Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. We're very fortunate today to have one of my coaches, mentors, whatever you want to call him, it's Sean Wensley, who I think is, is definitely my coach in all things wildlife. If I'm out bird watching.

I see, or hear usually a difficult bird. I've become very good this year, Sean. I think we've all heightened our senses haven't we, a bit with, with lockdown, going out more, listening and hearing the same birds, and then starting to recognise them and things, and I've never quite been as good at birdsong as I should be, but you've been a real help to me over the last 1218 months with sedge warblers and white throats and and all sorts.

I was, yeah, I kind of say that. And I similarly love getting your little field notes when you're out and about. And obviously, that's the beauty of phones these days, isn't it?

And WhatsApp and what have you. Yeah, no, it's been fantastic to see wildlife and appreciation of our, our local, local setting, our local environment comes to the fore in these times, these challenging times of, of lockdown, but there seems to have been something of a. A reconnection hasn't there, that lots of people have talked about.

And it's been a tragic time, hasn't it? And but hopefully in 5 years we might look back and say, within that sacrifice there was a blessing that somehow we managed to reconnect back to the environment, to appreciate the, the natural world and to cherish it more and and protect it, and this is the decade when we've got a lot of things that we need to do, haven't we? Yeah, I mean, obviously the pandemic, I think has reminded a lot of people of our vulnerability, our fragility and particularly in terms of our relationship with the natural world, and the natural forces that were never.

That far away from it can feel like we are, urbanisation and the, the man manmade environment that we, that we occupy it can just all seem so comfortable in times of plenty and but you know, we're just such a thin thread away from the natural world, aren't we? I mean, a proper ecological perspective on the position that we occupy in the world, as you say in the, in the wealthy. West, we, we are a bit insulated from disasters, but of course we've seen in the last few weeks the terrible floods in Germany, and it does show that there are definitely whoever would want to deny that there are things afoot, aren't there?

Yeah, so I guess we're all, I mean, you'd like to think everyone is at the very least peripherally aware of the climate emergency, the ecological emergency, then something like this just maybe brings to the fore, as I say, that sort of dependency that we have on, on nature, and our and our and our fragility, but it also. Reminds us of, in times of lockdown, not least, how being in green space, blue space if we have access to blue space and being surrounded by biodiversity just as you say, birdsong and. Sun rises, you know, and the the the dew on your, on your lawn in the morning if you're fortunate to have one, it just puts brings all that front and centre a bit more for people and.

By all accounts, you know, several behaviours have, have followed. People's, the number of people taking up gardening, the number of people subscribing to, wildlife and conservation charities. There seem to be multiple indicators that that that has been a real phenomenon.

Yeah. I've loved this year planting in what is usually my raised bed for vegetables, which I've given up on because the slugs destroy any spinach or lettuce I try to grow. I've, I've had a beautiful.

I, I'd like to call it a meadow, that's probably a bit grandiose, but a, a, a, a small space there full of corn flour. Various types of daisy, and it just is a magnet then of course for the bees, and, and it's just so beautiful to watch and just to relax in that space as well as and, and then the birds and everything that's around there as well. Yeah, so we're, I've had a similar experience here with my family, I mean we've not been in the house that we're in just now for too many years and .

The house itself needed a little bit of work, so we got that done first, but we are fortunate that we've got a, a modest, back garden. So when it came to them having a chance to, to, to do a bit of work on that, you know, we planted it up with nature in mind. I suppose I've always been interested in wildlife gardening.

You maybe got to do a bit of it at school and that sort of thing. So to actually have your own little patch for the first time, put a little pond in, and then look for the, I'd look for the RHS, the Royal Horticultural Society, plant for pollinators logo. So like your corn flowers and your nasturtiums and your dahlias and whatever and and fill your own little nature reserve with with habitats, nest boxes, we've got a couple of bat boxes, the little bug hotel, all the usual stuff, but it's I think.

Then the sort of sense of connection that you have, the sense of stewardship for that little patch of land, such a, and it is anyone that visits, you know, they'll tell you it's, it's pretty modest, but it's quite a profound, yeah, sense of connection. You, you can do so much. We, we, last night I was out and we had the Swifts flying and I put a Swift box up.

At my house and the neighbour's house, and I keep on saying, come over here, they still haven't quite managed to er colonise unfortunately, but it's always beautiful to hear those screeches in the late evenings as they fly overhead. So good, yeah, so just down the road, there's an institute for disabled people that reliably has house martins that nest under the eaves. So that's lovely just down the road.

And then this year for the first time I saw just a couple of weeks ago. Swifts low over our back garden, which I hadn't seen before, and I noticed they were going up to the eaves of the houses just beyond us. And I think that, you know, they're prospecting for nest sites for next year, presumably.

Yeah, we'll, we'll have a rush on, see, see who gets in. Yeah. Well, listen, I've, I've moved on very quickly because you know, we both get excited about the natural world, but of course I, I should have, of course as any good chairman should have introduced you first, but.

I, I, I'd probably introduce you as a scouser like myself, but a posh Scouser, you've brought up in Tornby, which those people who don't know is just up the coast from where I live in, in Crosby, renowned for its dunes, for its red squirrels. Of course is NASA jack toads and of course that's another little area that we've bonded on recently with me sending you some photographs of the of the tadpoles and so on. I think we have about a quarter of the nation's Nasajack toads on our dune areas, you know, over the several miles running up towards Southport, don't we?

Yeah, so very fortunate to grow up in that part of the world on the Sefton coast, and definitely, I would say to, as I was saying to you, just before anyone asks me where I'm from, I'll say Liverpool's my home city, so I, I will claim being a scouser, even if I'm not quite as scous as others. . Yeah, for me, I mean, that neck of the woods is fantastic.

We're so fortunate to have grown up there. It's lovely pine woods, sand dunes, the beaches, multiple international, conservation protections and designations because of the, the migratory waders, not least that come through. I've left now, as you, well, now I'm speaking to you from Northern Ireland, but you're still there and you're semi.

Yes. Recordings and notes and it just takes me back every time, and I love receiving them. It's good man, and of course, as well as being a vet, you, for a short period, it's a bit like today I was watching Olympic records, you know, falling.

Within a few hours of each other on the cycling, or I think one was a day, so similarly for you at the time, you were the youngest ever BVA president. Danielle has stolen that thunder away from you, but how old were you when you were BVA president? 35, 35, yeah.

And I, I think it was really great. I, I love the fact of when you were announced as BVA president, I think I've actually spoken to the comms director Sally Burne and said, Do you know what? BVA just need a young person in.

Sean Wensley would be brilliant, and she just was quiet because I think you'd already been kind of chosen as the next BVA president, and I love the fact that that. You know, we talk about the environment, we talk about nature, but actually it's all interconnected, isn't it? You know, fair trade, sustainability of the food that we eat.

So I know you were very instrumental in encouraging BVA to have food at buffets that had been sustainably produced that were fair trade produced, because if people are connected with their environment, they're more likely to respect that environment as well. . So, I, and I think for me, your biggest achievement, and I'm obviously slightly biassed because I love my birds, as you know, was the, being a part certainly of that banning of the trade of, of wild birds coming into the country.

So I'd love you to tell that story because it's such a, a lovely story of somebody who noticed a change in the world and really made in that it was a pivotal moment, it could have been lost, but. Obviously yourself, I, I know, and others were able to, to step in and and stop that terrible trade, which of course used to cause so many deaths. So tell us a little bit about that story.

Yeah, sure, well, several of the, the points you've mentioned, in those kind of few words, are linked. So, you know, I, I grew up like you, in the Northwest, spending my time out on the beach in the pine woods and just sort of. Bumbling around when I didn't have to do other things like study and you know you you did reflect on, Our, our place in the world and how we as humans interrelate with all of these wonderful birds, not least that were coming down from Canada and just passing through our little patch and then they'd be in West Africa, you know, days or a week later.

And so that was my in to, to wanting to be a vet, really, and we all come into the vetting profession from different backgrounds and interests and perspectives. So mine was like you, Anthony, I think, the very much the, the natural world. I then, I, I, I enjoyed practise.

So my first job was in Liverpool, in, in South Liverpool, and I obviously lived there at the time, and that was great. And I enjoyed that, but I'd also done a master's after, straight after vet school. In applied animal behaviour and animal welfare, so it's increasingly.

Become interested and then sort of professionally interested in the the general topic of of animal ethics and animal welfare and again sort of how we relate to other animals, how we relate to the natural world, and not only how do we relate, but how should we relate to those ethical questions. And part of that masters, I'd done a project on the welfare of captive parrots, parrots kept as pets, and indeed, in that first job in practise, we had a quite a high exotic case load, and we were, we were seeing captive parrots amongst amongst that. So there were a set of, welfare problems that frequently occur with captive pet parrots, you know, they're, they're very long lived, they're very intelligent, and yet they often live alone, they can be quite a.

Barren unstimulating cage environments and you know lots of them were feather peck and that sort of thing. But then separately, there was this question of where some of them were coming from to to become our pets, and there was a a very significant trade in, in wild courts and internationally transported parrots from both particularly South America and and Africa . So BVA's charity, the Animal Welfare Foundation, they have their annual discussion forum, which I know you support and I've been to several times, and they just asked me in, I think that was 2006, would I contribute to the programme, with a, a presentation on parrot welfare.

So I guess in normal times, I would have probably focused more on the, the captive setting than the international trade, although I'm sure I would have mentioned it, but it just so happened that at that time, There had been a case of avian flu detected at an avian quarantine facility in Essex, and that was from, that was a parrot that had been imported from er South America. And The the the trade that had been going for. You know, 20-30 years had stopped overnight, and during those 20-30 years, many arguments have been made that it should stop, that it was unethical and unsustainable, and that was on three principal counts.

One was the potential risk of importing an important pathogen. That could be, exactly, that could be zoonotic and commercially important if it went into domestic livestock. 2, just the unsustainable harvest, so this was a principal driver of endangerment, for, for several of these species, and 3, animal welfare, which was, you know, the crude capture methods, and there was a lot of mortality at successive, points in the supply chain.

So it stops overnight and I was just in that position of giving this presentation saying, well, you know, it seems to me that we, the veterinary profession, could. Get you join others to make the call that this should be made an indefinite ban rather than temporary because we care not least about infectious disease risk and importation of pathogens, and of course we can care about animal welfare, . I would say even on the 3rd now we've as a profession we've we've come to the fore on the conservation angle as well, so I think we're we're fighting on all, you know, we're advocating on all areas now, but then the strongest argument seems pathogen risk and pathogen instruction risk and animal welfare and happily BVA here wasn't so closely involved with it at the time, considered it through the policy committee and said yeah, you know, we, we would agree.

And that position was then, that BVA position was adopted by the Federation of Vets of Europe, so this was a, a Europe wide trade. These birds were coming into Europe. And so I think it helped that FPE took a strong stance as well and got a long story short, as you say, working alongside the World Parrot Trust, RSPB, RSPCA on the, the welfare side, not least, the, the trade was banned permanently in January 2007.

Which is just such a great story. I've been lucky enough to go to Costa Rica, which is probably one of the most biodiverse countries in the world, and to see a flock of Scarlett McCall fly across the forest clearing is a moment you'll never forget. It's just such a, a beautiful thing to see.

Yeah, absolutely fantastic. So I think there was an estimated 4 million birds annually that would be spared. Yeah.

It's a great legacy, you know, for you and and the people who were, you know, involved in that, like the RSPB and the Parrot Trust and stuff. Yeah. Well, I remember being on, we were doing, we did some, we presented at certain meetings at the European institutions, the, the parliament and the commission, so I was going in and out of Brussels.

With these colleagues on Eurostar at the time, and, you know, I was sitting next to the people who'd been lobbying on this for the best part of 20 years, you know, so I felt a bit in that sense a bit of a fraud state sort of swat in at an opportune moment right at the end. So thank you so much for for that amazing work that you've done, . Cause of course, you know, we've talked about this before, all of this, you know, you really helped to, I think, bring, it was very much a part of your theme of your three years with BVA was, was all around, you know, welfare, but also one health, sustainability, which I know people like Simon Docherty are very much pushed forward on as well, but .

We, we, we need to be producing food in a sustainable way, don't we? In a regenerative way maybe now as well. Yeah, absolutely.

So whilst I kind of focus in through my my masters and beyond on on animal welfare in particular, and then even more focused on the veterinary profession's role in improving animal welfare, both in practise and policy. Particularly in the area of of food production, you're right, this then into animal welfare as a a policy area intersected with, So many other globally important issues and you're quickly thinking about the food system, aren't you, the global food system and our ability to feed what we know is a very rapidly escalating human population, so. One that's predicted to go from wherever we are now about 7.5 billion people now to 10, 9 to 10 billion by 2050.

How do you produce enough food for all these hungry mouths in a way that, Is fair to animals, fair to producers, doesn't harm or further harm the environment, preserves biodiversity, if not pro protects and promotes biodiversity, doesn't increase the risk of AMR, you know, all of these massive global challenges, but. I've massively enjoyed that as well, and working with people like Simon who you've mentioned and many others who I suppose take that kind of systems thinking. Yeah approach to, to, and it's not even just the, the science of all that, you know, the ethics that goes with it as well, how do you make sure that because it involves trade-offs, you're trying to find a, a sort of a a fair line of best fit through all of those problems.

And not being binary, but, but being more sophisticated than that and and triangulating and coming to the right. Decisions in the end, we, we as you probably know, helped WBA with a food security webinar and and one of the, the speakers was from Guel very much talking about that, how do we get to, 10 million people, but actually start pulling the planet back as well and it's interesting to see that business is starting to think, and even shareholders are now starting to look for companies that aren't just profit centres but are looking at those three areas, the ESG, the environment, social and governance, you know, that they are so important and in some ways that's a message that's been going in the. Environmental forum for a long time, but it's, we need business to come into that and it's, it's great to see that that is starting to happen and of course, the end of this year we've got COP 26 in In Glasgow as well, so there's, there are huge opportunities to start really moving into a more positive future, aren't there?

Yeah, and I mean, I'm really interested in. You know, there's this idea that if we carry on on our current. Trajectory then meat and dairy consumption and production will need to double by 2050, and so.

That sort of mindset is then focused there, OK, well we just need to make things more efficient, more productive and, you know, it's all about mitigation, but a, a different approach would say kind of start with well, How many mouths have we got to feed and how could we do it in a way that's sympathetic, most sympathetic to the environment and to animals, and have that as your start point and maybe challenge a bit more the inevitability of just ever increasing production and consumption. It's thinking in a different way, isn't it, and it's moving from food and saying, well, could we eat less meat, but better quality meat. Can we produce in a different way.

It's there's some really interesting. Philosophical discussions, isn't it? Yeah, and that's where I've been really fascinated to sort of get to through some of the, the policy discussions, with, with the profession, you know, with, with, I'll say with BVA but not forgetting that BVA has all of the species specialist associations feeding in, so that includes obviously the, the farm animal divisions as well, because of course you're also Sean very much involved now with FE which is the Federation of Vets in Europe.

Within, within the various committees as well, aren't you? Yeah, I chair FEE's Animal welfare Working Group, but both FEE and BVA now have beautiful er policy positions on sustainable animal agriculture, you know, so we, we have done a lot of this thinking and captured the sort of and articulated a a veterinary vision and as you say, it includes advocating less and better meat consumption, which I think is on the face of it, a bit challenging for some people, but once you look into the whys and wherefores and start then. Identifying and showcasing exactly as you just said, some of the vets who are doing brilliant work on regenerative agriculture and agroecology and you know, higher welfare, farming.

I, I think you and I have both said previously we're both optimists, but there's enough to be optimistic about that there aren't just inevitable harmful trajectories. And of course BVA FEE and also WVA very much involved in that, as I say, the, the food security. Symposium that we hosted that's still on the site, I'll make sure Charlie puts that link in somewhere, is well worth watching for those who are listening and haven't seen it yet cos it really was eye opening for me as someone.

Who thinks he knows a little bit about the the topic, so it's well worth watching. Yeah, that's, that's really good. So I know domestically, you know, BVA have done work to that had identified through their Voice of the Veterinary Profession survey that 79% of vets that we vets should be playing a greater role in the sustainability agenda, and that's helped prompt some of the, the green team vet work that's going on.

And WVA just last December, you probably saw published their policy position on the, the global climate emergency and. Yeah. Their thoughts about the veterinary response to that, so it has all come to the fore.

It's. And, you know, also the very important work you're doing with Vet Sustain, which I think is just raising that profile. What was really good in one of our early webinars in this series was we managed to get Craig Bennett, who's the CEO of the Wildlife Trust to speak, and he said.

You know, vets, you're well respected in the community, if you're doing things like putting solar panels on your roof, if you've got a wildlife garden and planting some trees, if you've got space. That, that creates waves amongst the general population because they see that vets are interested in it, and maybe we should be interested in it as well. Yeah, I, I really support that because things that we do as vets, so I think both, particularly in the medical profession and the NHS have now grasped the.

Carbon and environmental impact of, of medicine and medicine and surgery and those activities and have various pledges and commitments and work plans to to work towards net zero and and so on. That then is now being seen and talked about in the, in the veterinary profession, which I think's really great. So there's what there's the practical stuff that we just have to do.

Because, you know, everyone in society needs to do their, their bit practically, but absolutely, I think part of this is if trusted credible professionals do some of these things and talk about them and prompt and participate in societal discourse about the importance of some of these activities. Then I think that amplifies, you know, our contribution beyond, I'll say just the everyday practical actions, which of course is so important as well, but yeah, I think our role. Signalling to society that this is important needs to be taken seriously.

And we probably need to draw it to a close, Sean, but we could probably speak for several hours, but I think it would only be the two of us left on at the end, or only some really committed, but you know, I know you're working with BDSA and there's, there's some lovely stories we're seeing it, you know, across Liverpool, our, our Metro mayor gave quite a lot of money in grants. For different organisations to, to rewild or do things that would enhance the natural world. So my wife actually won a grant for 1500 pounds for her school to put in a bee garden, to grow some wildlife meadows, some place for the birds, some trees.

So it's really fantastic work going on, you know, as I said, I've been doing a, a small little wildlife. Meadow outside my house, but also at the office that we have. But I know PDSA also in Kirkdale, the Scousers are taking the lead here in sustainability.

Tell me a little bit about the, the beautiful garden that they have in Kirkdale as well. Yeah, no, well, well done to your wife first and that's great that she got that for her school, . Yeah, so this was, I mean, an example of, of local action.

So we've got one of our 48 PDSA pet hospitals is in Kirkdale and Liverpool. And the team there just essentially off their own bat, you know, they had a, a vet and a vet nurse who were, I think one of them, is a conservation volunteer in her spare time anyway, and the other one had a keen interest. And they had a little raised bed, and so they took us, as a first step, the, the idea to.

Just reinvigorate that and get it planted up and have some veg and flowers, and then, you know, they saw that that was part of a a slightly bigger space at the back of the hospital, and they've basically just done a small wildlife garden, I think they got a small grant to put in some young trees as well. There's a little bench and you know it it's, it's great. Because they'll post, we have like an internal, sort of organisational Facebook type thing.

They post pictures and you can see that there's, there's the aesthetic beauty, they like to see it and it's sort of spruced up a little dull patch at the back. But then there's the, the importance of taking breaks, taking breaks in the, in their natural space, and, you know, they go out and they, and they use it that way, which is so important as well. And I think as you said, if, if you think of the, the potential for veterinary practises, just there is.

What, 5000 odd of us. If each of us does something like that, it's that thing about, you know, you've said before, think, think global act local. You can make a meaningful contribution if everyone just puts in a fairly modern.

And of course that space will be a really positive space for mental health, you know, we, it's another podcast, but we're aware of the pressures that. Vets and nurses and and the whole practise team are under at the moment with the pandemic and the shortage of vets, and it's, as you say, it's so important, you know, I say to my own team, working remotely, you must take breaks, you must have a lunchtime, etc. You know, and enjoy nature at the same time as well.

That's right, yeah, and that brings us back totally, I mean that's one health front and centre, isn't it? I mean, I, I've always thought over the years, OK, well, I'm sure and you're Anthony, you like the skylarks, I like squirrels, but other people. People like them less than us and they go, you know, so what, how do we demonstrate the value of, of nature to, to society and the increasing body of evidence that links access to green space, so access to green space and access to a range of plants and animals, in our everyday lives is, is linked to improved psychological wellbeing and of course physical health opportunities as well.

So I've really. Enjoyed seeing that come to the fore of agencies like Natural England, initiatives like the recent Mental Health Awareness Week, you know, I think we're seeing many more examples are both in policy and practise of human wellbeing and nature intertwined, being completely intertwined, yeah, yeah. Sean, we'll finish off with a little bit of bragging rights from me.

Tomorrow I'm driving down towards London to a wedding for a very good friend of mine, but I will have some time when I'm down there to go, just close to the RSPCA headquarters to Net estate. To have a little wander around their rewilding project, so I don't know if you've been down to Nep yet. I haven't, no, heard a lot about it, but so it could be a first for me to, I'll I'll, I'll try and send you some nice photographs, but thanks for everything that you do.

Within the veterinary profession for the great work that you obviously do at the PDSA, but particularly, you know, the work that you're doing around regeneration, sustainability, animal welfare. Fantastic legacy around the, the wild birds that you've saved over the last 1020 years, as well as obviously the other people who were involved in that, and and thanks for just being a, a great advocate and a great example. Within the veterinary profession, so thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Anthony, thanks for having me just now, but also for all of your support and encouragement over the year and the platforms that you give us for these various topics through the webinar vets and this, this vet chat just now. You've been a a great sport over many years, thank you. Thanks.