The most important thing that a veterinarian or skill that a veterinarian has to have and communication is gonna not only involve verbal communication, it's also gonna involve nonverbal communication. Communication means listening to what the client is saying. It means at the very end.

Asking that client, did you address the main concern, which is one of the things I always have learned to do, because you can start finding all these other things wrong with the animal. But then the client brought that animal to you or called you to go there to check their animal out for whatever reason. And I think oftentimes veterinarians don't take the time to stop and ask, did I address your main, your primary concern?

Yeah. Which is something I always do because I was like, so you, your main concern was this, did I address that concern? So, Not only do you have to know what you're, you're doing, but you also have to be able to communicate to your client why you wanna do what you wanna do.

You want to be able to communicate with them. Did you address what They wanted you to address. So I think that's probably the most important skill.

That any veterinarians is, is gonna have. And I think pretty much every veterinarian is gonna agree with that because you can be the most skilled practitioner, but if you're not addressing what that client wants you to address, and you're not letting them know or explaining to them how you're, why you're doing what you're doing. Then they're gonna be like, yeah, the vendarian told me to do this and, you know, and I honestly think that there's some clients, of course, that just want you to.

Tell them what to do. Yeah. Most clients do appreciate a little bit of time.

Explaining why you're doing what you're doing. And I also think they're more likely to be compliant if they Feel that there's, you're giving them a good reason to do. What you're asking them.

So I think that's probably the most important thing for any. Yeah. And, and, and when you look at, you know, the big picture of, of the state of the veterinary profession in, in current times, you know, obviously you're, you're an African American vet, and it's a profession that, broadly speaking, especially in the sort of Western world, people have a mental image of a vet as.

A blonde haired chap with, you know, glasses, a long lab coat and a checked shirt, I dare say. And more people are are are are thinking not necessarily a chap, that's very true actually, in, in, in, well certainly in the UK we're now 80% female as a profession, but, and, and again that's something where, you know, we look at this inclusion element of stuff, in that many of the people you still speak to, and I've certainly been. On the receiving end of this, where I've been working with colleagues and they said, oh, I want to see the guy vet.

And I turned round and go, whoa, she's a hell of a lot better a vet than I am, you really want to see her over me. But whether it is, you know, gender, whether it's sexuality, whether it's colour. Have you ever?

One firsthand experience sort of discrimination in the workplace, and to sort of, you know, what have you done to, to overcome that, or to raise that issue or or you know, have you felt able to? Yeah, so I have never experienced it from co-workers. But, of course, clients and you can kind of tell when a client comes.

You know, especially if you're the new veterinarian in someplace, they're often like, oh, hi, you know, when, when, when they walk in, I've had clients say something like, I don't know how my dog or my cat's gonna interact with you because they've never been around, you know, you know, like a black person before. I've actually had clients say that before, and their pets are fine. But I think that speaks a little bit more about the client than it does.

About the animal, which is kind of like a. But when I've had those experiences, I I just kind of just go with the flow. I kind of, I show them that I'm a veterinarian.

I show them that I know what I'm talking about. I show them that I am able to address their concerns. And I have never had anybody following that, the clients often want to see me again.

So, so, so, so, so, so I think, and I think all the the different experiences I've had, you know, just dealing with different types of people have helped me to be a little bit more fluid in the different. Places I've been, so I think that has been an incredible amount of help. When I've, so I've, I've, I've had those experiences, but I've never had anybody do anything or say anything that is blatantly out there, but it's more subtle things.

Like I just mentioned, I don't know if my pet is actually, you know, how they're gonna react to you as a, you know, as, as, as, as, as, as a black man. Yeah, and, and, but you're absolutely right. I do think, and I, well I know that society has A mental image of who a veterinarian.

It is gonna be what a veterinarian's gonna look like. And That can also be a barrier to some clients as well, because I have a client that, say, lives in a rural area of Hawaii that uses their dogs for Pig hunting, and they think the veterinarian is gonna be someone from Privately educated, as you know, as you just meant. The white lab coat and everything.

They're gonna be less likely to talk to someone. That they don't think will be able to Communicate with them, to be able to empathise with them. Based upon Their experiences and, and I think as we mentioned before, a lot of people who are veterinarians who've had very, very linear careers, they go and say I'm just gonna do small animal, they've come from a specific cultural background.

And I've noticed that's a common thing. In the US as well, and they go through their life, they've only experienced certain things, they know what they wanna do, they're gonna do this and only this. Those That is something that people, it can be a barrier to some people.

For some people, it can be a great thing cause they know I'm gonna go to the veterinarian. This is what I'm gonna get. This is who I'm.

You go to McDonald's, you know what you're gonna, you know, you, you, you, you're gonna get this, you know what you're gonna expect. So I think that's a good thing for some people, but for other people. Who may not like McDonald's, but may like.

Japanese or sushi. Using food metaphors cause I just popped in my mind right now. That may not be either what, it's not, it may not be what they want and what they get.

It may, it may not be what they want and they, and they may be, and it may, may turn them off because they want sushi and they get McDonald's. So. And I think that's one of the things, isn't it, like, you know, the important thing for me and, and, and your story about Hawaii very much resonates because actually.

You know, we're, we're servicing clients, whether we like it or not, as, as vets, we serve a client and the client is the person that pays our wages, they pay for our bills, they pay for the other staff, they pay for the electricity, and so on and so forth. So actually our job is to build a rapport with that client, and I think, you know, that's where, you know, I'm sure plenty would hold me up for saying this, but actually our job is to. To invest in those relationships and to build those relationships and say look, you know, actually, I'm gonna make a step to build trust with you because I need you to trust me, because if you trust me, My job is a hell of a lot easier because you trust me, you tell me everything.

And that's fine, whereas if you don't trust me and you're a little bit I'm not sure about this guy or this girl or, you know, this, this guy who looks like he's about 12 who's just come out of vet school, which all of a sudden, like, I mean I'm, I'm getting new graduates coming to see stuff with me that it's just sort of like, how old are you? It's like, and more importantly, if I think you're how old that, how old am I? But but yeah, and I think it's so important, isn't it, that we, you know.

Are able to think outside of our own bubble and able to empathise with our clients and I think, you know, inclusion, whilst we look at our inclusion in the profession and how we can make the profession more inclusive, we also then have to look at how we can include our clients and include our patients in that journey, because that makes it easier for everybody. But when you look at, you know, your sort of your journey. What have What have employers done well and poorly to include you in different aspects of your career?

I think the most important thing is support. Yeah, support one. The way you want to.

Practise medicine to, and this is, I think for any career support. Your career goals, support your Continuing education. Support you as someone who can bring a little bit different things.

To that practise. Everyone has specific skills, certain skills. Everyone has the ability to do different things.

People are better at other things than others. In the private practises I've I've been in, I think the most important thing is that support having and also having a community. Of people around you.

That are friendly, that are open, that are. Helpful and willing to to work with you. So the private practise I love the most and I am still really, really, really great friends with everyone there and we, you know, we text all the time back and forth.

That practise, it felt like a family. Everyone supported one another. Everyone helped.

One another in that practise. Like I think in every practise I've been I've pretty much been The only African American person in those practises, but in those practises I felt valued. I felt The staff, the veterinary nurses, the veterinary technicians, they were like a family were able to to help each other, and it kind of was like a like a synergy.

All of us did things together, we all supported one another, do things outside of work together, like go to the movies together, that kind of stuff, and I absolutely love that because it it it shows that we all view each other as as individuals, even outside of work, at work, work is work, but outside of work, you know, we're we're still able to to to talk and And do things and and help one another and trust one another. They still ask me a lot of nutrition questions all the time. I think I got last week from the practise owner, you know, cause they're they're always and I have and I and they're like, I hope I'm not bothering you and I'm like, no, I mean so but it's .

Support and a family type environment, I think those are the, the big things I think that everybody wants from Veterinarians, everyone else wants from in a working environment, people that they can trust, people that support one another, people that are collegial to one another, and people you can, people you can trust. So so I think that's not. I remember having a real mental block with bitch Bay when I swapped.

I was an equine vet for 5 years and then swapped to small animal practise. And my boss made me do one a day for 6 months. And the first one, he was kind of like, right, OK, this is what you do, I'm gonna do this one, you're gonna watch me, then you're gonna hold that, you're gonna feel this.

Then the next one, he said, right, you're gonna do that side, I'll do this side. Then the next one was, right, you're doing both sides. And then he got further and further away, until one day he was in his office.

And I'm spending a dog to Bordeaux, and you said and you go, oh, I, I can do this. And it is, it's that, you know, I'll never forget that, and I will use that story time and time again, and I would like to think that that example is what I use when I, you know, I'm, I'm a dental nerd. I absolutely love it.

So when I'm doing dental cases and I'm teaching younger vets, it's kind of like, you know, this is how you do a proper scale and polish, and this, and you see them looking at me going, going, how dull is your life that you are enjoying this? But. But you know, it's, it's great, you know, we all have tiny, tiny areas of true expertise.

Like, you know, we genuinely do, nobody is a master of everything. And if we can help someone, whether that is including them in their career development, whether that is showing them how to do something, whether that is actually sitting down, shutting up and letting them get on with something, but, but being there in the background. Yeah, what you're saying mentorship, that is huge.

And that's also something that I think that's part of the support in those practises and also even in the university right now in a completely different setting. I think having people there to help mentor you and to help guide you, realising this is something you're interested in, realising this is something you wanna improve on, having someone there. That actually will take the time to help you and help you grow as a person, help you grow as a veterinarian, help you to become more independent.

I think that is absolutely essential, and I think that is definitely part of the support. If they just let, if you go to a practise and that veterinarian just says sink or swim. Yeah.

Oftentimes people don't stay there too long. And, and, and I, I think, and I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but in the US, I think. I don't want to give a number because I'm supposed to be making something up, but a large number, yeah, cause I could make something up, but I'm not, but a large, a large percentage of veterinarians.

Leave the practise that they originally start at within. 1 or 2 years, and that's so it's probably so it is the same in the UK. So And I don't know everyone's reasons for doing that.

It could be that people need to move because of family, people need to move because of different reasons. One of the reasons I'm aware of for people that I know is A practise wasn't giving them the support or what they needed for themselves and it could be that there Differences in communication styles, for different things. It could be that there's differences in The way people want to practise medicine.

Yeah. I really think That having someone, even if you're completely different, you have completely different goals, career goals, you have completely different things you want to specialise in or work on, be it dentistry, be it someone who absolutely is a, you know, complete nerd on dermatology, for example, or nutrition, for example. I think having someone there that supports that, if they're able to.

Or they have some type of expertise in that they're able to help guide you to becoming better at something, even if they're not good at it themselves, getting you in contact with someone who might be able to help, like. Ortho procedures, or, you know, orthopaedic, I'm not good at all, but I've had people stand next to me. They let me do that procedure.

They said, you know, and if they need to step in to help me, they would do that. And some of those procedures. So.

Pretty fair, that that that I could do a possible job at, not as good as them, of course, but that was something when I graduated that I didn't really have much experience at, you know, when you graduate veterinary school, it's wise it's practise, you know, you do things over and over again. But those were things that kind of made me feel a little bit more competent in my skills as a veterinarian. And I think that that that that helps in your competency helps in your feeling of being secure in the profession.

Not just being like, Like a one trick pony, like a veterinarian who only knows how to do one thing and only that thing. I think most veterinarians, they go into the profession because they wanna help and do a lot of different things. Treat animals that have a lot of different conditions, and not just.

Do one thing day after day after day after day. Yeah. Some people are happy with that.

I think most veterinarians aren't, and they want to grow. Yeah. And, and, and we're living in times that are hugely polarising, you know, in terms of.

Pre-intra and post COVID world, of course, you know, you have the extent of polarisation in the states in a, in an electoral year, which seems to go to a full extreme. And you know, all of the, the microcosms of society are almost becoming small factions now where people are, are exposed to people that are only really like them, be that physically, be that mentally, be that intellectually. And, and it, it, for me, it's a, it's a, you know, as vets we have the rare privilege and also a real pain in the neck that that our client base is from every microcosm of society.

And we have to adapt our, our mentality and our approach from one consult to the next to the next, and from one client to the next, and, and you know, that presents us with with challenges, but what, what would you like to see? As a profession, as we look to conclude this chat, sort of, you know, what does the future of, of inclusion and diversity from within the profession look like, what would you hope to see in the future? So, I definitely think that We need to help recruit veterinarians from Areas of society that typically do not, we don't get veterinarians recruited from.

And I think a large part of that is exposure. Outreach. If someone, say from my, you know, the island in Hawaii, that, you know, where I lived, has never seen a veterinarian.

Before they've never had a veterinarian that was there, a veterinarian that was able to talk to them as a kid to help their pet as a kid. They're not gonna have that experience that I had when I was like 11 years old with my guinea pig. That those forms of experiences, those experiences actually seeing someone in person, talking to them.

Those are the things that help get people into the profession. And I think it's essential that we get people from different parts of society because as I mentioned before, you know, years ago, veterinarians were oftentimes a jack of all trades doing large animals, small animal, and now the profession seems to be moving more and more to. Small and people are always talking about how there's a need for veterinarians that are able to work with large animals, be they horses, cows, goats, production animals, for example.

And I think part of the reason why is that People don't have that exposure. They don't have that, that, that mentorship that got one of the things we talked about before. They don't have someone to talk to and say, what do I need?

1, to get into veterinary school, 2, what do I need to do to achieve my career goals, my life goals in a profession with a lot of people that may not. Look like me, will I be able to get the support, which I mentioned before is, is, is a huge thing. We'll be able to get that support, that mentorship.

When I get out and practise, how comfortable will I feel, say, being an African American man, in the middle of a island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you know. How comfortable will I feel as an African American man or or or or say someone who is a different sexual orientation. Hm.

A very rural area, will I have that support. Will I have that support if I'm someone who might have a different religion than than other people if I'm living in a in in a different area. So I think A big thing is people's life experiences and those life experiences also include mentorship act also include.

Exposure And I think one of the things the profession's doing is it's assuming. Because so many people want to be a veterinarian. That they don't need that more people want to be a veterinarian than actually there there's spots for veterinary schools.

Yeah, so people kind of believe that this is a self-fulfilling, you know, we don't need to recruit people because we already have more applicants than we have room for. So what's the point of doing outreach, and, and, and, and, and so, but I think that's shortsighted. Because It's gonna lead to more and more communities that have a lack of veterinarians, and that lack of veterinarians in those communities, it's gonna be like a cycle because People in those communities aren't gonna see veterinarians.

They're not gonna be exposed or have that mentorship from a veterinarian. So just like people say they're food islands. I don't know if it's the same thing in in the UK.

So they call them food islands because these, these are areas that are often. Pretty poor. They don't have grocery stores, you know, place, you know, places for people to shop in, so people In some areas in the US at least.

I don't know if it's in the UK because they don't have grocery stores in the area, they tend to Shop at small stores that have a lot of junk food, so they call them food islands. People in those food islands don't have that exposure. They have to leave their community to Get things that they need to be healthy.

So people in those communities may need to leave their community, go to a completely different place with this completely different culture to take get caretaking of their pets, and those the people that are taking care of their pets may not understand. The community from which that person is coming from. Yeah.

I think it's kind of one the profession is. Reliant upon just having a whole lot of people always want to be veterinarians. Assuming that there's never gonna be a lack of people who want to be veterinarians, which is probably the case, but also assuming that in taking All of these people that they're gonna meet all of societies.

Needs, and I very shortsighted because as I said, fewer people doing stuff of large animal here in rural communities, veterinarians are moving more and more to urban areas working with small animals, more affluent areas because of course people want to work where they're gonna make money and and and and have a good living. But at the same time, there's a whole section, probably the UK, a whole section of the United States and Canada, I'm only talking about places I actually know and and people from those areas. So whole sections of places that do not have veterinarians, and whole sections and whole communities and and and and.

That I never had that exposure. I think that's something that it's gonna get unless people make a change and actually work for more recruitment, it's gonna become more and more polarised to affluent communities. Urban areas, small animals.

And that's it, and I think you know, society, as a profession we are certainly more diverse than we were. But as society becomes more diverse, we need to move with society, you know, it's that sort of, I always use the analogy of trying to keep up with technology, and that, you know, as soon as you've bought an iPhone it's out of date, which means you need to be thinking about the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and and as a profession, we cannot afford. To sit on our laurels and to go right, OK, this is us, we've, you know, we've, it's OK, guys, you know, we've got 5 more gay vets, we've got 5 more black vets, it's OK, we're, you know, we're fine, we're sorted here, we've moved forwards.

Is that constant evolution, that constant necessity. For us to be reflective as our client base as well, and I think, you know, that to me, you've touched on it there, you know, the, the requirement to truly know and understand your client sometimes requires somebody to have been from that genre, that, that niche, that subsection of society where we go, actually, do you know what, this guy gets it, this girl gets it because. They know what it's like to be from there, you know, this is a person who knows what it's like to not be able to afford pet care.

This is a person who knows what it's like to not have a vet on the corner of the street. And you know, as society moves forwards, I think it is so important that that we move with it. So for me, it's a really exciting time because to move forward, you have to identify a problem.

And you know, we've identified that as a profession we have problems. But if you could just sum up in, in one sentence what you are most pleased with. How the how the profession's moved forwards from when you first got involved to now, and what your biggest aspiration would be moving forwards, I think that would be a great place for us to look at winding up.

Yeah, and actually that there's something that I've always thought about myself. Something that I'm really, really pleased about with the profession is Probably there is more awareness of the needs of different communities, the needs of of incipient veterinarians who are who are starting off out. When I was in veterinary school.

There wasn't a whole lot of focus on Dealing with people from different areas, different communities, and now I know that most veterinary schools there's more of an emphasis on, and also the school where I am right now on Communication. So now their courses in communication, talking with people from different areas, finding out if you're addressing different concerns, and I think that is something that more and more veterinary schools are, are focusing on. I think also in the North American veterinary licencing exam, there's also components of communication as well.

That, that, that's, that are part of licencing. So it's not necessarily just this is how you deal with a cow with A left displaced a mason. This is how you, you do a dog spay.

There's more and more of an emphasis on some of the non Clinical aspects, although I, I, I consider everything clinical in some ways. The, the non Hands-on This procedural type of things that that that we deal with, and I think that's something that is With the, the awareness of all the things that we've just talked about. I do think that's something that the profession is working.

Moron, and I think going forward. Especially with a lot of the unrest that has, that has happened in the in the time of COVID. That has provided a push for some of these changes that we want to To have happened even, you know, just discussion within the profession about just the type, type of things that we're doing right now.

So I think that's something that is actually moving the profession in, in, in a good way and it's, and it's, and it's a good thing that we're actually spending more time on. Talking about these issues that we're not. Talked about before and also working with people who are going to be veterinarians.

Helping them, putting more emphasis on communication skills, putting more of an emphasis on. Dealing with people that may have different backgrounds from you. So I think that's you can always talk about medical advances and, and, and that kind of stuff and those and those are always occurring, those have always occurred, but I think it's more the big things, the important things as a profession that are gonna really help the profession move forward are gonna be improved communication, improved comprehension that There are people who are gonna be different that people, veterinarians seem to be culturally fluent, veterinarians need to be able to address client concerns.

Find out if they've addressed the client concern rather than assuming that something is. A client concern when the client for something completely different, so just, you know. So I hope I answered that question.

I think, you know, the, the key thing for me there is that, you know, you've rightly highlighted that we've started to talk about these things. For me, the really exciting thing is that actually once you talk about stuff, that's great. But you have to action those things.

So looking at how those things get action moving. Forwards to me is really exciting to see the veterinary profession of tomorrow and the veterinary profession of the future and what that looks like and how it is more diverse, how it is more inclusive. So Stuart, it's great to chat.

Thank you so much for your time, thank you for your insights, and yeah, look forward to to looking, looking at the next stage of the journey for you. Yeah, so I, fingers crossed, so. Bye bye.