Hello, Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vets. Wanting to welcome you to this very special webinar, this round table that we're doing with a stellar cast of veterinary celebrities who are gonna be talking about the links between animal abuse and and . Abuse in the home as well.
Obviously so good to see so many of you coming to listening because this is such an important topic, and I, I'm going to introduce Vicky and the rest of the panel, and Vicky will then be leading the discussion, going over various scenarios that, may be light bulb moments for some of you, you know, I've obviously listened to the team at the Linx group before, and it has been very enlightening for me about things that, You know, I may have missed in the past as well. So, Vicky Betton is policy and campaigns manager at the PDSA and as I say, we'll be chairing the rest of the session. Paula Boyden obviously, again, very well known to, to many of you as, as the veterinary director of the Dogs Trust, but is also the chair of the Lins Group.
And then we've got Sean Taylor, who's an independent veterinary forensic clinician, which I think is going to be really fascinating to have Sean's input on some of these discussions. Wendy in a former life, had to, look after my practise when I sold it to the, to the White Cross Group, but still lives and, and, has lived to tell the tale, and is the honorary secretary of the Lynx Group, so it's great to have Wendy on, representing obviously Scotland as well as Mike. Mike Flynn is Chief Superintendent at the er Scottish SPCA.
And then, finally we've got Caroline Allan, er, making up the, the cast for today. She is the chief veterinary officer at the RSPCA so thank you so much, all of you agreeing, you know, to come on to the webinar that it's such a, an amazingly important area. I know with COVID cases of domestic abuse, you know, have been going up, so I think it's a really important time to discuss this and Vicky, I'm gonna, Pass it over to you, I'm gonna mute myself and people will be glad to also take myself off the video, so that I'm not a distraction, but I will be listening in intently to the discussion, so over to you, Vicky.
Oh, thank you very much, Antony, and, and thank you everyone for joining us, at home. We've pulled together some scenarios, which we know will resonate with many of you, and we'll cover many of the key points and then we'll, at the end, answer as many of your questions as we can, as we can get to. And if we can't get to them, then we'll put them on our social channels and websites and, and provide as much information as we can for you and, as much support.
So, to go to our first scenario, I've just had a really difficult consult. The puppy had a broken leg and the history was it fell off the sofa. This doesn't add up to me.
Can you help? So over to Paula. Thanks, Vicky.
I think with a scenario such as this, if, if, you know, as a clinician, you feel something is wrong, there is good reason for that. And, and, you know, if, if we just look at this specific scenario, a puppy or a kitten falling off a sofa, you, you're talking about a, a relatively Low height, and also, particularly puppies and kittens, their bones are still quite cartilaginous. So, for example, we wouldn't expect to see a fracture in those sorts of situations.
But what we really want to do is start looking at the, what are the indicators that that something may not be right, the indicators of non-acciental or deliberate injury. And, and we, we, we have good diagnostic indicators, thanks to some research that Tella Monroe did, over 20 years ago now. This was published in a series of papers in the Journal of Small Animal practise in 2001.
You won't be at all surprised to hear that those diagnostic indicators are exactly the same as the, the indicators for non accidental injury in a child. So the sorts of things we're looking for is where the history is inconsistent with the injury. And in these cases, generally, the injury is far too severe for the history that's been given.
A discrepant history, and that may be, the same person giving different stories at different times, and this is why it's so important with these cases, that we do speak to, you know, other members of the team that may, may have encountered that client, or it may be different members of the family given different stories, so, you know, the, the the the owner says, I don't know how the dog broke its leg, the small child pipes up and says, well, actually, that kicked. Because it stole some food. So, so again, just to, you know, exploring those possibilities with, with, our colleagues.
And the last one that really should be giving us a strong index of suspicion are repetitive injuries, those animals that keep coming in for, traumatic injuries. And, and the other thing that I would add to that, certainly from, from my experience, is those families that perhaps have multiple pets, particularly if we do. Know what's happened to those pets, pets as well.
Now I appreciate, particularly if it's 6:30 on a Friday night, you've got 5 people in the waiting room. It's not always possible to, to scan all your, all the way back through a clinical history, but particularly if we're getting those presenting signs, you know, hopefully there, there will be an opportunity at some point to look through that history and see if there are any other flags that may just raise awareness for us. Thank you.
Did anyone else want to add anything to that one? All good. OK.
So our second scenario, it's Saturday. An old dog has come in that appears to have been badly neglected. The owner won't put to sleep, but I think the dog is suffering.
I've been told that I have to check with the RCVS before I report, but it's a Saturday and they're closed. What do I do? And we're gonna go to Caroline to start us on those answers.
Thanks, Vicky. I think that's a really interesting question, and you might wonder why we're talking about neglect when this is an NIA webinar. But I do think that there's really a, a sort of spectrum situations that we're talking about.
And neglect itself is a big area that I know does cause concern for vets. It can be that devoted owner making a bad decision because they don't want to lose their anymore. I think something that is, you know, more understandable, but through to really more sort of serious deliberate neglect and cruelty.
And I think that there are gonna be situations that are gonna raise red flags for us and actually raise concerns about other animals and even people. And having spent time with RSPCA inspectors, I know it was really eye-opening for me that, you know, the call might come in about neglect, and you go, and you're sort of, oh, goodness, you know, it's the RSPCA that are here. Where are social services?
And that's not to criticise those, those authorities. It's often the pet that gets noticed by the neighbour, rather than the kids. And I've been involved in scenarios where, you know, the call was about the pet, and that ended up in the children get.
And help. So I think that's a really important point. So, you know, if, if you have got concerns, then I think flag them.
And it's really important to say that the RSPCA and the SSPCA, it's not all about prosecution. That can be what gets in the press, of course, but that's a tiny percentage of what we deal with, the support, the signposting, there's linking to the appropriate authorities. So, you know, that sort of what goes under the radar, but it's really important.
So, I think in situ in situations like these, you know, we're not saying you should be reporting all the time. There are, there are things that you can do by working through the situation with the client, offering support, signposting, you know, there's some great things, the Blue Cross pet bereavement line. Make sure your practise has a folder of useful support services.
But ultimately, it is important to remember that the vet is there as the animal advocate. Because if you don't do it, no one else is. So personally, you know, I'm not so keen on, on, you know, using disclaimers and, and things like that.
I think trying to work through situations. Ultimately, I think if there are concerns, if you, if you're really struggling, you're not expected to be judge and jury, and the RSPCA and the SSPCA are kind of recognised as the appropriate authority. And, you know, there has been a lot of training.
And I think the, the main point of this question was, oh, you know, I want to report something, but I can't speak to the RCBS. And I think the really important thing to say is that you do not need permission. You do not need permission from the college, you don't need permission from the BDS.
The responsibilities and, and the guidance around this is set out really clearly in the Code of Professional conduct and the guidance. And I know it, you know, it's probably a little bit of a dry document, but all vets will remember it coming out as a big fat booklet, but now it's online. It's actually got a good search function.
And I think if You're sort of, you know, with a scenario, go to the code, you know, it has a lot of guidance there and I come on to this a little bit later. It does sort of set that out really clearly. I don't go into too much detail about the law, you know, this is your lunchtime, you don't be hearing about all the details of the law, I'm sure.
But that law does set out the the position of the vet as the animals advocate, you know, there is a legal process, similar in in Scotland and in England, slightly different names to the part of the law, but Yeah, it does say that as a vet, if you certify that an animal, if it's in its own interest to be destroyed, then working with the SSPCA in Scotland, or the police, usually with the support of the RSPCA in England, that, that will happen. So, again, I'm not saying, according to the police, to lots of difficult PTS consults, but being aware of that, that law, of the role of the vet, I think hopefully is an empowering thing. And I think You know, we are there for the animals, that's our in law.
You know, we wouldn't expect probably a doctor to, to ignore an abused child, and, you know, with our, as professionals, I think with, with the responsibilities, you know, with the rights that we have, there does come the responsibilities. So, yeah, I just think, look at the code, you know, have a look at the law, and the RSPCA and SSPCA are there to help. Thanks, Caroline.
Mike, did you have anything to add from a Scottish SPACA's perspective on that one? No, just, what Caroline's saying, the, the code that's attached to the invite to this meeting is pretty comprehensive and it's not to jump to conclusions. And it's always surprised me how little the vets realise how important they are in legislation.
You've got a lot more power than people think, . And to be honest with people saying, you can come to us for help, but we, the Scottish SBC and RSPC need vets in every instance where unnecessary suffering is being, talked about. So just follow the code, don't make assumptions and act on your best advice and your best judgement at the time.
Thanks, Mike. I have noticed from from the chat a number of people are asking questions from different countries, which is really interesting. Obviously, everything we're talking about today is to do with UK legislation, although the principles of the link and everything we're discussing absolutely would be globally applicable, and we would, we have worked with an Number of organisations across the world in different countries to help them set up their own linked groups in, in, in their country.
So if that was something you're interested in doing, in your own country, then please do get in touch with us through the website, and we would be able to to give you a few pointers on, on doing that and support you in that way, because obviously, every country has their own animal welfare legislation, and, and their own roles that they can play, but the principles, as I say, remain unchanged. The third scenario, and this is going to be answered by, by Paula, I admitted a dog with severe skin lesions that my colleague thinks might be burns. The owner was difficult and the team don't want me to give the dog back, but I'm really worried that I will get in trouble if we keep the dog.
What should I do? Lovely, well thanks thanks Vicky. What I'm going to do is perhaps just expand this a little bit to cover, another common question that that we often receive about sort of both confiscation as well as as handing back, and then after the second question I'm gonna pass over to Mike for some comments from an an SPCA perspective.
I, I think if we just take that, that scenario to the, the, the sort of the, the first point of contact, it could be that perhaps in the consulting room you have suspicions or concerns about a particular patient. And certainly that, I think that there's two things to bear in mind about that. One is that, you know, it's really.
Important that nobody ever puts themselves into a position of, of difficulty, perhaps if particularly if you have a challenging client. But also we don't have the, the, the right to, to, to sort of there and then confiscate an animal.i will cover the legislative side of this in a moment.
What we would always say in that sort of situation is, perhaps this is the time to, to, to impart the sort of the art of veterinary medicine rather than the science. You know, that there's no reason at all why in that situation you shouldn't perhaps admit the patient. That then just buys you time to have a think about it, have a chat to your colleagues.
You know, I'm, I'm really worried about Freddie, I'd like to admit. Him so that we can keep an eye on and have a think about, you know, how we're going to address this case. And that certainly buys you time not only to chat to your, your, your colleagues, but also to chat to the SPCA as well.
And the one thing I really would absolutely advocate is, please, please get to know your local SPCA inspector, and, and, and particularly at times like this, please put aside any. You concerns or, or feelings you have about some of the perhaps the, the contentious issues the SPCAs deal with, for example, badger culling or fox hunting or whatever, but get to know your local SPCA inspector. Apart from the fact they'd be very grateful for a cup of tea, they can be the most amazing advocate for you, in terms of just giving you that guidance, sharing their experience with you.
So that, that buys you time. You you can have a think about it and then decide what you are going to do. Have a chat to your SPCA inspector.
Is it something that you need to take action about now? Do you need to get some more information? Gives you time to, you perhaps have a look back through the clinical records as well.
And then if we go back to the, the, the specific scenario here about handing the, the, the patient back again, we can't do that off our own bat, but this is a point I'm perhaps gonna hand over to Mike, so Mike can cover some of the legislative side of things in, in terms of, the powers we do have and. And perhaps where we need support and, and the other thing just to bear in mind here is obviously Scottish SPCA has jurisdiction in Scotland, the law is different, and then RSPCA covers England and Wales, which again has a different Animal Welfare Act. So, Mike, if, if you could maybe just pick up from here.
Yeah, thank you very much, Paula. As I said, a lot of vets don't understand the powers they've got. It's an offence, both in Scotland and England and Wales for anyone to fail to seek veterinary advice in the first place.
It's also an offence to fail to follow the advice. It's given. So in this instance, particular circumstance, if you've got serious concerns and you're not sure on whether to hand it back, if your veterinary advices it has to be kept in overnight or whatever for observation or for any other reason, somebody refusing to do that, could be technically breaking the law.
So you do have that power there. If you come back to what is section 32 in Scotland, and there'll be an equivalent, section down in England. If a veterinary surgeon, certifies that the animal is suffering or in their opinion is likely to suffer if it goes back, then they can give a certificate to an inspector, in Scotland or a police constable who can then seize that animal.
Now, seizing that animal doesn't mean we have to take it away. Technically, we can seize it and leave it in the vet practise, and anyone that tried to obstruct that could be found guilty of an offence of obstruction. So there is waste there.
One of the problems that you'll find throughout the UK is that in an emergency situation, you've got a 1215 minute, consultation. You're not going to have an SSPCA or an RSPC inspector literally around the corner that can jump to that. So a lot of it is if you can coerce the owner to leave it overnight, that would give plenty of time to speak to your local, RSPCA or SSPCA inspector and decide the best course of action.
The one thing I would caution about, and I've seen it so many times, is when people do, if, if they've done something wrong and they actually present themselves at a vet surgery, they've got their story down to a tee, what you will not always be getting is the truth. So you've, you've got to earn on the side of caution. One thing that people worry about is getting it wrong.
If you act with the correct intention in the eyes of the law, you're basically immune from any action, as long as you act on the best intention. Thank you, Vicky. Thanks, Mike.
And Caroline, do you have a point? Yeah, it was just say that, you know, it's very similar in England and Wales. It's Section 18 of the Animal Welfare Act that .
Allows a vet to certify to see or take into possession an animal. We don't have the same powers in England and Wales as the SSPCA has in Scotland. So we would need, we need the police to be alongside us, or actually, you know, obviously, the police can do this themselves, but they would tend to do that with the support of the RSPCA.
You know, some, there is variation in the police. I mean, some, you know, are, are really excellent on this, but obviously, they're incredibly stretched, so it does tend to be that that would be done. RSPCA and then getting the police involved as well.
Anything further, Paula? No, I, I, I think that's, that's covered most of it. Thank you.
Oh, Mike. Yeah, just in the occasion in this instance, if you are for whatever reason have to give the animal back, there's nothing to stop you then reporting it to the RS or the SSBC and we can follow up at a later date, and go back and check, and see if there's any further information that we can obtain. Thanks take care.
Fantastic. And thank you for all the questions that are coming in. As I say, we will try and get to those if they're not answered in the course of doing these scenarios.
So please do keep them coming, in the Q&A box if possible, rather than the chat. That's brilliant. Thank you.
So scenario 4. I want to report a client to the SSPCA as I've concerned that a number of their rabbits have come in either dead with possible trauma signs or in very bad condition. My boss says I shouldn't do this as it's bad for business and I will be breaching GDPR.
What should I do? And Mike's going to lead on this answer. Yeah, I mean, I first got involved in what we call first strike in Scotland in 1999, and this is a very simple topic that's been going back to that date.
Ever since the introduction of the original Data Protection Act, there has always been a clear exemption for the detection or prevention of crime. It is a clear crime throughout the UK to commit cruelty or to allow it to happen. So GDPR in that sense doesn't really come into it as long as you are acting on the facts as you know them at the time.
So that's not really an issue to be overconcerned about. I know, veterinary surgeons have got their own, codes of practise through the Royal College. So if you follow that, it will not impinge on the GDPR that's going about.
The one thing that we have seen, sadly over the years is, and I'm not criticising older vets, but a lot of older vets just don't understand that there is any kind of link. Veterinary profession is a very caring profession, and a lot of people just can't get their heads around the fact that some people may intentionally harm an animal, whether it's the damaged animal or damage, the relationship with the partner or some kind of coercive behaviour. But sadly, it does happen.
They invented the profession back in 1999 when Helen Monroe did all her work. All they were trying to do then was catch up with what paediatricians were doing 30 years before. And it's always things to look at.
A client who just happens to be on holiday and appears with a horrendous accident, always try and find out who their vet was and discuss it with them. We had a very interesting case a couple of years back, several years back that only came to light because a veterinary nurse had moved between practises. And a kitten with severe injuries was presented at the new practise, and she's recalled that two kittens previously at a previous practise had been, admitted in the same way.
So it's, it's about joining. It's not just the veterinary surgeon that can be important in this, it can be the veterinary nurse, it can be the receptionist, because we have had occasions in the past where. The vet receptionist is speaking to the vet, and they've had a totally different story and the reception which was given to the vet.
And as I say, some of the people that deliberately harm animals and present themselves there, their stories are so well rehearsed and they can be so plausible. So there is nothing to worry about with GDPR. If you get to the stage where it is a senior partner or the owner of the practise.
That is putting a blocker on it because they don't want to damage your business, you can turn that around and say, well, do you want to damage your business by seeing that you're going to have all these cruel clients coming. And I can only really speak for Scotland, but I'm pretty sure the RSPCA and the links group officers, if there was, that was brought to your attention, any of us would happily speak to that practise owner or senior member to try and explain why, you should be reporting this kind of thing. .
So that I think that's that covered Vicky. OK, if we go to Paula and then Caroline. Thanks.
Thanks, Vicky. Yes, just in terms of the code of professional conduct, it is very, very clear, and there is, there are always understandable concerns about breaching client confidentiality. We will put some slides up at the end just to to show you the relevant sections in the supporting guidance, but the the wording is basically if animal welfare or the public interest.
Compromise, then you can breach client confidentiality. And that particular section of the supporting guidance was further enhanced just last year to actually give some scenarios, one of which is where an animal has been abused, another is where child abuse has been suspected. So it, it is very, very clear in the code that we, we can bridge confidentiality in those circumstances.
Thank you. Caroline. Yeah, not too much more to add.
I mean, I think this is quite scary for vets. I think we, we do get that. You know, it's outside of the normal day to day comfort zone, very busy, and I think that it can maybe be a little bit easy to, you know, hide behind GDPR RCVS, you know, I don't want to get in trouble, and I think that's understandable, but as professionals, it's important that we understand, you know, and we've read the, the rules that apply to us.
And I know there's a lot of concern about, you know, social media that, you know, if you do something that upsets people, it's gonna end up in social media. And, and, you know, I've come across that, and I think, I can't say that it won't happen, but obviously, people don't really want to go out there and publicise the fact that, you know, they're in trouble over something that they do for their pet. And so, I think that if they do complain, I think it, it doesn't tend to get very far, and I know it can be really distressing to be on the end of some of this social media, but.
You know, it does tend to die down very quickly. I think often I find that people will actually jump into your defence as well. And, you know, really, it's that professional role that we've got, and, you know, the importance of acting as the advocate for the animal, that I think within the, you know, the very clear rules that are out there, hopefully, people will feel empowered to do that.
Vicky, just to jump in on that 11 thing to give some people a sense of comfort, and I know this is the case in Scotland, and it will be the same with RSPCA prosecutions department down south. We don't just get the facts and then it goes to court. In Scotland, everything goes to the Procurator Fiscal Service, who are responsible for the actual prosecution of all crime in Scotland.
They sense check and proofread and do everything to make sure that all the evidence that was gained is lawfully gained. So if there was any question that it may have been, obtained unlawfully, that would have been be addressed by the fiscal. Before it ever reached court.
So that is a kind of sense check that can happen, and I'm pretty sure the RSPCA prosecution's department work along the same lines, because everything that's presented to the fiscal in Scotland must be made available to the defence under the rules of disclosure. So it's not as if we can hide anything. If it is totally not anonymous, if it's totally anonymous, then we're upfront that the information came from an unknown source, and that'll be the case.
But if we know that, Paula was the originator of this, we have to disclose that to, the procurator fiscal, or it can cause a case to fall. So if there's been any discrepancy in the actual gaining of the evidence, that will be picked, should be picked up well before it gets to court. Thank you.
We've had a number of people in the chat just saying. That we we've got a number of veterinary nurses with this saying, I'm, I'm a veterinary nurse. The final opinion does sit with the vet.
How does this, you know, what should I do as a veterinary nurse? What can I do? And I know we've got a number of things that vet nurses can do.
So does someone wants to just give a bit of advice to the vet nurses who might be a bit perhaps frustrated with things that they've seen and haven't been able to report themselves. From a reporting, aspect, if ideally the, the vet nurse should speak to the attending veterinary surgeon or the senior partner and go through that route, but if they're so disillusioned that the vet has totally ignored that advice. In Scotland, they can report it to us totally anonymously.
You've got to remember, if somebody's actually attended a veterinary surgery, they've been out in public, somebody else could have seen them. There's no, no way if it comes to us as genuinely anonymous, and we don't know who it is, there's no way they'd be able to prove where the original information came from. And if we turn up and find the truth of the matter that the animal is injured or whatever, 9 times out of 10, that person will give us the permission to speak to the.
Because they think they're in the clear. So there are ways around that. If you don't want to phone the RSPC or the SSPCA, Crime Stoppers is another option.
And the beauty of Crime Stoppers, even if they were phoning from the vet surgery, Crime Stoppers number never appears on any bill. So nobody would ever be able to tell that the person, whether it's, somebody that's been abused or a vet nurse, that it was actually them that phoned Crime Stoppers because all they're after is information. Paula, thanks Vicky, just to add as well, you know, from a, from a veterinary nurse perspective, again, the, the, the Royal College guidance for veterinary nurses, the supporting guidance is the same in terms of your VNs can breach client confidentiality, under the circumstances that we've mentioned previously, so again, there's no concerns from from that perspective.
I sure I'd just like to add, with regards to certainly the cases that I get involved with, which are tens and hundreds of cases, certainly a year, that, veterinary nurses and veterinary receptionists play a huge role, in these types of cases. And quite often, there are witness statements that are produced by, these, employees of veterinary practises that add to, to the, the evidence that will be presented in court, and, and that can be essential, that can, really assist, the, the prosecution of perpetrators, and, and it's more about, recording their observations with regards to what occurs in practise. Certainly veterinary receptionists are, in my experience, they are one of the first members of the practise to make contact with, a potential, owner or perpetrator of abuse, and, and, and, and quite often their gut feeling, and what they can see with regards to, the, the person's attitude towards their pet can be essential in a case.
Similarly with veterinary nurses as well, it's not just about what the veterinary, surgeon finds during their examination. But it, it's quite often about discussions that a veterinary nurse might have on the telephone, or they might have, as a client presents an animal, to the practise prior to the vet seeing them. So, as far as veterinary receptionists and nurses go, they can also be essential, with regards to information required.
And Caroline, you had your hand up. Yeah, I was just gonna come back on a point that Michael made earlier about the sort of process moving forward to court. It is a little bit different in England and Wales.
We have our own prosecutions department, but obviously there is still that incredible sort of thorough checking. We do not want to take cases forward, you know, which are not sort of really strong and watertight and in fact, our sort of success rate for prosecutions we take forward, I think is around 93.7%.
It's something that CPS would probably be quite jealous of. And also, I think, really, to make the point that it is fine to change your mind. You know, you might think X at the beginning of a process, and then get the RSPCA involved, you know, we do some further tests, and it, and it turns out to be different.
Well, that's fine. You know, you were right to flag the concern, it has been investigated. That's no problem.
And I think vets sometimes worry that they need to be sure when you haven't got all the evidence in front of you. And obviously that isn't gonna happen. So it's fine to change your mind.
I think that mention of evidence segues quite nicely into our next scenario. So this one is around going to court. The scenarios, I reported the case to the RSPCA.
They now want me to be an expert witness. I'm not a specialist and I'm worried I will have to go to court, and they will get into trouble with the college if I mess it up. Help.
And now Sean's going to lead on answer for that one. Yeah, I think, certainly, to begin with, it's, it's worthwhile just, taking a step outside the box here and having a look at, at what that actually means. I think it's certainly to define, what an expert witness is, first of all, and, in order to do that, we can.
We'll look at what all, all types of witnesses are that go to court. So we've got, we've got eyewitnesses that would be someone that turns up, to, to basically describe to the court what they have seen, and, and, and how that can assist the court in making any determination. We've then got a professional witness who is essentially an eyewitness that's working in a professional capacity.
So, in these sorts of circumstances, we're looking at a, a veterinary surgeon who has examined an animal and, is basically describing what they have done and how they have treated the animal. And then the third type of witness is the expert witness, and, and the difference or the, the essentials of an expert witness is that that is a person who by nature of their qualifications and experience can give an opinion. So they're there to assist the court.
They're not there to assist the prosecution. They're not there to assist the defence. They're there to assist the court to understand the veterinary science behind the particular case.
And, and in most instances, vets are asked to go to court to simply give their opinion as to whether an animal that they, they were asked to treat was suffering or whether and or whether its needs were met. The determination of non-acciental injury. As a case is a very, very difficult process, and, and not many veterinary surgeons certainly in, in the UK, first line vets would necessarily be asked to pass opinion in terms of did this animal suffer as a consequence of non-acidental injury.
The, the, the process often entails did the animal suffer? And, the evidence that then surrounds that particular case, adds to the, determination as to whether it was non accidental injury in nature or not. So the first thing to do in terms of, if you're asked to be an expert witness is first and foremost, don't panic.
You're not the first veterinary surgeon to have been asked to go to court to give evidence on an expert level. And, it is a lot easier than you would first find because the questions that you're, you're asked in that respect is what you've been trained to do, and it's nothing more than that, which is essentially did the animal suffer? And if it did suffer by what mechanism did it suffer?
And by that I mean, for example, we've heard of a, a, a dog that's fallen off the sulphur and fractured its leg. The mechanism of suffering in that respect is that the animal would have suffered pain. And, and quite often there's nothing more required from the veterinary surgeon than that.
So there are a variety of different determinations to be made by the court, but those determinations don't have to be made by the veterinary surgeon themselves in their entirety. And that's the important thing with regards to going to court, it's having an understanding of what you are there for, and you're not there to assist the prosecution, to prosecute this particular person that's caused this animal to suffer. You're there to assist the court's understanding of the, of the case, but in particular, with regards to how that animal suffered, if it did suffer, and, the associated treatments and so on that were required in that respect.
Yes, Caroline. So, yeah, I just really wanted to add, because I know that the whole concept of perhaps going to court can be, you know, again, quite scary for vets. You know, I think it's really important that that consideration wouldn't put people off of reporting, you know, there are the, I'd say the vast majority of cases, you know, don't go to court for, for all sorts of different reasons.
And if the case is, is a very difficult one, then I think, as Sean has alluded to, then there will be, you know, other experts sort of assisting and overseeing that. But you know, in a lot of, a lot of cases, if it doesn't go to court or the vet doesn't get called to go to court, and I think that if there's a really sort of thorough report, then that can often really help and help avoid that scenario. And so, you know.
If you are involved in, in a situation that you think might need reporting, I think it's important for that sort of thoroughness to be there right from the beginning. It's just about being a good thorough vet. There's, there's nothing more in my mind to it than that really, .
Good history, good notes, you know, just really good notes, really thorough clinical examination. Again, documented very carefully, and we have forms that can assist with that. But, you know, not just any NAD, but, you know, actually showing that you have looked at different things, that you are recording actual temperatures.
Actual weights and body condition scores, actual heart rates, just about being, being really thorough, so that when you do come to write your report, you know, you, you've got that sort of contemporaneous notes there to go from, and you're gonna have a really thorough report, that really is not gonna, not gonna raise lots of questions. Thank you. OK, so on to our final scenario, our 6th scenario, and this does bring in more of the the link that a number of you were talking about in the chat and in the Q&As.
So I just had a really uncomfortable consultation with a couple and their pet. I felt a female owner wanted to tell me something, but it felt like she wasn't really allowed to speak and the atmosphere was really frosty. The male owner said he'd found the kitten like this.
It's really weak with the scleral haemorrhage. Thanks Vicky, I'll, I'll call start that one. I think this is probably summed up in a, a, a quote from the American Humane Association, when animals are abused, people are at risk, and when people are abused animals are at risk.
So whilst we cannot assume that the person that beats their partner is going to beat the family pet or vice versa, if we have one, it should be giving us a strong index of suspicion there may be other abuse happening in that situation. The reason that they are closely linked is it's, it's all about that common denominator of the human perpetrator. Their desire is to have power and control over their victim.
So why do they take the pets to the vets? Well, it, it's very much of, if you don't do as I say, I will hurt the family pet, or I've, I've, you know, I've hurt the pets, I've taken them to the vet. The vet didn't suspect anything, therefore, there's no point in you telling anybody because nobody's going to believe you.
To point out, it is a gendered crime, over 80% of victims are female, but that doesn't mean to say that, that, that men cannot be victims of domestic abuse and domestic abuse will happen in in same-sex relationships as well. But if we just look at some of the statistics, 1 in 3 women is going to experience domestic abuse at some point in their life. In England and Wales, 2 women a week are killed as a result of domestic abuse.
During COVID, during the, the lockdown, that, that statistic actually tripled in the first three weeks of the lockdown, because clearly people were confined in their homes. In terms of, again, further stats, on average, a victim of domestic abuse is going to experience, in excess of 30 violent episodes before they pick the phone up for the first time. We also know they're going to delay fleeing that violent situation because they do not want to leave their pet behind at the hands of their perpetrator.
And this is why things such as, pet fostering services, which a number of organisations, including Dogs Trust Cats Protection provide. So this is providing temporary fostering, for pets belonging to victims of domestic abuse to help them get out of that situation. And I, I'll give you an example of, of our own from just a couple of years ago, we had a a a client who had got out of a violent situation.
The, our, our, our team were due to go back the following day to collect the dog with a police escort, and in that interim period, the perpetrator had taken the dog to the vet, told them it had bitten the child and had the dog put to sleep, and that's purely to exert that power and control over that victim. We know that abusers that you, when you talk about domestic abuse, we, we generally think about physical abuse, but there are other sorts of abuse, so emotional abuse, coercive control, and that has actually been recognised, so the, the Serious Crimes Act was actually changed a few years ago to recognise specifically coercive controls so the impact that one person can have on a. Another without laying a finger on them at all.
And clearly there is financial abuse as well, and, and this is, you pets are actually mentioned in the Domestic Abuse Act that was, updated in Scotland last year. So for example, you know, not allowing the victim to seek veterinary treatment, not allowing the, the, the victim to buy food for their pet, to, to, you know, it's very, very well recognised. So what we've done is certainly as part of the, the links group guidance, is we utilise this, ARDR process in terms of talking to clients, to try and just ascertain what's happening.
So the ask is very much asking open questions. So for example, sometimes when we see injuries like this, they can be the result of a deliberate act. Do you think that may have happened here, so not, not being, you know, accusatory at all, just trying to understand it may encourage, a, a client to, to open up.
Reassure them that it's never OK to hurt a human or an animal. Documenting, we've already spoken about, good clinical notes, and I know that goes right the way through the heart of everything we do, but also just being mindful of, of, of what we're writing. So if, for example, somebody had said, well, you know, my, my partner hit the dog over the head with a.
With a, with a stick, clinically it's perfectly fine to say the dog sustained blunt trauma to the top of its head, but clearly writing verbatim what that, what you've been told, carries so much more weight, should, should it, it be necessary to, to, you know, to take a case forward. And, and referring and what we mean by referring is being able to signpost a potential victims to the support they need. It's really important to emphasise it's not as, as long as well as not being our job to be judge and jury in these cases in terms of our suspicions.
We report our suspicions on to the SPCA. It's not our job to be social workers in these cases either, we, we. We have to work within our area of expertise, but having that ability to refer somebody on to the support services that they can access, you know, that that's what we, you know, we, we hopefully should be aspiring to do, and we have a couple of tools at, at our fingertips as part as as the links group in, in ways of being able to help that and, and we'll put some contact details up, at the end as as well.
The other thing I just wanted to go back to as well, which, Mike had mentioned a little earlier on, is this failure to follow up on veterinary advice, so to all intents and purposes, a client maybe, you seeking veterinary treatment, but for example, you know, an animal that comes in. In with a fracture, has an external fixator put on, and they don't come back to, to actually have that, that addressed at a later date. So, you know, on, on the face of it, they're seeking veterinary advice, but they're not actually following through.
And again, that may be just a means of, of having that power and control over their victim as well. Mike, I didn't know if you wanted to just add a bit more to that. Yeah, I mean, it's something you're talking about extreme cases, with us, and when it comes to failing to follow that advice, a lot of people realise that if they don't go to event, they could be, committing an offence.
But some of the people we've dealt with that are in coercive behaviours the goal, and it's as opposed to external fixators, it's been more medication. And they've gone, they've sought the advice, but then they don't follow the medication through, and we've had vets coming back to us saying this doesn't make sense, this should have had some effect by then. So it's actually failure to follow the vet's advice is, an offence in itself.
And going back over the whole session, when it comes to vets giving evidence, one thing I would advise about is do not treat the courts as vets, keep your statements as. Straightforward as possible, if you just put down every technical term in the veterinary dictionary, you are going to be 3 hours longer in the witness box than you want. One bit that does fall down because there are people who work for both prosecution and defence side.
One thing I always look at is to think if anybody else, any other vet looked at your, notes or records, did you miss anything? Was there a test you could have done that could have shown a different result? And the whole idea is As Sean says, you're not there to get somebody prosecuted or to get them off of something, you're there simply to give the facts to the court.
If you stick to the facts, you'll be fine. Thanks, Mike. Right, if we just briefly to Caroline, and then we'll take some questions from the, from the board.
Just to come back on that point about the sort of external fixator, and that is something that we do get called to, sometimes. And I think, you know, obviously, sometimes there is an element of people just not bothering and, you know, there is that sort of neglect cruelty side, but I think there is another side to it, which is that perhaps sometimes. There hasn't been a great understanding of what the whole procedure is going to entail, and that actually it's very difficult for the owner to, you know, make the multiple journeys.
They didn't realise that it was going to have to be lots of back and forward. They, they may not have transport, they might afford a taxi. They weren't aware there was going to be follow up costs.
So I think it is important for, you know, vets to be thinking before you start, you know, when Oh, we just lost Caroline, you're going silent. What it or we've, we've knocked a little bit off the bill, you know, it, and I think it ties in that, you know, just because you can doesn't mean that we should. You've got to look at that whole picture, because, you know, we're happy to help, but, you know, we're charity, we don't have any statutory funding, and we really want to be focusing on that, that sort of core work for us.
So we're never gonna, we're not into blaming vets or anything like that, but It's just at the at the beginning, making sure that everyone knows what they're getting into. Brilliant, thank you. That's OK, Wendy, we've had some questions coming in that look really useful.
Have you got a few to put to the panel? Yes, one Caroline for you in response to, I think what you've just talked about from Anna Harrison. She's saying, but you are asked for your opinion and the case won't go forward at all if you don't say there was unnecessary suffering or a failure to meet needs.
So, I mean, there are, there are two types of witness. There is a witness of fact, which is where you just literally, you know, give the facts of what you found, and then you get into the expert witness, which is, yes, when you are giving your opinion of, of suffering, duration of suffering, . Whether that suffering was caused by the action of someone who was acting unreasonably, and, and that, that will all be all be set out.
But I think that that is something that, you know, don't overthink it. I think it would be, you know, we, we understand mechanisms of suffering, pain, hunger, you know, wounds. So I think, I think don't, don't overthink it, it isn't a big leap from what we do as, as vets, although obviously it can seem, you know, a bit daunting.
I don't know, Sean, do you want to add anything to that? Yes, I think, what's very important in terms of, Prosecution cases as a whole is The veterinary surgeon's got to be comfortable with regards to their area of expertise, and, and I think that's essential because, if you start working outside your particular area of expertise or your particular comfort zone, if you do have to go to court, then, that will certainly, be identified and, and it wouldn't necessarily jeopardise the case, but it certainly puts you in a position that you perhaps wouldn't rather be. In terms of, of, of how veterinary surgeons address these cases, it is very much a case of saying, well, we examine the animal, we record the findings, and that's a factual basis.
But then once you analyse all that, you then would pass an opinion in terms of did the animal suffer, did it not suffer? Where it where it needs being met, if they weren't in what respects? And, it's essentially been very, honest and more consistent, not necessarily having to sit there and say, is this an offence?
And that's the, the, the very important thing with regards to, the remit of a veterinary surgeon in any case, is you're not trying to determine whether an offence is being committed, but you're actually determining as a veterinary surgeon. Did the animal suffer and or were its needs not met? And it's, it can be literally as simple as that.
OK, just, just to, back up what Sean's saying there, lots of animals suffer, it becomes an offence when that could have been avoided. The the easiest one to explain is a dog slips its lead, gets hit by a bus and shatters its back end. The owner takes it immediately to a vet.
They've done everything they could possibly do. An animal that's got a compound fracture that's been left for a week and testing by the time it comes here, that could have been avoided. That suffering is unnecessary.
OK. Camela Reiterate the point. I know this has been made, but I think it's so important that expertise is, is not specialist because I think you hear this a lot.
But, you know, actually be proud of yourself as a GP vet. You know, we need GP vets who see GP vet things, understand what normal people bringing their pets to to GP vets do. And act and you know, a specialist is, is not, you know, a university specialist who is seeing a very small proportion of cases is not gonna be in many of these cases the the best person to comment.
So I think it's just having that confidence in yourself. Cool. I've got two questions now that are slightly similar.
So we've got Penny Morgan is saying, what can we do if we only have mild concerns, as stated often presented with a consistent and valid story, but case then fails to attend. So how much time should we spend following up mild concerns? Examples would be puppy kitten injuries presented out of hours and then lost to the follow up.
And then similarly, we've got, Emmagu asking clarification on, on what Mike talked about earlier. It's an offence to fail to seek and follow veterinary advice. I see many patients being discharged against veterinary advice.
In these cases, my understanding is that the owner is failing to follow veterinary advice. As a veterinary nurse, what are my options, especially if the veterinary surgeon may not agree with my views. So, so what do they do when a client isn't bringing the pet back?
Is that classed then as Or how, how should they deal with that? Who would like to take that? Yeah, I can take that.
I mean, if, if the advice that's been clearly given by the vent surgeon is this must come back within 48 hours or a week or whatever and it doesn't do that, then phone the Scottish SBC in Scotland and we'll go round. But not, not because it's needing groomed or something, but if the vet says, unless this fixator's taken off or unless this medication's checked, the animal can or may suffer, then we will check it out. It's not an issue.
Hey, Caroline, did you want to add to that? Yeah, I think it really goes along with that sort of idea of, of the gut feeling and, you know, we would ask vets to, you know, obviously, to do some exploration themselves, you know, really sort of try and chase up and, and see, you know, have they gone somewhere else. You know, we, we obviously want to respond to all the calls that we possibly can, but at the same time, you know, we have sort of 300 officers over, over the whole country.
So. You know, it's just about that, that balance, I think that gut feeling, and I think that if you have got real sort of welfare concerns that an animal, you know, will be suffering, if someone hasn't come back and they should have, then yeah, then give us a call. Paula.
Yeah, thank, thanks Wendy, just to go back to the, the, the first question about mild concerns, I, I think it is important that you, you, there is some effort to be made. So if you have got, for example, a, a, a kitten with an injury that that fails to, to come back, at least a, a follow-up telephone call, and again it's back to recording that, it may not be sufficient to, you take your suspicions to a level where you feel you need to report at that point. But clearly if that happens again, then you, you're already starting to build up a, a, a bank of evidence that that is, is going to lead you down a route of, of perhaps reporting, you know, to, to an inspector as such.
So I, I think it is important that, that we look at that. The other thing just to bear in mind as well is that, and one of the things that, that came out of Helen Munroe's work is that, educated people are. Much more plausible.
You know, how could you possibly think I would do something like that? You know, the, the, the general feeling from, from Helen's research is that, that, you know, abuse happens more in areas of poverty and social deprivation, but that's not necessarily the case. So do just bear that in mind and, and, you know, as, as, you know, a number of us have said now, if you have a gut feeling, there's probably a good reason why you have a gut feeling, because something probably isn't right.
Just, just a little point, just in case anybody's a bit worried about confidentiality and things, if we just kind of mention maybe a first name so that people feel that they can ask, you know, those questions. I don't think it's it's massive, but it's just something that I tend to, to do just to increase the er conversations and things. OK, cool.
. So the next question is, it may be that the vet or vet team might be concerned about their own safety if a statement of suffering is required and the accused is hostile. Do we have any comments on that? In 34 years with a job I've never known a vet to be targeted.
They they tend to target the RSPCA inspector or the Scottish SPCA inspector because it's them that's actually reported the incident. Even dogfighters have accepted, well, that vet is just doing their job, that's their profession, whereas it's the SSPCA with a campaign or something, but immediately if you're under threat for anything, it's instantly reportable to the police. And a, a lot of things that Paula said and Caroline have said about gut feeling, that's where a lot of this comes from, and it's the whole idea is to increase cross reporting.
Across the board and don't, as policies on the back of Helen's research, just don't go poor area, that'll be a problem, rich area, that'll be it. This covers the whole of society. We've prosecuted ministers who have been beating up their wife and nearly killing their dog, all that kind of stuff.
There is no real barriers to this, and we've in Scotland, we're taking a bit further with a programme on animal guardians, which is where. Headteachers, foster parents, social workers are identifying children to us at a young age who have done non-acidental injury to animals and to try and break that cycle. And it, back to Caroline's point, it's not just about prosecuting people.
It's trying to change behaviours and making people aware because if an animal's at risk, I genuinely believe anybody in that family could be at risk, and it's just to try and break that cycle. Caroline. Yeah, just to really reinforce that and so and so again, I understand this can be scary, you know, I don't want to downplay that, but the law is there to protect us as vets, as well as the sort of wider population, you know, that the police are there, and I think we do have to try and have a bit of trust in that law, and that if we're doing the right thing within the law, then that support us, because I think that if, if we ignore things and, you know, we allow these things to continue then.
You know, it's only going to get worse, you know, and, and we wouldn't want to think that because we'd ignored something or, or been scared that actually, you know, there were, there were people at at home, other animals and obviously children, other members of the family in real risk. Cool, thank you. We've not, we've got a question now about, what happens if you think it might be the child in the household that's harming the pets.
Often kids accompanying parents into the appointment, and it, and you might pick up on that relationship issue between the child and the pets. Mike, that might be a question for you to answer that you've got a great programme going. Yeah, again, in, in Scotland, we've got that animal guardians programme going, which is a 1 to 1.
And nobody ever knows it's SSPCA. It's a 1 to 1 with the child and everything's reported back to the, the child caseworker and the social worker, it's all hand in hand with the social worker. So if you've got a client and you suspect it's a child that's doing that, and sometimes people will find it harder to report their child's doing that because then they're they're worried that social Work I'll get involved and all that kind of stuff.
But it really can work. And it is just getting that into the cycle. And you could encourage, if it does happen in Scotland, you could tell the parent, you could contact SSBC about this, and I'm sure RSPC will have something along the same lines.
And it's again, breaking that cycle, but you can't deal with it in isolation and I mentioned it earlier on. We're not experts in child psychology and all that kind of stuff, but we work with the professionals that are, and all we ask in return is if a social worker or whatever's in a house and sees an animal suffering, they report that to us because we will report if somebody's potentially suffering or there's a crime, we will report it to the relevant agency. OK, cool.
Oh, Caroline. So I was just gonna say, obviously. You know, it is appropriate to report, you know, we are not experts on, on, on children's behaviour, but, you know, why is that happening?
And, you know, obviously, we have a very sort of multi-agency approach, pulling in the relevant people, you know, safe, safeguarding and, and social services and, you know, whoever is, is needed. So it's, it's not the vet's job to try and sort out that situation or get to the bottom of that situation. It's the vet's jobs to go, or, you know, This isn't right, and then to, you know, pass it over according to the rules that allow them to do that.
Paula Thanks Wendy, just, yeah, just to add on to that as well, you know, absolutely endorse Caroline's comments. It's not our job to, to, to, you know, deal with that situation, it's not our area of expertise, but also in terms of just breaking that cycle, we know that children that grow up in abusive households are more likely to be abusive themselves. So if it means that there is a possibility of some sort of early intervention, then, you know, I, I, I do feel that we ought to be, be sort of grasping that with both hands or at least, you know, facilitating that.
Vicky, just my last point on that, and I call it the bystander effect. A lot of people will think somebody else will report it because the auntie or the, the teacher will have seen it. There's been some tragic cases in Scotland where children have fallen through the loop, and nobody's ever reported it on the assumption that somebody else will have said something, something else will have said something.
So if a vet does say something, it doesn't mean it will be acted on. It gives the relevant authority, the information that might just add to the intelligence for them to do something. Absolutely.
I probably got time for one more, very briefly. OK, so we, we've got a question on, research. Has there been any demographic studies on the UK and other EU countries on this issue?
And are there any differences between rural and urban areas? Now I know we've just had some research done recently, I'm not sure that's been published yet, . I'll, Wendy, no, we, we don't have any, any direct demographic information, the work that Helen Monroe did, Joe Williams and the team at Edinburgh University have just repeated that work, in terms of surveying vets in, in their experience of, of.
No accidental injury, identifying it, reporting it and the such like. That survey closed a few months ago, but the, the data's still being analysed at the moment, but there is, sadly a dearth of, of information that, that's, you know, required in this area, so we, we don't have any specific demographics. Brilliant.
Thank you. Right, so what we'll do is we'll, collate up all those questions and, and put them on social media on our, on our website anonymously and answer those and provide the information we can. We've got stuff about farm animals, stuff about dogfighting, stuff about learned behaviours and abuse stuff for volunteers.
So an awful lot of stuff. We do have training days and, and, obviously when we're out of this rather unique period of COVID, that we hope to, to get back to kindly supported by BSAVA and others, that we would hope to, be able to, come back to. So these are full days.
Obviously, the, the situations here are so, complex and our experts have only really been able to dip their toe into some of these issues, but we would explore those in much greater detail and, and really hope to act out some of these scenarios with you and, and get you really discussing these, these issues in much more detail. So please do follow us on social media and, and keep an eye on our website and we'll do our best to get, get some more training developed for you in due course. Vicky, if I've, I've just started sharing my screen, so apologies for just, just really wanted to flag this, so, so this is the the actual wording from the supporting guidance in the, the code of professional conduct.
So you can see there if animal welfare or the public interest are compromised client confidential confidentiality may be breached, it's exactly the same in the the supporting guidance for vetting. Nurses, and then, as I mentioned last year, it was enhanced, so you can see an animal showing signs of abuse, child or domestic abuse is suspected. So again, it really does emphasise how, you know, that, that we can breach confidentiality.
And then, I just wanted to highlight this, this aspect as well, that non-acidental injury is specifically highlighted. So if you have got an injury that you cannot. Contribute to the history, then you should include NAI in your differential diagnosis.
And just I'm gonna pop this last slide up, just, there's just some contact numbers here, the, the link at the top, you would be delighted if, if any of you would, you know, like to join the links group. That page is a sort of a hidden page, but it gives all of this information here, cos I appreciate there's a lot just to, to jot down in a, in a minute or so. The other thing I just wanted to mention, I did, I did spot as, one of the, the, the comments that came up that we've got, Randall Lockwood on the call.
Randall is one of the pioneers of, of, raising awareness of this in, in the United States, and he and another colleague, Phil Arkau, are very involved. In the the National Link Coalition, which their website is National Link Coalition.org.
They produce a monthly, newsletter that has lots of information, they have great bibliography there there as well. So if you are interested in perhaps getting, you know, regular updates on what's happening worldwide, then, then please do have a look at that as well. Fabulous.
Thanks, Paula. Well, I'll just, I'll thank everybody then. And thanks so much for joining us.
Please do have a look at the links if you want to take a screenshot or a photograph of all those links, obviously a lot of information there. There's been some really great bits shared in the chat. So thank you so much for everyone who shared information that's really appreciated and we'll have a look at some of those links, and do, do get in touch if there's anything more we can support you with.
So thank you so much.
