Hello, everyone. It's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinar vet welcoming you to another episode of vet Chat, the number one veterinary podcast. And I'm super pleased.
I'm privileged to have Doctor Dave Nicol on the line with me. It's not often that I can say that I look more sartorially elegant than Dave because he's always well kitted out. Those of you who are listening will have no idea what I'm talking about.
Those on the on the podcast will see that he's casually dressed in a t-shirt jumper sort of ensemble, but just still looks Devilishly handsome and amazing, so as you always do, Dave, great to have you on the podcast. I know how busy you are. So thanks so much for spending some time, for us to have a chat together.
Massive pleasure, Anthony. Thank you very much for having me. I know it would be hard to believe that there will be people on the podcast who maybe don't know you.
I mean, accolades are plenty VMX speaker of the Year. I think this year you've been speaker of the year previously at VMX, which is a massive achievement given the number of speakers that they have there. And, you know, I remember us sort of going back to about 2009.
2010. You were doing blogs. I was doing, online pharmacy.
I was had a nice website for my veterinary practise, starting to think about Webinars. Actually, that was 2010. But in some ways, we've had a similar sort of path in that that interest in technology.
But obviously not everybody knows that journey. So perhaps if you start by telling us a little bit about your journey, you know, as a vet and now as a as a leader in in sort of veterinary practise management and and leadership training. Yeah, and I do You know what?
I'll probably start that by telling you about my earliest memory of you. I think, actually, cos I'm I'm pretty sure I was. I'd come back from Australia where I just recently begun living, and I had a consulting client very helpfully in the United Kingdom, and I came back and was doing a bit of work for them, and I said, Look, you should come up to It was I think it was a VP MA conference.
It was still that back then and she said, OK, we'll come up and we'll go do that And so so the three of us went up there and I wanted to sort of introduce her and get her really head into management and leadership a bit more. And I just I remember standing around at the bar area after one of the talks, and I wasn't speaking like I was. I was nobody like I wasn't on any bill or in anybody's radar as a speaker.
And I was sort of sitting there looking around, going Oh, it'd be great to do some speaking. And then I saw this giant of a man with like, snow white hair just carving through the crowds, schmoozing and working the room and handing out leaflets. And I think I've still got the leaflet, actually, and and it was a leaflet for one of your webinars, and you just started Webinar.
But it was right at the sort of inception of it, and then and then and then, you know, you got like, six or 9000 people on a webinar for one, and everyone's like holy crap like those things are kicking off. It's such a you know. So you're right.
The inception of that, which was, which was super fun. But so that's kind of like a fun memory. which I always think of when I think of you and just that sort of hustle and the entrepreneurship and the, you know, the ability to get things up and running.
And it was a really, you know, I think it was an interesting time because digital media had just really gotten going, you know? And I've had a big interest in, you know, I've been writing blogs since 2001 when I maybe even 2000. When we, you know, the practise I joined in southeast London, the owner there, Graham Peck was very into digital media, and we actually started a little company Ridiculous company doing usability testing for vet practise websites when nobody even had a website, you know, And but we started writing email newsletters and blogs, and we use this thing to really build build part vets in southeast London, a really good standing in the local community.
And and then social media kind of came along and and And then I sort of wrote, wrote a book on social media for vets and for practise owners called You know, the Yellow Pages are dead. Which was a bit controversial at the time. And I remember that.
Yeah, right. And I was writing a blog as well because I was, you know, moving to Australia, to to work there for a year. I I'd been a leader in a practise in southeast London.
I I'd worked as a business coach for with Brandon Robinson at Village Vets, just going around and and helping him, you know, work on his practises. And I just didn't want to lose connection with the UK market. And I thought, Well, let's just write and just publish and write and write and write to stay connected.
So when I come back a year later, there's still people haven't forgotten. I'm not falling off the face of the earth, and one year turned into seven years, and you know, as life does, you go in a slightly different direction to what you intended, and it's a longer it's a longer pathway to get there. But so many fun things along the way.
To to talk about and you did some fantastic stuff in Australia, cos I think we stayed in quite close contact. Did you set up a practise, or did you end up working in a practise? All all of the above.
So I worked in a practise for about 18 months when I went there, and and once it became clear, you know, my then wife got a very senior job for Microsoft, and it was a sort of job. You just don't turn down. So that one year was, you know, I was going to come back and that one year became seven years, and when we were going to stay, I decided a long time ago I was going to, you know, I wanted to own my own practise and do things a bit differently.
So I I found a real beat or practise in which, you know, the most important aspect of it was it was affordable. I didn't have a lot of money. And not being from Australia, you know, nobody's going to loan you a tonne of money if you're, you know, if you're not from an area.
So I scraped together a little bit of money. And there was this practise on the market called North Right Vet Hospital and the I got in touch with the owner and I was looking at it and I spoke to a few of my friends and colleagues around Sydney and I just didn't They were all like, No, I don't do it because it's going to be demolished and it's on the edge of an industrial estate And it's the last few cottages of housing on the edge of this industrial estate. It's not going to be there in a year.
And I just thought, You know what? The price is Everything here, if it's not going to be there in a year, I need to be able to purchase it, run it, operate it, learn what I need to learn to be a better consultant. That's why I wanted to own it.
I didn't want to advise people things and not done myself, and, and and build it up and an actual fact. Then I'd gotten my first speaking gig across in the United States alongside doing that, and I was really stressed out by doing that. Six hours of content in front of a you know, US audience.
And I just thought, Who the hell am I to be doing that? You know, massive imposter imposter syndrome, kicking off there, And it was just a bit overwhelming. And I was like, I think I'm I don't think I'm going to buy this.
And then I met so many cool people there, and they're all, like, just buy it. And I and I sat down there and, you know, I'd had a few drinks at the bar, and I thought, You know what? I should just do this.
And I messaged the guy that was selling it. George Kaplan talked to George Kaplan. Wonderful guy.
And I just say, Look, if you're still selling it, you know, the deadline for the purchase had passed and he said, Yep, I am. And we met, and we made a deal, and and and it went from there, so I own a practise. And then I opened one from scratch as well.
So, so I've Yeah, I've done. I've done it all really in that mad, and that's the amazing thing. And you, obviously what's really powerful is when you talk about something and you actually do it because it's really easy.
Talk is cheap. You know, we could all I could be a consultant on practise management. But, you know, I've run successful.
As you know, I run a practise that did OK, but it wasn't like super, super successful. You've obviously expanded as well. And that's what's really powerful.
And I think that's why you listen to because you walk your talk, don't you? Yeah, and I think that's part. I mean, I think it's the accent as well in America, to be honest, and it's like, I'm not sure anyone understands what I'm saying, but they just think it sounds lovely so they keep showing up.
But no, I mean I do. I care deeply about this profession. I care deeply about the people in it.
I care, you know especially deeply about the people, are privileged to work with on my teams, and and and I see the pain that's in veterinary medicine, you know, and and it's not fun to look at, you know, it's been a I don't know your experience, like I get the sense you've had a great experience in medicine as well. And it's not all roses. There are hard things to deal with and do.
But it was a wonderful 17 years in practise, and I look back so fondly and I miss it. I I'm doing this because I wanted to do this even more than than have to stop doing that. And I just wish more people could experience that version of veterinary medicine.
And, you know, I think there's a few reasons why they're not. And some of those are in our control. And some of those are not in our control, but to see so many people struggling and grappling with it and not succeeding.
The struggle in the grapple is great, but this this the stopping and the giving up or the burning. I don't think that's OK. And and that's what motivates me now to help people just just for people who are listening, this will be transcribed, and we will translate it so that people in America and elsewhere in the world can understand it.
So if you've stayed this far, you sh and you're watching it as a recording, you should be able to see the translation underneath into English. Bless you. That's very kind of you.
Thank you. Now you speak very clearly. You have a very good voice.
You're an excellent speaker. Obviously, the Americans must understand a bit to make you speaker of the Year. Although it is always good to go to America with a British accent and at least once on your trip here, I love your English accent or your Scottish accent or your British accent.
They are such kind people. The Americans are like II. I adore my trips over there.
America's been, you know, it's funny, you know, it gets a bad rap, and there's certain elements of of American culture or society that are very hard for us to fathom as British people. And and the same is true in reverse. But I have made so like you know, the funny thing is, you go through life and there's circles of friends, and I think this is really important because connection is really important.
And that's maybe what's one of the struggles for veterinary medicine now? And you? You've got your school friends, your university friends.
Your first group of work. Colleagues are a very important part of your peer network. And then as you move into leadership, it becomes a much lonelier journey.
And you have to work harder at that network because it's it's you leading a team and and you're not friends. You can be cordial, but you're going to have to be the one carrying the can. You're paying everybody.
You're the one that's going to make the popular and the unpopular decisions. And that's not that's a much lonelier path to walk than it is in as a as an assistant associate doctor. So I found another group of friends in management here in the UK.
But also, you know, I was taken under the wing by the John Sheridan's ding wills yourself, and then Australia, a group of friends and peers out there. And then I moved back here and because it was quite nomadic, it's almost like I didn't belong anywhere and also belonged everywhere, and it's a sort of slightly odd existence. But my speaking circle of friends and my, you know, community of friends in in America became very important.
And then covid happened, and it was just all cut off. So you know, those two years were just really, really hard. But such dear friends and I adore my trips across there and I've learned so much, and experience so much.
There's been a It's a second home and, you know, it's, the positives far outweigh the negatives for me. I think they are, you know, And we can talk about the challenges of veterinary medicine, you know, in the UK and US and other countries, possibly and, you know, obviously times change. But there is a positive mindset, and I think I worry sometimes that we talk ourselves into a depression and into a This is a really bad job.
Whereas, actually, you know, I wanted to be a vet from when I was eight. I've just come back from our inspection at my school, you know, It was in that school yard where one of the lads stood on a sparrow, killed it, and I thought, Had I been a vet, I could have saved it. So from the age of eight wants to be a vet.
And of course it's challenging. But, you know, it's not easy to do a triathlon, but that doesn't mean that you don't do it. It means that you work hard at it.
You you practise, you get better. You know, you get to the standard you're getting to, which is almost, you know, international level. And and that only happens because you're prepared to practise.
And it was really interesting. I was doing a podcast with two young that now 10 years qualified. And I have a little bit of a theory that if you get over the first five years and you put yourself about and you learn, then it becomes really interesting.
But that first five years can be tough, because, as with any job, new job, it's always stressful. You know, we come out of college and we don't know a huge amount. And we learn then in the job, don't we?
And we make our mistakes in, you know, the first job or two. You find the right practise for yourself, and I think if you can get over that five year hump, then things go a lot better. And this was the You know what?
What? The two young women that I was talking to recently were talking about as well. Yeah, I mean I.
I look back. I was as dumb as a rock. We were We were talking before we started recording, you know, went to vet school, age 17.
Graduated age 22. I barely know what you know. What do you know about life?
Emotional intelligence, Anything at that point in time? Of course. You think you know all which is half the problem.
And and to an extent, you almost need to have a bit of that bluster and bravado to do what we do. You know, The opposite of that is no self esteem and no ego and no ability to not not, You know, you don't you will feel like you don't belong that impostors will eat you alive if you're at the opposite end of the spectrum. But I at the other end is just all hubris and nonsense and rubbish and and bluster and hot air.
And and that's called pretending in another way. And that's, you know, it's another version of impostors. How do you deal with it?
Just shrink away to step up to it. But you're dead, right? Like I remember looking back.
And I do think this is an important thing for any younger fans to do is, you know, you always feel that's the curse of Dunning Kruger or the Dunning Kruger effect is. You don't know where you are on the curve and the longer you stick at something and the more you practise. As long as you're practising the right things and you've got good mentors and support, you will be getting better.
But it's very hard to realise that until you intentionally look back. And I think that's such a valuable skill to be able to look back. And I remember looking back at one year and three years and five years and five years was the point where I thought, actually, I think I'm I think I've got the hang of this by now And I do think that I didn't have any different expectation and I didn't expect to be good in a year.
I didn't expect it to be great. I was still having stress dreams and getting treated for bronchial pneumonia because I was like, you know, my immune system was was run down and I remember several times being on antibiotics because I couldn't shake colds and it was all stress from that first year in practise. But I was supported well, and I was in a quality practise.
I had good mentors and support around me. It was just It is a demanding job. Mentally, physically.
That's what makes it exciting as well, though, isn't it? Because if it was easy, you know, we there are jobs out there that are 9 to 5. You know, you step in at nine, you leave at five.
But for me, being a vet was all about, you know, is vocational. You know, I love people. I loved animals.
I also cared about the planet. I kind of saw that. All of that was kind of connected.
Totally, totally. Yeah. I mean, it's I would love to tell you that I had I mean, it is vocational.
I fell in love with the veterinary medicine. You know, the old cliches of James. Harriet and I did grow up in the countryside and, you know, going around and the large animal vets on summer calls was was terrific.
But what I loved was the interactions with the people, you know, straight, right away. It was it was as a you know, as a 13 year old boy going in and standing on the edge of that vet room, exam room table and looking up as this God ass Pamela Chapman was doing her magic with these endless hordes of crazy people. It seemed, and I just I just remember being fascinated.
This is like a soap opera playing out in front of me. I thought, This is amazing. I'm in.
And, and and and the medicine and the thinking and all the problem solving all of our skills that had to get bolted on. It was just a fascination with people, and the farmers were brilliant and the equine people were a law to themselves, and it was just like, Wow, life's going to be real interesting in this In this job, I don't think, you know, in practise, you ever quite have the same day twice. Do you?
No. And and there's times where I really wished I would have had the same day twice, and there's times I couldn't have. I wish I would never have seen that day again.
But you know, I, I always was grateful for the variety that was coming through the door and and that's a stress as well. Like if it's uncontrolled variety and you don't feel like you can handle it, then that can be overwhelming. But once you build your skills and I do think skill development is the key to having a happy, successful emotionally and financially I mean, career and and the more skill you gain, the more the variety becomes a benefit, not a curse, because you like this is cool, something new that I can still I mean one of the vision.
You know, the webinar that was very much half the world's most competent that, you know, I was a GP did a bit of dermatology, and when we set it up, we said, Look, if you watch a webinar and you learn one thing and you take that into clinical practise, that makes you a better bet before webinars, you know, it would cost me five grand a year to do my training, and I saw 35 hours as a target rather than as a minimum. Now I see people doing, you know, 100 hours on our platform that has to make them a better bet, you know, provide. They're looking at it.
We've got the quizzes, et cetera, and I think if you're more confident, as you say, if you're skilled up now, obviously we don't do the practical skills as much. But it's very much if you walk into that room and you've got an idea fairly on what's wrong with it and how you can solve that. That is actually a really satisfying place to be, isn't it?
And then I do think stress goes down because you feel like you. As you've said, you're in control of your situation. You're not necessarily going to get it right every time.
But you're gonna get it right more times than you get it wrong. Yeah, a absolutely I. I think you said a really important word there as well and stress and stress.
I think you know, there's there's certain things we've painted as the enemy, clients and stress and I don't think either are the enemy. Unhappy clients are certainly not a lot of fun and stress uncontrolled, prolonged stress in which you you you cannot see a way out of is is certainly not fun and not good for you. But But it's, you know, we talk about work, life, balance.
I hate that phrase because it's like putting work against life. And I think it's personal work, personal life, work, life, balance. They're both life, but stress is a necessity of, you know, it's a necessary part of the journey to excellence.
It it's it's so it's load balancing your stress with your ability to recover from that stress. And that means resolving your stress before you load on some more stress, which again is very similar to the athletes journey of OK, I'm going to stress my body not too much, because that gets me fatigued, too fatigued or injured, but not too little or a plateau like we were talking about Park run, you know, and it's there's certain barriers. It's very hard to overcome.
If you're just going out and you run five or 10 kilometres the same pace every single day, your fatigue, because it's boring. But you, your plateau, you mentally fatigue because it's boring and your plateau in your performance versus if you run really slow on your runs and then you go hell for leather, another run and then you do something that's more race based. Three times a week, you'll start smashing your targets and you won't mentally fatigue.
So the analogy into veterinary medicine of how do you control your stress so that it's balanced and so that you've got the opportunity to challenge yourself and push outside of that comfort zone without breaking. That's the challenge I I see as a leader, as a practise owner of creating environments where that challenge can happen, and people can get their down time to to recover and and think about it and reflect. And then the growth can happen.
That's that's what we're not doing on Mass, though, you know? Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know, the point you made there it's It's about chronic stress that gets worse and worse cos you keep on building on it.
Whereas if you've got acute stress, you know, I've just been, doing well being insect of my school. That I'm a governor at has been inspected, and I had to do an interview. Of course, that's a bit stressful, but it's stressful because I care.
I want to do my best there and you know, similarly with with the running and things, for some reason, we vets. We all like to go out for a run, and I used to find it was a way at the end of an evening surgery to kind of unload, you know, I'd go out for a run. Get rid of that sort of, because the the small animal vet job isn't necessarily as physical as, obviously a large animal vet.
So sometimes just getting out running, talking through with yourself some of those clients that maybe were a bit challenging or cases that were a bit challenging it brought it all back into perspective. And then, as you've said, you brought that stress level back to, you know, it's a resting thing. But you know, stress is is important.
It shows we care. It does. I think I would be much more worried if I was no longer stressed, because then you're and that's that's possibly where you end up getting to when you go through a healthy point where you just don't care, you don't feel anything anymore.
That's a really dangerous place to go. I like you said a thing there. That again, I think, triggered another thought, and that is, you know, we talk about coping mechanisms again.
The language is just really negative there. Versus actually, it's what you're describing. When I think about I used to do yeah, yeah, I would go to the gym And but oftentimes we'd also a group of US colleagues at the practise.
We'd go to the pub on a Friday night or Saturday night, and we tell the most ridiculous stories. And I am certain, like when? When you see groups of people at bars at veterinary events and they're they're talking, they're not talking about how awesome they are.
They're talking about how epic the LA you know what, what they're They're comparing the size of the biggest screw ups they've ever had in their career and laughing about it because they're they're drawing the lessons. It's so it's not coping. It's processing like, what's your processing mechanism to be able to take what you've experienced, process it and then think OK, what I what I take from that to be better or what I need to change in order to make this sustainable for me, You know, I think that works macro and micro.
I was at Stephen May's, retirement at the RVC this week. I think it was this week, maybe last week. And, Steven was very big into reflection, which I know a lot of vets go.
Oh, but actually, we learned through reflection whether we realise we're doing it or not. And I suppose what you're you're saying there is, actually, which is something I think I've got clever as I've got older because I've committed to be a lifelong learner. And actually, all that means is that when you do something and it's a screw up you, if you reflect on it, you're less likely to do it again.
If you don't think about it, there's every chance that, you know, three months down the line, you do the same thing. And then that does get frustrating, because you kind of think I'm not learning and I'm not developing. So I think for me, lifelong learning is is essential.
And I think as vets or nurses, if we decide that we know it all, that is kind of almost the beginning of death, isn't it? Or losing interest in the profession? Yeah, and that's I think you're describing that sort of fixed mindset that really is a unhelpful place and does tend to be quite associated with higher levels of impostors and born out versus that more.
I'm in the dojo. I'm learning openness to the possibility that you're wrong or the failure is an option. Indeed, it's a It's a necessity if you're going to get good at anything, you know, it's like how answering the question of how do I fail in a way that I can capture the lessons without and you do grow scars?
They're called. It's called Character. You know who wants it?
Who wants a It's called weathering. Let's call it weathering Anthony, you know, you know, wisdom is weathering. You know, skills are acquired through that weathering process, so there's nothing inherently wrong in it.
It's very normal. What you've got to do is make sure that you don't have the sort of failure that's catastrophic for you and that you you you can't handle, and some of that is the situation. And some of that is your your own ego and identity and how, how vulnerable that is to the effects of knowing that you've failed.
And that seems to be a big stumbling point because a lot of people in better medicine have that fixed mindset where they've just they've they've been pushed or pushed themselves so hard. They've used the strategy to get to vet school. It was very, very successful at school.
Where wasn't really ambiguous education Not really ambiguous. You're going to show up, Go to class, ABC, you're going to have an exam on this day. If you read these past papers and study your ass off and off, you're going to pass.
If you if you've if you've got enough up there, you're going to pass that schools really no different to that. The stakes feel higher, perhaps, than when you and I went to that school, because there's more money on the line. But when you get into practise, that strategy stops working because the rules completely change.
And now you're in this ambiguous, place where No, you know, it's all on you. Your responsibility in this ambiguous world, and and stuff bleeds. It doesn't just look like it looks in the book, and clients are, you know, not playing the way we want them to play.
And we've got to talk about money and all these suddenly variables kick in and and that requires us to change our way, which is very hard. When you've got a fixed mindset. It's hard to break out of that.
But that's what's required is that openness to change and to, be willing to fail but finding a home. And I think this goes whether you're a new vet or you're like I'm doing triathlon, and that's new for me and and every step in my career, I took on a you know, every three or four years I took on a new skill set to grow or develop, where I became essentially a clueless monkey again, and I had to find mentors, and I just got better at the learning process as I got older, and and so it's, you know, managing the learning weathering process with challenges that are just outside your comfort zone. Mentors to help manage your mindset and make sure you're telling yourself the right stories and just actively managing your own mindset a little bit as well, so that you're not just in that state of negativity, so that you're you're then able to cope and to move forward and then by goal you look back in a year or two years and you think Actually I've come a really long way here and I don't suck and I do belong.
And you know, there's so many parallels between what I'm doing in triathlon and sport. And I said to my coach this year, You know, I really felt like a bit of an imposter in this sport. You you show up on the start line to these events and everyone looks either confident or super serious or they're joking like they've been there for forever.
And you think, Am I the only one that is absolutely shitting their pants here with my French? And I'm going to drown on the swim or I'm going to fall off and crash my bike and and then the race goes, how the race is going to go, and after a season and a half of doing it, I suddenly this is going to sound really dumb. Actually, I didn't really understand what a seasoned professional was like.
I some cooking reference or something like that. And then I did a season, you know, two seasons in the triathlon, I thought, Oh, it means you've done a couple of literally seasons, and now you're a seasoned athlete and I said to my coach, I didn't quite accomplish my objectives this year, but one of the things that I didn't have as an objective, but I think it's the most important thing I took away was I feel like I belong now. I feel like I'm part of this race.
I'm part of it and I don't look or feel any different on the start line. But I know everyone else is thinking the same thing as me and this is normal and I think that is true in veterinary medicine as well. So when you're worrying about whether you fit or not, you know, just do, just do.
Yeah, and I think the beauty of the career, You know, we we come from, you know, doing G CS es a Levels University and that curriculum is very set and it's not really there's not much fluidity to it. It's pretty rigid. The minute you qualify.
We're very blessed because even with the medics, I think there's still a lot of rigidity. After they qualify, we can set our own curriculum, you know, you decided to become a practise management guru. I've gone into postgraduate education.
You know, I did dermatology. I did First opinion practise. I ran an online pharmacy for a short time until I discovered Webinars that being able to change is also for me.
I think, as the character that I am, that variety was also important because I think if you are doing the same thing forever, some people you know that's absolutely great and they'll cope with that. I did need, as you said, you know, you know, doing triathlons, et cetera. It's it's challenging yourself, trying new things, isn't it Hun 100%.
And, yeah, I think you and I are cut from similar cloth and you know, we're we're I like I'm a entrepreneur trapped in a vet's body. I just didn't know what that word meant. But if I look back across my whole life, actually it's It's your problem solver who's building a business around a problem they've seen and trying to fix it and make the world a better place.
And I think that I recognise that in the work that you do certainly central to the work that I do, and and that that fits for us. But you know, there are so many. There's so much variety in veterinary medicine.
That is just the beauty of it. And, I was going to say there's a lot of diversity of thinking and brains and there's not enough diversity in many other ways in veterinary medicine. But it's got There's a home for everybody in this profession, and it's a matter of playing the pick and mix and not giving up on this place.
But but but working on ourselves and and that goes for leaders as well. Sometimes I say that people like, Yo, I kind of work myself in this crap system and that's true. There's some crap systems out there, but but my work is partly about helping leaders create better systems and places for people to ply their trade and helping the vets and the nurses and veterinary medicine work up there on the systems internally that they can have to build the foundation to grow a great clinical or otherwise career because it's one thing's for sure.
As far as I can see whatever any of us decides to do with our lives, to get good at something and to really rock the socks at something. It is going to involve us struggling, suffering and enduring pain. I don't see any other way in order to get good at something.
And what I do know about veterinary professionals are that they want to be good, and they are good. So why not make it veterinary medicine? Because the the struggle is going to be there wherever, but the struggle is not bad.
The struggle is amazing. If you've got the balance between that stress and that rest right, we could probably chat for another hour. And in fact, we must do a second podcast.
Well, we will. I want you. I want you to come on blunt dissection.
So we'll have a as long as you want. Yeah. No, that's definite, because I'd love to.
Come on that. And, you're an inspirational figure for me. You know, the stuff that you've done in your career helping people.
I think if if we can help, you know, 1 to 10 people, it makes it all worthwhile. You know, doing the job as as a leader in in the profession. And I'm sure you've helped many more than 10 people.
So thanks for all you do for the for the profession. Thank you, Anthony. And same right back at you, sir.
Thanks. Everyone for listening. This has been vet chat.
Hope to see you on a podcast or a webinar very soon. Take care. Have a great day.
Bye bye.
