Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast. I'm really, really pleased today to have Lindsay Thomas on the line. Lindsay's a lecturer at the Harper Kee Veterinary School.
We're gonna be talking about that in a minute, but, first of all, just welcome to the podcast, Lindsay. Hi, yes, thank you very much for having me. Lindsay, perhaps you can tell the audience a little bit about your, your backstory, what's brought you to, Harper Key after almost a decade in, in the veterinary profession.
Yes, it's terrifying, almost 10 years. Yeah, so I graduated from Bristol, back in 2014, and I've always had an interest in, exotics or non-traditional companion animals, as we now say, and zoo medicine. So I started working in Birmingham, doing, some exotics, alongside some more animals, moved down to Kent, where I added in a little bit of zoo before I moved to Twycross Zoo in 2021.
And I was there for 2 years working with all of the really amazing animals, but also working alongside students quite a lot, doing the Nottingham exotic rotation. And I really enjoyed that. When the opportunity came up to work for Harper and Keve School, which is kind of a brand new way of doing things and get involved with that, I, I jumped at the chance.
Fantastic, Lindsay. I'm, I'm interested, that's the first time I've heard it, so I, I always say I learned so much on podcasts, but a non-traditional companion animal is a great way of cos exotics or or fairies, it never quite works, does it, because if it's a rabbit, unless you kind of remember that rabbits were brought over at Roman times, they're not really an exotic creature in the UK, are they? Yeah, exactly.
And, I think that's why they're trying to change the terminology a little bit, because also you have non-traditional farm animals as well, which are managed quite differently, even though technically, they used to come under the exotic class. So things like camelids would be classed as exotics, but a lot of the time they're production animals. Yeah, exactly, and you can't really call a a a lizard a a fairy, can you?
So there's all sorts of problems with all the names that we use. Yeah, so I like that non-traditional companion and farm animals and I do remember one of my most challenging cases when I was a young vet was actually trying to carve a llama. Unfortunately the the calf was dead by the time I got there, but that, long neck was certainly a, a challenge to .
To, to bring it to a, a semi-successful conclusion. But they are amazing animals as well, aren't they? The camelids, the alpacas and the llamas.
Yeah. My favourite thing about them is that giving birth is called unpacking, which I think is fantastic. Oh my goodness, that again, learning, so unpacking.
I did not know that. Unpacking a llama. Yeah, I like it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, brilliant. . Of course, Twycross in 2021, it's probably been a really tough time to go into working for a zoo because of course we were in the middle of a, a small matter of a pandemic, weren't we?
Yes, yes, that, that little thing that we've all, we're all kind of pretending didn't happen, to avoid thinking about it too hard. Yeah, it was certainly an interesting time. We were past the worst of it, by that stage, but there were still obviously lots of measures in place.
We were having to wear masks all the time, especially having a very primate and ape heavy collection. So that was because there was a lot of discussion about whether we should be vaccinating for COVID in some of our zoo animals, particularly things like snow leopards, where they'd been a few deaths from COVID-19, when we were very concerned because they're very endangered species. Yeah, of course, and by that stage, were you getting the public back into the zoo, or was that because there were zoos really struggled because of course a lot of their revenue comes from, Admissions and so on and and this just basically stopped didn't it?
I know Cheer Chester Zoo very close to where I live. Really, really struggled and I think went out to public appeal and such like to try and make sure that it was still open and still existed at the end of the pandemic. Yeah, I think, zoos, unlike a lot of kind of tourist attractions, zoos have massive bills, whether they're open or not, because the animals will always be there.
They always need feeding, they always need looking after. So it's not as easy to cut back on costs as it might be for another attraction. So yeah, I think it was difficult, but luckily, most zoos are primarily outside.
So they were one of the first places that were allowed to reopen. We just had all of the inside areas closed off. And then a little bit later on, they became mask areas.
So we had people standing on the doors asking people to put masks on as they entered. Yeah, sure, and you couldn't really furlough animals, could you? No, they kind of insist on their pay.
They're very good at demanding that. So. Yeah, exactly.
No, it's really, fascinating, particularly around the, the, the primates and as you say, the snow leopard. Did you actually go down the route of vaccinating any of the primates in the end or or did you leave that? No, so it was a it was a discussion.
When we were first discussing it, the only vaccines available with the human vaccines, and it didn't feel right to take vaccines away when the human population hadn't been vaccinated yet. So it actually became a bit of an ethical issue. And then now there is the animal vaccine, the mink one that you can use.
And I know a lot of collections have started using that. The data is starting to come through and results for ongoing protection have been variable. So I don't believe they've started vaccinating at this point.
We're waiting for a little bit more information. Yeah, as they have been, I think for humans as well, I, I was up to date and in July I caught it again, not, you know, terribly, badly, but . It is an interesting vaccine in that it is not giving complete protection, is it?
Yeah, yeah, as with many vaccines, I suppose. Yeah, of course. I mean, I, I, one of my highlights of my life was being able to go down and see the mountain gorillas in Bindi in Uganda.
And they what a real conservation success story, because when I went there were about 650 individuals. When Diane Fossey had started to work, there were about 300. Left in the world.
Now they're well over 1000, but something like a pandemic, you know, a flu or a COVID pandemic could cause so much damage because they are so isolated, aren't they, in those three countries, DRC, Rwanda and Uganda, so, . We have to be so, so careful, keeping that distance, we have to have a distance between us unless they came in towards us. But I presume again, you know, if those visits are still happening, people will have been wearing masks as you were in the in the zoo during that time, which, I remember as as the pandemic happened, we helped to take the World Veterinary Association's congress online.
And that was due to happen in Auckland in, in New Zealand and obviously Auckland did so well and New Zealand did so well during the pandemic. It was interesting, we had a, a COVID symposium at the beginning of the You know, during this meeting, and one of the people who was in charge of . Protecting the New Zealanders was the chief doctor and he came on to the COVID pandemic and he said the most important thing to do, you know, washing hands is important, but until a vaccine comes is to wear a mask, and this was early May 2020, and of course I think it took us about two months up until July before the government was sort of mandating it halfheartedly in the UK so it's the masks I think were a massive help in controlling the pandemic, weren't they?
Yeah. And interestingly, with the, because of Tw Cross has all four great ape species and bonobos would be kind of the least known of those. They are particularly sensitive to respiratory infections.
So it was always a role that bookkeepers and vets were masked when we went in with those animals. But I think they've now expanded that, and they're just doing that for the apes in general, just to help prevent the spread of respiratory pathogens between humans and animals, because we're so similar. We can just spread things between us so easily.
It must be a big thrill and a big privilege, you know, I felt very privileged just to sit with those apes for the hour, you know, and and just interact in it, or watch their interactions. There was all sorts of interesting things going on, some of which probably is inappropriate to talk about in a podcast, so we can talk about that privately afterwards, but it must be such a huge privilege to be able to work with these beautiful creatures as you did, you know, on a daily basis. Yeah, they, they're certainly interesting to work with.
And I think when you work so closely with them, obviously, I was just the vet going, to usually do nasty things to them. So, occasionally I would get poor reactions. I've had a fruit juice spit at me and things thrown at me, which I won't mention with astonishing accuracy in some cases.
One of them was also very good at, directing a stream of urine from quite a height. I was always impressed with his aim. Yes, but they are, they're certainly very interesting to watch and just to see how, how kind of human they are in many ways.
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Yeah, we'll come back to the zoos in a minute, but I, I just wanted to have a chat to you about Harper Key. I was very impressed going there in the summer for the opening of their new building. I, I think it's also won the awards at Keele as a very sustainable university, the way that they, they work, and was impressed with some of the stuff that I saw there.
But what most impressed me, the buildings were impressive and you know, the general surroundings were impressive. I think there were wind farms and solar panels that were being used to to power the the buildings and so on. But it came across as a really inclusive university.
Matt has done a really great job there in including everyone. So in that opening ceremony, students were giving talks, lecturers were giving talks, obviously he gave a talk as well. And it felt like a really friendly place to work.
You're obviously fairly new there, but what's your first impressions? Yeah, so I've, I only started in July. So, I've only been there for 4 months and only working with the students for just over a month now.
But it is really friendly, really lovely. Everyone's very supportive. Everyone's mucking in to, to get things done.
And yeah, it's, it's just really, really nice to work with such a great group of people. Yeah, I think it's. It's not by accident culture happens in every business and it can either be inflicted on you or it can be created and it seems that Matt, you know, and the team have created a really friendly and inclusive and supportive environment which you know, I'd like to applaud him for.
And of course the students, I think you've now got your first cohort of 4th year, so it's still a couple of years out before graduation, but, yeah, it's interesting times for them finally going in, although I think they do clinical things very early days, we, we have the very traditional curriculum at Liverpool where we did a pre-clinical, 2 years, then a para-clinical 3rd year, and then the last 2 years were stuffed with. With clinical and I think a lot of the, the newer schools are really bringing clinical in very early, aren't they? Is that the same impression that you've got with Harper?
Yeah, particularly with practical skills, they do spend a lot of time doing practical things, making sure that their day one skills are, are up to scratch. So we're hoping to have a really, really good cohort of good first opinion vets coming out. And, and what are you teaching at the vet school, Lindsay, are you continuing to sort of teach in that non-traditional companion animal area?
So I am actually a, a lecturer in general veterinary practise, and I'm the primary small animal vet on the 4th year team. So I'm managing their small animal teaching, which, obsessingly for them, means that they get non-traditional companion animals in every lecture, regardless of what it's about. So, especially with the mammalian, species, I try and include them.
So if I'm doing a lecture on skin, the non-traditional companion animals just go in with it. The bit where, where it gets a little bit more tricky is with avian and reptile species, because some of their physiology is so different. So they might be separated out for reproductive disease or neurological disease, for example.
But other than that, they they have rabbits in every lecture, and I know they, they love it, absolutely love it. I'm sure. Well, it's really interesting.
I always used to think of rabbits, often people would come in with young children and it was almost like a first pet for them, and I think a rabbit is actually such a complex animal. Needs so much attention and the husbandry needs to be so spot on that actually I'm not sure it's the easiest pet to get as a, as a first pet for a young child because they need a lot of attention, don't they? Yeah.
I mean, rabbits are a slightly better choice than hamsters, which are the other ones people tend to, to get for children. But yeah, any, any kind of non-traditional species, as you say, they have such specific husbandry requirements. They're not really suitable for children.
And one of my real bugbears in practise was people bringing me a rabbit or a hamster or a lizard. I'd ask for the history and they'd turn towards their eight year old and say, well, it's your pet, you tell them. You'd never do that with a dog or a cat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, hamsters always seem to be very good at biting. Which is also probably not the best gift for a 7 or 8 year old.
Yes, unfortunately, I did see a lot of dropped hamsters with fractured incisors where they'd bitten someone and then had a fall. Yeah, I remember talking to somebody once holding a hamster with their two children in attendance, and it managed to swivel its head as hamsters can only do and. In, in, in, it sort of completely sort of.
Put it's teeth into my finger and then the, the obvious tendency is to flick, which I didn't do. I didn't flick, I didn't swear, and I also had to very carefully take this hamster off my finger, put it back into the into its cage and take a few deep breaths. So they, they can inflict quite nasty injuries, can't they?
Yes, I think my worst ever bite was from a gerbil. And yes, it was running my hand, which was quite freely flowing with blood under the tap, opening the door and very calmly asking, is there any, any nurses who could come and assist me, please? Yes, remove the gerbil.
Fantastic. So I'm really pleased that Harper is going well and, and good luck to all the students moving into the clinical years. You talked about Bristol, obviously, where you qualified from, but you did do an intercalating year didn't you, in, in, a master's in conservation science in the best veterinary school in the UK, Liverpool.
So tell us a little bit about the, the MSC, the sort of things you covered in that, Conservation Science masters. Yeah, lovely. So, yes, I was very lucky when I was at that school, the Wellcome Trust was still doing grants.
So I got my master's basically for free, which I think, is very, very lucky. They don't get that these days. So I spent a year between 3rd and 4th year up in Lee Hurst, which is very beautiful.
And yeah, we were learning all kinds of things. So we did things like research science, which I think sometimes we don't, as vets, learn a lot about. So just things like population counting and how we do that.
The role of genetics and conservation, played quite a big role. With all of the new techniques, people are doing lots of genetic analysis of endangered species and actually finding that maybe we have more or even fewer species than we thought we did. .
Yeah, all things like that, just all kind of conservation medicine topics that vets can be involved in the role of disease, the role of genetics, how we do research. How do you see zoos fitting into conservation because within the past we've we've spoken to one of the vets at Born Free and they would be quite. Anti zoos, I think there can be really good zoos and, you know, zoos and private collections, you know, I, I know that there's many of those across the world that really are nothing short of prisons.
Where do you think zoos fit in, you know, because I, I kind of feel that there's somewhere in the middle that we do need zoos because of course there are endangered species in the ideal world, we of course keep those environments safe so that the animals can breed and live naturally in them, but. We don't live in an ideal world at the moment, as we probably all know if we look at the news. Where do you see zoos coming in and, you know, do you see that similar sort of gradation of zoos from, you know, really very poor private collections to some really super super research and conservation zoos?
Yeah, exactly, I I think. Zoos are necessary at the moment, because, as you say, we don't live in an ideal world. And hopefully, one day, if as a, as a species, humans can get our act together, there will be no need for zoos.
And we'll be able to have animals in the wild where they belong. We won't have messed up the forests, the oceans, the savannah, every other habitat we've managed to infringe upon. And that will be amazing, but I, I don't think we're there, and I don't think we're gonna get there for a long time yet.
So in my mind, the role of zoos is to hold a collection of animals so that we have a refuge population. So that if we do, you know, end up in the worst case scenario where we've made a species extinct in the wild, we have animals and genetics that we can fall back on. But I also think that zoos play other roles.
I think these are less obvious. People always think of zoos as they hold the animals, they breed the animals, and eventually the animals go back out. And, you know, that's, that's the basic concept.
But I think there's a lot of other things we do. So having a rolling education, not just teaching people about species, although it is much easier to care about tigers when you've got one in front of you. It's much easier to care about any animal when it's in front of you.
But also the wider context. So Tyros, for example, had orangutans, and that helped to spread the message about palm oil and how we should be buying sustainable palm oil rather than palm oil that has been produced by cutting down virgin forest. Having species like snow leopards is a good way of raising awareness about climate change.
You know, they're losing their habitat because the world is warming. Things like that. Having the penguins, talking about sustainable fisheries, how we should be making sure that the fish we eat is caught in a sustainable way.
So we're not emptying our oceans. I think that education side is often overlooked. And then you obviously see the direct education effects of having school groups coming and learning about these issues as well.
Obviously, you mentioned research. It's good for zoos are an excellent resource for being able to do research on endangered species, learning more about them, both from a conservation point of view, but also from a, a veterinary medicine point of view. If you've got zoo vets learning about how to manage these species in a captive setting, then maybe if something does go wrong in the wild, we're in a better position to go out and figure out what to do about it.
So there, unfortunately, I never got the opportunity to do this, but there are lots of zoo vets who go abroad. And teach local vets what we've learned so that they can manage their animals in a in a better way. And that's that's a way we can give back.
I think both of those are really important. My wife is a, is a teacher and of course some people. In poorer areas we will never have that opportunity to, to see even domesticated animals like cattle, you know, there's this amazing stat that some people don't know what, you know, a cow looks like and it's connected with beef, so that sort of education is really important and being able to see some of these animals.
You know, obviously that they won't be able to see in the wild is so important, just for, for general knowledge, they're beautiful creatures. I think they do bring a lot of joy when you see them interacting in groups, . But also, as you say, for those more important issues like global warming and so on, palm oil, it is a really important link because when you've seen a beautiful orangutan, you realise that you want to do everything you can to save the species and I, I actually did a a talk at my wife's school and the the kids also taught me 25 orangutans die every day because they're clearing forests, etc.
So. It it is a it's a really tragic situation and the kids are really upset and annoyed about it and want to, you know, speak out about it. So the educational side is so important and sometimes kids are more passionate about it than adults, aren't they?
Yeah, they, they often are, I think. And so it's, it's not to say there aren't bad zoos out there. There definitely are.
And it's not to say that every animal who lives in the zoo has a perfect life, because they definitely don't. But as I say, I think we can, we can do the best we can with the situation we have. And I think there is a lot of scope for doing good.
I think you've seen that in the research and also zoos being educated themselves. I remember always being upset at Chester Zoo seeing the polar bear because I was a vet student and it would exhibit stereotypic behaviour walking up and down pacing, and there are certain species that you probably just can't keep in the zoo, can you? You need to have the right enclosure, and you need to do a lot to, to mitigate, you know, for stereotypies and just make sure their welfare is as good as we can get it.
So large carnivores and large kind of roaming herbivores are much more difficult to keep in a welfare friendly manner in zoos. And again, I think you need to balance. How much good are you doing?
With having holding those species that if you are successfully breeding a refuse population, successfully raising awareness about the issues. Then, in a, a kind of utilitarian way, is the, the good we're doing outweighing the bad. I think that's a really difficult balance, and it's something you need to constantly evaluate.
And if it starts to tip more towards the bad, something needs to change. Yeah, I think this is the real. Important, isn't it, the morality and.
You can tend to think that everything is black and white, but I think as you get older and hopefully a bit wiser you realise that there's so much stuff that's in the middle that's grey, isn't it? And it's a, it's a difficult decision to to sometimes take. No, I think it's, it's really important and it's great that you're coming into harper with that very practical knowledge, both in traditional and non-traditional small animals to be able to .
To teach the students, I'm sure they're very, maybe they don't realise it, but they're very fortunate to have somebody like you at the vet school imparting your, your knowledge that you've learned over the last decade. There you are. I'm determined to make you feel slightly old as well, Lindsey.
It's a backhanded compliment. Well, it depends. Some days when my back is playing up, I do feel very old, but I've been to Pilates last night, so I'm feeling all right at the minute.
This is what I need to take up. I still do a bit of running and I'm threatening cause flexibility and strength is something that you need as you get a bit older. I don't do enough of it, so yeah, the Pilates sounds very sensible.
Yes. I highly recommend it to any vet. If you've done surgery where you're hunched over a table, I highly recommend it.
Lindsay, it is another piece of very good advice. I always say with webinars and podcasts, if I can learn one thing, then it's been a useful 1 hour or half hour, and of course if you can take it into clinical practise, so, my, my top ones from, from this podcast are definitely non-traditional companion animals, unpacking a llama and . Convincing myself that I really should go on a Pilates class, so Lindsay, thank you so much, it's been absolutely splendid.
Thanks for all the great work that you're doing up at Harper Keel and look forward to seeing you soon. Lovely, thank you ever so much for having me, it's been great. Thanks Lindsay.
Thanks everyone for listening. This has been Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vets. This has been Vet Chat.
Hope you enjoy it and take care.
