Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast. But of course we're not doing a podcast today. We're gonna be mainly talking about cats.

We may stray into dogs, so this is of course a podcast. Really pleased to have Emily Vogelberg from Siva on the line. We're going to be talking about dermatopicals.

In the old time we used to just talk about shampoos, but of course things have really broadened and advanced over the last few years. We've got some really nice topical products that we can use as mousses or as pads, particularly looking at those difficult areas to get into. So I'm really looking forward cos it's, it is a, a subject that I'm, I'm quite passionate about, you know, the use of dermatopicals in all the different formats can be.

Excellent to improve skin health in dogs and in cats. So, Emily, first of all, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the webinar and perhaps just introduce yourself to the audience. Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

So yeah, I'm Emily, I'm one of the vet advisors at Siva Animal Health, mainly looking after our Duxo S3 range. I'm, I'm a vet as well. I spent about 8 years in small animal practise, before I ventured into the pharmaceutical industry, onto the dark side, and I've been here for just over 5 years now.

That's fantastic, Emily, and of course it's really great to have Siva sponsoring this podcast, with a really super range, the Duxo S3 range, which covers a lot of the conditions that we need it to cover that we see in in veterinary dermatology. I think one of my problems, and it's something I've lectured on in the past is sometimes as vets we can choose. The wrong shampoo for the wrong condition, be disappointed with the results and then.

If you pardon the pun, throw the baby out with the bathwater and decide that derma topicals are not for us, but of course the range is now so wide and even the different types, shampoos, mousses and er pads and other products, even creams and things which obviously come into dermatopicals, it gives us a really a lot of opportunity er to be quite nuanced in the way that we treat some of these conditions. Yeah, absolutely, and I think when I was in practise, I found it so difficult to know which product to use when, because there are so many different ones and different ones for the same. Condition as well.

And this is where the Dux of estuary range is quite nice because we tried to make it as simple for the vet, as simple for the owner, and was just as stress free as possible for the pet. So we have 4 different ranges, probably 3 that you would use mostly in in practise. So you have your DuxoS3 calm range which has a, and they're all colour coded, which is quite nice as well.

So I can always show you Emily, you've got them, so those who are listening and looking can see the bottles coming up. Those of you who are just purely on a podcast, you may miss this visual aid, but yeah, Emily, do show us the, the lovely. Here you have your Duxo S3 calm, which has your pink top, so I quite like to think it as pink top for pink skin.

So it's for your sensitive or irritated skin, but you don't have any issues with bacterial overgrowth and so on. You just need something really nice and soothing. For those, and you could see that you have that in your shampoo mousse and pads, which is quite nice because it gives you wide wide variety of, of use and tailor that, to your patient and your owner as well.

So that one has a high concentration or fittrium in it, which is a natural extract from the Mondo grass plants. So it's all natural. There are no additives or anything in these products either, which is what pet owners want nowadays.

And aytrium is featured throughout the Dux of S3 range and . The calm range has the highest concentration because it is really nice and soothing. And then next, which is probably mostly used before we move on to the next one, so, using something like the calm shampoo, I often would have seen, .

Animals that were were quite irritant, so the atopic dermatitis was their major problem, they were really quite red and sore. The vitrium has that soothing action, but I think it also helps with rebalancing flora and also stops the desion of bacteria because of course with the atopic dog, we used to say, you know, was the bacteria causing the problems or was it the, the skin barrier, and often we see in atopic dogs that and cats, that skin barrier is quite damaged if you look at it under an electron microscope, it looks completely disorganised and that's sort of . Brick and cement structure has gone, hasn't it, whereas the vitrium helps to also improve and and bring that skin barrier, you know, back to some degree of normality as well.

Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned atopic dogs and we know that they, they have a, a defective skin barrier to start with. So we, it's really important to have that extra skin support for them, which I think we sometimes forget as vets as well.

We, we're focusing so much on. Reducing the itch, which is so essential because we need to make sure that the pets are comfortable, but we don't always think about treating from the outside as well or managing the skin condition from the outside as well. So yeah, that's where the Duxo estuary range is quite nice.

And I suppose again because we want to concentrate on our, our lovely cats, . Most people will will realise that trying to shampoo a cat is . It's an interesting battle that one undertakes, you know, as little as possible and, and that's one of the beauties I think of the, the moose is this is a product that you can use when bathing is difficult.

Cats usually don't like bathing, but even certainly in dogs, if you've got a, a big dog, perhaps with a client who would find that difficult to lift into a bath, shampoo. You know, if we could do, I'd probably be more in favour of. But certainly if you can't do that, the mousse is is a really good second option, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, the trials that we've done, so we, we've got a protocol which is based on ideally do a shampoo to start with to really clean the skin. And then you follow on with the mousse, 2 every 2 to 3 days for 3 weeks and it's shown, .

Really, really great results, even compared to just shampooing. It works just as well. And especially in cats as well.

So we, we've done studies in both dogs and cats. It's quite often that the studies are just done in dogs, and we think, oh, it will, it'll translate nicely to cats as well, but we want to look at both. Because we know that cats are quite specific and particular animals, and they have their own disease, processes and so on.

So, we've tested the moose. So if the cat tolerated the shampoo, they got a shampoo. If they didn't, we just did the moose and the results were just as good with just the moose as with shampoo and moose, the pads.

Yeah. So, so, obviously the calm is very much you have a, a dog or a cat that's got inflamed skin, perhaps there isn't any infection there. And using that on a regular basis, it sounds like every 2 to 3 days to a week for a period to really try and normalise.

And I, I found with shampoos, you would get into a kind of. Flow of what you saw was necessary to keep the dog or the cat skin in some order and that might have been, you know, a weekly shampoo every other week. But once you've brought it under control, these are often good products to use long term because of course AIP is a is a disease that doesn't go away after a month, it's there for the dog and the cat's life, so long term treatment is necessary and I always looked at, You know, of course you could just use steroids or Apaquel, but actually the more multimodal your treatment is usually helps you to lower the amount of oral drugs that you have to use that can often have a deleterious effect in other areas, particularly if they're being used long term and I'm you know obviously thinking about steroids there which, Probably aren't as popular as they were, but certainly when cost is an issue, and we all know Apaquel and cytopoint are expensive drugs to use compared with steroids, there is that option of using steroid, but the lowest dose possible and this is where using dermatopicals can actually help you to reduce those.

Yeah, yeah, potentially, and I think you have more experience with that in practise, as well, but yeah, there's definitely a potential and obviously using a dermatopical like you say, as a maintenance as well, not just during a flare up is in getting the owner to to do that regularly is quite good practise as well. So you're tackling it from all, all sides. Moving on obviously to the dog or cat, and I think this is, I remember Ian Mason saying after he'd done his PhD the the dog is a pioderma waiting to happen.

And again, you know, as we've moved, certainly over the last 1020 years and wanting to use less and less systemic antibiotics, then it's really important to have shampoos that deal with pyodermas and of course the, the next part of the Duxo S3 range is, is the Pio range, isn't it, which is a chlorhexidine based shampoo. Maybe a little bit about that. Yeah, so just to show you as well.

So again, it comes in a shampoo, mousse, and pads, but it has an orange top on it. So, again, all colour coded, which is easier for the, for the pet owner. So the pile range, it also has a fitrium in it, but obviously also the chlorhexidine to have, that, that antiseptic effect, and it's got 3% chlorhexidine.

What's quite nice about having the oytrium is that, is that, chlorhexidine can be quite drying to the skin, as I'm sure we probably already all of us know from scrubbing up for surgeries, it, it can be really sore on our skin, and it's the same for animals. So the oytrium really counterbalance that, drying effect. So you have a moisturising effect as well as obviously limiting that adhesion of bacteria to the skin, .

Whilst also having the anti antiseptic effect of of the clorhexidine, so it's quite a nice, nice range. So, so yeah, with the chlorhexidine, it, it obviously is antifungal, which, which means that sometimes, you know, in cases that I saw, you could have a really, really itchy dog in, but if you could get rid of the fungus, actually the itch could really diminish and again using this on a regular basis, may be the only treatment that you need because there may be a bit of AIP in there, but actually the major. Itch cause if you like, is the fungus, and if you get rid of the fungus.

And can control the fungus, then, the dog can, can be so much better and these used to be really satisfying cases for me, a fungal infection, treating with, ayhexidine product would often have a really, really profound effect and we almost felt that. Some of the fungus might be acting more as a sort of hypersensitivity, so almost like an allergic response to that fungus rather than a, you know, a true sort of infection if you like. And, and that's where the cytology side of things comes in as well, because I think we're.

We might suspect that there is a pyoderma or some sort of overgrowth going on, but we don't know whether it's bacterial or yeast or fun, fungal infection. And if we just start throwing antibiotics at the animal, without actually knowing if it's a yeast or bacteria, then the antibiotics are just not gonna work, if we have a yeast infection there. So.

Always confirming I suppose with cytology is good as well. Yeah, we're also trying more and more as dermatologists to use less and less antibiotics. So before we start on something, cytology is, is really interesting.

I used to do cotton buds and just roll that onto the skin, particularly if it was very greasy and put that onto a slide, stain it with dip quick and. B the fungus and bacteria you often really need a good 100, lens that you can always go to oil immersion, and that helps you to see them so much more clearly, so. A piece of advice for vets and nurses listening, you know, a, a good quality microscope pays for itself very quickly in, in the more cytology that you will do, because an average microscope will allow you to do the parasitology stuff, but I, I think the microbiology is much more difficult if you don't have a nice oil immersion lens, and then obviously looking after the .

The immersion lens by making sure you clean it properly, will really help to keep it, you know, at a good, give you good quality results. So and I guess just adding to that, if, if people think that they might not get the most use out of the microscope, I think it's about 1 in 5 of the patients that we see in practise are dermatology cases, so a big case load that we see in general practises is dermatology cases as well. And they're also the most frustrating sometimes, so if we can get it right the first time, it will be so much better for, for all parties, I think.

Definitely and and again the, the higher range is available. As a shampoo, a mousse and pads, and I, I think pads are so useful in these sort of conditions because thinking about the bulldog with lots of skin folds often has folds around at the bottom and around the tail, and if you look into these folds and you actually stick your finger in and then. Kind of sniff it, I know that sounds a bit disgusting, but you can get a very good idea of if there is some fungal things going on there and.

In those cases, I was often recommending to clients that they'd be using these on an almost daily basis because if you have a dog like a bulldog, this is a high maintenance dog that needs a lot more care than than maybe an ordinary mongrel would have because those skin folds can be so problematic and can cause a lot of irritation, . To the dogs just because it's, it's very sweaty and moist in those areas, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

And yeah, that's where the pads are quite, quite handy as well because you just, and people don't usually want to touch sore areas or or greasy areas either. So just to put that on your finger and rub it into the, the skin fold is is quite nice, without them having to like put a cream on or anything like that. So.

And then you've got the final one, the Sevare range, which is really for those cases that you might see that look quite scaly. This is where this product will really come in and you've got the evitrium in which is your Japanese Mondo grass, but also. Another product that you can perhaps tell us a bit.

Yeah, so, it, it has obviously fitrium that you've said, and something called ebayons, which is another fun fun name, but it's an extract from the, the pomegranate peel, that helps to. Restabilize the quantification process. So in those cases where we know they, they're really done ruffy and they get big flakes of, of skin and so on, it really helps calm that down, and stabilises that quantification process, but also in cases that are quite greasy, .

It, it kind of calms down the the the spacious glands so you don't get that excessive, sebaceous or semen production. And, and this is quite useful, you often see in older cats, they get quite scaly. Also diabetes mellitus in cats, they can often be quite scaly as well.

And again you've got the mousse there which will allow you to use it, instead of the shampoo where, as we say, cats and shampooing aren't always the best bedfellows. No, exactly, so yeah, it comes as shampoo and mousse, and again you can see it's colour coded, so that one is green. Which is quite nice for the owner, but yeah, I, I do really like, the moose for, for elderly cats like you say, and we've had some really good feedback on that, where the cats are maybe and maybe they're a bit arthritic as well, has hyperthyroidism and their skin is just not quite, quite right.

They're quite scurfy and, you just add a little bit of support for that skin and their, their fur gets really nice and glossy and . Reduces a dandruff as well. Brilliant and I love the fact that the shampoos are using quite a lot of natural products, you know, botanicals, and this always kind of makes me think about the importance of the natural world.

We've got all these super products and some of them, you know, plants. We don't even know all the good things that they can do. I mean, who, who discovered that pomegranate peel could actually help to, to reduce scaling and so on, it's a, it's an amazing discovery.

Mm, it really is. Yeah, I mean, we, we've listened really closely to what pet owners want and what vets obviously want from their dermatopicals, and something that was quite important to pet owners especially was, that there weren't any like additives or controversial ingredients in there. So we just have natural, products in, in the, in the Dux of S3 range, which is, it's quite appreciated by owners, and they obviously also wanted it to be.

Well tolerated by their pets, but also themselves because we're the ones to actually put it on. So we have, we have trials to, to say that it's it's perfectly fine for us to put on our hands as well as putting on your pet. Yeah, brilliant.

And I suppose we should kind of finish off by mentioning Doxo 3 care, which is it's probably your sort of bog standard shampoo and mousse that when people used to come to me quite often and. My old advice from 30 years ago was, wash your dog as little as possible because a lot of the old fashioned shampoos actually would strip a lot of oil out. So if you were washing regularly, the likelihood is you're gonna dry the the dog out, you know, that the skin and the skin would be quite scaly.

Whereas of course now the shampoos that are produced are much less likely to do that. So I know again. The care has the ovitria in, which really helps to soothe the skin, but also prevent drying out as well, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's designed to be for, for regular use, if you want to use it for regular use. I'm like you, I don't, I don't recommend that someone baths their dog like every week or so and you do it as as needed if they don't have any issues, but yeah, we do have a obviously a shampoo, the blue top. For your general use, with the fitrium to help just support the skin during those bath times.

It's quite nice for puppies as well. I do remember being in practise and people coming in like, is there a shampoo that you could recommend for my puppy, for example, and I wasn't aware of the dexa range at that point, but. I, if I was in practise now, I would probably recommend this one because it's nice and gentle as well, and it's got a really nice smell as well.

Yeah, if you, if you take, I live quite close to the beach, you take your dog out and he, he gets covered in mud or she gets in mud, then that sort of shampoo just to cleanse the the skin and cleanse the hair is would seem a sort of sensible option. Yeah. And and can also be used on pots if, if it's only the legs that get dirty.

You don't always have to shampoo the dog completely, it can just be in those areas and, you know, particularly looking at maybe when there are infections, sometimes that can just be a very. Small discrete areas, so you can also shampoo just in those armpits and groynes, which often are the sort of sweaty areas that can be more prone to to problems, can't they? Yeah, exactly.

And. Emily, I've really enjoyed learning more about the range. I, I, it seems to cover pretty much all that I would want it to do as a, as a dermatopical.

We could obviously talk about, you know, the various other creams and things that are out there, but that's maybe for another time. So thank you for, for the great work that Sibra are doing in this because I think topical treatment is so important. It can soothe the skin, it can make the skin more comfortable, but it can also help us drop, the need to be using oral drugs like antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, etc.

So, so thank you for coming on and explaining and, and obviously being, part of the team that's er developed the product as well. Yeah, no, thank you very much for having me. It's been great.

Thanks, thanks Emily. Thanks everyone for listening, or watching, just a reminder, I think calm was pink, pretty in pink. Orange pio range, yeah.

Green for the separa. Yeah. And then blue for the care, so colour coding it.

Those of you who are colour blind, apologies. Yeah, sorry. Otherwise, look for the name as well.

Thanks so much, Emily, thanks everyone for listening and or looking and hopefully see you on another podcast very soon. Take care. Bye bye.