Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar. Vets welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast, and I'm really fortunate today to have Mark Johnson on the line who's going to be talking to us about a not for profit project that he's running called Vets in Mind. Mark, as many of you will know, is the managing director of Vetstream.
Obviously a veterinary surgeon as well, so welcome Mark, and thanks so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. It's a pleasure, and it's really good to be here, Antony. Thanks Mark and.
Perhaps tell us a little bit before we start, cos obviously we all know you as vet Stream MD but in, in a previous life you were as as is often said, a proper vet. We did both of us touch animals for quite a long time. I mean, you were in equine practise for a good length of time and then obviously did some academic studies.
So perhaps tell us a little bit about your, your backstory, your background. Yeah, yeah, of course. Having left Cambridge, I was lucky enough to go into equine practise in Kent in first opinion work.
In Ashford, and then quickly joined, had an opportunity to go to Rossdale's in Newmarket, and I became more and more closely involved in supporting Tim Greek, the main surgeon, who did not have an anaesthetist focused clinician, and so I quickly became his assistant and quickly took an interest in an area that terrified the living daylights out of me called anaesthesia. In critical care, mainly because I didn't think I knew very much about it, but quickly gained a lot of experience and the more cases we did, the more one learned and, and, and appreciated the opportunity of, of doing the anaesthesia, but it, it was a lot of work during the day and a lot of out of hours. And, the post-op care of some of the, acute abdomens, colics, and other cases that needed support from post-operative myopathy and other things.
Yeah, so I, I did that and, and then quite a lot of racing work, first I been in racing work and, and helped him with his referral case load. I remember when I was a student, my elective was in emergency equine medicine, well, equine surgery with Barry Edwards, which was a huge privilege because of course he was such a fantastic surgeon, but it was, it was very long hours and that was only for 3 weeks and I would imagine if you were doing that for a number of years, it would it would wear you down a bit, which I think is. Partly where.
You've, you've come to the idea of vets in mind because of your own experience of, of just struggling with a really big workload and we can do that for a certain length of time, particularly when we're young, but at some point, you can talk about resilience, but you can then break, can't you, and, and burnout can happen and I think that was. Something you were wise enough to notice that the burnout was potentially coming and that was why you decided to move in partly, if I'm getting this right, into, into academia and to do a PhD. Yeah, I, I basically was hating what I was doing and would find every excuse not to be, you know, in the practise, if I was not doing a, a, a sort of clinical surgical case or critical care, I would.
You know, I just loathed it and I just thought this is ridiculous. I spent all of this time, energy, effort coming to train and I was in one of the best practises in in the country, you know, working at the top level and just loathing it and I didn't realise because you sometimes just don't, and a lot of the symptoms that you experience, you just put down to being tired and you know. Nothing much more than that, but actually I was slipping down a, a slope, and getting more and more dissatisfied, more and more frustrated, probably harder and harder to work with, and I didn't really realise what was happening.
And I finally got to the point where I just thought, you know what, I just can't do this anymore. I've got to, and, and I didn't know what it was, I just thought I've got to be done here and I was. Able to find, before I had any form of diagnosis, realisation that actually I needed to escape from that clinical case load, that relentless 24/7, and you can't leave Newmarket and you could be interrupted any time of day or night stuff without having any outside interests, with two relatively young children at the time, and an understanding wife, .
I realised I had to change direction and I was already doing as well as my clinical work the confidential inquiry into perioperative equine fatalities, an epidemiological study which I now know is what it was, it didn't at the time, epidemiology seems to have come, come the moment, and I realised that actually that could be an escape route, . That would enable me to still do kind and you know, use my brain veterinary training, but actually not have to do this, relentless night work and then suffer the the, the, the pain and, and, and challenges of people wanting you to look at 15 lame horses the next day as well as doing all that stuff at night and not have a break and. So on and so on, it, I just, I saw an opportunity to change then and and managed to move away.
And at the same time, it was quite interesting, my mother came to stay with me and see practise effectively with me. And, my father had taken his life when I was 10, for no real reason that we could ascertain. And, that's the backstory, and then she came round and saw me in Eastern I and saw the horses and was so, you know, proud of what I was doing and all this sort of thing.
And, and she said, you know, you don't seem sort of fully engaged with this and happy, and I said, well, no, Mum, I'm frankly not. I'm absolutely hating what I'm doing, I, I don't think I'm particularly good at it anymore. I'm grumpy, I'm difficult.
I don't, I really don't think I can do this for another 30 years. And I think I'm gonna have to change, and I remember my mum saying to me, but darling, what am I going to say to all my friends in at cocktail parties and, and lunch parties and things in Gloucestershire? And I said, I don't really give a damn.
This is my life, if I don't make a change, I'm not sure I'm gonna be here in a couple of years' time. And that sort of hit home. It was a pretty unfair thing for me to have said.
However, it was the truth, and, I needed to change direction very significantly. And luckily found. State route and our profession is capable of providing lots of different routes for us.
And so if you are in a place, any of the listeners are in a place where they just think this isn't for me, don't give up on the profession, please. Explore other avenues. There are lots of different avenues in our profession, and, to use our clinical skills and our training.
And, explore those, they may not be so obvious to start with, but they're there for us, and, we must not, discard our training and find ourselves going into other areas unless they're really more suited to us. And, and frankly, that was one of the things that made me realise it. Alan and Vicky Robinson had a, a personality profile that I did.
And I found that I was, a creator, as a personality type. And the very last thing a creator needs is to do repeated, exercises and and activity time after. Time, so seeing 15 lame horses in a day or 3 or 4, general anesthesias and things was doing my head in.
Whereas I normally were are very happy and in, in my flow when I'm meeting new people, coming up with new ideas and working on them. So I realised my personality type, oops, was not suited to the type of practise I was in and so needed to change direction. Mm.
And I think it's, it's worth pointing out, you know, to younger listeners that. At that stage, most vets did their own on calls, so you could actually be up all night and still have to work the next day. So actually we are moving in the right direction and the hours are definitely shortened over the last 20 years.
But I think also sometimes it might be as simple a change as moving to another practise cause I had 2 years at the beginning which weren't very good, you know, I didn't settle into practise, I think sometimes the. The vets weren't supportive enough of the new graduates, and sometimes you just have to find the right practise to be in, and some people find that immediately, some people take some time. But some people can, you know, you can stay in clinical practise, but you can also move out, and it's not a success or a failure if you move out of clinical practise, it's finding the right niche for you.
Also with your personality type as you've said, I mean, obviously Alan and I, . Began the talent dynamic tests at the same time and brought that into the, the profession. I think it's been a really great tool for vets to recognise.
I did the same test myself, you know, at the beginning of starting webinar vet and realised that I was a star and therefore I like to shine my light on other people. But I also similarly really enjoyed consulting because when you are consulting you are presenting and you know, being able to . Show people what was going on, to educate people was very much part of, of what I like to do.
I like people as well as animals and I think if we like people and animals, the job clinically is a lot easier because we are very front facing public facing aren't we, you know, when we're in clinic. Yeah. So, no, that's really powerful and obviously post PhD, .
You, you began to get more involved with Vetstream that was setting up then as well, wasn't it? Did the PhD happen at Cambridge, Mark, or where did you do your PhD? Yeah, I, I was based at Cambridge, it started actually as a sort of flag of convenience at the Animal Health Trust, the now sadly gone Animal Health Trust, with my, supervisor Polly Taylor, but she, I moved across to Cambridge with, with being based there which was nice to go back to Cambridge.
And yeah, I quickly thought, that I was again in the wrong place. And again this is lesson number 2 is you may, . Need to go and look for another opportunity that that's gonna suit you better doing data analysis.
I'm, I'm not a numerate mathematical brain, to your point, I'm a, I'm a creator and I like ideas and I'm visual. And so I suddenly realised I was messing around with biostatistics, not understanding as much as I could. And James Wood was so helpful in enabling me to get to the end of my PhD and get that written up properly.
I had to rewrite it twice, and redo the analysis with his help. And I realised that actually I can't be doing this for the rest of my life. Epidemiology is an emerging area, but this isn't for me.
But so what I realised was one of the things that I was doing in the PhD in, in the confidential inquiry that I was running at 147 clinics around the world giving me their data, I was converting that into information and results and feeding that back into their them in practise and if you look up any of the papers and things, we were able to identify some. Really surprising risk factors which I probably shouldn't go into now, but because one had done that analysis properly with And then I realised, hmm, if I'm not going to be an academic and I'm not suited for that, I'm not suited for practise, why don't I look a little bit more into providing information back into practise. I'd already met John Grieve and seen the Vet Stream project and his amazing foresight in believing that we should back in 1995 have a handheld device that.
Provide all the information that a vet would need from satellite. You know, he was so far sighted and I thought, hm, maybe, that would be a way of doing and keeping my veterinary connections, but also doing things in a different way for the benefit of the profession and therefore for the the pet owning animal owning public. So.
I did join Vetstream, helped raise the funding, and have been pretty much involved ever since. And I basically am a content squirrel, and I go looking for content and try and work out how we can make it work together, and provide that for clinical benefit of the profession, point of care information and, whether it's on diseases or treatments or diagnostic trees of all of the domestic species that we look after. And that was fine and good, but actually because of my experience of burnout, because my dad had taken his life when I was younger, I suddenly started you know, listening to all of the reports of mental ill health in our profession and thought, I wonder whether I could do something.
In relation to that, and so I started looking for information on mental health. This was just before COVID started striking, and looking at, you know, the effects of self-harming, of sleep disorders, of eating disorders, and knowing that a number of colleagues and friends within the profession and students were suffering this and thought we've got to signpost people to places where they can have credible information. Not just nonsense and foo foo and crazy ideas, but proper evidenced information and so I started collecting all of this together and realised that actually it would be very helpful if that was contained in one's mobile phone because it's private, a desktop, a screen, a laptop is not private.
People can walk past you and see what you're looking at, and I wanted to try and have something that was sit on a mobile phone and be private so I could sit in the. The loo in my car, on an aeroplane, whatever it is, train and actually find out more about what I was experiencing. So the idea of the app came as a resource centre, initially, it's got other elements which we'll come to I'm sure in this.
But that was the idea. Where can we signpost people to get information that may be a TED Talk on a, a sleep disorder or cyber bullying or whatever else it might be, but proper credible sources. Yeah, and I think this is so important, Mark.
I know when . The Mind Matters initiative was launched by Lizzy. I, I said to her, you know, we need to make this all practical causes an initiative is great, but sometimes it doesn't go anywhere.
And we did an 8 week course with the Royal College on on mindfulness, obviously one of the tools that you can use, it's not the only one. It's really interesting when people use it, they either say, oh this is really great or or I don't know what it's all about. And actually post doing that, the number of people who came up to me at conferences and would say, You know, the clinical material you produce is great, but actually.
This has helped to change my life. I'm being more attentive. When I go on holiday, I can relax more.
I'm not shouting at my nurses. So it's such an important area, because we know of these problems that you've, you've talked about of depression, you know, going to even worse, more catastrophic things than that. So it, it is really important and I think it's realising with all of these things that not one thing is going to be the answer, but to have several resources.
So we have things like the Mind Matters initiative. We have that life, obviously that's in mind as well. I think part of the problem is that we don't accept mental illness, although it's becoming more acceptable, you know, if you break a leg, you go to accident and emergency, it gets sorted out.
The NHS is still struggling how to cope with acute mental trauma as well, isn't it? I think it is, but at the same time, I think almost more significantly is we as members of the veterinary profession and by that I'm meaning not just veterinarians, but also the nurses and everyone involved, the kennel guys, the reception people, we have to recognise where we are on our journey in life. And, and what I do recognise is that I didn't understand where I was.
And so what I, I then with the guidance of one of our really valuable trustees, Donna Gurney, who's a clinical psychologist. She was the first to sit with, you know, get down with, sit down with me and say, Mark, these resources, they're great, they're helpful, but actually what people need to do, and hopefully they're, clinically astute enough to realise they need to know and understand themselves. There are very, you know, several really well validated triaging tools that they as clinical psychologists use on anxiety and burnout and stress and PTSD and low mood and suicidal thoughts, etc.
We need to provide those for your profession, the market, the community to understand where they are on their journey. And so what we then did with Donna's guidance was to create these triage tools and put them on the bed to Mind website, so people can access them there. They're entirely confidential and anonymous.
They're anonymous because we don't collect the data about the people, and to enable. People to work out where they are on their journey, maybe at the start of their shift, maybe at the end of the week, wherever it is, to see where they are, and it's the morbidity, it's this below this iceberg below the water of those particular conditions, and then come up with a numerical score that's not a diagnosis, but an indication of where you are on that journey, and then if you are practic. The low end of anxiety, what could you do to help yourself, self-directed care?
And again, go back to the app, look at some of the resources that are there or take up some of these these activities like mindfulness, or if you score a bit higher, maybe go and see your GP. It's not an admission of failure. Mental ill health, is, invisible as you've said.
And or go and say actually to your GP I'm really, really not coping, I need some additional talking help and maybe some. Medications, and, and worst of all, is, if someone really is at a, at a very, very low point, somebody, you know, taking you to A&E so that you don't do yourself, and, and, and ultimately take your life. And those tools can be used repeatedly and enable you to understand where you are.
And I actually think that the real issue, and Jason Spenderlow at Harper and Keel was very interesting the other day. We're beginning to work with, with him as well, he thinks it's an occupational health issue, in our profession, as well as some of the. Personality types that are in us, we are, we need to address those, and I got myself in trouble because I didn't manage to see that I needed time off, the work ethic and the practise.
Peter Rostow was the most amazing man and the rest of those partners, and they just were happy to carry on doing, the, the practise work and the client was king. That's fine for them, but perhaps some of us, and maybe this was me and I didn't realise it. Was that I had a vulnerability because of my father's early death that I hadn't appreciated before, and it can come out later in life without you realising it.
And one example would be I saw a, picture, and some of you may have seen this on, on Facebook because I posted it. About a, the aura, the northern lights appeared over Bury St Edmunds, earlier this year, and, one of my friends, photographic friends photographed it and posted it on social media. It's quite unusual in Bury St Edmunds and somebody went up to the.
Lady and said, Jackie, you know, you may not know it, but somebody where in that village where those northern lights were appearing, the, the father of the family er died of a brain tumour last week and, and when he died, it was that day. Would you feel like going around and seeing the family and maybe taking that photo and and and sharing it with them, and Jackie just sort of, I don't know, OK, alright, I'll, if you think that would help. So she knocked on the door and saw the, the, the wife, the widow, and the two little children were, were there, he was 10 and, and the other daughter.
And, the boy took one look at the picture when Jackie was telling the story and said, that's Daddy, Daddy's going to heaven, right? Well, I was reading this story at 6:15 in, in, minding my own business, and I was reading this story. On Facebook and I just, this is 50 years later, 50 years, I had, and I just erupted with tears, total emotional outburst, where the hell had that been?
And 50 years later it comes back and bites you. My wife came past the bathroom and said, Are you OK? And I said, can't talk now, but I'll be out shortly.
I was completely astonished. The crochet hook, if any of you know about knitting, had gone through my chain mail and given me a huge yank, and it was wonderful to have let that out, but I had no idea that I'd still got that pain and that experience sitting there. And so many of our things in our life, we don't realise the vicarious trauma of the patients that we are seeing and the stories, the emotional stories of people and their animals and what those animals mean to them, is, and, and that's to me why I became a vet, was the importance and the therapeutic value of the human animal bond.
It was. Sitting there waiting to, to come out and, and I think part of the, the real impact of what we do with with, with the care of animals that we look after is that vicarious trauma does have an impact on us. But it also, the flip side of that, the two edged sword is doing and the picture you can probably see in the background of my, our middle daughter and Toffeee cat.
Is the stroking, the, the unconditional love, the, the, the response we get back from the animals that we care for. And, and, and I think, perhaps weirdly, but I do believe it, that actually by us contacting our patients when we're treating them, when we're examining. The enables us to release some of this emotional stuff that we otherwise carry around as a burden.
And I, I'm really believe that our profession is somehow impacted by the vicarious trauma and the other things that we're dealing with, the imperfections of, death and illness when we actually want to cure people. And because we're bright and super we have and told that the whole time, we have a fixed mindset that actually means that if something goes wrong, having been beautiful, handsome, bright, superb, etc. When a catastrophe happens, we therefore flip and think we're useless and hopeless.
And if we had a growth mindset as . Carol Dwight, identify and we realised that we were working hard on a case and that we were trying to do the right thing and you know, verbs and things that, in, in the description look it up if, if people aren't familiar, it's a really powerful concept. If we had more of a growth mindset, if we are able to experience and and be signposted appropriately to where we can get appropriate help, having triaged ourselves or colleagues, and this, it may well need you to sit down with a friend, colleague, contact, and these tools are out there for you to use in, in whatever context it is, doesn't have to be veterinary on Vets in Mind Alliance, it, it's absolutely there for you.
To find out where you are in these, on this journey of life and and to signpost you to where you can get your that extra help that that could keep you functioning as a, as a, as a clinician, as a good member of the family and your community and enjoying a bit of life, rather than hating what you're doing, because that just is gonna get you nowhere and be a real waste of the training and facilities and . Expertise that you definitely have as a veterinarian. Are you seeking the ultimate resource to elevate your practise and empower your staff?
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So I think we're in a very privileged situation, you know, in the UK we're in one of. Whether we've slipped a bit lately in in different areas, but we live in one of the best countries in the world, we're probably in the top 5 to 10% of the world population for resource, etc. Etc.
And I think sometimes I've found being grateful for what we have also . You know, I was lucky enough to do the job I wanted to do from when I was 8 and did it for 25 years. If we have a positive mindset, if we have gratitude.
Then that allows us to sometimes cope with things if they aren't quite so good, because we realise on balance that there's a lot of positive things going on. And I think for myself personally. Although I've had difficult times.
Being a man of hope is also . Has helped me to get through some of those difficult times as well, because it's, it's always a dark, you know, before the dawn comes, but the dawn does come. My, my football team has a famous anthem from Carousel called You'll Never Walk Alone, and I, I, it may sound a bit twee, but.
When we can go to other friends and, and share problems and also have that attitude which is, there is always somebody perhaps a bit worse off than I am, it can also help. I, you know, it's not the solution to everything. Obviously some people have chemical imbalances, etc.
Etc. But, I found for myself personally that gratitude is a is a great tool for getting through difficult times. If you're able to understand and appreciate that, Antony, I agree with you, but the tragedy is and I've seen this and .
In, in a number of folk that I who I can as friends and contacts and is that they don't, you don't realise where you are and this is the other thing about mental ill health is that you don't realise that you've got a broken leg or that you've, you know, you've got some of these other issues because you don't recognise that in yourself. You might recognise in other people that he's a bit weird at the moment or you know something else, but I'm fine. And and you don't.
Recognise it, so the, the, you know, the self-belief stuff, the self-esteem, and, you know, being thankful and things is fine if you, if you're, you have the ability to be able to do that, but in my situation, I just didn't give a damn about anyone else, and I was really in not a good place. I wasn't, I'm sure, a very easy person to be around. I wasn't functioning properly.
I'm sure I'd have been pushed out of the practise if I'd stayed any longer, and I was a problem child, whereas I, I was probably, you know, a pretty capable functioning member of the clinical team when I first started there, but we have to give ourselves boundaries, we have to give ourselves space. We have to recognise our personality types and I'm very grateful in the same way that you described, Antony, of understanding what sort of person I was. Many vets are absolutely happy doing the sort of regular tasks in and and love that process and love going through that and it really works for them.
I it did my head in. Without me realising it, and I didn't know what I was, and in the same way, I didn't realise that I was in a bad place, and so. The thing I would just give as a plea to people is don't have any shame about asking for help.
Please don't realise that it's, please realise that it's not gonna impact your career by you going to see your GP or to talk to a friend or your dog if it's at a certain level or your cat or wherever it is, or your spouse. But please don't sit and and get allow yourself to slip down that slippery slope because it will get you. In more trouble, whereas if you step forwards and go, actually I'm not sure, it, by the way, it took me about 3 or 4 years to go and get professional help.
I, I realised sooner that I needed to leave, being in, in practise, but it took me longer to realise I needed professional help to unlock some of the stuff. But then, as I've just said in the story earlier, 50 years later, I get some emotional outburst from looking at a photograph and reading a story about something. And sometimes it's music for people, sometimes it's a smell.
But there's lots that we don't understand about what goes on upstairs in our heads and you know, it, it takes a lot to realise what is going on there because so much of it is invisible and we disguise it. We're heroes, don't forget. You, you said it earlier, Antony, you were, you identified.
As a star, lots of vets love the, the prestige and the and the and the role that they play in people's lives. So I'm a hero, there's nothing wrong with me. and my wife has the phrase which I will clean up a little bit, but when people say I'm fine.
you can imagine the letter, the first letter, which I won't repeat, insecure, neurotic, and emotional, is her definition of I'm fine, and it's, it's the truth, you know, we, we have this proud stiff upper lip, we're British, we're, we're heroes, we're capable, yeah, you are, but at the same time we have a lot of vulnerability. And it's not wokey, it's not, it's not, we're not being wet, we can break as well. Just understanding where we are and what we are, and that's the, that's the truth, and we're fallible, and, and if we seek help, then we'll be able to enjoy the, the limited time we have on this lovely planet if we look after it properly, and we look after ourselves as well.
I think you're right, Mark, and I, I think also the, the key in your story is do what you love. And sometimes you need to find out exactly what that is, but if you're not enjoying your job and you spend so much time in it. Then that's not healthy.
I mean there are lots of people in the world who are doing jobs that they don't like, and sometimes it's because that's the only job they can get. But as a vet, as you've said, we've got our nurses, we have that ability to do other things, we don't have to be just clinicians, so it is having that . Ability to be able to look around and and to look after yourselves and I think doing what you love is a is a huge part of that.
And then it doesn't feel quite so burdensome if you are doing longer hours if it's something that you're really passionate about. But you have to take the, you know, I've since again discovered my three passions of fishing, trout fishing, photography and beekeeping. Now, you know, those things keep me in a good place, and I know that, and I've got friends I do it with, but at the same time I'm quite often doing it on my own.
And I love that, combination, and that keeps me OK. We need to be given the opportunity of the time to pursue our interests, whatever they are, and, and know that it's really important we have outside interests, but many people don't, as you say, Antony, in parts of the world, they just, all they can do is that, and the expectations of their family, and some of my trust, one of my trustees, a lovely lady, Navisha Shergill in in comes from. Indonesia, said, you know, the expectations on her, are massive to, continue succeeding and to, and, and to lead the family and support it, and the expectations on her are just that's too much, and one of the things I really value about my trustees that we've got within the group, and we as I say, we've got .
Donna Gurney is a clinical psychologist, Ivan Zak, who's a really interesting. Leader of a practise group in, in the States, and Canada, Galaxy vets, there's Sheedy Gardiner who runs a really good coaching programme and, and, senior in the Royal College and has come from South Africa in into an unusual cattle practise in Cornwall from with her background as she was, Vicky Robinson, well known practise management and and vet dynamics. And Steve Curtin, who's not a vet but has been very involved in the communications, marketing and communications aspects of veterinary medicine.
I've got a huge range of genders and racial background and Mahidi coming from South Africa and Ivan coming from Ukraine with Ukrainian background and and Donna coming from the Philippines, and then an age range as well Navisha is a student all the way through to. Old guys like me, it's really important to have different, views, and that's happened by serendipity. It wasn't, I didn't go looking for that group of diverse, folk.
It just happens and I'm so grateful that they have because they just give you a completely different view of where, you know, the the project, the opportunity and what we need to be doing. And I think one of the words that's missing in our lives at the moment is respect. And, and what I really think we, you know, is, is we just, we just need to respect individuals, people, the roles they play, and in our lives as, as, as family members, friends, colleagues, and, and I think we're, we're too easy to point the finger or not recognise the, the impact and the and the contribution that they're having.
And I would, and the politicians aren't helping, they're behaving like, you know, they're not even behaving like school children, they're behaving like idiots. school children are, are, are learning and, and, politicians should have learned by now, and, and, and it's really disappointing the role models that they have had, and I really want us as members of our profession to, to enjoy what we're doing and respect each other and enjoy our life on this, on this lovely planet while we can. Mark, that's fantastic, thank you so much and thanks for all the great work you're doing at er Vets in Mind, which is obviously a not for profit, .
And just, yeah, continue and we, we all need to make a difference and as you said at the end, respect and be kind, do unto others as you would have done unto yourself is correct, is not a bad rule to have in life. Well, no, and it's, and it actually is, I mean if you look at all of the faiths in this, in this on this world, that's one of the fundamentals. Whatever you believe in or don't believe in, and there are plenty that have different views and one, again, I respect those, is just, you know, just.
Be, be grateful because life's a bit easier and better if, if you are, and my last plea I guess is that if there are things that listeners and and others think that would be helpful for us to do with the Vets in Mind project, please contact me via the website and any of the social accounts. because we're here to try and fill a, a gap in the jigsaw, as, as you said, VetLife are doing an incredible job with what they're doing, my matters, the AVMA are doing their things in America, and so are the Australians. Lots of different initiatives, not on my vet, not on my vet, and there's, there is a big jigsaw and where, we can step in is to try and complement what those projects are doing.
And try and help, our market, our community, the veterinary community, it plays an enormous role in, in life. I, I'd love to have seen what, what might have happened with COVID if more members of the veterinary community had been involved in key decision making relating to that, because we've got a bit of experience in infectious diseases and the way that should be managed and, and, and I think if we're able to function better as a community, as people within it, . Then, and, and that's where Vets in Mind is trying to fit in.
It's trying to compliment the other and, and share the workload and signpost people to where they can get the help that they may not realise they need, but it's there if they, if people just have the courage, perhaps even holding the hand of a friend or colleague to take those first steps together, but to get that help and, and, and then live a better life as a result. Mark, thank you so much. I know how busy you are, so I really appreciate your time.
Thanks everyone for listening. Hope to hear you or see you all or listen or have you all on a a podcast very soon. So thanks very much again, Mark.
It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
