Hello. It's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinar vet welcoming you to another vet. Chat podcast.
I'm really pleased today to have Hannah Messer on the, podcast with me who I met at the recent Guinea Pig Welfare Foundation forum, which was, excellent. In Birmingham. We got chatting, as always, interesting people in the room, and I sat next to Hannah and Hannah is a RVN.
She works in education, and she also runs a rescue. And I, I think you've just kind of added to that by, Just having a four. Well, a a young baby, four months old, So I mean, it sounds like we could still pile a few more things on you because you're probably quite quiet, aren't you?
Yeah, I've got loads of spare time, but I really appreciate you coming on because I know you're busy, Hannah. Just, maybe to fill in for people who who obviously don't know who you are, tell us a little bit about you and then I I know we've got quite a well, quite a few things that I'd like to chat to you about. So, but but first of all, give us a little intro to yourself.
So, as I said at the welfare forum, I'm here in three capacities, originally trained as an RVN. That was after doing a degree in bio veterinary science. I decided that my interests lied within veterinary medicine and then stayed in small animal practise for four or five years and then decided to diversify into education.
I now teach FE level, so 16 plus animal management. And then in 2020 I also decided to open a guinea pig rescue when I identified that A I love them. And B, we needed more rescues.
And I think we just need more education as well, don't we? That was certainly a, One of the things that came back very strongly from the forum was that the general public aren't as educated as they should be. But even vets and nurses need to know more as well, don't they?
Yeah, I think that was sort of the main thing that that got me into. It was I love educating people. And I always enjoyed that part of being in practise and doing running, consults and talking to clients.
And then obviously going into teaching in a college as well that I kind of had had those abilities, and wanted to kind of do a bit of good with it. But there's definitely a huge gap in the knowledge, like you say, not only of the general public, but also I think of, of veterinary profession as well, just because of potentially gaps in training. Hm.
We can't teach everything in the degree, you know, for vets or vet nurses. And when I first qualified, you know, the the cat was, you know, we we we were being told it's not just a small dog. And I think similarly now, you know, guinea pigs and rabbits were not, having as much knowledge as we did of, you know, cats and dogs.
And and then also just getting people, I think to realise they're often seen as this ideal first pet for for Children. Whereas actually, you probably need to have a lot more knowledge to look after them well than you would, for example, to to own a cat, wouldn't you? Yeah, I think potentially because they are prey species or potentially, because we've historically classed them as exotic pets.
We don't know as much about them. So they are generally like you say, I would argue potentially more difficult to keep happily and keep well than, say, a cat or a dog. We'll come back to guinea pigs.
But you know, I'm fascinated because I know there's a lot of changes going on in further education. Obviously, we've got the T level, qualifications, which is a more technical sort of apprenticeship type level. And I know you've been teaching at that level, but part of I and is this a a sort of good progression into vet Nursing is that Is there a path through the T level to get into vet nursing?
How does that work? So at the moment, we don't know a lot about T levels just because, I mean, my college hasn't actually started teaching them yet. We're kind of in the process of setting them up.
Some colleges have started, but again, we know very little about kind of how they're working at the moment with regards to the B tech, which has been what we've been teaching animal management wise for several years now. There are elements that incorporate nursing. So, for example, in the second year I teach a unit called Principles of Animal Nursing, So we do kind of very, very basic nursing skills.
Clinical studies case studies, that kind of thing. So it does allow students that have an interest in nursing to pursue that, but it's not a direct pathway. I do have some students that go on then to do degrees and diplomas, but I would say that there is still quite a big gap in terms of students that know they definitely want to be an RVN and not kind of knowing what course to do that's going to set them up the best possible way.
Because getting a practise based apprenticeship is just so difficult. Yeah. Is that your experience?
Because obviously one of our big things at Webinar vets is is how do we sort out this shortage of vets? And I think also nurses, you know, a five vet practise running on three vets. How can that run better?
We probably have a couple of extra nurses on and then also work in a more, you know, using digital tools for triage et cetera, et cetera. And you know, booking appointments and so on. The problem is, though, that I think there's certainly I think your experience is that practises are a bit reticent because it can seem to be over administrative and and difficult to have vet nurses in your practise.
And I know you know, going back 1015 years when I had my own practise, we always remained Nurse Training Centre, but a lot of practises pulled out because they felt it was too onerous. Where where are we at at the moment, as far as that goes, are we still having problems getting practises to actually take to take students in and qualify them to RN? Yeah, certainly.
In my experience, what you've just said is is fairly accurate. I think it's almost like a vicious cycle because we are understaffed in practise. So finding RVNS to work as clinical coaches to support these students is very difficult and thereby we don't have student nurses, so we don't produce our own nurses within practise.
So again, I think we kind of need to to approach this at its very core, supporting RVNS and vets that want to clinical coach. Nurses better, you know, offering additional pay, offering additional time put aside to allow them to do that extra job. I think that's where we're gonna potentially bridge this gap.
Yeah. No, that's really interesting because, you know, I know from the Webinar vet side, we have a lot of education for veterinary nurses. We also very much encourage veterinary nurses to look at the material that's on our site.
That, you could say was for GPS. Because actually, a nurse who's qualified 5 to 10 years will often know a huge amount about anaesthesia about radiology. And our training can very much support that as well.
Is there a tendency sometimes with some of the training post qualification that it it stays still a bit too basic? Or do you think that that is now being that gap has been filled with providers and so on? I think it's definitely improved, thanks to people like yourselves.
But I think historically there was kind of this understanding that nurses didn't need to know, You know, they don't need to know the ins and outs of anaesthesia. They don't need to, because it's not their job. But Actually, a lot of nurses go into that role because they have intense interest in those specific specialist subject areas.
So, you know, we should be supporting nurses, like you say, radiology. Ultrasound is a classic example. You know, that is something that, that nurses could be doing with adequate training.
And that again, there's kind of this gap that we don't utilise the RVN skills properly. We almost need a nurse practitioner kind of role that we see in human medicine. I would say nutrition behaviour.
You know, these are issues where people give up their dogs and cats because they haven't been adequately more more dogs and cats. Obviously, cats are probably a bit more difficult to train, but, you know, behaviour, nutrition These are all areas that I think, I I'm, you know, particularly anaesthetics, that most of the time the nurse is monitoring the anaesthetic while the vet's getting on and doing the piece of surgery. So it's it's massively important.
But obviously the problem is also from just the supply of bringing people in because it's, you know, it's a hugely satisfying career from my perspective. So it it's something we need to really look at and have that practises are willing to sort of take and put that time into, to train people up. Yeah, and retaining nurses as well, I think, is probably the, the next big the next big question.
We did a a podcast with Garth Jordan, who's the CEO of Aha, the American Animal Hospital Association. They did a great white paper called ST Please, and it was very much based around the whole veterinary team. But, you know, the first thing is having that positive culture in work, you know, being respectful and polite to everybody in the practise.
But then obviously also offering opportunities for training, you know, with good kit in the practise so that people can develop. If we put these sort of things in place, they're not. It's not rocket science, and it's not hugely difficult to make a veterinary practise a really great place to work in, is there?
No, I think like you said, it's it's all about getting that atmosphere and creating that supportive team and knowing that you've been listened to as well. I think you know, you go in and you say, right? I've got an area of interest here.
OK, let's run with that. You know, let's do something with that. And and that's I think gonna make all the difference to get in RV ns to stay within their roles and to progress.
Yeah, so I'd like to move on to guinea pigs. So where did this passion for guinea pigs come from? Well, I think I've always had it.
Probably, we had pigs as a child. No, I had hamsters. So this is this is where it gets interesting because there's literally, like, pictures in family photo albums of me about two years old, with my pride and joy.
Who was my little Syrian hamster at the time? And so I think I was always destined to be the crazy rodent lady. It just the rodents got a bit bigger as I got older.
So it was probably about maybe eight years ago, 78 years ago and decided I wanted to try keeping guinea pigs. I'd always had hamsters gonna try keeping guinea pigs, and then it just absolutely, like, skyrocketed from there. So obviously you you've got guinea pigs.
The next stage of graduation is presumably to go up to Beaver Rescue, isn't it? And be wild. And they're the biggest, aren't they?
But, you know, we don't have any. Well, we do have them, but in zoos and things I was very fortunate in the summer to go to, Greenford in London, where one of my friends, Sean McCormick, is released the first, beavers in the capital for 400 years. And we got to see them, which he hadn't seen them for months.
So I was really pleased to, to see them up close. And they are They are big the size of a cocker spaniel. So they're decent size critters.
Yeah, that is, that is my idea of a good day out. So because we're always trying to keep this very practical, what are the sort of 533 to 5 areas that you would say? We need to gain an understanding and and, you know, some quick and easy tips that immediately make us better vets and nurses when you know we're presented, with guinea pigs, or perhaps just giving advice.
I mean, the the the obvious one. I think that we were all told, you know, several years ago was guinea pigs and rabbits should be could be kept together, whereas actually, I think it's always best to stick with guinea pigs or rabbits, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.
Just stick with stick with your pigs on their own. There are multiple reasons to not house them together. Border teller being one of them, size difference and potential injuries and obviously nutritional differences as well.
So definitely don't Don't consider that I would say, in terms of management, the kind of first thing that I would say is that a lot of disease processes are either started or made significantly worse by poor husbandry. And this is what I feel so passionate about. And what I've recently written about is, how can we kind of put those skills and put that skill set into practise to enable all RVNS and vets to be asking these questions when these pigs are presented, into consults?
So nutrition is a bit obviously a big one sort of environmental. Husbandry. I think the other big one would be socialisation and companionship behaviour.
They're really complex little things and I think people kind of miss that. You know, they have a lot of vocalisations and a lot of different ways of showing these behaviours and just have basic understanding can really help. I think it was great at the forum.
We had these videos that were showing even different vocalisations, didn't they? And what that was showing. And it is really quite, sophisticated being able to tell the difference between all of them, isn't it?
Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating when you get into it. And I mean, I don't I don't know the reference off the top of my head. But when I was reading around the subject, I found that guinea pigs are actually used really commonly in research for human hearing aids because the range of their vocalisations is so wide.
Which I just thought was a really nice kind of analogy to show how how varied and how interesting these little animals are. No, that's fascinating. And just tell us a little bit about the rescue.
So obviously five years ago, you know, you you are busy in practise. You're doing some education as well and obviously no babies at that point just decided you were a bit too quiet and, set up a rescue in your backyard. And that sounds like you've had a fascinating journey there.
Yeah, it was all a bit of a weird one, I think. Probably covid and lockdown. I got something to answer for if I'm honest.
Because I was still in practise, during the first lockdown. So during the first well, all of 2020. Pretty much, and it basically happened that I wanted to open as a boarding facility.
Because I built my shed and decided I was going to have loads of guinea pigs in it. And so I said to my husband, I'm I'm gonna open a few boarding pens because there seems to be a shortage of people that I trust to look after my guinea pigs. So I want people to have that option, and I thought, Well, the pens are quiet.
We may as well do a bit of rescue. And then that just absolutely took off. People know us now as a rescue rather than a boarding facility.
I do still run the business side of it, separate completely separately. But it's very, very small in comparison to the rescue. So I think today we've rehomed about maybe just over 1000 guinea pigs since January 21 was when we officially started rehoming.
So four years, 250 a year, which is and and when people you know you're rescuing guinea pigs, is it often they've been bought in singles? Or Or What's the reason that people come to you and say You need to take this guinea pig off me? It's It's very varied.
So at the minute we get sadly a lot of, financial crisis situations. Obviously with the cost of living, people realise that they're actually fairly expensive pets to keep by the time you've paid for bedding and fresh food. And so sometimes it's that kind of change in circumstances.
House moves, things like that kids have lost interest is unfortunately, one of the most common we still see. And quite often we just get a lot of really genuinely lovely people that need our help. Who, for example, had two lost?
One don't want to end up in a constant guinea pig cycle. So yeah, it it really does vary and you've obviously also expanded that you've got volunteers. So how how did the volunteers get involved?
Most of them, accidentally. So most of our volunteers and fosters, when they listen to this, they'll be laughing. Approached us to adopt.
For example, two guinea pigs, and now have nine of their own guinea pigs. Foster for us transport for US volunteer at fairs and all sorts. So, quite by accident.
How obviously we know that guinea pigs are, animals that like to live in community. So you have two of them suddenly end up with nine. There still must be a hierarchy.
So introducing a new guinea pig as a foster, there must be a you know, that must be quite a complicated process. How how is that managed if a new one is coming in? Yeah.
So, generally they don't, add the rescues into their own herds. They normally have at least one, if not two of their own herds that they kind of add sometimes, too, if they get what we call a foster fail. That never leaves.
But generally speaking, they'll keep them completely separate. So in sort of separate facilities just for infection control. And, kind of, you know, just being aware of anything that might pass on as well.
It's been fascinating chatting. Is there any sort of last words of wisdom that you would like to leave with people? That they're delicate little creatures, but they're beautiful creatures.
They they're always They always seemed to me when I was treating them to be really sort of friendly. And And, I remember one of my first cases as a very young vet having a guinea pig in that was struggling had a big pot belly and I. I was panicking, cos you know, I knew a bit about dogs and cats, but not so much about guinea pigs.
But actually, when you take them at a first principle of saying, Well, OK, let's give this animal a proper clinical examination. Of course, I noticed I had a really bad heart murmur, and I think it just had heart failure. We treated it with some Lasix, and obviously that helped it a bit.
So any sort of other tips. If you like that, people should be using to, take the fear out of maybe treating guinea pigs. You know, young graduates who go.
I know nothing about this. What would your first thoughts be? Well, first of all, I would say, just get clued up on basic guinea pig husbandry because, actually, we could probably avoid a lot of these illnesses come to light if we just dealt with that first.
There's a really good article. That's just been, just been written. If anybody is interested, hopefully we can get some signposts to that.
That kind of talks you through how to structure your consults and talk to owners and get information back. But I think sort of when you summarise it, they they're small, little prey animals. They don't give much away.
So don't underestimate, you know, tiny little symptoms. You know, if the owner comes in and goes, he's just not not quite himself. You know, he's just not quite eaten enough.
That probably means there's something quite major going on. And it's definitely worth investigating further. Hannah, it's been brilliant speaking to you, we definitely should maybe do a bit more.
We We thankfully, you know, Burgess are so supportive. Of the profession with the webinars they do with us on on rabbits and guinea pigs. So I think we're definitely on a journey of becoming better at treating them.
But there's more that we can still do. I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, I think 2024 is the year for it. We've we've had the first welfare forum, so that's a massive step forward. And hopefully it's just the start of something amazing.
Yeah, and thank you so much for all that you're doing for guinea pigs. They are, as I say, a adorable little creatures. So it's great that we are taking them much more seriously as a profession as well.
Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks, Hannah.
And thanks everyone for listening. Hope to see you on a podcast or webinar very soon. Take care
