Hi there and welcome to Vet Chat, a new podcast for the veterinary profession brought to you by the webinar vet. We're gonna discuss all things from clinical cases to hot topical debates. I'm your host Ben Sweeney, and for the first time in my life over the episodes ahead of us, I'm aiming to listen more than I talk, and I can't wait for you to join me for the adventure.

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. Suffice to say, my next guest today has enjoyed the full extent of a diverse career and she's only been qualified for 10 years. From being a smallies and exotics vet to lab animal work and an internship at Davey's vet Specialist.

She's had her own niche business providing healthcare to doggy daycares. She's the in-house vet to pet nutrition startup Button up Box. She's done vet on set gigs mixing with the likes of Tom Hardy and has her own CBD brand that she's developed with her partner.

With a degree in microbiology, she can literally tell you anything you want to know about dog poop, and she's worked as a governess to the Saudi royal family. She was involved in the near death experience of a home and away star in an incident involving a rhino and a gate that was accidentally left open. Kieran Clark, thank you so much for joining me and I'm really looking forward to our chat.

I think question one and most importantly, Is Tom Hardy as fit as everybody thinks? Yes, oh my goodness, I mean, I'll keep it clean, but, but yes, he's quite dreamy. And I mean obviously I was involved with him and dogs and put Tom Hardy and some battery rescue dogs together and Yeah, yeah, pulses go weakened and such.

I know. So you're, you're obviously, you obviously have got a great connection to new age pet owners and you know, you, you describe yourself, you know, as a, as a millennial pet parent. So, you know, how are millennial pet owners different to those sorts.

The generations that have gone before us. See, I'm not sure they and I'm just going to say we are a whole lot different. So I have a new puppy at the moment.

I do refer to myself as a pet parent. I even call myself a dog mom, . But I think that we've always had this relationship, this very close relationship with our pets, be it the dog mom or or cats or or goldfish or whatever it is, and the difference is ownership of a pet versus a relationship with a pet.

And I think whether you were, you know, a baby boomer or a millennial or a Generation Z. You've always been a pet parent, the phrase just wasn't around. Now I do think there are different expectations of veterinary practise these days.

I don't think that is a whole lot to do with someone ascribing themselves or describing themselves. To be a dog mom. So when you say sort of the expectations are different in veterinary practise today, is that purely just, you know, a a sign of how far we've come in practise, do you think, and is that something that, you know, is experienced across the board?

I think so and and I think obviously with the rise of certain programmes with super vets and extraordinary vets and talented vets that their that their expectations have been have been raised in that in that regard. I don't think we should be scorning the pet parents and actually I think sometimes many vets do when when we use this phrase, there's a great deal of judgement and scorn and eyes thrown up to heaven. But but they're no different to the older generation.

I really don't think so. Yeah, I think there is that sort of, you know, certainly we see enough older people whose, you know, pet is in such an invaluable part of their life and gives that element of freedom, that, you know, that, that, that still requires them to be active and doing stuff every day. And at the same time, that younger generation, it's often their first sort of steps into independence almost where they're having it.

A pet, and I think, you know, obviously something that we've had to do as practises and as a profession is, is evolve how we communicate with that clientele and, you know, do you kind of find out in all of your various different hats that you wear, you know, is there a better way that we can engage with, with the modern age of pet owner? So I certainly think that we can, as vets, I think we can do customer experience a little bit better. Now that I think is a luxury and the luxury is time and time is not something that many vets in clinical practise have.

Now, that's what I enjoy with my niche little business vet in the city. I can dedicate a lot of time to my my individual pet parents, and I do, I call them that. I don't call them my clients or customers, and with that, I have 100% retention on my from my like client base, and it's just trying to think like a pet parent, give them the experience that you think you would want, and go a little bit above and beyond.

But honestly, I, I really appreciate this. This is a luxury. Yeah, and and obviously what you're doing with with vets in the city is, you know, it's a very bespoke experience almost for, for, for.

For pet owners and you know, what is it, what, what is it that you do, you know, in in vetting the city, what, what does that service encompass? So this is super niche, it doesn't exist anywhere else in the UK. It was kind of just an idea I had and I ran with it.

So, and I think this is something that would only really work in the the great metropolitan areas like like London or or perhaps Manchester, . We are probably familiar with the term doggy daycare. So doggy daycare is essentially creche for dogs where dogs go off to the countryside for the day, play around with their pals, and then go home nice and tired and rested to their owner at the end of the day.

I go out to doggy daycares on a monthly basis and I deliver a health, a primary preventative healthcare service. So for example, I go out to Buddy's Doggy Daycare. Hi buddies, you've got a plug there.

I go out to parties, on the, the first day of the month, and, I check all my dogs. I do a full, health and weight check. I do a nutritional assessment, with the parents, and I just give them their primary preventative care, so vaccines, free worming, and.

At the end of the day, I write up a health report, email that off to the owner. I often include, sorry I said owner there, but yes, email that off and I also include nice photographs and let them know how they were that day. Now the nice thing about seeing all these dogs on a regular basis is that first of all, they get to know me, they trust me, they don't know I'm the VET I'm just a nice Irish lady that arrives armed with treats.

So from a stress point of view, they don't feel so panicked. But equally I pick up on small little subtle changes, so weight changes, small little lumps to bumps, changes in vision or or eye health, . And if there is a concern, I then refer back to the pet parent, but then also liaise with the primary vet.

So I'm not taking away the primary vet's business. So, if Doggy requires a dental or an FMA for a lump and bump, then we communicate together. And what I find quite quite strange or puzzling and maybe even a little bit concerning.

If I recommend a dental, 95% of those pet parents will go back to their primary vet and do that dental. But I'm using the same terms and the same same phrases when I'm in clinical practise. And I think our experience when we're recommending dentals is that maybe what like 20% of people will actually book one in within 3 months.

So to me that raises a small amount of concerns with regards a little bit of distrust within the veterinary community, or sorry, with the vet profession. Some pet parents don't believe that we're always recommending things because the pet needs it, but sometimes because there's financial motivation behind it. And now I have drifted a little bit away from what I actually do, but that is one experience I've certainly found.

No, and I think that's interesting because there's obviously, you know, there's data published and there's research into the fact that, you know, we are an incredibly trusted profession. But I think, you know, we do have to, I think, you know, and, and rightly so, we have to, you know, evidence our findings and stuff, and I think unfortunately, as you point out, in a lot of practises, people are incredibly time poor, and actually being able to go through everything you find on a, on a, on a clinical exam. Can sometimes be almost exhaustive and you're just putting yourself under the clock and the pressure and you say, well, actually, look, you know, it's got dental disease, it needs a dental on we trot, and then, you know, you produce your 500 pound estimate, and you can certainly understand how an owner might well be bowled over by that.

So, obviously there's this potential, given the fact that, you know, with these kinds of endeavours, you, you almost have that tertiary touch point for a practise to have. With a a client or a pet parent or an owner, and you know, from that side of things, do you feel this is something that we could potentially utilise better as a profession? Only if we have time, and time is not something that is offered to many vet practises.

I'm very lucky that I still work in in clinical practises in London, and we have long appointment times. And we're allowed, we're we're given that opportunity, but I do believe, I mean economics are going to come down to it as well if, if a practise is going to insist on 10 minute appointment times, that customer is not going to have a good experience. It's it's just not possible for for a vet to relay all of that positively in such a short period of time.

Yeah, and I think, you know, certainly from that side of things, as you say, you know, time is, is key. Really, to that building that trust and that relationship with with owners from that side of things and obviously, you know, with your involvement in, in these sort of essentially sort of health plans within that the these daycare environments, you're gonna get a a a great insight into what's going on and certainly one of the changes that we have noticed over this last decade is this change in sort of nutrition. Yes.

With our pets, and obviously you've got your involvement with button up Box, and, and of course, you know, there's other companies like Tails that have popped up and are really focusing on this sort of, you know, bespoke, pet nutrition plan, er, for people. And, and certainly, you know, as we look to care for ourselves, in a, in a sort of more. Thoughtful manner, people do seem to be doing that in their pets, and sort of, you know, what, what sort of drivers have you noticed in that, and do you feel as though that is making an impact on pet health?

So you're absolutely right, I think as people, there is this ongoing reappraisal of our own nutrition and our own diets, and it's only natural that that is then falling onto our pets as well. People are questioning what's in pet food a whole lot more. Now whether that's due to the rise of Netflix type documentaries.

So we've seen lots of human-based ones like What the Health, Cowspiracy, there is a pet food one called Pet Fools. Now I'm not the greatest fan of this particular documentary, I think it's quite flawed, but these things do exist, and so people are pushing and questioning. The, the nutrition sort of sphere a whole lot more.

With regards, bespoke nutrition, we're a whole lot, we're, we're quite far off that I think. I think we can definitely tailor our, feeding guidelines and our calorie content a whole lot better, particularly when we consider that over 50% of dogs in the UK are overweight. Now whether that's due to, Owner or pet parent factors or just poor feeding guidelines, that's something that we can have a positive impact on the health of our pets.

And I think, you know, obviously sort of one of the things that you touched on earlier was this sort of customer experience and user experience and, and again I think so much of this boils down to that dissemination of information. Through to our, our, our pet owners and and our pet parents and, you know, it's, how, how do we, How do we achieve that in, in the modern age, you know, is that something where we maybe need to be utilising social media a bit better, you know, what, what can we do as, as, you know, busy veterinary professionals to, to, to utilise these platforms and get that information out there. So I find this is actually a really tough one because there is a significant degree of distrust when it comes to pets selling food.

And I'm not just saying that as a primary vet, I'm saying that. With the experience from Butternutut Box, from, you know, listening to a lot of, a lot of customers through my experience of social media, . And so forums, blogs, Instagram, there is, as I said, there is distrust with vets selling food.

So there is a sentiment that students have been bought out by the large companies, the Nestles, the Purinas, Roanins. Again, it's financial motivation to be selling these foods. I think we can do better when it comes to transparency, of these things that we're selling.

It's a really, really tough one, and I don't think there's an easy answer. And I think, certainly, you know, something that's always sort of been baffling for me is that I don't remember growing up around a particularly unhealthy dog population. You know, sort of I'm in my mid-thirties, and when I look at it, I think actually, do you know what, our family dogs when I was a kid were living till they were 7.

1718, and, and I have to say, you know, being the, stereotypical terrible owner, most of our dogs grew up on, you know, sort of the scraps that were left over from dinner or beans on toast and different bits and bobs like that. Mine too, absolutely, but if you think about it, that was really high quality food. We were eating that, we were cooking that, .

Now perhaps it wasn't complete and balanced nutrition, but it was very high quality. And I do think if we look at the quality of ingredients that are used in some of the pet foods, certainly they are lesser quality ingredients. There is a lot of research around the digestibility of it, and how that can be really quite poor and Yeah, there, I mean, was there anything as fit as a as a butcher's dog back in the day?

Probably not. Yeah, no, I think that's quite, it's quite a good way of putting it, really, isn't it, when you think about it, and it's certainly where the phrase obviously comes from. And I think, you know, there's this sort of, again, there's, I think a really interesting trend in society now for people to actually question medications that are being given, you know, there's there's almost that.

Anticipation by clients when they go to a vet now to be to be given medications, because, well, you know, I'm paying for a consult and things like that, and I think a lot of vets are becoming better at saying, well, actually, you know, we're not going to give this because at this particular moment they're they're they're not in. But actually, you know, justifying that, that reasoning to pet owners, and obviously in that area, one of the big questions is long-term pain relief, you know, we've seen fantastic initiatives like, you know, canine arthritis management that's gained a lot of traction in the last few years. And it's disseminating more and more information to to owners in our particular sphere, but certainly from, from my experience, I've certainly had one where I've seen, my, my great auntie who has multiple issues with chronic pain, who's switched her attentions to CBD oil, and is now no longer using any traditional painkillers from that side of things, and you know, she would say herself that she's living her best life as it were, you know, as a as an 87 year old and you know, is is pain free.

Certainly, you know, externally looking in, that seems to, that, that seems to be, you know, really obvious within that, but obviously, you know, in, in the veterinary sphere, it's something that's particularly unregulated, but, but personally I would look at it and say, well, you know, it's got great potential for us as a profession and, you know, obviously you've got a, your CBD or your brand, and I, I wonder what your take on it was. Obviously you've gone down that avenue because of a perceived benefit. Yeah, so, first of all, I'm just going to comment on Hannah Cain and canine arthritis management.

I am her biggest fan. She has been such an inspiration. I think it's amazing what she's created, and it's a really great example of providing a brilliant pet parent platform, .

Yeah, I, I, I'm just such a fan. I love her. And, and one of the things that she focuses on a lot is time and how you just need more and more time.

Anyhow, all of my poor little arthritic dogs, I write it on a piece of paper, go to this website. OK, moving on to CBD. So yes, I've been bitten by the business bug, but actually CBD is not something I intended to develop.

It was something that just developed that just sort of grew. I suppose I'm very lucky in that a lot of pet parents feel that they can ask me about these controversial type of things, whereas perhaps they feel they might be a little bit judged by some vets if they bring up alternative type therapies such as CBD or acupuncture, all of this sort of stuff. So I had in the space of about two weeks.

Maybe 10 different parents were asking me about CBD whether it was for arthritic conditions or cancers or canine epilepsy and I I just felt really embarrassed because I didn't know. I didn't know what to tell them, but I wanted to give them some sort of direction or an answer. So I I just started looking into it, learning a little bit more about the endo cannabinoid system, .

Reading papers coming out of Cornell, some really good studies coming from there and I'm like, OK, there is some, there's definitely some some virtues to to the supplement. Let me find something that I can start to recommend. Now this was pre VMD regulations, but anyhow I started looking into the UK market, and the more I read about it and the more I learned, I couldn't find a.

That I would happily use on my dog or recommend to to an owner. So I started looking into sourcing it. It's, it's scary how unregulated CBD is.

Now whether that's coming from the animal sphere or the human sphere, basically, if you have 2 grammes in your pocket on Monday morning and you do a quick Google search, by Friday afternoon. You could have a product bottled, branded, and shipped to your home. Just like that.

However, that is coming from completely unregulated, untested sources. It's coming from open-ended sort of suppliers that are cashing in on this, you know, this absolutely phenomenal industry. I spent about 8 months searching for the best source and supplier I could find, and my products coming from Switzerland, .

I heard a joke that it sounds more like a chocolate than a supplement because it's single origin, organic and it is rigorously lab tested. OK, maybe that's not the chocolate bit. But, so here's the regulations in the UK regarding pets or or humans.

A CBD can sit on a shelf as long as the THC level is less than 0.2%. Now.

You can say that on the box. However, no one is going out looking for the certificates of analysis, it is just so badly tested. And of course, you know, you can have different concentrations of CBD.

It can be 5%, it can be 10%, it can be 40%, and it's really important to know the amount of, of CBD or even the spectrum of the, the cannabinoids that are in this, in this bottle with. Potentially very fancy label and a and a hefty price tag that might give you a sense of confidence, but it's not always the case. So yes, I made my own and it's very high quality, it's tested at the source, but then I have an independent UK lab repeat that certificate certificate of analysis, so I can be double, double sure what is in the, in the bottle and what what I'm advertising.

And what, what kind of thing are people using it for? So it is a human product, and it is primarily being used for 3 things. One, pain management, 2, anxiety, and 3, insomnia.

A lot of people are using it just to help them sleep. I think everyone's so busy and so stressed these days that they finds it quite hard to switch off at the end of the night, . Now it is available for use as a prescription for vets.

So yes, under the BMD we are allowed to write prescriptions for CBD. So in that respect, a lot of vets are writing scripts for osteoarthritis because really the the main and the most the most secure amount of evidence is. Is coming from that Cornell study regarding reduction in osteoarthritic pain.

And do you see, you know, do you see a, you know, a potential positive future for that being involved in the vet profession? I should think so. I think as more and more studies are released and there's a lot more trust in CBD as a compound, but then also Regulated high quality CBD on shelves.

I definitely think, you know, in in another 5 years this is something that will be as as widely available and used as any other type of supplement. And I do use the word supplement and not a medicine because that's that's what it is right now. Yes, in the human market we have Savitex, which is used for the, the control of childhood epilepsy, perhaps we could go down that route in, you know, in a number of years' time with regards to veterinary medicine, but, I do think there's going to be a lot less stigma.

And fear surrounding CBD we just need to give us a little bit more time. Yeah, and obviously sort of, you know, customer experience, you know, CBD oil, nutrition, we've covered 3, you know, pretty big topics that associate themselves with this generation, and, and, you know, as you say, you know, other generations as we improve the experience of people with, with vets across the UK but. Are there any other topics or subjects that you think, you know, might well be be pertinent now if or, or, you know, over the next sort of 5 to 10 years may well come to the fore.

I, I definitely think a greater emphasis on veterinary customer experience. Now whether that's in practise or online, I think the the rise in the Babylon vets, not remote healthcare, sorry. Telehealthcare.

I think that's going to be, that's that's going to be quite a thing in the next sort of decade, and it shouldn't be something that's feared. We should embrace it. There there will be positives from these sorts of things, but, but definitely really, really thinking about the experience that our our pet parents and our pet is having whilst they're visiting us at the clinic or or in hospital.

I think that is going to I think it's going to need to improve. Well, I think certainly, you know, that gives us something to to think over for people who've been listening in and I think, you know, we can improve that customer experience and the end user experience, and don't forget a lot of us are doing that really well already, but, you know, if we can facilitate that and, and, and improve standards for the members of the profession, then I think, you know, it really does potentially create a, a really bright future. For us as a profession, and I certainly think, you know, if we can improve standards for those working in it as well, then, you know, it really is, you know, a decade full of opportunity.

So, well, Kiera, thank you so much for joining me. It's been great to chat, and I'm, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing some of these things and how they evolve in the next period of time. Perfect.

Yeah, great to chat then, and look forward to listening to to everyone else's podcast sessions. Thanks for joining us for today's episode of Vet Chat. If you've enjoyed listening to my dulcet scouse tones as I interview people much more intelligent than myself, then please do click follow and join us for future episodes.