Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of Vet Chat, and today we are going to be looking at a topic that is probably, I dare say, a little divisive across the whole veterinary profession and perhaps even the world in 2020, and that's looking at the topic of leadership. Now. Some of us might well perceive that things have been led well and led poorly in various avenues in life in 2020, and of course everybody is entitled to their own opinion on that.

And I'm delighted to be joined by not just a professional colleague, but someone who's become a great friend over the years, Lyn McKeon, who is. A NLP expert. Now for those of you that don't know what NLP is, it's neurolinguistic programming.

Now, as best as I understand it, that doesn't mean that by having a conversation with Lynn, she's going to turn me into a robot and use a certain trigger word that will set me off to do whatever her bidding is. But she is one of the foremost people in the profession who's been really. Deeply embedded and involved at a corporate level and now on an independent and and sort of freelance level, looking at how to help leaders in veterinary practise and of course with the challenging year that we've had, Leadership is something that is, is often given lip service, but never really, given this true attention to detail to upskill people in the profession as to how to lead, but also how to be led.

And I think for me it is such a fascinating topic and we're seeing great leaps and bounds by areas of the profession involved in leadership, but also, Perhaps voids where things aren't done particularly well. So Lynn, awesome to chat. I know that anyone that has seen you and I chatting know that this podcast could well go on for several hours, but we're gonna try and keep it short and keep it, keep it to the point.

Why does leadership interest you? Well, thank you Ben, for having me on, and yeah, I think you're right, we could have this topic over the rest of the day rather than just the next 40 minutes or hour, so thank you very much for the introduction and how can I explain how leadership has, I guess excited me and how I'm so passionate about what it is, that I do. It's probably started at the time whenever I took my year out from university because I really wasn't sure what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I went to Aer Lingus and I worked there, and a lot of my memory of how I started in that company was great, inspirational, there was a lot of structure, it was all about the people that joined the company throughout that induction.

And as I took my year or two out and learned about the art and science of communication and managing people and training, and then did my HR degree and moved into an HR role, that's where the art of understanding people and the dynamics of teams and the impact opportunity and change has on teams really, really resonated with me and allowed me to get. More passionate about it, people and their purpose, and it gave me a lot of insight as to what makes me tick, what makes others tick, and whenever you're able to be authentic in yourself and in your style and really understand people and bring them with you, then you can lead well during normal times, and then you can lead. Well during challenging times, but it's getting those strong foundations first is the most important part and really being really very self aware and building your your skills to leading yourself to be able to lead others.

And obviously, you know, you've got involved in this sphere, you've had that experience from Aer Lingus, you've taken that on in into helping practises through your role in Zoettis and then obviously latterly since setting up on your own, and offering an independent consultancy, but. Obviously there's a big jump between conversations about leadership with people and saying like, you know, like you can do this and you can do that and becoming very much an expert on, on neurolinguistic programming. Now for me, I hear the phrase neurolinguistic programming or someone drops into a sentence, oh, you know, I do this with NLP, and it flies over my head, because it's kind of like what the hell is this?

So, for anyone who hasn't come across it, what is NLP? OK, so, I'm going to try my best to explain this in a couple of sentences and then you can ask me some more questions, Ben, and it'll start to come to life as we go through. My way of explaining NLP is that it is the most amazing array of business tools and techniques that really helps you to problem solve.

So when you take that in itself, If you're a business owner or a leader or an individual, we face issues and problems day to day, whether it's just what we're dealing with in the household, in a family, or what we're dealing with as a leader as we're trying to bring a team with us, or as we face certainly what we're going through at the moment is change is enforced upon us and we are seeking how do we keep a business going, how do we look after our people. These are all problems, so you can apply. NLP to the way that you problem solve.

So if I take NLP as the three words of neurolinguistic programming. And you look at neuro is how you think, linguistic is how you communicate to yourself or how you communicate the language you choose to use with others, and the programming is how you behave. And if you start to understand the neuroscience, the psychology, the philosophy of how you think, communicate and act or behave, then you start to notice what your own habitual patterns are.

As you start to do that, you make some modifications and you become more effective. As you start to notice patterns in other people and how they think, how they talk to you, and how they interact or behave, you can start to get curious and ask them questions to start helping them to become more effective as well. So I'm not sure if that helps understand the concept of NLP because it's such a large field and it is used for different things you've ever seen from how Tony Robbins does it to health.

Solutions and techniques to, I use it a lot in business for leaders to help them work through issues in business standing in their way, their limiting beliefs, what they would like to have happen, and I also use it for individuals who are going through a tough time, and I know the techniques to pull in to help them with anxiety, panic attacks, . Depression, any of those things which I'm seeing quite a lot of at the minute, so I really use the tools to flex depending on the business team I'm working with or the individuals. It's interesting, isn't it, because obviously, you know, one thing that 2020 has very, very much highlighted is, and, and, and I dare say even heightened, is the levels of anxiety, stress and depression across the society.

And, and from our point of view, very focally looking at the veterinary profession, you know, we were aware of these problems, prior to, to COVID-19, but of course, you know, teams have been under infinitely more stress since then, and actually, not just from, you know, either, you know, corporate bodies or, or, or practise owners and that, you know, really concerned and understandably for the survival of individual practises, but also from the pet owners who have actually been. Sort of removed, in many cases from that process of veterinary engagement where, you know, they're not physically in the consult, so it's a bit of a, OK, here's, here's what's going on, you deal with the case, come back and then someone relays the message and it's, you know, it creates another barrier, in practise, but from a, from a practise point of view, what in your mind have have leaders done? Well and poorly over 2020 from a from a practise point of view.

Oh, this, this, this is a mixed bag. From my perspective, as I think of some of the clients that I'm working with, there's both ends of the spectrum, there's those that are doing, there's those that are doing OK from a productivity, from a pet ownership, from a performance point of view, however, their teams are struggling. There are those that have teams that are maybe split into different teams to be able to work a rota in in different blocks of people.

And those people are working very, very hard and they're working intensely and constantly, and it's having the opportunity to step in to offer them a voice and support and see that the system is working and actually how is their psychological health and fitness. And then there are those where some have been furloughed and. I have been off work and returning to work, so there's a mixture of what the dynamic shift is there, not only are pet owners removed, but also so are some of the employees.

Some are starting to come back, actually most of them are back at this stage. And that returning back into work, it's a little bit like the work that I would have done with people that would have been on maternity leave or long-term sick leave. There is a a discombobulating feeling because you've been off for so long, you come back to be sometimes assumed that you can just hit the ground running, step back into it, and yet the individual as they think and communicate to themselves and fill themselves with.

Am I still able to do the job that I left, Is it still the same? Actually, I've so many other things in my life now, I'm now wondering what's important, and they've spent some time reflecting and this is exactly the same process and conversation I'll have with people that have been off on furlough coming back to a new team dynamic, and things have changed and what I noticed the leaders and practise owners, practise managers are doing is, They're taking that time to allow a team to come together and meet them where they are first, and that's a huge philosophy, a huge thing of mine in terms of, NLP is very much about, and good leadership is very much about consciously being aware and meeting people where they are first. And as you understand that, then you can match them, you can pace with them, and then you can lead forward with their involvement with their voice.

So some of the practises have taken that time to bring teams together and inquire, ask, get them to represent it in a. In an object or in a picture about what it's been like for them, and we talk in stories all the time. We've already had a number of stories before we started this, and we give words to the things that we experience to give them stories to give it meaning.

And once you start to allow individuals within a team to start giving it meaning and metaphorically describe what it's been like for them, what I notice as I facilitate some of those meetings is. Often what the leaders are going through is also very similar to what individuals are going through, because if we take what this pandemic in particular has has raised to the surface. We've had guidelines to adhere to, so everyone, whether you're a leader, managing people, or whether you're one of the team.

You've had isolation, you've had concern about people, you've had false starts, things that you hoped would have happened that haven't have happened. There's been disruption, and the list can go on, and that starts to mean that a lot of our needs haven't been met, and that can bring with it. That feeling of uncertainty and uneasiness and fear, and what does the future hold and anxiety, and that's whenever it starts to to manifest itself.

So bringing the team together to allow sometimes people to just realise, ah, I didn't realise someone else was going through that, and now they've explained that that makes sense why they might have behaved that way. And for leaders or practise managers, owners to be able to say, this is how I've been experiencing things, it's actually a really good time to pause and reset, and it's only then when you allow all of that to happen, can you really authentically and engagingly and meaningfully reorientate the team to to take them forward. And I, I do that as part part of practise because I see that it works and.

It makes me think of something that was maybe published around April time, May time from the Harvard Business Review, you might have seen this where they spoke about the three phases of crisis management, which was emergency, regression, and recovery. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, those three phases.

So whenever we know we went into first time lockdown and it was emergency where everyone was all fist to the pump, action stations, decisions happened a lot quicker, teams worked really well together, we had stuff to do, that purpose was almost palpable. We move into regression and that's when that uncertainty and what I was describing starts to creep in. People might get a bit irritable, it starts to make people question and reflect on what's it all about, what, when is there going to be a change again that it's more hopeful, and that really is that uneasy sense of feeling, and then we move into recovery, which is that reorientating, re-pivoting ourselves and actually facing the future to plan and make things happen and move forward.

And one of the things I'm noticing that the. The leaders in the teams who are able to just slowly help their people from a well-being resilience point of view and slowly think of how do we move forward. They're, we're putting in another step which is between that regression and recovery, which is that reset, and that's that point where I was describing.

A pause to allow that voice to meet people where they are now and actually transition with stronger foundations so that you can engage and move forward. So that reset and that authentic leadership and bringing teams together to share that experience to then know our purpose in veterinary, you know, often our purpose in life and in businesses, it doesn't change, but when that's front of mind again and you take people through the journey of. What's important to us now, how do we see ourselves as now, what the clients need from us now, what do you need from me as a, as a leader now, all of that starts to create far more meaningful.

Values or descriptions that are emotive, however, they're far more meaningful and engaging and the teams involved to actually allow that to happen, which is what it's all about, is creating a, a good place to work, a place that people want to belong. And that's it, isn't it, you know, there's, there's, you know, I, I think of practises local to me. And there's practises that have a great reputation, practises that have awful reputations.

And then there's a lot of practises that are in the middle ground that actually you don't really hear much about their reputation because they're sort of, you know, they're neither brilliant nor are they a bad places to work. But of course one of the interesting things that you touched on there was the fact that. Actually, you know, there's, there's the two sides of the same coin.

There's the leader and there's, there's the those that are employed and being led. But also that you often act as an as an intermediary in that side of things, and that's something that I think, you know, we've potentially been slow to adopt as a profession to, you know, look outside for, for help with stuff, you know, where I I dare say, you know, until recent times we've been a very, very sort of inward facing profession where you know, we look to others. Elements of the veterinary profession to help us, but actually, if you look at the evolution of of of leadership in the profession over the last few years, there's been huge leaps and bounds forward, you know, you've got organisations like SIs who've produced, you know, ILM, training courses, and there's this real investment from, from corporate structure, because actually, you know, the people potentially leading the practise aren't necessarily.

The practise owner, but they're responsible for the well-being of that practise, and, and it's, it's staff and tell that. But what does, what does your role as an intermediary, how, how does that work? Because of course, you know, we're used to having, or well, I don't know where the practises are.

There's one to ones, there's, you know, there's all of these different ways of, of having more regular interface between leadership and employees. To, to minimise any any pressure points, but, but where does, where does your role fit into that? Mhm.

I think at this point it's, it's, it's probably benefited me with the the role I had in Zoettas as a business consultant because very much part of that consultancy into practises was led by, Account managers hearing and really listening and understanding with the leadership team or practise manager or head nurse about what the issues were that a business faced, and that often then allowed that trusted relationship to come to me and then I was able to step in to see could I help, how could I help, what was it they really needed to have happen, and then start to put together some Outcomes and agree those and then work through a programme with practises. So with that, with the number of years that I did that, and of course as I chose to go to full time self-employment then at the start of this year, a lot of those practises that I've worked with, I have retained and I still offer my service as a consultant and as a coach, and they've experienced, I guess that. A person from the outside coming in, and I suppose I see myself in that role stepping into their practise as the voice of making a difference, which is often what the leaders want, what the practise managers want, and what the, the kind of key people want.

So I'll often meet with them first and very clearly define what it is they're wanting to have happen, and then I'll help them make it happen, and I have a style I guess, as you know with . The experience I've had so far and then the NLP side of communication and coaching that really brings people with me so that there's a very safe and progressive path that people will go on and of course, as I look at their business, I'm also looking at how is any of the work that we're going to do going to affect client retention or the way the team feel and then finding the joy. Or even their career progression as they can move through career paths in an organisation to be able to be feeling valued and respected and stay in the profession and keep developing and have personal growth.

So I will be looking at all of those normal parameters in business around staff, leadership, marketing, client and finance and how is how is the business health performing. There's some new clients I've, I've acquired since going full-time, self-employed, and interestingly, they are some of the leaders that have come to say, how, how does it work? They're also the leaders that are bravely saying, I've been working constantly for the last 5 or 6 months, this is tough going.

I'm finding actually quite a lonely place, even though they've maybe 2 or 3 other directors, they all are working together, but actually they're not working together anymore because they're all working on what needs to be done because this is still quite a reactive stage. So that chance where we would have probably got together to be able to do a little bit of strategy and what improvements can we make in a business has slightly shifted at the moment. However, it's those leaders that are coming to say, I'm finding things quite tough at the minute.

I use that phrase, you know, we are leading ourselves first, and when we're starting to be aware that things are fragmenting a little bit in the team or our business or in sales, then back to the airline analogies again, Ben, you're putting on your own oxygen mask first before you can continue making. Decisions and helping others. And sometimes that is a 1 to 1 with a leadership team or on a 1 to 1 with one leader around helping them take the strategies that still work for them and adding more strategies into helping improve the quality of their thinking.

So that they can return to making the decisions that they're already good at, they've just got lost a little bit in the weeds, and once the decision making starts to happen, then the structure of a programme might come out of that, or the the tools that they've been taught by me as we go through a programme is what then they know they have the skill, the capability and the time to be able to do in practise. Often in practise time is the thing, they know how to do it, they know what they want to have happen, . Like these are great folk, and often I'm coming in to be their voice when they're not able to be able to do it all, and then I bring my set of skills which is that blend of HR, NLP, and my my passion for really working with people to get their, their passion lit and their purpose aligned again, and that they're doing what they really want to do.

And sometimes that is staying in the business and sometimes it's having an action plan and making decisions to. Find what it is that they really want to do and move somewhere else, and that's OK too, so it's a blend of working 1 to 1, it's a blend of facilitating some of those leadership meetings when the leaders are tired. It's also then a programme around conscious leadership and being able to teach some of the skills on top of the strengths that they already have, so it's very bespoke as I step into any of those programmes with people.

And those then want to really get into the neuroscience and the psychology because they see how this stuff works, then they can, they can, they can work through a programme to have the qualification if that's important to them, but it all comes back to what people want to have happen, what people personally want, and And making a plan to make it happen. One of the things that is very easy to lose sight of is, is that, you know. Not all leaders have it together.

And invariably, we find ourselves in that strange position, whereas vets we're used to being the ones who people come to for an answer, and we ask owners to trust us as an expert. We're, we're perhaps not brilliant at trusting others to have the best interests for us, our practises, our businesses and our teams. At our heart, and for anyone in leadership who's maybe a little bit reticent to to let go of the reins a little bit and say look, you know, actually this is, this is my ship, I'm, I'm, I'm in charge here.

What, what would you say to those people in terms of, you know, the value of, of, of NLP and the value of, of sort of neutral insight on leadership potentially? So a couple of things there. I, I totally get it from a couple of perspectives in terms of when You own or you step into owning and leading a business.

And it's a huge responsibility, so being really involved and having good control and holding the reins quite tight. That's one of the, the values that they have in terms of things go well when I know what's going on and I'm able to make decisions and you know, we are all over it. And I, I understand that from a couple of perspectives because having, Been brought up in a veterinary practise where my, my dad was one of the partners, I could see how much he worked and I could also see the fulfilment, the frustrations, the highs, the lows of being very involved in all of that, and it is a hard step to step to the sidelines rather than stepping back.

I always frame it that way that you're just stepping to the sidelines to oversee some of the stuff but are still very much involved. What I do see is so important is that structure that Where there is purpose, that's very much the narrative and the core story of that leader and the business and the shape of it, what it's about, the why, and whenever there's that structure that comes from the leadership team and that's shared with the rest of the people in the business, that's whenever you really are wanting to get to the heart of it all in terms of. What's the values on the reputation of the business, and then what's the values of the individuals so that there's some kind of alignment about what's important to me, what's important to my colleague, what's important to my my my vet, my nursing team, my reception team so that you can really boil that up and then decide and agree.

Once we've sight of the purpose and we have a shared purpose, that leads to better connection. And whenever we are then getting into what's important to each one of us as we do our job and what that means and what it looks like day to day, that should be very visible. Those are indicators that you should be able to look at people as they interact with, customers as they interact with each other, that they are living those values.

They're behaving in that way. And that allows the whole team to come so much closer together. So sometimes that's what helps whenever you apply that structure and you really get to the heart of people's values and beliefs around what's important as they work together as a team, what's important to us as we deliver the service to our pet owners, what's important to us as we have leadership meetings and communication.

And that all starts to create systems and structure, then that really allows, Business leaders to take a breath out and realise that the business can carry on because there's strong foundations in place. Everyone knows how they're contributing, how they're adding value, how they make such a massive impact, and they can carry on doing their role. That's what we've recruited them for, that's what we pay them for, that's what we want to make sure they have a place that they feel belonging and meaning to.

So allowing them that autonomy to get on with things is also. It's a step change, I know that, however, it's a good thing to allow that to happen to ensure that you personally and professionally develop people and allow them to grow and then stay in the business. Stepping back from it then as a leader.

I sometimes scratch that surface a little bit more to figure out what is it you would really love to have happen, and often it is, I would like to. Step to the side and allow things to happen, because I have other things I want to think about and often a lot of the leaders are already thinking about. Maybe other innovative ideas or how else they can change shift the way the practise runs, and they need that thinking space, they need that time out of the day to day grind to be able to have just that mental capacity to mu things over, to problems solve at a different level, to come up with the idea to start the creation of that, because then they'll want to go back to their team and go, here's the concept.

What do you think and how do we bring it all together and then and involve everybody. So often sometimes that's the motivator, once they can get in underneath the surface to realise, OK, so if we need these kind of things to happen and you have a vision for that or something else, how, how do you fit that into your day or your Week, and that's where I realise and they realise also what's holding them back, and that's where I will use a lot of my skill around their mindset to help shine a light on that, to step to the side to allow space for that to happen, and then we put that in place from a very personal leadership perspective. And often those that I've worked with that have allowed that to happen, that's when the magic happens.

They all of a sudden have fill their time with other things, they don't have free time, but they fill their time with other things that are important to them now, and they have ensured there's someone or they've done it themselves to put the, the purpose, the story, the values around the, the business that they want to keep thriving and succeeding, and allow the team to to really get involved and play a big part in that. I think that's, that's one of the big things, isn't it, where communication forms such a huge element of life in practise, and I, I can certainly think of a few examples of different roles where I've been in and the bosses aren't necessarily there on the front line. And of course when you're a younger vet.

Or you're a younger nurse or you know, you're somebody in management and you see the boss disappearing off, you just thought, oh it's alright for some isn't it, you're disappearing off and having a lovely time, what is it, off to lunch, a nice little beer in the pub, is it? But, but actually, If you're open and communicating with your team about the stuff that you're doing and and more importantly how you see that benefiting not just the business but also them, there's this huge shift in in perception from employees. Personally, that's my view, to say, well actually, do you know what, actually my boss is going away and investing in other areas that can make my life easier.

And I think, you know, I remember being in, in one job. Up in Newcastle and the bosses were constantly going and doing different bits and bobs and stuff like that, and, and again I was potentially a little bit older then I think I was about 7 or 8 years qualified. And you, you get a little bit more of an insight as to, OK, I see why you're doing that, and I see the investment, that you're making in the practise, because actually the, Processes, the methods, the employees that you're bringing in are all on the basis of making it easier for, for everybody else, but how do, How is it best for bosses to, to look to empower their, their employees and to say, look, you know, yes, we're not on the front line, but what's the best way of them communicating that to a team?

It is very much as you say, you know, if open and honesty is one of the values that's important amongst the team, well, how does that turn up from the start of the day to the end of the day? How does that happen and what would I see or hear or notice about people at every juncture of coming into work every step along the way of a client journey, when we have our team meetings, so that there is exactly that communication is, is happening. When we don't have communication, we make it up.

That's what happens in our minds. When there's a gap, when there's silence, we'll decide to fill the gap and we'll create a story in there instead, and I often do an exercise with people about . You know, not putting speech bubbles above people's heads and and assuming or figuring out what it is that they're doing without knowing and asking what what's going on.

So again it's, it really does for me coming back to if I think of some new startups or some of the younger teams that have come together, perhaps a a person has decided to set up a new practise and brought a team with them. That's a very, a much easier place to start with because you're really bringing a team and starting to talk about what's this business going to be like in this community, how do we want it to be, how do we want clients to see us, why do we want them to describe us, how do we want Each other to feel when we work together, so you start to really pull that apart and I suppose that's what I suggest is, is mandatory in any business, and that's what I've done over the last number of years in veterinary practise to make sure that all of that is talked about and any. Communication is happening, so therefore there's less of You're just opening perspectives, and there's a better understanding of what everyone is thinking and why people do what they do.

So opening perspectives and really shifting that quality of thinking is is one thing, and that's what allows that to happen whenever you work through what kind of business do we want to be and what's important to us as we work together. It allows people to have a language then that they can speak around, well, if we want to be supportive, open and honest, passionate about what we do and Be doing the right thing, then that can turn up different ways. Doing the right thing has a whole load of things around ethics and clinically what doing the right thing means to people.

Doing the right thing is about treatment of people, you know, how, how people put people first. Being supportive, you know, you can start to list a number of things of what it means to every one of us when we say being supportive is important to us as a team. How, how exactly, how specifically, tell me more, how, how, how, and the questions keep coming from me to be able to create what that looks like.

I move that in often to. The conversations that happen between whoever manages or whoever is leading those individuals so that they can talk about how they develop those attitudes or those values even more. And it also becomes the language about when sometimes that's hard to do what's happening or it was a busier day, we're under more pressure and some of the other behaviours start to come out.

So it falls into those conversations that become clearer, more open and communication, more developmental and power. Of people's development and part of a performance management process, and I mean that in the sense of positive conversations of structure, roles, what's important to us as we work together, how will we do it. When something's a little bit off kilter, it's an easy open conversation to be able to have that, and that starts to happen across colleagues rather than just from peer to, employees or from the boss to employees.

So. That's where you can get a real sense of the vibe in the place, the culture that it's very hard to grab hold of, but you're creating all the time. And it's only through those conversations that that happens really.

Something you touched on a bit earlier was, you know, the, the fact that, you know, there's there's practises that are starting to, to form. And certainly, you know, from the outside, looking at the profession, there is this new age, renaissance in the independent practise over recent months and years, and certainly, you know, I know of 10 to 12 practises that have opened up in the last 12 months. And, and people who've maybe sort of said, OK, well, you know, this is the avenue that my, my life is possibly going down.

Not, not really keen on that, I'm gonna set up on my own, and obviously from their side of things, that's a great opportunity. Career wise and business wise, but there's also a real opportunity to embed, A certain approach. To practise and you know, people nowadays are savvy, employees have expectations, so, it obviously makes sense to have a, you know, a leadership structure in place.

Before starting, so that, you know, on day one of opening the doors, and it might be that they're the only vet in the practise at that stage, but the intention will be of course in months and years ahead that they expand that business, and they of course they have nurses, they have reception teams, they potentially have practise managers to look at managing as well. So what sort of framework would you look at advising people to instil if they're either, you know, in the process of starting up, they've recently started up, or, or are contemplating it in future? There is the Business planning structure in terms of The area you're setting up in, what your expectation is is that new owner or that leader in the new business, so everything from your, your finances through to your demographics to your client expectations and numbers, all of those types of things is is one side of that, so all of the business planning.

And that's very much just with the leadership team. Also, where the leaders have to think about first is what is their core story, because that is their brand. And if they can articulate that and get very, very clear on not their personal purpose, but as a collective, if there's a few of them setting up a business, or if it's one person, what's their purpose in their community in terms of what it is that they do and how that fits in with the bigger picture.

So that should be their. The Simon Sinek kind of reason Detra, you're why as a as a veterinary practise in this community, how does everything I do and the way that I do it fit in with a bigger picture, how does it make a difference. So once that narrative is really crystal clear, everything starts to hang off that, so I use a very Structured framework, and I ask lots of questions that probably people don't realise they are starting to slot their answers into a framework, and at the end the outcome is that they have a story that starts from This is our purpose, this is how we want to be seen by others in our community.

This is how I expect the roles to play out in my business. These are the things that are important to us as we do that. These are the skills and capabilities that are needed in this practise because of what we're going to offer and how we're going to offer it.

These are the services, the behaviours, the way we're going to do things. Our policies, our procedures, our way of working, our way of communicating, and this is where we are, so it's a very much a a why. Who you see yourself as, what's important to you, the skills that you have, the how and the where, so it's using all of those to be able to structure that, and I weave in probably a dozen questions at every level to allow that storyboard to be created and then it gets refined so that it can be really succinct and in a way.

It's, it's people's narrative to be able to speak about, to be able to talk about their business, it's the owners. Foundation to be able to describe what it's like to work here, what it's like to come here and use us as a client, and it's also core to the type of people you're going to recruit and be attracting into that, because who you resonate with is going to be who steps forward and says, I really like the sound of this. I love the fact that they described it that way.

These are the things that are important to them, that's important to me too. I want to find out if I could go and work there, so that becomes core to. How you recruit and what you're looking for in values based recruitment and the attitudes that you're hearing as well as the technical skills and the qualifications and the experience and expertise that you have.

It's also the structure of induction. What are those first few weeks like for any employee who joins a veterinary practise? And that's something I've I've done a lot of work on and I've devised and designed that for a number of practises because it's been there, sort of, but not really.

And yet that is the moment of truth to help someone really settle into a place of work, and I'm sure I know I've had that experience, good and bad, and I'm sure you have as well, many experiences. It's the one thing that I'll know and remember, the privilege of interviewing people through Aer Lingus days or self-employed or in Zoettas where I would have been, setting the structure of interviews for vet practises and promoting people based on more of a structure and what we were looking for. The privilege of interviewing people and having A real insight into their experience and their expertise and where they describe they add value and what their impact is, is amazing.

I love interviewing. I just find it just so fascinating to really hear what lights people up and know that they meet what we're looking for. So their needs are being met because they match our needs are being met and everything starts to fit in place, and that's how then you take someone in through your induction as well because they'll get that same.

Value led experience as well, so that that insight and then how a person joins a team and fits in with the dynamic of others, what's the common ground, the fact that there's a shared purpose already in place, the fact that there's similarities in what's important to everybody, and doing another refresh around values when new people join a team. That allows you to stay close to individuals, stay close to teams and help, help them get the best and potential out of their career, which helps you as a business leader to develop, have less staff retention issues. It's, it's hard work, I'm not say that it's easy, it takes, it takes a structure, it takes communication, you deal with a few speed bumps along the way because everybody has a story and has something that they want to kind of Talk about, you work through that, you have the right things in place and you have a very Growing leadership aptitude that you want to keep on adding to your repertoire of skills as a leader owning a business or as you help people lead themselves which are similar skills.

I think that's a really nice way to, to sum it up, is that, you know, it is hard work, reading is hard, there's no, there's no shortcut around it, but it's also incredibly wholesome. And I think, you know, as a strong leader and as a resourceful leader and someone who, you know, is willing to, to engage with, with other leaders, you know, I think, you know, every leader. Should have a leader, ironically enough.

And I think, you know, that is one of the strongest things, but I think good leadership starts from that very first point of contact. And I think that is such a good way to summarise things is that it's, it, it's that very first point of contact when somebody says, right, I might be coming to this practise for a job through to the employment process, through to. Those early stages, so that actually, once that person's been there a year and a half, that they're almost indoctrinated sounds the wrong terminology, really, but they're just part of the overriding process of that business and that practise, so that it just feels normal to them.

It's much easier to. Have that relationship and shape that expectation on their part and on your part from the get-go, than try and bring in a whole load of changes to somebody who's been in a practise for 10 years. It's not to say that that's impossible, but it's significantly harder because opinions have been formed because experiences have been had, so it's much more difficult to break those down.

So starting on such a great bedrock is a great way for us to, to, you know. Ensure the future success of businesses and practises, and I think, you know, that is the perfect way to sum up this topic and say, look, you know, start strong, remain strong, and actually, that, that relationship will will blossom, and the business and the individuals will all benefit off the back of that. Yeah.

It's true, and the other thing remembering is that every one of us. Has a choice, and it is about figuring out what is it that you really want on that individual level, and you can put those things in place as the leader, you help attract the people that want to be there and they have a choice, and I think that's a really good mindset and attitude to have around even our own leadership flexibility rather than, you know, sometimes beating ourselves up. And then on the other side of that, there are perfect opportunities right now where teams have been Separate it in ways or teams have Taken on new, you know, additional responsibilities because they've maybe been taken on someone else's role for a little while, maybe someone has been in isolation, so that job has had to be shared out across a couple of people in a practise.

So the blurred lines have happened with what people used to do, and now what they've really stepped up to absolutely do because they they value those things as being important to get on with the job, to help out, I'll learn it, I'll do it absolutely. And they carry on, it's now is a really, really good time to allow that reset to happen and to explore with everyone in the team to define those values, and some of that you'll be surprised as I was last week, where we went through that exercise to see where were the blurred lines, so that we could help everyone figure out what it was that they wanted, and that's not being led the other way round, it's a collaborative conversation. To then realise some people did other jobs during these last few months that they've realised they didn't think they would ever get to do, but they really love doing it and they've enjoyed it and they want to do that a wee bit more.

So we've done a little bit of a restructuring as a trial to see what fits what works, which has allowed just change to happen, which is quite refreshing as well and needs just facilitated and managed. However, that's actually really important to some individuals where we can more restructure roles. They get fulfilment and their needs met.

The business still has absolutely its boundaries in terms of what it needs. That's, that's the first conversation always, and then you're bringing in the team once you've your clarity, and then the third thing is, When you move into leadership or owning a business. Who do you have to, to confide in, to talk through, to shoot the breeze with?

Sometimes it's a forum, sometimes it's another colleague who has a a business down the road or in another town or in another city. If you don't have that network, get that network, because that is vitally important to, to support, to growth, to to be able to share some of the the issues, the challenges that you're facing. And if not, get a confidant and a coach that actually you can come off the pitch every so often onto the sidelines and say, here I'm trying to deal with this, I'm thinking of doing it this way, or here's my idea, what do you think?

A really good coach will challenge you with lots of questions and will work through your decision matrix to help you get where you want to get to. And that's what I'm finding that some maybe don't want to vocalise that they are being coached, however, they see the value in it now where having a confidant to help improve their quality of thinking, their decision making, their collaborative style, to stretch some of their attitudes and ways of working is what's allowing them to. Stay above the line and still progress with themselves and with the business, and that's really important and really vital in many cases, more so now than ever before.

Mm. I think that's just a great way to, to wrap things up and to sort of say look, you know, it is, it's, it's about. Investing in your business, but also investing in yourself, and I think, you know, that is crucial, irrespective of whatever stage of your career at, whether you're a new graduate, whether you've been qualified 40 years, you know, having that external help is vital to all of us, if nothing else, to hold us accountable, and, and that accountability will hold us on a straight and narrow, and I think that is something that is, Useful for everybody to have, and potentially avoid a car crash in leadership.

So Lynn, it is great to chat. As I said earlier, I know me and you could literally wax lyrical about, you know, this for for hours and hours. And who knows, maybe we'll have more chats about this in the future, if it's something people want to listen to, but thank you for everything you're doing for the practises, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the er er the fruits of your labours.

Thank you so much, Ben, thanks a lot. Cheers.