Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. Today we are continuing with the webinar Vets menopause Awareness celebrations, and I'm delighted to be joined by Rob Williams, who will be helping us to understand male perspectives of the menopause. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about our guests today.
Rob qualified as a vet from University College Dublin in 2001 and worked as a small animal vet in the UK from graduation until 2018. He undertook a wide variety of roles including small annual internship at Glasgow Vet School, a surgery residency in a private referral practise, and a clinical director role at Minster Vets in York. Rob started working for Vett Partners in 2016, initially developing education initiatives such as graduate and managers programmes.
In 2018, he left clinical practise, joined the people team at Vet Partners, and is currently head of talent, looking after a wide portfolio of human resources activity in the UK and in Europe. Rob's areas of interest are employee engagement, coaching, clinical and business leadership and organisational culture. He has an MBA is a Charters manager, and is a fellow of the Charters Management Institute.
So welcome, Rob, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. So this is the 2nd year, Rob, that we've worked together with raising awareness of the menopause.
Last year you joined us for a panel discussion which was fantastic. And it's great to have you back again, so thank you so much. No worries, glad to be here.
Brilliant, could you start, just by sharing why you think it's so important for men to be part of the conversation surrounding the menopause? I suppose there's, there's a very obvious reason, and that is that we all have women in our lives, whether it's mother, grandmother, sisters, partners, children, so even though men don't, experience menopause, directly, indirectly, we do because people in our families. Experiences.
And if we, if we think wider in the in the veterinary context. The vast majority of people that work in practise are female. So the colleagues that we work with on a daily basis in our clinical teams.
Are predominantly female or almost exclusively female. So whatever way we look at it, men that work in the veterinary industry should definitely have an awareness of and an appreciation of menopause and the impact it will have on their, their female colleagues and female family members. Mhm.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, that's great. And is that kind of what motivated you to get involved with this podcast and these discussions?
Yeah, I, I, I was nominated by a male colleague to join the webinar last year, because he thought I might have something vaguely interesting to say, but definitely, this year, is very, it is very much from that, that. Wider context that we do need to understand this as men, and then the role we can play then in in trying to support. Our female colleagues or female family members if they are going through menopause.
Brilliant, fantastic. That sounds good. So let's start with, what was your kind of first understanding of the menopause?
When did you kind of first start to be aware of it and I suppose, like most, male children, when my mom, went through the menopause, I think that's, that's pretty, when I noticed it first, and, she definitely experienced, like hot flushes and, . It was quite moody and that kind of thing, so it was quite obvious that there was something happening and it was menopause. I think, and part of that's most men's experience at least be their mom or their partner or maybe a sibling, a sister, .
And they kind of experiences as a remove, . But in, in a family setting. And then latterly because pretty much all of my career I've worked in teams that are predominantly or in some cases exclusively female, then you do witness it.
The impact of menopause on colleagues at work as well, . I suppose I wasn't, it wasn't something I was like massively conscious of or or the role that I might play until somebody in my team, had a conversation with me about the fact that they were experiencing menopause. So I suppose it's kind of it's a varied thing, but definitely, watching your mom go through is, is probably most people's experience.
Yeah. And was she quite open talking to you about it because it's always quite an interesting thing. Like I'm so close to my mum, but she never once in her whole life has talked to me about it.
Yeah, a bit bizarre. Yeah, I would probably echo that. So I'm, I'm very close to my mum, like there's an Irish eldest son, Irish mom thing.
But, I don't think she'd have been comfortable talking about her experience and certainly her emotional experience of menopause, but The physical experience of it is sort of hard to hide, particularly. If you're not sleeping or you're, you know, hot, like melting one minute and then frozen cold the next, those are kind of things that you can physically see in somebody else, . I do, I suppose like a lot of things you don't like to see your mother or your sister or your aunt physically uncomfortable, so that was .
I would have felt for her in that sense, but it probably. The dynamic is more a bit jokey, because we tend to, we, we tend to joke about everything in our family. So we probably have been.
More I can see that she's experiencing something and it's making her uncomfortable, but the reaction on both sides would have been more jokey rather than a kind of a deep emotional connection. Yeah. That makes sense.
Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, and do you think, so was that kind of your perception of what the menopause was then was it sort of hot flushes? Change of temperature, things like that.
Yeah, yeah, there was definitely a a really big physical component to the experience of menopause. I, I wouldn't really. I didn't really have any appreciation that there, there were other layers to the experience, like there is emotional, a massive emotional aspect to it, or that there were like cognitive, you know, people can get this kind of brain fog thing where they just can't focus or can't remember or their short-term memory is a bit hazy.
Or that there were other physical signs like it's not just hot flushes, like people can have a degree of physical discomfort. They can have sore muscles and sore joints. That, that wasn't, I I had no awareness of that until a colleague actually, spoke to me one day and, definitely I'm very grateful to that colleague in in the sense because I I have a much deeper understanding of of the spectrum of what people might experience as a result of that colleague having a, having a conversation with me.
Yeah, brilliant. OK, fab. Yeah, we actually, we recorded a podcast which will be out as part of this series with Melissa Donald and she really sort of went into the mental health struggles alongside the physical struggles of the menopause.
But that's brilliant that your colleague felt that she could open up like that to you. Yeah, and I think it, it, I think for her, she cause she was a little bit younger. Mhm.
I suppose typically people experience menopause like in their 50s or maybe their late 40s and and this particular colleague was younger than that. And it was it definitely had an emotional kind of psychological impact on her, and she was very open about that. So that was, that was, I suppose from my perspective in a slightly selfish way that was brilliant because it opened up.
The idea that menopause is a much bigger thing than than a very obvious visual physical sign. Yeah. Fantastic.
And were there any sort of common misconceptions that you had around the menopause that you now know? And I suppose the things I've just spoken about like it's not just a physical thing. There's so much more layers to how how people experience it.
And it's it's very individual. It's one of those things. So it's a common experience, like 51% of the population are going to experience this, or nearly all of that population.
So that's a common experience. But actually for each individual who experiences menopause, they will experience it in a different way. And it's not this similar to Other big life stage things that happen.
So, and if we took a veterinary example, when people graduate from vet school and they get their first clinical job, that's a huge life stage transformation from being a student to being a fully fledged professional. Yeah. So that experience is common to all people who've gone through that experience, but to each individual that who's transitioning from student to professional, it will be unique to them.
So there's I think Of where people go wrong is they assume, well, my mom experienced menopause in this way. I saw what it was like. So therefore, your experience of menopause is going to be exactly the same and like, why would it be?
So I think that that idea that it, you do have to think about the individual is experiencing it in in your workplace and how best. You can understand what they're experiencing and then work out with them how, how you might be able to help. I think a lot of times people will think, oh, it's nothing to do with, with me as an employer, like that's your problem, which I don't think is a healthy, I mean that's not right, but it's not a healthy thing either.
I think, . People can have ideas that it's very debilitating and very a very miserable experience, and it absolutely will be for some people, but for other people it isn't. Some people view it very negatively, and there's a lot of, I suppose, emotional thought, that goes with this life change and other people view it positively.
So you can't. I think defaulting to menopause is a little box and it kind of sits here, is a not not a good way of thinking of it. You need to think of it.
It's an experience and whilst the experience is common, it's, it's very much an experience that is unique to each person that experiences it. Yeah, no, that's, that's great advice, Rob. And I completely agree.
Like, I'm not at the age yet where I'm going through the menopause, and, but everybody who I speak to who is, is having totally different experience. It's, it's definitely not kind of, you know, one experience is the same for everybody. That's probably the biggest thing to, to be aware of, I would say is that.
Is that idea that it's it's, it is slightly different for everybody, and that's what we need to remember as a starting point. Brilliant. And do you, from your experience, how do you think male colleagues or you know male supervisors in teams can best support women who are going through the menopause?
Well, I think the first thing is to not ignore it or dismiss it or think that's nothing to do with me. I'm a, I'm going to find, a lady manager to come and help you. You know, if you're, if you're in a leadership position.
Then you have a responsibility as the starting point, and part of the responsibility is to take ownership of things. So if somebody comes to you with with a problem or an experience or something that's concerning them, then, then part of your responsibility as leaders is to, if you like embrace whatever that thing is and try and work with the person to come to a resolution. So I think that's the first thing.
The second thing, probably the most important thing is to really work to understand, your colleagues' perspective and their experience. And how their experience of menopause is impacting them. So not rushing to judgement or you know, doing something really trite like, oh, here's, here's the website web address of a support thing, you know, knock yourself out, go and look at the website because I'm too busy actually taking the time to really listen to them and really try and understand.
What their experiences, what their concerns or worries are, or how it's impacting them at work or outside of work. I think that definitely has to be the first thing. And then just being open to the possibility that You can then do some probably very simple things to support that person.
If you understand where they're coming from. Then without any knowledge of menopause at all, you'll be able to support them just, just by listening in, in the first place, but also making them aware that you're here to help. So if there are things that they would like to explore.
That might help them when they're at work, that you're, you're here and you're willing to listen and you will try as best you can to, to come up with solutions that will help support the person at work. So I think having a very individualised and very person centred approach and not being dismissive is probably, probably the most important and if you think about it. The amount of courage it would take somebody to come and tell you something that personal about themselves is huge, and if you're dismissive or flippant, or it's not a priority for you, then you've done something really horrible because you've, you've, you've effectively pushed that person away at a time when they're vulnerable and they really need you.
So I think having the presence of mind to go, the amount of courage it will take you to knock on the door and say, can I speak to you for 5 minutes? It is enormous and you should respect that if, if nothing else. Now, you might know anything about menopause and that's fine.
You can't know everything about everything. And it may be that the end of the conversation is, well, look, give me a few days. I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually go and learn a bit more about this and see if I can get some advice about how best we could try and support you at work cause I, I actually don't know and that's OK, it's OK to say I don't know.
But what's not OK is not to acknowledge, and, and kind of respect. The story and experience of the person who's who's talking to you. Yeah, yeah, and it's, I guess it's having that workplace culture, isn't it, where you feel like you can have these conversations with your team.
Yeah, definitely, and, and like it is scary it's scary on both sides. It's, it's definitely in a lot of cases scary or . It's a little, it's a challenge for the, the person who needs to come and tell you something about themselves.
But it's equally on the leader's side, our manager's side. It is scary when somebody pitches something at you at that totally blindsides. You had no idea it was coming, and you're thinking, right, now, now what do I do?
And what do I say? And the beautiful thing is you don't generally have to say very much to start off with. It's just acknowledge, and indicate that you're willing to be supportive.
So you can get away with saying very little in a lot of cases, and people will, most people will be very appreciative of the fact that you've listened, and if you can indicate that you've, you've taken some Understanding of their position, again they'll appreciate that too. Brilliant. So would that be your advice to just really encourage kind of women in practise who are going through this just to be brave and to really start the conversation.
Absolutely, so yeah, completely, so. Sometimes where, situations like this go wrong is somebody in the team has something they need to tell their line manager and they're worried about the reaction of the line manager. Yeah.
And maybe on prior experience that they might have some reason to worry about the reaction of the land manager. But I would, I would say, a different way of approaching or thinking about things like this is If the line manager isn't aware that you're experiencing something that is impacting you, then you're giving them no opportunity to help you. And if we work on the principle that most of the time, most people are reasonable, and most of the time most people do want to help, particularly if somebody has some kind of issue or problem or they're being impacted negatively in some way, then most people are predisposed to helping.
So if we work on that principle, then I'd hope that people's experience would be a positive one when they, they tell their manager that something is going on in their life. And, you know, in this scenario, it'll be menopause, but it could be other things, it could be a cancer diagnosis. You know, it could be that their, their relationship is breaking down, and it doesn't really matter what the thing is, but if, if you Approach the manager and and make them aware, then you're giving them an opportunity to help you.
If you never tell them they've there's no way of knowing that you need help. And so it does require courage on both sides, but some, you know, it has to start somewhere. Communication is so important.
Yeah, it is. Did you know the webinar that Virtual Veterinary Congress is back for 2024. Starting on the 5th of February, we have 10 hours of continuing education with speakers such as Sarah Heath, John Chisy, and Samantha Tayler, and many, many more.
We'd love to see you there. If you'd like to get involved again this year, or if you'd like to join us for the day next time, please click the link in the description below to find out more. Brilliant.
And have you got any experiences that you'd be willing to share where you've maybe witnessed a positive impact of a male colleague, you know, in. Yeah, I mean I can only speak to my own experience, so this colleague I was referring to earlier, I have a, I had somebody in my team who was brilliant, really, just if you could clone this person and have everybody like them, it would have been a lot better. But she, she came to me and asked me if she could have a word.
We went into a little meeting room and sat down and she got quite teary and she said I've got something I need to tell you, . And so she, she told me, she said, look, I've, I've been experiencing these different feelings and, and things and I've been to my GP and my GP is very suspicious that I'm, I'm starting to have menopause or go through the menopause and . So she talked about for a long time about how it was affecting her and what the GP wanted to do, so the GP was organising a series of tests to try and confirm because this colleague was probably younger than typically people would start menopause, .
So she spoke for quite a long time. She spoke for about 25 minutes or so, and then I, I only said two things to start with. I said, thank you so much for sharing it with me.
And is there anything I can do to help you now? Mhm. I said a tiny bit more, but actually afterwards I I counted how many words I said and I said 88 words, which is about 30 seconds worth of speech, which is practically nothing.
So in that initial conversation, or interaction, I did. If you looked at it externally, the square root of nothing really other than sit there and listen. But that, that I could see, you could see as my colleague was walking out of the room, like you could see the weight was just off her shoulders.
The fact that she's she'd been able to tell somebody and there was no judgement, there was no negative comments, there was no nothing. Whatever worries she might have had, it, it didn't exist because it was a pleasant conversation and hopefully a pleasant experience for her. And then, a couple of weeks later, we agreed that we would catch up specifically about this every two weeks or so.
OK, brilliant. She wasn't really sure what would help her when I asked what would help. I said, well, why don't you go away and think about it or think about the work you're doing now and are there things that you feel Your menopause is impacting on, on your experience of work and if there is, then tell me and we can try and work out between us.
So she did, she came back and She finds. Or her experience was that in the mornings she just couldn't concentrate. OK.
Mhm. And that that was one of the things that triggered you to go to the doctor that she was incredibly forgetful in the morning and she really couldn't focus on tasks in the morning. So a very simple thing that we decided was that she could start a bit later.
So most people in our team start around 8 o'clock in the morning and we just changed it and she'd start at 10 and that that certainly she felt. Better, I don't know if it made any impact, but the fact that we were willing to go, well, we can totally. Change what the early part of the morning looks like and the simplest thing we can do is just have a later start point.
And again, I think that that idea that it wasn't a struggle or a fight or a big argument. It was a really simple, this is how it's affected me. Can we change what I'm doing?
It's like yeah we can totally do that. Yeah, that's brilliant, because as you say like when with a topic like this, you know, the menopause is still such a taboo, it's so difficult to have these conversations and the fact that you didn't actually have to say anything because some people do tend to like. Over talk and overshare in those situations, so that's really great advice.
Yeah, yeah, and like the worst thing you could do is try and say oh I understand what you're going through because my mum went through like a couple of years ago, like that that's not gonna help this. It, it might help you. Because you have some perspective on the impact menopause has on a woman that you know very well, so that that's a probably a good thing.
But yeah, I think, it, it can be a real struggle if you're a manager because you just want to fix problems. But actually allowing somebody to speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and then when they've kind of spoken it all out, then, then you can. Then you can say something, but what you got to try and do is have the discipline to say very little to start off with, .
Yeah, brilliant, and then just bringing, you know, having that flexibility like you did. You know, with the, with the shift start. Do you think if looking further ahead, Bob, do you think if we did support veterinary teams in the future more with the menopause, and it does feel like we're definitely talking about it a lot more now in the veterinary profession, which is brilliant, but do you think less people would be leaving the profession?
I do, I do. I mean, I think, yes, I think, I think the, this, how you could support, people who are going through menopause, if, if you could do that at scale across the business and do it really, really well, then you would be able to support any people related situation. OK.
You'd have the right building blocks, you'd have the right approach that you can support any kind of issue. That people experience in their lives, whether it's in work or out of work, and, and they bring it to work. OK.
So because you have the right kind of culture, one that's, supportive, one that tries to understand where people are coming from, and then collaborates with them to work out a solution that is, that will work for both sides. So if we could create a kind of a UK wide global veterinary culture that was people focused. It's starting point was, I want to understand your perspective.
And then my default is going to be, not no, but I'm going, my default is going to be, I will work with you to see if we can make that happen. Then that would be a brilliant thing, and it would definitely make the veterinary employment dynamic one that's more geared towards people staying and for employers to retain people rather than where we are now, where it feels like people. Leave, and they leave not because they want to leave, but because they feel they often maybe have no choice but to leave.
And if we could undo that feeling, and we could use menopause as one of the vehicles to undo that feeling, that would be a brilliant thing. Absolutely, cause women are working longer and longer, aren't they, than ever before, and this impacts so many people. I think it's 1 in 10 women leave work every year because of the menopause, which is just insane.
And you know, if you think of the kind of demographic of, of the veterinary profession, so for vets under the age of 45, 70% or 75% are female, veterinary nurses. 96 or 97% of veterinary nurses are female and probably a similar proportion of receptionists are female, so. The vast majority of people that work in veterinary are female.
Therefore, we'd be, it'd be lunacy not to try and work, to improve our approach to this specifically, but, but this would be a brilliant. Way of learning how to just support people in work, whatever their circumstances were, which would be a good thing. Absolutely brilliant.
And just finally, I know we're getting close to time now Rob, but are there any if there's any like sort of men listening at the moment and they're looking for advice on where and to start with understanding the menopause, do you have any tips from your experience or anything that you've like read or found really useful that you'd like to share? I think The the place I would go to, Because it's veterinary. I'd go to the British Veterinary Association menopause.
You don't have to be a member to look at their menopause help, but it's got, it's got everything you could probably want to know about menopause. There's lots of video resources, quite short videos. There's some articles of people explaining how they've approached menopause in their practise, or, or people sharing their experience, and then there's lots of links to each other.
So I think it's a one stop. Shop that is contextualised a little bit to the veterinary setting, then that's an amazing resource that those guys have put together and, and it's a freely available thing on the website. You don't have to be a memory to get the bulk of the content.
It's just there, . That's probably what I would do cause it's, it's simple to access and it's, it's easy to understand in the way that it's explained. Fantastic.
Brilliant. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you.
Any final points that you'd like to share with our listeners today that we might not have covered? I suppose the thing I would say is that, Things like this where a person comes to you and they tell you something and you, you kind of feel overwhelmed. It's never as big or as bad as you think it is.
And you can break it down into little steps. So the first step is listening and then the second step is working out how can I support the person. But if you chunk it and think I don't have to have all the answers now, I can listen now and then come back.
With a better understanding in a couple of days or in a week that you don't have to know everything to start off with. It's never as difficult as you think it's going to be. Would probably be my, from the manager trying to support the person perspective and and similarly from the, the person who feels they need to make their manager aware.
Just make them aware. Cause they'll surprise you and, and their willingness to help you. Brilliant, that's great advice, Rob.
Thank you so much and as I said at the start, you know, really appreciate you coming on and talking to us about this, so thank you so much. Thanks for having me. OK, take care, bye.
