Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast. I'm really, really pleased today to have Hans Balder, who is going to be speaking to us. Hans is an animal scientist based in Waining in the in the Netherlands.
And we're gonna be talking today about a, a special project that's come from the European Commission, called the Healthy Livestock Project. Which Hans has been very involved in, so Hans. Great to meet you, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Tell us a little bit about more about your background there as an animal scientist. Yeah, of course. Hi, nice to meet you too.
My background, yes, well, I'm an animal scientist. I actually graduated in Maha in, quite a few years ago now, and then, I spent some time, I, I, I was trained as an animal behaviour specialist. So I'm an applied ethologist, what, what, what they call it.
And I did my PhD in in the UK actually in, in the 90s when The field of animal welfare of animal behaviour was growing rapidly when there were a lot of concerns in the industry about keeping sows in groups rather than keeping them individually housed. How do you deal with the aggression between the sows in the group, and I did my PhD, on that, spent a few years there, worked there, and then came back to the Netherlands, a few years ago to work again for. That's fantastic, and I remember again qualifying 33 years ago tomorrow and of course animal behaviour was was very much new on the curriculum, it was something that we didn't really talk about and then we we had Professor Donald Broome came into the profession as the first professor of animal behaviour based I think in Cambridge.
But because he was the only one, he lectured all of us, so he he wandered around the country. Lecturing us and of course it's become such a, a bigger topic and I think we talk about healthy livestock and we talk about health ourselves. Again going back 30 years, it was very much around the health of the person, was physical health.
But of course mental health is, is equally important and the two things come together and affect each other, don't they, so is this where. Healthy livestock came from or was there another reason why the EU er set up this er particular project? Well, in a way, there is a there there's a link there in what you're saying.
So yes, from the veterinary perspective, we look at animal pathogens and at animal diseases and how to prevent infections, and then if an animal is diseased, how to, how to cure them. From an animal welfare point of view, a lot of the discussion is also on how to prevent disease in other, in other ways. So how can we keep the animal happy but also healthy because it is, it is, it is happy.
If you like, and that is part of the background or part of the, one of the strategies maybe I should say that the healthy livestock project is, has picked up when, when we apply for the work. Now, I have to go back the the project comes from a call from the European Commission about 8 or 9 years ago now. When they invited, a scientific consortia to look into the issue of antimicrobial resistance and a reduction of antimicrobial resistance by or through reducing the need to use antimicrobials.
So really the aim of the project or the aim of a proposal should be, excuse me, to reduce the need for antimicrobials, and that was the challenge we were set and that we applied for. And then our strategy was fourfold. The first part of the project dealt with, biosecurity.
Can you avoid pathogens for coming on the farm because if you don't have pathogens, the animals won't be diseased. Second one is, can you make animals resilient? Can you make them able to resist, any, any pathogenic challenges?
The third one would be if an animal would become diseased, can you detect that as early as possible, as quickly as possible, so that you can treat them, because the 4th step, of course, is accurate and precise treatment of individual animals. And these 4 strategies are the backbone of the healthy livestock project with which we try to reduce the need for antimicrobials. So yes, animal welfare.
Resilience, preventing disease is a very strong element in this in this project. And I believe the European Commission also brought in China into that project as well, so you've been working with Chinese scientists around this as well, because there is a worry sometimes that antimicrobial resistance, you know, we in Europe are trying to do better. I know, I think there was a stat recently you you get the right number for me, but.
In the agricultural sector in Holland, in in the Netherlands, you've actually halved your antibiotic use over the last few years, haven't you? Yeah, probably more than half. Yeah, so that's, that's good progress.
The Chinese were heading in the other direction. The Chinese were heading to be using about 60% of the world's, amount of antibiotics by 2030, 60% in one country of the world consumption. So they were going in the opposite direction and just like in Europe, there were strong concerns there that this was not going in the right way and that should be reduced.
So the Chinese government, the Ministry of Science and Technology. Awarded a budget for any consortium who could tackle this at the same time as that the European Commission did that and they requested any consortium to work together. So we had a Chinese team, we had a European team, both of us going through the four strategies to support a reduction.
And I believe Hans, there's been good progress in that . You know, again, from when I was at university, the Chinese were still using antibiotics as growth promoters, and that's now been banned, hasn't it? Yeah, that's been banned not so many years ago, actually.
I think it was even during the, the, the running of the project that the final ban came through as a growth promoter. But of course there are thin lines and you can still use a lot of antibiotics, even if you don't call it a growth promoter, but you use it because you are fearing that there's going to be diarrhoea in the pigs or something like that, and, and then you, so, . There are still loopholes in Europe, of course, we banned it quite a few years ago, many years ago, but also in Europe, the amounts of use are still too high.
And when we talk about resilience, obviously resilience also comes from our, our genotype as well as our phenotypes. So do you see that the way that we breed is, is coming into that. So I think about Holstein cows when I was a student, I was lucky enough to do my er dairy farming in.
Otebek in in the Netherlands with the Rhine Masacil cow, which was a lovely cow. And of course now we have the whole steins that produce so much milk that need, you know, really to, to take a lot of protein, a lot of food and to produce that. And after 4 years, 4 or 5 years, they are taken away from, from the herds.
Do you think there there needs to be a move towards. Being more gentle with the cows, the pigs, the, the broilers, not to expect them to grow so fast or to produce so much and therefore maybe to last longer and have a happier life that way as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think resilience is resilience is affected by a number of or can be affected by a number of different .
things, genetics certainly, is, is among them. It's quite easy. I, I don't like, anthropomorphisms, but it is quite easy to understand from a human perspective, what elements are involved there.
It's, it's things like good food, it's, like a happy environment that makes you more resilient, but it's also, your genetics, some people are simply more prone to to stress. Than than other people are. Well, it's exactly the same for for animals.
And what we are looking for in the project is to see what elements in practical husbandry conditions for pigs and poultry. I hadn't mentioned that yet, but those are the two species that are in the project. Which practical elements can be applied so that the levels of stress that the animals experience are as low as possible and so that then they can withstand the pathogenic challenge a bit better.
We did look at genetics. That's a very long term. I mean, breeding companies are looking at that.
They, they are definitely looking at that, but for our project, that was a too long term goal to be trying to, to fulfil, but we mainly looked at husbandry conditions. Yeah. And I suppose looking at those two animals, the, the pig and the chicken, they are usually farmed in a very intensive way, but there is a move, I think, towards more extensive and organic type production as well.
So when I go to my supermarket in Liverpool. Looking for free range or organic, looking for outdoor breed and reared pigs is something that I want to do as a vet, and I accept that I will need to pay more for that meat. So I think we're seeing a movement by the market, if you like, by people that want to have.
Maybe to eat less meat, but to eat meat that they feel is of better quality and has had better welfare. I'm sure you're seeing the same thing in the Netherlands as well. Yeah, certainly, and in in Europe there's a, there's a push and a pull if you like the push is by at least well the European Union, of course, through the legislation to enforce certain legislation, but the same applies in many other countries that are not in the EU, of course, that the government set minimum standards, the pool is from the market and people in supermarkets definitely in .
Western Europe, but increasingly so in the rest of of Europe and indeed the rest of the world are asking or requiring more and more that the animals are kept in in in in a life worth living, that they have had a life worth worth. So that's and then in the supermarket that is often associated with extensiveness. You see on the package, you see, a happy pig with the sun in the back and, and you know, the feet in the grass, and that's the ideal situation for, for keeping pigs, of course, and consumers are willing to pay more for that.
So extensification is an important one. And then the elements of extensification that are at the same time, I think the elements that will reduce resilience are space. The quantity of space, but also the quality of the space, or what sort of enrichment, do you have?
They are the breed, you know, are you better able or not to withstand the challenges and to thrive outside, and they are feed. So what do you eat? What do you take in?
That those elements will those four elements will determine eventually what the quality is of the of the meat that you have and to a large extent also how the animal lives and whether it's got a happy life. And I suppose we we can almost say sometimes we buy the more expensive meat because we think it tastes better. But is that again a sort of a bias that we feel because we're spending more on it?
Therefore it must taste better and, and we expect it to taste, it's a bit like the bottle of wine that you buy for 30 pounds as opposed to 5. You kind of really want to convince yourselves that it tastes nicer, don't you? Yeah, I don't know whether that's an element, Anthony.
It could, it could very well be. What is a fact, I think is that if you produce extensively, then it will cost more to to rear a chicken or a or a pig. So that there is an added price to it that the farmer will need more money to be able to produce in that way.
For me that's that's that's obvious. We were with our, one of our projects. We were in Spain the other day and we could buy Parma, no, no Palma, of course, what are they call Serrano hams there for €450 a ham and which for me is a little bit over the the, the budget, that, that we had.
For others it would be, as you say, maybe a sign of, of quality. I don't know. What I know is that it will cost more to produce in an extensive way.
Whether you also taste it is a matter of debate. And another project I'm involved in, which is called Meat Quality, we are actually looking at those parameters of extensification. We are looking at what the effects are of those on the quality of the product, and many people would say that they can taste it.
So we want to know for sure, we're gonna do a blind taste panels and we're gonna measure, you know, all the content that we can think of, the chemical content and composition of the, of the pork and of the broiler meat to see if indeed it's true. That, that you can actually also taste the difference, just like people say they can taste it, in the wine. And I, I certainly hope it's more than just the price ticket that that will make you buy an expensive product.
I also hope that you will will enjoy a better quality of the, of the product itself. And I think it's also the provenance, you know, again for me as a vet, I want to know, as you said, that the cows had the, or the pig or the sheep or or the . Well, the chicken has had a good life and a good death, so actually from cradle to to grave if you like, or to abattoir that it's been treated in a, in a decent and appropriate way because we, we're stewards of the animals rather than overlords of the animals, aren't we?
So yeah, that's it, exactly that. Yeah. Yeah, so, so fully agree and I know there's an added price.
I know that at the moment, there's an economic crisis in in many countries and yes it will cost more to buy this higher quality product. I still believe that quite a few of us, the majority of us are probably definitely in Western Europe can make that can take that step. We can, we should be able to afford, doing that.
And it's, yeah, let's, let's just grow in that direction, together. On the one hand, making sure that it can still be produced, because as I said, the farmer needs the, the money, they just can't do it by themselves. That it can be produced so that we have got an extra price or an extra financial reward for the farmer and at the same time making sure that what we think we buy is also what we, what we get.
So things like authenticity, like quality, etc. Etc. Of the pork is very important to keep the consumers buying these these products, and I think the animal the animal will benefit in the end.
So buying probably less meat potentially for all sorts of reasons, obviously the environmental reason. But making sure it's of better quality, better welfare is is perhaps the way that the world is going, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
At least in our part of the world, because we, you know, we shouldn't close our eyes to what's happening around us, and there are of course growing economies, you know, outside North America, Oceania, Europe that have quite a steep increase in meat consumption. So of course we have to find ways of producing sufficient protein for those parts of the world as well. It's not an easy question to challenge, but I hope that the production methods that we are globally going to apply will not go the route that we've done in Western Europe, another big pig producing or poultry producing countries where we first have to suffer, where the climate first has to suffer.
And the environment first has to suffer before we get to a production level that both consumers as well as the market, as well as the animals can, can, can, can handle and can deal with. That's not gonna be an easy, challenge, but yeah, that's the way it's heading. Did you know the webinar vet has a public community Facebook group?
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The webinar that community on Facebook. It's also interesting, I think sometimes people say extensive is always going to be better, but of course you can have poor quality welfare and extensive systems if they're not looked after properly. In some ways maybe the husbandry is, is more difficult in an extensive system.
Yeah, it takes a different farmer. When I started working in the UK in the early 90s. And sows had to be taken out of, the individual stalls to be put into groups.
It, it was acknowledged, I suppose, by, by everybody, that you need a different way of working with your animals to allow that to happen. Also, it's sad to say, that many UK farmers stopped, during those years because they couldn't handle this different type of of husbandry, and the same again happened in the rest of Europe when. In 20, was it 2013 it became compulsory in, in the rest of Europe.
So, yes, it takes a different way of farming and yeah, maybe not everybody wants to do that or even is able to do that but I think it's, it's, it's a way that it's gonna go nevertheless it's gonna go that way with and then I hope that that our farmers can. Can, can cling on and obtain the knowledge that they need, to be able to, to keep the animals in in such a way. And then of course there's the market question whether, you know, we need so much production, but, yeah, that, that, that's something that will balance out, I'm sure.
Obviously, Hans, you know, I know you're an animal scientist, but The Federation for Vets in Europe have also been very involved in this project on the Healthy Livestock Commission, haven't they? So how do vets and animal scientists work together to make sure that we make the progress that we've obviously seen with this project? Any, any tips?
Yeah, well, veteran involvement is crucial. It's, it's crucial, because of their direct link with with the farmers, you know, every day. And so we we're very pleased that FAE joined our consortium as one of the lead partners.
FEE was in the, in the core team together with Vingen. And the, the, the big advantage of having them, of course, is because of their direct access to all the veterinarians in in Europe. The our technical information, the suggestions, the ideas, but also in the other direction, the concerns from veterinarians, what is it that they need to be able to inform farmers better.
So that's the other direction of the information, and both of those have been very beneficial for the for the project. And we're now in a phase of final reporting so the outcomes of the project that can be found on our on our website are now disseminated mainly through FEE who are our communications, who were in the lead for communications are now disseminated via FEE through the veterinary membership and it's really important. And perhaps we can mention the the website where we can find the report.
Is the report actually on the website yet or just about to come on to it? It is on the website and the website is called, and I always forget, but I got it here, healthy livestock.net.
So www.healthy livestock.net.
That's very easy to remember, but we will also put that under the podcast so that people can look through that and find it as well. This sounds like it's been an amazing project. Anything that, encourages health, both physical and mental health in, in livestock is something that I, We'll be 100% behind.
I think it's also interesting that by doing that, we've also been able to reduce antimicrobials, which of course is massively important, and I know that the Netherlands has led the way on this. I suppose to finish just very quickly with, That's a tiny controversial point. I noticed recently that the Dutch government were having lots of protests from the farmers because they were buying up farms and trying to and closing them down.
The Dutch government has just fallen. This is obviously an area that is. Very controversial in the Netherlands, but in some ways, again with our net zero hats on, and also perhaps with the amount of meat that's getting produced, we need to perhaps start to look at different ways of doing things, don't we?
Yeah, and . Yeah, I really hope that our new government will be able to to, to, to deal with that challenge. Yes, the government fell.
There is a huge swing in the public debate in the Netherlands at the moment with representative party representing the farmers, increasing enormously in in size, so we have new elections coming up and we'll see what comes in. They, they will have the same challenge as the current government, and that's to reconcile the needs of our, our environment, our nature, with the needs of of the farmers, and, and find solutions to, you know, to stop, the, the impact that farming has on the, on the environment, and that's definitely not gonna be, not gonna be easy. Just for information, the topic is probably gonna be controversial in the Netherlands, so it's not going to be discussed while the new government is not in place, so by the government, so it will take, it, it'll be on hold for at least a year or something like that, and then, yeah, I hope they can take the next steps and it will involve pro yeah, most likely will involve reducing the size of of our farming industry.
And I, I had a very enjoyable day a couple of months ago at the Osvada Place and where the Netherlands is doing such great work on regeneration. Obviously also a controversial project I know, but it's beautiful to see the birds and, and the, the horses and the cattle there living in very sort of free roaming space. It's a romantic view.
Of course we've got to get the welfare right in those situations as well, but a beautiful part of the world and, and great to see what the Netherlands can do as a very small country. We in the UK are one of the least biodiverse countries in the EU, and so we definitely look towards the Netherlands to what you're getting up to as well. OK, thank you.
Yes, it is a beautiful place. I fully agree. I live there, only about 20 kilometres away, so I go there very regularly.
So yeah, it's excellent. Hans, it's been so good to speak to you, really appreciate the time you've given me today, but also the fantastic work that's been done through this project, which I know you've been so involved in. Please do keep up the good work and hopefully we'll get to speak another time very soon.
Take care. Toxins. Thank you very much.
Phil Sims, thanks very much
