Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. In this series we're gonna be talking about sustainability. As you know, it's a big passion of myself, Anna, the webinar vet.

It's our focus for the year, how we regenerate in the veterinary world, and we're very fortunate today to have XPVA president, that's only one of the hats that he wears, Simon Doherty with us. Great to have you on, Simon. Thanks, Anthony.

Simon, I know this has been a big passion of yours during your BBA year sustainability, but also bringing that into One Health, because obviously sustainability is really, and One Health is all around medical veterinary, but very much tied in with the environment as well, isn't it? So, yeah, tell us a little bit, how, first of all, did you get interested in being a vet and sustainability and why you've found yourself where you are now, a little bit of a history. Yeah, so look, I'll get the, the, the brief history of, of Simon Doherty, you know, it start, I guess it all sort of started when I was, yeah, I was one of those people where, you know, it kind of all started when I was, you know, 4 or 5.

I was living in rural County Down. My dad was a biology teacher. We used to go out for walks at the weekend and, and certainly at that stage we lived in a market town called Newtownards, just outside Belfast.

You know, in the, in the mid-1970s, you know, with the Troubles in, in Belfast in particular and sort of throughout Northern Ireland, a lot of people were moving out of Belfast and, and into the, the surrounding towns and, and Newtownards was one of those. So it was growing quite, quite, quite rapidly. My dad was a biology teacher, but where we lived just on the, on the, on the edge of Newtownards, we, you know, we were still at that sort of interface with the countryside and The cows used to literally come down there, you know, past our house to, to go in for milking in the afternoon.

And, and from a very young age, I just had that absolute passion for, for particularly farm animals and horses. We didn't, we didn't even have a cat or a dog at home, but particularly farm animals and horses. And I suppose skip forward a few years, I, I, you know, when I was old enough to realise that there was no family farm coming in my direction, I, I, I'd very much kind of turned my focus on becoming a farm animal vet.

And I guess that then, you know, led me into the career into my, you know, career as a, as a farm animal vet. And it came out the end of, of vet school very much wanting to go into progressive farm animal practise and particularly dairy practise. Worked for a while in Scotland, and then moved home to, to Northern Ireland.

And, I have to say I really, really enjoyed my time in, in general practise, but I unfortunately ruptured a ligament in my back and, and literally fell out of farm animal practise. And at that stage, went into the veterinary research lab at Stormont. I was involved for a couple of years in setting up Veterinary Northern Ireland, but then moved into a role at the vet lab at Stormont.

And I guess it was during that time that my focus changed. I was working in virology, I had my, I had the opportunity to literally dip my toe in aquaculture. And I guess I, I, it was that realisation that my interest was not just about farm animals themselves, but, but in terms of food production and the livestock involvement in, in food production.

And, you know, I started then realising that, you know, there was lots of talk, particularly in the aquaculture sector, there was lots of talk about the environmental impact. And I suppose in more recent years been a lot of talk about the environmental impact of, of livestock, agriculture as well. And that then took me on a bit of a journey.

I'd left general practise, I was working in research, but I kind of could see that where there was that, you know, I, I wouldn't necessarily have said I had any huge interest in veterinary public health per se, but, you know, realising that there was that interface between people, animals, and the environment, and, and that sparked my interest in what, you know, we now coin the phrase one health. And obviously then more recently, there's been so much focus then on sustainability and what we, you know, we can have a whole podcast just talking about sustainability, but you know, it's not just the environmental aspects, it's the economic aspects as well, and, and helping farmers to make, sometimes making those tough decisions about spending lots of money on diagnostics and treatment versus culling an animal, you know, and, and, and, but, but to take that a stage further then looking at the environmental aspects sort of built into that whole equation as well. And I very much kind of see that link between one health and sustainability is sort of really been the focus of what I've been doing over over the last few years and, and, you know, sort of through my BVA role and, and sort of more recently into my role with FVE in the Food safety and sustainability working group and obviously with VETSstain as well.

But it's yeah, that, that's kind of where my passion came from. And I suppose the realisation that along the way, a lot of what we do in aquaculture is very similar to what we do in agriculture in terms of controlling diseases. And being able to use my background in agriculture, and livestock production in the aquaculture setting has been, has been a really interesting transition as well.

And then right through to where I am today, as I came out of the BVA role, I took up a position then at the Institute of Global Food Security at Queen's University in Belfast. And there I split my time between doing a bit of teaching. I support a number of research, portfolios.

I, I don't have a research portfolio of my own. I'm a what's called the senior lecturer of education, so my focus is, is on teaching. I'm involved with the new proposal for, a vet school in Northern Ireland, and we're, we're looking at whether that is sustainable.

And, yeah, so that's, that's kind of my role, but I'm obviously I have the, the privilege of working with people like, Professor Chris Elliott who wrote up the horsemeat scandal, and, you know, people like Professor Nigel Scullen, Professor Neveh O'Connell, who does a lot of work, on, on welfare. so really, you know, I'm working with a really fantastic team, Eric Morgan, who's a veterinary parasitologist, who came from Bristol, Elias Kourouzakis, who's also a vet, came to us from Newcastle and was formerly at SRUC. So we have a really powerful team working on, food security, food safety, at Queen's and it's a real privilege to be a part of that.

Food security is so important, isn't it, because at the recent WVA symposium on food security that we did, you know, it's very much about You know, being able to feed upwards of 9, 10 billion in the next 2030, 40 years, but also sustaining the planet because there is this thing sometimes that you can continue to make use of the planet and you don't see the planet as part of your balance sheet or your profit and loss. But I know obviously food security unfortunately often is, is most fragile in. Developing countries that are obviously struggling with global warming, they're warm countries anyway, obviously global warming, if we're going, you know, 1 degree, 1.5 degrees above where we were pre-industrially, a lot of that global warming is obviously being caused by nations like the UK.

Yesterday I, I saw a note about, Most of the rubbish, most of the plastic we produce, we actually just export to other countries rather than getting rid of it ourselves. But I, I know you're very intimately involved in, in the food security side, obviously with your job. But also with the charity that you're very involved in, send a cow, I'm gonna be a bit controversial and say, you know, what about sending a goat as well, and, and do we just all go vegan and don't eat any animals at all, so Simon, tell me what you think about that.

Yeah, so like, you know, I've been involved now with with Send a cow for probably about, you know, probably about 15 years now, as a veterinary advisor, I, I sit on the, on the board as a, as a trustee, and, I've also been an ambassador, you know, in the past and, and done a lot of sort of talks to church and community groups and and the sort of primary and secondary schools about, about what we work, how we, how we work. 32 years ago, whenever the organisation was founded, it was almost a bit of a political statement. It was in reaction to CAP reform that a group of dairy farmers in the southwest of England, said, look, you know, we're, we're being told to because of the butter mountains and the milk lakes, we've been told to get rid of these perfectly healthy animals, but yet there's millions of people in the world who are starving.

And it was at that stage that they, you know, as I say, it was a bit of a political statement. They chartered a jumbo jet and, and, and sent a bunch of in calf heifers to Uganda, and, and send a cow was literally born. They got a big write up in the Daily Telegraph and it really captured the, the nation's imagination, that this, you know, you know, sending cows, to, to rural Africa could actually be a.

You know, a sustainable, way of, of, of helping these, these communities out. Now clearly, you know, sending cows on planes is not sustainable and and in fact it was BSE that really kind of put an end to the live exports of those in calf heifers. But by that stage, Sendaka had really kind of got a bit of a grip on, on what it what it was doing and, and obviously things like artificial insemination technology had also moved along, and it was an awful lot easier to ship a flask of semen than it was to ship even a single in calf heffer.

And, and so the, the, the organisation changed and very much was focused on training and, you know, and, and very much looking at that sort of sustainability piece from quite an early stage. So the model that we know, and, and of course, you know, 32 years later we're stuck with this send, send a cow name and, and, and we start off by saying, yes, we'll send a cow, but we don't actually send cows anymore. So it's a, it's a name that sticks in people's heads, but, but actually it doesn't really describe what we're doing and we're actually going through a bit of a name change process at the minute within the organisation.

But it is very much now about a mixture of gender empowerment of looking at organic horticulture. So we're, we're encouraging the smallholder farms that farmers that we work with to look at diversification into different crops. We're teaching them some of those organic horticultural techniques like the use of manure and the use of composting to improve soil structure.

And that in turn helps them with their resilience in terms of climate change. And we talked now, you know, we talked about global warming, then it was sort of climate change and, and, and so on. And, and now we're looking at, you know, obviously a climate emergency, but that climate change piece, what does that mean in in in sub-Saharan Africa?

Well, it means that quite often the temperatures are, are rising, but it also means that the rains are coming later, they're a bit more unpredictable. And quite often when they do come, they're much more severe. And what they're doing is then washing away the topsoils and and things like that.

So by, by looking at manure usage and and composting, we're helping to improve soil structure by looking at different types of crops that will fix nitrogen, without the need for artificial fertiliser. We're we're improving that soil nutrition as well as the soil quality. And we're also then helping those families, where there are livestock, in their small holdings, to, to be able to sustainably rear those livestock, more, more fully.

But of course, I was gonna say also it's very cultural to own livestock in Africa isn't it? So if you've got a certain number of cows or a certain number of goats, I think it's still seen as a kind of your wealth, whereas obviously having 50, not very. Healthy cattle is not as good as having 20 really healthy ones, is it?

So is that a problem as well? Yeah, and certainly for the smallholder farmers that we're working with, those numbers are probably a bit lower. It's encouraging people to think that rather than having 10.

Unproductive skinny cows that, that actually having, you know, maybe half a dozen, goats might actually suit them better. And although we're we're still sort of, you know, as I say, stuck with the Seokow name for the time being, we, you know, we do a lot of work with small ruminants as well, and, and certainly in terms of the sustainability piece, there's, you know, there's a lot, a lot, a lot to be said for that. You know, in the, in that sort of smallholder context.

So yeah, it's, it's very much about looking and you're right, Anthony, the cultural element is really important. You know, it's all very well for us to say, well, you know, you, you know, you should go completely vegan. From a social, cultural aspect, dairy and eggs are quite an important, mechanism for, reducing the amount of stunting in in children and .

And getting that sort of those protein levels on board. Yes, we're certainly encouraging them and, and teaching them and providing seeds for growing all sorts of different crops, but on the livestock side, we're encouraging them then to be able to, feed their poultry, so they're, you know, producing better quality eggs more regularly or looking after their, You know, their, their goats or their cattle, in order that they are producing not just enough milk for the calf or for the kid, but enough for the family and possibly even enough to sell. And once they have a bit to sell alongside possibly some value crops like coffee, for example, and maybe grow some coffee around the edge of their plantation.

Once they have that those products to sell, they can then pay for school books and school uniforms and get the kids into school. And it's very much, you know, about, you know, we, we, the cliche is, you know, we're giving them a hand up rather than a handout, but we're helping these families to help themselves in a sustainable fashion. It's not to take away from the emergency aid that you see Christian Aid or Oxfam or, or, you know, other organisations getting involved in in the emergency situation.

But in terms of that sort of long term development and helping those communities and families to lift themselves out of poverty, certainly, you know, that's why I've become very passionate about the work of Sendokan. Again, going back, we did, and I know you're aware of this as well, the the WBA Food Security symposium a month or so ago. And it was very clear from that that you know, the use of eggs and milk and obviously sometimes meat is really important and and the stunting of children is a is a real problem.

But yet also at the same time, I just recently read a book called Factfulness. And telling us that actually, you know, there's a lot of positive things going on, people like Sendaka are doing great work. You know, poverty has reduced massively.

I am worried that our government has unfortunately welched on its agreement on, on aid just recently, and I think COVID may have a, a deleterious effect on that, but broadly, we have been marching in the right direction. The the worry sometimes is whether the environment suffers and. I was known as that kid at school that was more interested in the environment and animals than people, but actually, if the environment isn't right, then it's really difficult for people to thrive and, you know, certainly animals as well, isn't it?

Yeah, and do you know, we see some of the same, some of the same principles that we work to within Sendaka with our communities and the, you know, we work in 6 countries in sub-Saharan Africa and You know, a lot of those are based on similar principles that, you know, that we work to here. I, I've had the privilege over the last few years when I was, I suppose when I was more when I was still in practise, but I became interested in cow signals, and the cow signals training company, that, that worked from, from the Netherlands and the, the. Sort of in many ways back to basic animal husbandry principles that they work to.

Simon, we have a webinar on that as well, just a little plug there we there. I mean, certainly, you know, I've got to know Yip Dreesen really well over the last sort of 20 years or so, and you know, Yip's a fantastic guy and really what he's doing is You know, it was I guess his focus 10 years ago was much more on on sort of productivity and lifetime productivity of dairy cows. More recently, I think it has become more about sustainability because it's, it's a, it's a factor of not just that lifetime productivity, but what the environmental impact is of that and looking.

And also the welfare of the, of the cow, of course, you know, the cow, you know, get hyper produced for 4 or 5 years and then, you know, it's called, or, or can we give this cow a nicer life over 789 years, albeit with slightly lower milk production. And that very much fits in with, you know, with what's what you're seeing in agriculture at the minute, much more focus on regenerative agriculture and, and, and, you know, even high producing sort of, you know, cutting edge progressive dairy farmers, if you want to put it that way, you know, looking at sort of mixed swards and and the biodiversity, the importance of biodiversity. Obviously the big debate that we're all having at the minute around the use of sort of routine use of parasiticides, you know, both in animals but also in farm animals, you know, we know that, you know, a lot of the routinely used sort of poon type products for, you know, that we just use routinely, will also have effects on dung beetles.

You know how important dung beetles are in terms of soil structure and, and so. It it is, it's, it's, we're starting to look at the holistic system, you know, I, it's interesting, I have to say I have complete admiration. My dad's in hospital at the minute and I have complete admiration for, you know, for the NHS and obviously there's been a lot of discussion with about the NHS throughout COVID, .

But the NHS is still a little bit, you know, my dad's got a dodgy hip and he's got an orthopaedics team looking at that. He's, he's had some problems with his guts and he's got a surgeon who's taken him through surgery about a month ago and that. And he's taken a bit of a dip recently and he's, he's, you know, gone into the emergency department and he's been treated by a medical team for that.

And sometimes we don't see necessarily, and we can get a bit frustrated that it's not just as joined up as it should be. But looking at that sort of holistic piece, you know, is what we, we need to do. And I think we I think we are brilliant at that as vets, and I think we really underestimate.

And I think in terms of the veterinary role and sustainability, I think we have a really key part to play because we can bring that skill set. The medics have a tendency, and this isn't, it's not a You know, it's not a, I'm not having a dig at the medical profession, but they tend to become so specialised that they forget about that sometimes that overall look. And I think when we come out the back of COVID, I think there really is going to be a role for vets and their interests in epidemiology and virology and vaccinology and contingency planning and I mean we learned so much about contingency planning after the foot and mouth disease outbreak in 2001.

I think we bring a lot of that skill in in terms of scaling up diagnostics or or accelerating vaccine production. We bring a lot of those skills to the, to the game and and I don't think it's any mistake that the, you know, chief executive of, of Pfizer is, is a vet, you know. It's good, it's good.

Well, yeah, I, we could, we could talk a lot about that, but . Moving on, finally, obviously, you know, I know you're very involved in vet sustain and obviously we do webinars if people haven't heard those, you know, please go over and and look at them, we've had some excellent speakers. But if we brought it very much to home now and said, you know, as vets, and I know there will perhaps be other people listening to this as well as, you know, vets and nurses, but what are maybe your two or three tips that you think we as vets should be doing to really help with that regeneration of, of the veterinary world?

Look, I, I think, I think Anthony, you know, I see very much one health as being the journey and sustainability as being the end goal. It's what we're trying to achieve, you know, if you want to imagine in some ways, you know, sustainability being this sort of perfect balance of You know, well-being, it's a factor of health and welfare, of economics, of environmental impact and so on and so forth, and one health as being the journey to get us there. When we break down one health, it's not just people, animals, the environment, it's the transdisciplinary.

And I think we all have an opportunity to learn from one another. So I suppose one of my top tips I suppose would be look at where you can learn from, you know, we, we tend to become quite siloed in whatever we're doing, whether we're farm vets or equine vets or small animal vets. I think take the opportunity to learn from others, you know, and that applies to vet nurses and and practise staff, I think as well.

And look at where we can, you know, cherry pick the best of what other people are doing and learn from that. So that would be one thing, and whether that's about flexible working, you know, we're doing so much about, you know, good workplace and or whether it's about sort of sustainability and, you know, in the, in the sort of environmental sense and and how we can reduce our inputs and our use of single-use plastics and all the rest of it. You know, but learning from what what other professions are doing, and I think the medical profession can also learn from us.

So it's about sharing some of that information. I was talking recently to a lady who's qualified as, a nurse and a veterinary nurse, and she was telling me about an initiative where they brought nurses and veterinary nurses together in a bandaging clinic, to look and You know, the nurses, the human nurses in the bandaging clinic were working away and putting these bandages on and dressing people coming through, you know, the patients coming through the clinic. And the vet nurses were absolutely horrified, and it was just like, had you any idea how much that stuff costs, let alone how much it is to, you know, get rid of.

And it's just, it's about learning, you know, across disciplines, that's probably a top one. Look, in terms of, in terms of sustainability, I think even within the vet profession, we have a lot to learn from, from one another. This is in some ways quite a new area, but there's a lot of what we're doing is already about sustainability.

You know, put your waist in the correct streams. Think about what anaesthetic circuits you're using, you know, think about how you're, you know, treating your instruments or your, your use of, of drapes or cloths or, you know, gowns and gloves and masks and all the rest of it. You know, there's a lot, you know, that they Greener practise working group are producing and obviously we would direct you towards our checklist, which was co-produced by vet sustain with BVA, BVNA and spivs involved in that.

And those are, you know, encouraging people to think about small steps that they can take in sustainability. And, and, and I guess, you know, a third tip I would say, look, remain engaged, you know, if you're a member of BSAVA or Beaver, we're working as vet sustain, we're working with, with them, we're working with BVA or working with Fish Vett Group at the minute on producing, a policy position on sustainable aquaculture. So by all means, you know, get, get involved and and get, you know, remain engaged with the veterinary associations, and with what's going on through vet sustain as we continue to develop and release resources.

We're, we're pulling together the expertise from all of the, the different, organisations and all of the different, you know, professional bodies that are out there, to, to, to work with, but, you know, just stay engaged. And start taking some small steps, identify some small steps, look at what you're doing, and I think as, apart from anything else as vets, we can, you know, we're professionals, we have a scientific evidence-based background. We are in a perfect position to communicate and to set an example to others in the in the general public, even just within our own lives, let alone within our professional practise and whatever that might be.

I think Simon, you know, the, the, the Greenpeace slogan, acts locally, think globally is is a brilliant sort of. Yeah. Encompasses all of that, doesn't it?

No, that's been really good. I, you know, a final thing I saw in the Vet Times recently was Linnaeus of phased out nitrous oxide, which of course we know is a hugely Huge pollutant greenhouse gas. So I, I think there are lots of positive things and it's great, you know, seeing what you're doing that sustain with with everybody else as well.

Really enjoyed today's talk. I think it's, it's so important the work that you are doing it send a cow, send a goats. Send a coffee bean, whatever, whatever you're gonna call up with.

Yeah. But you know, I really appreciate and thank you for the great work that you're doing there along with all the colleagues at Sendakow and Vett Sustain as well. So thanks for coming on and hopefully see you soon in a physical sense.

Absolutely. Take care, thanks Simon. Bye bye.