Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet, welcoming you to another one of our podcasts vet chat, and very fortunate today to have Emma Keeble on the line. Emma is a wildlife vet based up in Edinburgh. Thank you so much for taking time to come onto the, the podcast, Emma.
It's, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me to, to chat with you today. Obviously, I mean, you, you perhaps tell us a little bit about yourself.
You started at Bristol University training, didn't you, which is, is a lovely part of the world to do all things wildlife anyway, isn't it, with Slimbridge and the Somerset levels. Well, certainly, Bristol was a wonderful place to study, and I did a lot of caving while I was there as well. So, managed to see some of the more rarer species of bats, such as the lesser horseshoe bats, which was amazing.
But, I guess I've always been interested in wildlife. I used to, you know, go out with a friend who was doing a study, trapping small mammals and, and help with that. And I also asked for a bat detector for one of my birthdays.
So it's been something I've, I've always wanted to do. And then at Bristol, I was really involved with, the, one of the sort of exotic animal vet groups for wildlife. And I ran the WWF group as well.
So, we had a lot of interesting people come and talk to us about wildlife, which, again, made me really interested in wanting to pursue that, really, as a veterinary career. Did you ever come upon John Cooper at Bristol University? I actually met John Cooper as a, a helper, assistant in my very first vet practise, and he was the key person who made me want to become an exotic vet.
Actually, he used to come once a month, and we'd save all the really interesting cases for him. And at that time, a lovely vet who also taught at Cambridge Vet School called Judy Cooper was the main exotics person. So they both were very, formative really in, in my development of an interest in exotics.
So it goes even further back than vet school, actually. John is, is such an enthusiast and I was so fortunate. He actually gave me a signed copy of his book on guerrilla medicine and conservation, which is, of course, one of his huge passions, isn't it?
I think you you're very lucky to have that attached in and John and his, his wife Margaret also were involved with the wildlife BSAVA manual that myself and this Mulllyu were co-editors on. So it was nice to have them contribute their wealth experience to that too. It's a, it is a difficult journey though, isn't it, to make a career in wildlife medicine, you know, you qualified from vet school.
Obviously it's limited experiences to get into zoos, but I know you worked for a while at Edinburgh Zoo. Perhaps tell us about that journey of how you managed to crack into that very elusive and exclusive field of wildlife medicine. Yeah.
I, I had an interest in being a zoo vet, and I've seen a lot of work experience as a student. So that's a great opportunity, where you can really just get your foot in the door and get to know people. We also had a single zoo lecture at Bristol.
And after the lecture, I rushed up to, to get, the, the lecturers. Opinion on how best to become a zoo vet. And he basically said, don't bother.
Really, it's very, very hard. So instead of getting disheartened by that experience, I decided, actually, I was going to become a zoo vet. And I was very lucky, a new residency programme had started at Edinburgh University at the small animal hospital.
And I applied for it and was very lucky to get the post. So that involved working with Edinburgh Zoo, working also at a local wildlife hospital, as well as teaching vet students, and also running a first opinion referral exotic tech practise. So it's kind of a jack of all trades.
And I really enjoyed that. It was an amazing experience and obviously learned a lot through that. And was the wildlife Hospital an SSPCA hospital?
Yes, it was actually, it was quite local to us, and we go once a week, and they leave all the sort of interesting cases for us to see. So several times I was driving back with a couple of swans in the back of the car. It always used to make me laugh, that people would just see these swan heads as they drove past me.
So that was, that was a very Happy time match him. And again, learned a lot and create some really good, friendships and relationships with the local wildlife rehabilitators as well. Did you, did you ever get stopped by the police asking why you were hijacking some of the Queen's property?
Luckily, no, and, and thankfully also never involved in any accidents, because I think that would have been quite a, a story to explain. No, fantastic. And I think we have a similar place, the RSPCA hospital down in, Staplely.
Which I've been lucky enough to go down to with Panto was working there and it's fascinating, even seals and so on can be rehabilitated from these places. What was perhaps your most unusual wildlife casualty that ended up at the hospital in in Scotland? Oh, that's an interesting question.
. Well, we, we do actually seal quite a lot of seals. And, and I, I know, I, I personally really enjoy seal work. I know they're perhaps not as exotic as you might expect.
But, the last two summers, actually, I've been involved in seal rescue operations. I've been on the beach with family, and, baby seals come, come, onto shore. And basically is emaciated and thin and very weak.
And so I've been involved actually hands on with with Quite a few of those. And they're always such a delight, really. I suppose the common's a lot more, quiet and placid, than the grey seal pups that can be quite, have quite an attitude.
But I quite like that as well. It it makes it challenging to handle them. And obviously, once they're feeling better, you, you don't get as much opportunities to get hands on.
But I think the seals, it's a, it's a big mammal. It's something that we, we see occasionally don't be popping up in the water, but to actually have it, bought into you and hands-on is, is quite a specialist thing. And you're, you're right, there are 3 wildlife hospitals for the RSPCA.
And I actually worked in one of those, for, for 2 years as a veterinary wildlife intern at West Hatch, which again, was an amazing experience. Mm. And then, of course, it could just going back to the seals, as you say, can give you a quite nasty nip, can't they?
Yes, you do have to be really careful and know what you're doing. But, people who are very experienced handling can literally just use a thin towel, over the heads to, to sort of calm them. And then it's a quick jump onto the seal to, to restrain it.
But the little common seals are very easy to handle. They, they tend to be less bitey. So you obviously did the intern residency at Edinburgh University.
Did that then translate into a full-time job at Edinburgh Zoo? Was that the sort of next part of the journey, or did you go to that and before the zoo? So, West Hatch was actually for a couple of years.
I was in practise for a couple of years, and then I went to West Hatch, the wildlife Hospital, and it was from that that I then went up to, Edinburgh Zoo after a brief period again, back in practise. So, I was 10 years. At the zoo and initially was a resident, and then was very fortunate to be suddenly promoted to head of service when one of my colleagues went off on maternity leave.
And I've stayed since then. I, I really find it a great job. Edinburgh Zoo now have their own, vets who, who deal with their cases.
But we do still occasionally get involved with them, and particularly if they're wanting things like advanced imaging and wanting to bring an animal in to get an MRI or CT scan done. We, we have so many different requests actually at Edinburgh for an incredible different, number of species. We, we had this week, some work being done with a, a shark actually as well.
So, you know, it really can, can be anything that we see, . One of, one of my worst sort of cases, actually, was a scorpion that came on the train down from Aberdeen in a box. And the reason I say it's worse just because I'm not particularly keen on scorpions.
So I had to, had to, steel myself and treat this, this animal. And actually, it turned out it had a little abscess on its back, and we managed to treat it by antibiotics in its food. And it did really well.
So that, that's good. But it really can be anything that's coming through the door, at the, at the vet school. I think it's interesting sometimes I remember being a very young graduate, as in the first couple of months, and I got a guinea pig coming in that just didn't look well and as I sort of examined it properly, I realised it had.
A swollen abdomen. I then listened to its heart, found out that it had You know, a heart murmur and Sometimes when you see a funny and unusual species, you can kind of forget that actually it is all about first principles, isn't it, that we can Look at many of these animals just by going back to first principles. I'm not quite so sure how I would listen to a scorpion's heart, but you know, there is, there is limitations, but there's so much that we can do.
And of course I know John used to love bringing in the African giant land snails into Liverpool. All of these interesting stick insects and so on. It's, it's fascinating, but you, you can just go back to first principles and that will get you certainly.
A distance into the case, won't it? Obviously the specialist knowledge is, is important as well. I, I think you're absolutely right.
And that's what we're really trying to teach our students at Edinburgh. I, I feel, actually, generally, students have been very well taught about those sort of basic principles and not to panic, just to go back to square one, you know, do as much of a clinical examination as you feel you can safely. And then use your, your basic principles to work the case up.
And there are also a lot of, Helpful organisations or such as British Veterinary Zoological Society that you can join if you're seeing a lot of exotic pets. And there's usually always someone you can pick up the phone to or email to ask for advice. And we get a lot of advice calls from vets at Edinburgh.
But, you know, we, we try and take time to answer all of them because it can be quite daunting in practise. But, yeah, absolutely, with the, with the scorpion, it had a lump on its back, so we aspirated it and looked it under microscope and it had an abscess. So, you know, Even though it seems a bit daunting when it's presented to you at first, it is easy, to apply first principles.
And if you get to a point where you're really not happy, then obviously ask for help. I, I have to ask the question. I presume that the scorpion was anaesthetized before it was examined.
Yes, from what I can remember it, it was. So that's another whole, difficulty, isn't it, that you're encountering. But we also have some wonderful manuals, you know, the BSAVA manual of exotic pets.
I think that was always my go to and practise, and it's been updated quite recently. So that's a really helpful thing to have. And you'll get all the basic sort of information that you need there.
And we're getting that from the, the author's mouth as well, so it must be good. Yeah, I, I think I've, I've certainly contributed to it over the years. Like, I don't think I'm in the, the most latest version, but, there are many other books as well, you know, as you're aware of BSAVA manuals on exotics that can be useful too.
So I, I have to ask, you know, the, the, the scorpion got better, so presumably there was, there was no sting in the tail with that case then. I couldn't resist that Emma, sorry. I apologise, apologise.
Oh, excellent. Moving on to, obviously the wildlife, medicine and I think there's possibly a couple of things that I'd like to talk about. First of all, obviously, avian flu is, is still around.
What, what is your sort of take on, on that at the moment? Yeah, I mean, it has been a real worry, hasn't it, this year in 2022 in January, when we had the first sort of cases identified in wildlife, and there's some really good government websites that will give you all the latest information on where we are with avian flu. But I think we Often overlook the importance of wildlife as sentinels for these sorts of diseases.
And actually, it's really important for us to perform sort of proper postmortems on any wild birds that are dying unexpectedly or with signs that are suspicious of avian flu. And I think we're all very much aware, aren't we, having been through the COVID pandemic of how quickly a disease can potentially spread into a new host and then become quite significant worldwide issues. So avian flu is definitely one to watch, that there are concerns, and there has been one case, I believe, so far in in a a human, a gentleman called Mr.
Go. Who kept ducks in his house. So, this is something, I guess we need to just be very much aware of.
And, and hopefully, as vets, I think we are actually very good at applying sort of general principles to both wildlife and pet animals, and, and disease control and and zoonotic disease is something we're very aware of as well. I think sometimes we have that holistic approach that as medicine is specialised so much and you might have a doctor who looks at shoulders, you know, if you ask him about avian flu, that would probably be a difficult conversation, whereas. Obviously we do specialise, but, but there is still that sort of holistic looking at the whole picture, isn't it?
And, and the, the whole concept of one health in some ways is, there's been a lot coming from the veterinary side. So, yeah, I know, I absolutely agree and of course. As you said, COVID came from pangolins or bats or whatever.
We're now looking also at monkeypox, which is again rearing its ugly head, obviously not as serious as COVID, but still a concern, and I know there was. I think it was prairie dogs that were involved in America, weren't they, in that particular disease? Yeah, exactly.
And, and I was quite surprised when that was first really hitting the news that there wasn't any mention of any sort of reservoir for this, and obviously they were more concerned about human to human contact, but certainly small rodents can carry it and again, it's something we need to be very much aware of. I think this also came through actually going back to COVID with the pet ferret situation, because we, quite quickly identified that ferrets could potentially get COVID as well. And again, there was really clear advice on the government website about What to do if you had a pet ferret and we're concerned about this.
So, you know, these sorts of issues are much more what's the word? We we we sort of much more aware of the situation and how things can progress very quickly. And I think that that's a very positive thing that's come out of COVID.
And like you say, us, us vets tended to always be aware of the potential for zoonosis and, you know, wear gloves and protective, clothing and masks and so forth. So it wasn't too much of a, transition, for us, but I think it has really, opened the medical world, the human medical world up to, to realising that the, it's not just one individual thing. It's like you say, one health that we need to be more holistic in our approach as well.
Have to finish with perhaps one of my favourite little species that I'm lucky enough to see quite regularly in my garden, which is, is the hedgehog presumably at Edinburgh and during your career you've seen a fair number of injured and diseased hedgehogs in your time, perhaps. Share a little bit about what, what's perhaps a couple of tips for people to think about. One of my ones is always, they're so difficult to examine once they roll up, aren't they?
Do they just need to be anaesthetized pretty much all the time to do a diff a decent examination on them? That's a really good question, actually. It depends on, on how huffy the hedgehog is, really.
You can gently coax them to come out. And my favourite way is by gently just stroking the spines from, from head to tail, and rocking them gently side to side, so they tend to put their feet down if you do that. And you can get a little bit of a look at the nose and eyes, and, certainly at the limbs as well, to an extent.
But the proper exam is going to be under a general anaesthetic. And actually one of the really positive things with that is if they're covered in flea. Usually the general anaesthetic will also anaesthetize those as well, and they'll all drop off.
So we use a gaseous induction, pre-oxygenating, and then sevoflu on our eyes or whatever you have in a, in a chamber. But obviously, be aware that those fleas will, will wake up as soon as they, they are out of that chamber. So we usually, put the hedgehog onto a little face mask to, to continue with the anaesthetic, and then try and spray or, or, you know, release the flea somewhere else.
Oh. But they are the most amazing, wonderful animals, but they tend to get into such terrible predicaments of all the, the wildlife that we see. They, they fall down holes, they get stuck in netting.
You know, they, they go down sort of pipes and can't reverse. Strimmer injuries, bonfire injuries, you know, a lot of these things seem to befall a little friendly hedgehog. And there have been real concerns about decline in population numbers over the last few years.
I was reading an article recently in the BBC wildlife which is saying that there is a little bit of a resurgence, but it's more in the urban areas, in the rural areas, they still struggle and of course, one of their chief predators is, is the badger, isn't it? And certainly badgers have been in the news a lot fairly recently. They always seem to be in the news, and we do have large populations of them, certainly in, in the south of the country.
But I think also with the, the hedgehogs, there is the feeling that this over urbanisation of, of the countryside has actually led to, partly led to decline and increase in roads, you know, road traffic accidents are also very common. And there are little things that I think we should be doing, that can help these, these. Animals.
And so, you know, having a hedgehog house in your garden, making a little hole in your fence so that hedgehogs can enter your garden easily. It only really needs to be the size of a CD disc. And, and that can give them greater access to these wonderful gardens.
And also allowing wild plants to grow, so we have, you know, slugs and snails and not using any of the, the compounds to remove those at all. And those little things I think should really help. I also put the hedgehog pellets out and some, I mean, they love mealworms.
I know I read stuff which says, you know, you really shouldn't give mealworms. What, what's your kind of take on, on the mealworms situation because it does look like crack cocaine for them in fairness. They, they, they devour them.
They love them, don't they? . It's like anything.
It's like, if you sat and ate cream cakes all day, you, you'd get overweight. I mean, they are high fat, they're low in calcium, you know, and, and certain of the vitamins. So they're not, they're not an ideal.
They're not a complete diet. But if you've got an ailing animal or a thin animal, an animal that's really struggling to find food, then it is a wonderful way to encourage them to come into the garden. So, I think it swings and roundabouts.
If that is literally all they're eating, then I would be worried, but hopefully they will be going off and foraging elsewhere and perhaps limiting the amount you actually give them each night might be a good idea. And and cat food is often . Appreciated by them as well, isn't it?
Absolutely, yeah. And perhaps dry cat food over wet cat food, because we do see a lot of dental disease in pet, in pet hedgehogs, but also in the wildlife ones that are overwintered. So trying to reduce the risk of sort of, you know, plant buildup and, you know, that, that is really important by giving sort of a dry, hard food instead of wet, wet food regularly.
Although they do like that as well. I have to say I can almost time them now to when they'll come into the garden and and . It's a lot more entertaining than Love Island.
Not that I've watched Love Island, but I'm, I, I had a friend around, and as she was leaving, I said just hold on before we open the door, we'll do it quietly, see if there's hedgehogs in the garden. As I opened it, one hedgehog was running up the path and the other one behind it. And I was very fortunate to see, should we say, some sexual activity, which I believe is, is quite a rare thing to do, you know, I know the joke is how do hedgehogs make love carefully.
I got a, I got a graphic description of it, so when they were on my, on my path in my garden. It, it is quite, a noisy affair, and as you say, quite a difficult affair as well. But I, I, I love that analogy to, to Love Island, I think.
Seeing the, the, the animals that are actually in your own garden is, is wonderful. But yeah, I mean, we have a lot where I live and, and we're sort of out in the countryside and had the same, same experience. It's sort of 4 in the morning that, there were amorous events happening.
At the end of our drive. And it's these little things, just noticing, you know, and encouraging hedgehogs into your garden is such a lovely thing to do. I, I talk a lot about, conservation and sustainability, but as you say, it's all holistic.
It all dovetails together because we're now talk a lot about mental health, and there's no doubt for me that, you know, I, I have joy when I go out to birdwatch or to watch the hedgehogs in my garden instead of watching the news or whatever. It can be so therapeutic as well, can't it? Absolutely.
And, and I think we've all spent a lot more time on our gardens in the last few years. So, and enjoyed sort of, making them a nice place for us to relax and. And part of that is making a wildlife area, encouraging wildlife into your garden, perhaps having bird feeders up as well.
And, I think, I think it's a lovely thing. There's a lot of really good organisations you can get in contact with, you know, to, to encourage that and You know, bat organisations and the hedgehog organisations as well. Emma, it's been great to speak to you.
Thank you for all that you do for the nation's wildlife. It's, it's such an important area. Obviously some of them are struggling like the hedgehogs, so it's great that we've, we've got that ability to be able to take them to our practises.
I know how much great work practises do. I did it myself when I had a practise. So, so thank you for everything that you do to teach us as GPs how to look after hedgehogs, seals, and all manner of things.
So thank you so much. Thank you. It's been lovely chatting with you.
Thanks, Emma. Take care. Bye bye.
