Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the number one UK veterinary podcast. I'm so pleased to be, meeting with Becky Ma this afternoon. We met previously at one of the conferences and got chatting about some of the fantastic work that Becky has been doing, for her PG cert.
Becky's gonna introduce herself properly in a minute, but it was all around consumer psychology, and I must admit, I love a little bit of pop psychology. I'm not a psychologist myself, but I think we all are to some degree, psychologists in that we read people every day, don't we? And I must admit one of two of my favourite books I've read in the last couple of years, Becky, have been in the Art of Persuasion or Influence by Chaldini and also the chimp paradox, so.
Thank you so much for coming on. Perhaps tell us a little bit about your journey, that's brought you to this particular training, and then we're gonna talk a little bit about how, Influence and psychology is, is really important when we're talking to our clients. Thanks, Anthony.
I'm really pleased to be here. I'm a veterinary surgeon by training. I started out in small animal practise.
And, after a few years in practise, the learning curve started to flatten a little bit and at that point I came to realise quite quickly that I wanted to do something different with my degree than stay in clinical practise, and that's when I started looking around for other opportunities. I was really lucky to get a great opportunity in industry in pharmaceuticals, and so I moved into the veterinary pharmaceutical sector, and I've been there for over 18 years up until very recently actually. So in my time there, I've worked in all sorts of different roles from marketing roles, technical roles.
I've led teams and built teams. But one of the things that really fascinated me, through my time in industry is that, I, I've been really lucky to work on some really groundbreaking clinical studies in my time in industry. And, you know, I'm talking the kind of studies that really changed the face of medical recommendations.
You know, we'd be sitting in a room with, the, you know, the, the most eminent specialists in that therapy area saying to us, you know, this is groundbreaking, this is a no brainer, this is gonna change everything. And we'd be so excited and we'd take it out to the profession, and again, the profession would be so excited and they would tell us that this is going to change everything that we do. But what we didn't always see was a change in behaviour off the back of that.
And I found that really fascinating that, you know, you can have all the evidence, all the science behind you to say that you should do something, and yet we don't always do it. And, you know, when you look around. In the rest of our lives, you see that all the time, right?
You see. January, you know, we make lots of promises to ourselves that we probably ditch by February or March, not through a lack of intention to carry them through, but just through human nature. You know, you see people wanting to save money for their long term future, and giving that up instead so that they can have a bit of, you know, gratitude now in the short term.
And I, I found that really, really fascinating, that gap between. Intention and behaviour, and that's what really led me to the door of consumer psychology. What's really interesting that we as scientists, you would think that we would really place science and the logic absolutely first.
And yet as individuals, we're all emotional individuals aren't we, and actually emotion tends to trump logic doesn't it? 100%, yeah, I mean, you know, even the decisions, the big decisions in life that we would think, you know, must be driven by rationality. Surely they're such big decisions, you know, whether it's buying a house, buying a car, investing in your pension, deciding who you're gonna marry, you know, these are all decisions which you would think they're so gargantuan that they would be driven largely by rational thought.
But, all the evidence is that actually, you know, the vast majority of the time, whether the decision is something small like what to have for breakfast this morning, or whether it's something massive like which house to buy, it's driven really by a primitive mind, you know, we talk about system one thinking and system two thinking, . System one being the kind of evolutionary old, gut instinct, you know, that kind of snap decision that we make, when we're, when we're, you know, before we even really think consciously. And that's what takes control the vast majority of the time, over and above System two thinking, which is the slower, rational, more effortful thinking where we're weighing up evidence.
We actually put that into play. Relatively rarely because it's tough for us, it's not easy for our brains to do that. And very often it's coming into play after our system one has already made a decision and we're post hoc rationalising what we've already decided we're going to do.
And I think it's really interesting cos I know you've just recently done a PG cert and that was very much part of your research, but bringing it very much into the veterinary field, which is fascinating. And I, I'm really interested. In how, particularly from all the work that Chaldini did, how important the way we present ourselves, is so important to whether a client, Takes a blood test or has a dental, has a dental procedure done, nobody likes to say that word dental, has a dental procedure done on their cat or their dog.
You know, that, that whole process is really important, isn't it? So perhaps tell us a little bit about the PG search that you did and the, the, some of the, the thesis work that you did and the, the surveys and experiments. Yeah, sure.
So, I set out in my in my sort of final thesis to. Answer the question around what whether whether how we present ourselves as clinicians affects how credible we're seen to be, how likeable we're seen to be, and whether or not it affects people's intention to engage with us and to listen to us. And so I did, there were two arms to, to the study that I ran.
One was, looking at the impact of, of, those things on the veterinary surgeons, audience, and one on pet owners as well. And what I did was I set up for, for vets, I set up some mock CPD events and there was a mixture of, vets wearing clinical dress, specialists wearing clinical dress with stethoscopes around their neck. And letters after their name to show all of their credentials, versus more casual dress and, and just a description of their job title and hospital title.
And those were all mixed up so that we could, we could, could, you know, establish which of those were the important factors. And similarly for pet owners, I did the same thing but using social media posts instead of CPD events. And really interestingly, what we saw was that for both the way that we present ourselves in terms of how we dress, so whether you're wearing clinical dress versus casual or smart casual.
And how we present our credentials, so whether or not you put your letters after your name or you just use hospital name and job title, had a massive impact on how credible we seem to be, how likeable we seem to be, how attractive we are as well, which is quite interesting, but most importantly, how likely the audience is to engage with anything that we've got to say and believe us. So, you know, from a, from a vet practise perspective, a really simple, easy way to dial up the credibility, to dial up how much your practise is liked by the clients that are walking in through the door and how likely they are to listen to you. Dressing vets in clinical dress, putting, you know, scrubs or lab coats, stethoscope round the neck is a really easy quick win.
And similarly, if you're, you know, presenting your team, whether it be on your website or in any of your written communications or even on your door, you know, the, the name plate on your door, putting all of those qualifications after their names again dials up the credibility and likability, by a really, really significant amount. Do you want to become a part of the largest online veterinary community in the world? The webinar vet's membership is the perfect tool to easily complete your veterinary CPD or CE.
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I, I always ask on the podcast to to come up with some top tips. I think that's definitely a, a very, definitely a, a tip one. Have you got any other tips that you'd like to give us as.
How we can use some of the consumer psychology to help clients make better choices, cause I always felt when I was in the room with the client and with the pet, I always said, you know, that there are 3 of us in this relationship, 3 people, a personalised, the dog or the cat. I'm very much. It was a partnership, but I was obviously more an advocate for the pet, so I wanted to do the absolute best for the pets, and I think this was where.
People would appreciate that and understand that as that you were there to give them that advice and then they were more likely to take the advice than if you hadn't positioned that at the beginning of the, you know, serious talk that you had about a, a pet that maybe needed to be put to sleep or would need quite a lot of work done, which obviously would incur quite a bit of cost. Yeah, for sure, and I mean that's one of the principles that you know, you mentioned Chaldini's book, that's one of the principles he talks about that sense of belonging and community by building that, you know, that team, as it were, then that's very persuasive, it's one of his key principles. But yeah, I mean, in terms of, in terms of top tips, I would say that that one really important thing is to make sure that you tap into emotions, you know, think about, we're very good as vets at, delivering the science and delivering the evidence and, and as a wider clinic team, you know, explaining to clients why they need to do something, and that's brilliant, we need to do that.
But what we also need to understand is that the thing that will tip somebody into changing their behaviour is much more likely to be their emotions. And so by finding an emotional appeal, rather than just a rational appeal, we can be so much more persuasive and help lead the pet owner into a decision which is gonna be in the interests of, of the pet. I think Becky, you said before, and it was really key that people.
You know, buy from those and work with those that they like, so it's a likeable personality, isn't it? It's being able to introduce yourself. So they know who you are, make sure that you mention the pets, smile, it's, and sometimes that can be difficult if we're really busy, but actually.
That the client goes away and says, Becky, Anthony, gosh, they're a really nice person, they're much more likely to actually follow up and do what you've asked, rather than, gosh, look at all the initials he's got after his name, but he seemed to be really sour and a bit miserable. They're less likely to follow up on on the veterinary recommendations then, aren't they? That's it, I think being being likeable is actually way more important than than we tend to realise because as humans we're not very good at understanding what it is that we're feeling.
So if we like somebody or we like something, our brains will often confuse that slightly and think they're really credible, they're super believable. You know, they, they know a lot about this, all these different things that your system one will offer up instead of telling you, oh, you like them. And so being likeable is really, really key.
And also thinking about, you know, if you're describing the benefits of doing something, so. I don't know, it could be a treatment that's going to extend a dog's life, rather than just explaining that this treatment may provide them with however many months of extra life, you know, thinking about the emotional, appeal that might sit with that, so which means that you will get to spend, you know, however many months of extra time enjoying life together, you know, building it up into an emotional appeal, not just the rational. I think you had a 3rd tip for us that I, I cut you off on.
No, you're, you're quite all right. I think, I think the 3rd tip from me would be to make everything really super easy to consume. So this speaks to the consumer psychology principle of perceptual fluency, which basically is that perceptual fluency is how easy we find it to decode a message and for our brains to sort of unravel it and work out what it means.
And there are some really simple things that we can do to make things easier for people to understand. So, for example, using language, which is really easy to understand, you know, using everyday language, everyday words, people will understand rather than any other kind of, you know. Abbreviations or words that are going to be tricky for people to get under the skin of.
In written communications, you know, thinking about the fonts that you use, the layout that you've got, you know, all these different things that you can do, to make sure that it's very easy for our brains to take the message on board. And perceptual fluency also links to liking. If it's easy for us to understand something, we're more likely to like it.
And as we've, you know, we've already spoken about, if we like something, then we're going to associate all others, all sorts of other positive things with it as well. So making things simple, making things easy to understand and using language that is really accessible regardless of who's sat in front of you and really leaky. I think it's really interesting and paradoxical that we have some really divisive figures recently in politics, and I, I'm thinking about a previous politician, I won't remem I won't mention his name, but he obviously used very complicated words because he wanted to show everybody how clever he was, whereas actually, and was a popular figure and and obviously was elected as Prime Minister.
But there there's obviously a a twist there that some people was kind of like that, but at the same time. Trust probably goes down because you're not trusting them as much because they're, there's a. There's a risk with all of this stuff that you're talking about consumer psychology, it can very much be used as a force for good, or a force for evil can't it?
And it, it's making sure that we use it in a way that isn't manipulative, but is helping people to make the right decision for the past, etc. Yeah, 100%. And, and one really important principle of consumer psychology is retaining that element of choice, you know, so that you're never.
You know, strong arming somebody into, into a decision, you're never, you know, manipulating, as you said. It's very much just understanding what's likely to be going on in somebody's subconscious that, that might mean that if you present something in a certain way, you're going to push them away from it unknowingly. And so it's it with that understanding, you can then present things in such a way that.
If they want to go in that direction, you're stepping out of their, out of their way to allow them to do that, if you see what I mean. So it's, it's more about working with the subconscious and just not getting in the way of it. And I think if we're open to this and we want to learn, as probably as we get older, we actually we get better at it if we've got a a a a growth mindset rather than a fixed mindset of this is the way I always do things and it's worked really well for me, whereas.
Going into a bit more depth in this area I think can be really pay dividends for people, can't it? 100%, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, in terms of being able to improve client satisfaction, people will feel better about coming into, into the clinic. They will like the clinic more and the people in it more, so you know from a client's perspective, that's a win.
They, they can be encouraged to make decisions that are in the right interest for the pet. So again, you know, healthier pet, happier owner, there's, there's so much to gain from all of this, from looking under the bonnet and, and really understanding what it is that drives behaviour. I'd perhaps like to finish Becky by welcoming you to the, the club.
That's the entrepreneurial club, because as you mentioned earlier on, you've, you've just left, I think I can say Bohringer Ingelheim, not for any particular negative reason, but that you've been so fascinated by this consumer psychology that you've actually started a new companyside Minds Consulting. Perhaps tell us a little bit at the end as to. How you see that working and who are the people that you're looking to help with the, with the new business?
Sure, so I, I, I see Inside Minds Consulting as being for vet practises and for the companies that that serve them. And really what I want to do is to bring consumer psychology into the consciousness of, of vets and the companies that serve them so that, you know, we can work together to help, encourage clients to make decisions that are in the right interests of the pet. And as I said earlier, you know, stepping out of the way.
Of their subconscious, you know, making sure that we don't, we don't prevent them from making the right decision for their pets. So, you know, I'm in the, I'm in the fledgling stages really of, of, of, of setting up the business. I'm in week two, so, it's very early days, but you know, I, I will be offering.
Educational services and auditing services where I can go into the clinics and look at things and if any, any point of contact that the client has with the practise where. There's an opportunity to to, you know, encourage a good decision in terms of pet healthcare. So looking at things like, for example, health plans, whether or not the choices that are being presented are being presented in such a way to encourage a pet owner to take action, encouraging persuasive communication, things like that, so.
So yeah, I'm, I'm really excited about it. It's a great opportunity to, take what I've learned in through my studies of consumer psychology and apply it to the veterinary world. And I think there's, you know, there's a, there's a whole myriad of ways in which it can be applied.
And of course, a, a world that you're very familiar with, because I do think. That's so important sometimes we as vets, we can say oh we don't like being a vet anymore and we leave. And I always feel that's a shame if we're losing skills and they're going into another area where perhaps after 5, 10 years they, they don't have any experience.
People are very versatile, I'm sure they can pick that up. But actually, you, you've been an example of somebody who was in a clinic who then went into corporate pharmaceutical life and now using all those skills that you've learned to continue to work within the veterinary profession and to, to enrich and to help, to help the profession and. It's really important to think that we have people of all different types within the profession because if we end up just with one type, it's, it's a dangerous place to be, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely, and I, I see the the veterinary degree really as a passport into. All sorts of different types of work in the, in the veterinary sector, and I've been really lucky to get the opportunities that I've had, in the pharmaceutical industry and through that, you know, I've learned a tonne and, and it's created, you know, it's lit this lit this flame inside me in terms of consumer psychology as well. So it's led me to where I am today.
But yeah, I very much believe that, you know, when you graduate as a vet. Clinical work is just one path that you can take. There are so many others as well.
Becky, it's been lovely speaking to you. I think we've come up with some really lovely tips there that are really worth considering. I always say with a webinar, with a podcast, whatever we do at Webinar Vet, I want the listener, the watcher, to go away with perhaps one thing that they can take into their clinical practise that will make them a better vet.
And often that's clearly a clinical skill or a clinical tip. But when you think a lot of the complaints that come through the Royal College aren't about he didn't know how to spay a cat, it's very much a communication problem. And the psychology and the likability, this all comes into that, so.
I, I do hope those people who are listening enjoy it. We're gonna put underneath the, the podcast ways that you can get hold of Becky for a for a chat or an email discussion. But I do wish you all the best with the new business.
I think it's a, it's a great idea. It's one of those areas that I must admit I am a pop psychologist. I do love reading these books.
I'm not nearly as academic as as obviously you are, but. It's so important because people buy from people and if we can. Appear if we could be more likeable and that's a genuine thing, I think the world goes around a bit easier, doesn't it, if you're working with people and you're interacting with people and you're not in conflict, so.
Thank you so much, I've really enjoyed speaking to you and as I say, good luck for the, for the fledgling business. Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me. Thanks Becky.
Thanks so much for listening everyone, this is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet. This was another episode of Vet Chat. Bye bye.
