Hello, I'm Steve Chadwick from the webinarets welcoming you to another of our vet chat episodes. We're very fortunate today to have Doctor Deborah Thompson on the line. Doctor Deborah Thompson is a vet from, qualified from Tufts with a DBM and also a certificate in International Veterinary Medicine.

Among other things that she's done, she spent a year at Washington as a congressional Science and Engineering Policy fellow. She's very, very, passionate about the One Health approach within veterinary and, the medical, sciences, and he's also the chair of the One Health Education subgroup of the World Veterinary Association. So welcome, Deborah.

Thank you so much, Anthony. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Thank you so much for for coming on.

I've just come back from COP 26. What are your thoughts on what's come out of COP 26? Is that something that's, that's made you optimistic, or are you pessimistic with the, the document that's come out of there?

Oh boy. Well, first off, it must have been incredible to be there in person, Anthony. That must have been outstanding.

I'd love to hear more about that experience just living it, you know, instead of hearing it from the sidelines. I was not present, but I saw, through my network so many people, posting and sending me emails about, oh, check out this recording or check out these notes. My general sense.

Is that . In some ways, there's lip service. Paid, right?

Hm. However, I don't think that this year, how, how should I say this? I think that this year is much more powerful than previous years.

I think that even though there could be some lip service there, because certainly change is difficult, especially when we're talking about governments, right, or intergovernmental relationships. It's always gets spicy, but I feel like there's a real urgency, a real need. Now, when you look at some statistics, some people say, OK, well, we're behind the ball, right?

But honestly, we can't go back in time. We can only think about today and we can think about tomorrow. And it sounds like as long as people actually do what they say they they plan to do.

That there is more hope for the future to try to mitigate these issues that we've had been developing as human beings, on the planet for the last several, several decades, hundreds of years. So, my general impression is that I have a reserved hope. But I think that it's not just COP 26 that we have to talk about.

We have to talk about, climate change, we have to talk about changes to the environment. Some people prefer saying that, and we have to talk about one health on a daily basis and not just talk about it, we have to act. It's now time to act, and that's every person on this planet.

I know you're very passionate about one health, but I think you, you're right if we get the one health component right, if animals are healthy, if humans are healthy, the environment will be looked after more than if you've got humans who need to cut down the forest because they need to keep warm. Or they need to grow their crops. So it is, it, it's a very holistic approach I think we take when we start to bring all the constituents together.

I also loved the idea of we can only look forward, so the best time to plant a tree was obviously 20 years ago, but the next best best time is today, isn't it? Absolutely, do what you can today. Don't miss a moment.

If you have an opportunity to make a difference, do it today and don't wait till tomorrow. I know we were talking about government acts slowly, when you look at the different constituents of government, individuals, and I was on the march in the middle of Glasgow with 100,000 people protesting, it's, it's, it's still interesting though within that protest. There are political groups that then try to hijack the environmental ideas and try to make it more political, but actually at that at that protest, you know, we wanted to just talk about the environment and I think we talk about other things, you know, we weaken it, but also business as well.

You know, is it top down or is it bottom up or is it a mix? Yeah, it's definitely a mix, and I'll, I'll say 2, I'll make two comments on what you just said, . People, human nature, we as human beings tend to be egocentric.

We think about ourselves, we think about our families, and those are our priorities. If you think about the deep down, right, we want to survive. And we as a species will do anything to survive, right?

Now, in the past, when people talk about, you know, the importance of biodiversity, the importance of conservation. There was never a tie between that conversation and our own health. And that was a huge gap in the general public.

And even now the bridge is starting to be formed, but it's not general knowledge. The way I describe This connection to children, in these lessons called One Health lessons, we could talk about that later if you want, but I speak about how our, our, Impact on the environment plays a role in our own health. So I bring the message back to your health, your mother's health, your daughter's health, but If we treat the environment poorly, say for instance, deforestation, then the animals that are in the smaller forest become stressed.

They have lack of loss of food, loss of shelter compared to before, and when they're stressed, cortisol goes up and general public understands the concept of cortisol stress hormone, causing a weakened immune system, showing more signs of disease and sharing of germs is more likely, and then from there the animals have to move out of a degrading forest. So where do they move? They move closer to people.

And the children actually at that point in the lesson know about what a zoonotic disease is. And then we have that conversation. So how can deforestation have a real impact in your own health?

Well, think about what's between everything. It's those animals, right? But also in the environment, of course, we talk about clean air, clean water, you know, poor water quality is going to lead to sick people and sick animals, of course.

So that's one thing I wanted to mention because it's not just, of course, about animals and people, but it's that shared environment and having that message be memorable to the audience is very important. The other thing that you mentioned is, the marches. Now I remember when I was working in Washington DC it's a typical, so a little bit of background.

I, I have been a clinician, a veterinary clinician for several years, and then I took a let's call it a sabbatical from that, and I worked in an office, and that's very different, a desk job, right, an office job, very, very, very different than working in the OR for instance. I was very comfortable in scrubs. I was less comfortable immediately in a business suit, right?

So I remember when well-intentioned people were coming into the building where we were all working on, you know, drafting pieces of legislation to help mitigate climate change and things like that, but people were coming in banging on pots and pans and interrupting the flow. Of our daily work, and that was distracting and I was thinking, you know, I'm looking at these people and I can't say anything because of my position at that time, but I'm looking at these people, I'm like, we're on the same team. But, but I can only imagine how Disruptive that would be to the people who don't believe in climate change, or people who are apprehensive to accept it, because that sheer action to come into a place of work and bring that amount of energy and disruption to a place of business where The where the idea of, you know, of not, not supporting a green green energy or or whatnot, it would be.

Detrimental, I think. I feel like we need to have a time and a place where that's appropriate and certainly in the streets. OK, I understand why people do that.

But also it's, it's important to tailor your message to your audience. If you want to change the minds of people who are on the fence, don't go in and bang pots and pans in their office. You see what?

We have the same situation in the UK where people were chaining themselves or blocking the M25, and of course. Motorists that are late for work, they're burning up CO2 by their cars idling, so something which is being done. To point out that the climate is, is in crisis is, is actually causing more of a problem than solving and as you say, if it alienates people, then it's not the right way to go.

So it's always got to be a non-violent, doesn't it? Oh, absolutely nonviolent, absolutely. And my story is to prove that, prove the point that I think you can get the message across to all different audiences.

It's just that you have to tailor that message specifically for that audience. Being disruptive certainly gets attention, but is it productive? That's the question.

It's almost the mix, isn't it? Greenpeace are an organisation that's very active in the UK and I think they do. Great work in raising awareness, but it has to be, it's when it crosses the line, and it also, You know, government at the moment is doing great work in the UK with tax breaks encouraging people to take on green vehicles, you know, electric vehicles, which that's great, but then of course the batteries, the lithium batteries, I was speaking to somebody at COP 26, the lithium is, is actually mined in Chile and causing a lot of pollution.

So. As you get a little bit older you realise that life is not black and white, it's grey, isn't it, Deborah? Absolutely, it's great.

But the beautiful thing is that science and engineering is always changing. That's the point of research, right? So, whereas today, yes, sure, we have er we have to mind from a certain place, but there are chemical engineers out there.

There are physicists out there, there are geologists out there who are trying to Figure out how to solve these problems and then in 5 years, what will change? In 10 years, what will change? So I think it's that balance of mitigating the problems that we have now and encouraging.

Innovation to help solve these problems in a sustainable way. And I love what you're suggesting there, which is all around collaboration, which is very much scientists, artists, everybody working together, but you know, particularly. Your area of interest and expertise is one health.

Tell me a little bit about the work that's happening at, you know, in your neck of the woods over the pond, to try and encourage that collaboration between doctors and and and vets and other medical professionals. I know you were talking about meetings that you have together, how have they been going? Yeah, thanks for the question.

I've been very encouraged. Very encouraged. There's been a lot more chatter about One Health, and just for the benefit of the audience, I explained One Health in two different ways.

The one health concept is the interconnection between our health and the health of the environment, animals and plants. Then the one health approach is collaboration. It's just teamwork between people of different backgrounds, disciplines, strengths, we come together and solve and prevent health problems.

So those are the two sentences that really go along with one health. At the federal level, I can say that there's been a lot of movement, a lot of efforts, to push bills and have them hopefully become laws to protect the environments, not only in this country in the United States, but also abroad. So for instance, there is an act, a bill that's called the Forest Act.

The FORES stands for, it's long, so get prepared. Fostering overseas rule of law and environmentally sound trading. What on earth does that mean?

What that means is that it helps stop illegal deforestation around the world and fight climate change. The, the real effect is to reduce the incentives to sacrifice forests for agriculture, and use the market to leverage, to leverage improving laws and monitoring and enforcement in countries, that have been pretty . That, that have been promoting, deforestation in particular palm oil, because palm oil is in everything right now, and palm oil is can be associated with illegal deforestation.

So whoever thought of that bill, I would say is a genius. That was brilliant, . So, and the point of policy for for folks that are not in the policy world, I explained policy in a way that it's a way to change or alter behaviour of a group of people in order to make the Population healthier and safer.

And I love the idea of the palm oil. We have a supermarket in the UK called Iceland, like the country, it's a more frozen foods than anything, and they took the action of saying, you know, we will only accept products that are from sustainably, . Sustainable forests of, of palm oil, cause obviously as you say, it's a big deforester, so this is one of those examples where governments and business can work together to, to make change as well, isn't it?

Absolutely. And and that comes from top down, but then also the consumers, right? It's the consumer showing that they want this change.

And, and hopefully more, supermarkets or markets in general will follow Iceland's, lead. We know that the the orangutans are in the middle suffering from this where they're losing their home. We see these dreadful pictures, they're, you know, very close to us, aren't they, as as as relatives, and we have a duty to, to give them a place on the planet.

There's enough room for, for all of us, isn't there? Absolutely, all those photos, those photos can make me cry. Yeah, absolutely, so meaningful.

Now, one of the guys who was very good at because, you know, obviously there's a lot of us who would agree with that whole idea about palm oil. Some of, some people in the population will know nothing about it. I know Steve Jobs was, was an advocate and a he was one of the first to really show how to change people's ways.

I mean that that is also a challenge. So how, how do we do that, do you think, to make people realise it's education isn't it? I know some of the lessons that you give are amazing to, to make those links, but maybe explain that to me.

Thanks, yeah, another thing about human nature is that we are in general, a little bit resistant to change. We are comfortable with what we are used to, right? Just the fact of the matter.

So if say we're we're an innovator, OK, we put our innovator hats on right now. If we want to change the minds and the and the priorities of the communities around us, we have to have a certain part of our message be very similar enough to have it be recognised as something that the public wants and it feels like it is digestible. But also adds an extra flavour, an extra flair to push the needle towards sustainability.

An idea that I that I have thought of, but I, I think right now in 2021 it's not yet possible, but I think with technology and the engineers working hard and through the one health approach, people of different backgrounds and skills working together. We can actually achieve something like this. So my idea, if I had a, you know, the most money on the planet and I could dedicate it to one thing to save the planet, I would say to invent cars that act like plants.

So the energy is coming from the sun, you put in water, you, and it could be fresh water or dirty water, which is even better. And then it, the vehicle would take up CO2 and expel 02, would expel oxygen. And then wouldn't that be incredible.

People would not have to change their ways on a daily basis. They would not have to take that quote unquote hardship as people in the developed world are accustomed to, but it's another way to add quote unquote plants. To the world.

That's just an idea. I don't know if that'll be science fiction forever or if they'll actually ever happen, but, you know, it's thinking outside the box and realising what your limitations are, and the limitations are people cause you can have the best idea in the world, but if you can't pitch that idea and get buy-in from the general public, not worth anything. It ain't gonna work, is it?

No, I think that's a really great point and. And it is that those innovators, those creators who, like Steve Jobs created something in a sense with the iPad and the iPhone that we didn't even realise that we needed. It's creating something like that which, you know, can be a real force for good, you know, with the environment as well.

So, yeah, absolutely, it's, it's a very interesting time. We will, we will look out for this in the next decade, with the. The, the solar powered car, which yeah, would be fascinating.

I wanted to finish off in the last few minutes, talking about your book because you obviously just published a book called The Art of Science Communication. This has obviously been an area that you've been interested in for a long time and very much sits in with the one health concepts. I know you teach in schools or you provide lessons that can be taught in schools.

Tell me a little bit about the book and the premise of the book and maybe why people on the podcast at the moment should think about buying a copy. Oh, thanks for bringing this up. It's really nice of you.

The, so the title itself is the Art of Science communication. The subtitle is sharing knowledge with students, the public, and policymakers. This book is pretty much lessons learned over the last 20 years.

Of my life in either working in the classroom as an educator, or working as a curriculum developer or working as a policy adviser on Capitol Hill with the with a very powerful and established American senator. Or as a clinician. I have been doing locum work for, several, more many years now, and I'm actually going to be giving a talk with your fantastic group later today, so that's very exciting.

But lessons learned after I'm done with certain projects, I always write notes for myself and I say, OK, if, if I was starting on day one, what would I want to know? And especially after that policy job where I was meeting with scientist after scientist, and when I say scientists, I mean veterinarians, I mean physicists, I mean physicians, ecologists. Engineers as well.

And oftentimes I'll say more than once, I'll say it like that, after the guest leaves the office with their idea of how to improve the planet or, you know, pitch their idea, then my colleagues turn to me and say, Deb. Can you translate that for us? What does that mean?

Because even though you're really well intentioned and you have the courage and the opportunity to bring a certain message to an influential office, they missed the boat, as we say. It was like they were speaking past each other, and I was seeing it in real time, and I was trying to bridge the two, the two parts of the, the boardroom. .

But I'm like, how do I get this message out there? I'm writing these notes, I'm like, I need to publish this. And I realised that if you can.

Explain something as complicated as one health, for instance, 2 children as young as 6 years old, you will then be able to communicate something as complicated as that with the general public, with journalists. And with other influencers such as politicians. So this book is fairly short, it's less than 100 pages, and I did that on purpose.

I did that so it could fit into a pocketbook, a suitcase, a a a backpack, or even a jacket pocket, . I wanted it to be accessible, and on the cover, I have an illustration because I wanted to play up the art piece, because certainly communication is art. But that illustration has a very diverse audience.

It has people of different ethnicities, different ages, there are children, there are parents, there are people in business attire that represents the the politicians, for instance. But it's really how you get your message across in a meaningful way that will truly make a difference. And I think it's a great place to finish because within all of this, quite often in the world today we have a binary approach, which is the right or the left or the right or the wrong or the good or the bad, and actually, as Solzhenitsen said, the heart is split in two between good and evil.

And it's how we actually learn to listen better and begin to understand the different constituents and then come to, you know, a collaborative approach rather than a competitive or a battling approach that we often see, certainly in politics in the UK, you know, and. In other areas as well. So, what a great book.

I am looking forward to getting a copy reading and, and, taking in and, and seeing how I can do things a bit differently, which is of course what education is about, isn't it, with a webinar, with a book, whatever it is. Can you take one or two pieces from that, and it, it improves you as a lifelong learner. Yeah, absolutely, and that's why this podcast is so amazing.

This podcast series is so amazing, and I really value what you have contributed not only to the veterinary world, Anthony, but really the world. You have made some incredible differences and I really, really appreciate this time together. Oh, you're very kind, Deborah, and I will look forward to seeing you later to learn some locum hacks as well.

Wonderful, yes, let's talk locum work in just a few hours. Take care. Bye bye.

Thank you, bye.