Hello. It's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinar vet welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat the U K's number one veterinary podcast. And I must admit, I spent quite a lot of time on LinkedIn and, one of my old lecturers and I'd like to say friends, from Liverpool University popped up with her new business that she started, and, we got chatting again.
We thought we'd, we'd meet up on the podcast to have a chat about old times, but also new times as well. So, Jackie, welcome to that chat. Thank you very much indeed.
Antony. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
And, of course, you you were my, or one of my anaesthesia lecturers at Liverpool University way back in the eighties. I really spent a lot of your career within anaesthesia, haven't you? Yes.
Yes, I fell into it by accident. I wanted to be a surgeon, and then I saw the light. But no II.
I was fortunate enough when I worked at Glasgow as the equivalent of a, an intern, to be offered a job at Liverpool, which is where I did my anaesthesia training and subsequently PhD in anaesthesia. And, of course, it was such a great time at Liverpool because the, the equine department, it's It's nothing like a sort of, an equine colic case to, really test your nerve as an anaesthetist. Is that Well, it's it.
It made me a bit complacent, to be honest, equine anaesthesia at Liverpool because I thought I'd seen everything done Everything. If you're on call, you're always in because there was always a colic or something else. And there there's one amazing evening night, actually where we had two Caesarean sections, two Colics and a tors U uterine torsion in a mare.
And it was like sort of stacking them up. I don't think I'll ever forget that. And then watching the wonderful Barry Edwards teaching at three o'clock in the morning, drawing things on the board.
Yeah, he was amazing, wasn't he? I did my equine elective when I was at university, although I didn't really do much horse work once I qualified, but having two or three weeks with Barry sort of passing him syringes and scalpel blades. The man was a genius, wasn't he?
And sadly missed. And so such a gentleman. So quiet.
I never saw him upset or angry. Or, you know, he's always such as, Well, not not all surgeons are like that. And of course not all anaesthetists are like that either, are they, Jackie?
No, that's true. That's true. So, Jackie, after you left Liverpool, you you went to the A HT for quite a long time, didn't you?
And then back to Cambridge? Yes. When I went down to the Animal Health Trust, I felt as though, as I said, I was an equine anaesthetist and then suddenly found out I couldn't keep two year old race horses that got chip fractures on the gallops on the table.
They were either trying to die or trying to leave the operating room. So I had to. That was another step up in my education.
Equine anaesthesia is was then quite a, it it was an art. It wasn't a science. So I moved more into small animal where you could more finally control things, and it was much more akin to human anaesthesia where you you were much more in in control.
Do you think the the the thoroughbreds just more flighty and, more difficult to put under than, you know, the standard horses that you're perhaps seeing up at Liverpool at Liverpool? I wasn't dealing generally with really fit horses, and I think that's the difference. It's not the the temperament it's, although there is some evidence to show that temperament does affect certainly the quality of recovery.
Yeah, but I think it was more that you were dealing with athletes who just work differently than than Yeah, their physiology is different from the rest of Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And then, of course, went over to to Cambridge, doing more teaching there as well. But then, helped to set up the clinical skills lab, which obviously it's a fairly new thing, isn't it?
It wasn't something that we really had at Liverpool when I was No. There's a very good one at Liverpool now. well, all the clinical skills labs, I think they're amazing environments.
And, yes, I was lucky enough to be asked to, set it up and get it going, and it really grew, and now it's certainly at Cambridge, and I think at most other vet schools is a very integral part of the teaching curriculum. Yeah, I mean, it's getting more difficult, I suppose, to also get hold of cadavers and and also putting yourself in that situation of how do you operate If a dog bleeds during, an anaesthetic or something? And it's, we We were only at Cambridge.
We only were doing clinical skills rather than the anatomy and things like that. There is a big move away from using cadavers, partly because of the ethical problems involved and partly because of availability as well, they try to teach in clinical skills are very basic things, like the right way to hold a scalpel. So you could say, for example, putting in an intravenous catheter is a skill, but it isn't.
It's actually a composite skill made up of an enormous number of things which so the clinical skills facilities are generally there to try and train the neuromuscular memory of doing particular manoeuvres prior to the students, taking those into the clinical setting, Hm. So they don't need to worry about how to hold a scalpel or hold needle holders. They know how to do that.
All they've got to worry about is the animal in front of them. Did you start using, mixed reality and virtual reality? Do you think?
Is that the next stage of the development of clinical skills with haptic technology and so on? Yeah, we we did have a haptic horse and a haptic cow. That was developed by Sarah Bailey.
That was a is a very basic haptic device. And now, with virtual reality, headsets and things, things have moved on so far. And it's fine as long as you've got the money because these are expensive.
Yeah, Yeah, they're very good for teaching soft skills. So they're very good for immersive experiences and T training behaviours. But they they they aren't they be all and end all of how do you make an incision or how do you suit you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's still a practical skill that we hopefully get when we go on EMS and so on. The aim of the clinical skills centres is to equip students with those skills before they go on EMS.
So EMS is starting to be more about the cases involved and communication within the teams and with clients and and so forth. So yes. And of course, that is relatively easy to teach.
Stitching within a clinical skills setting, isn't it? Yes. Yes.
Single handed knock ties are a different kettle of fish. Not quite so simple. Yeah, yeah.
No, this is you definitely need two hands, don't you? Now I know people listening. And perhaps seeing this podcast will will be amazed if I say that you have sort of retired from veterinary work.
But you've actually taken on a new, a new challenge, haven't you? Yes, I'm I'm in the process. Very organic.
Slow process of setting up a business, hopefully setting up a business making preservatives and ferment ferment. Well, I include ferment because that is a very ancient way of preserving food. They have refrigerators.
You've taught me because, of course, we all know that wine and alcohol, and indeed bread is fermented. But I wasn't really aware that chocolate and tea and coffee were So I've I've learned something where we were chatting beforehand. But, you you have quite a name for your marmalade, I believe, around and about.
Well, I've I've entered the Dalmain Marmalade Awards for about four or 54 years. Now I have to confess. Although I say I've got award winning marmalade, I'm not quite sure that they give Don't give awards to everybody who enters, if you see what I mean.
But I, I have had so, silver medals and those are distinctly higher up the the quality than the, the basics certainly is. And the the latest one I've done, which I didn't enter this year, is a chilli marmalade, which is awesome. And you're quite well known for your carrot chutney as well, aren't you?
Yes. Now, that is something that I personally really like. I can eat it by the spoonful.
But a friend across the road who is a Cordon Bleu chef, I gave him a jar, not really thinking, and they came back and said, normally, I really, really dread anybody giving me chutneys. But yours is so good. Can we have another jar that gave me the confidence to, yes, to make more, obviously a hobby that you enjoy a passion that you have, but I think also it kind of takes us back to the more basic food types.
A lot of our diets now are very highly processed, aren't they? You know, we have an epidemic of diabetes because of the high sugar levels of foods. Is that something that you see sort of coming back?
Is there quite a movement around preservatives and ferment when you go around the country, or is it still quite niche? I The trouble is that you tend to live in your own bubble, don't you? Yeah.
So a lot of people I know are very aware of the problems of eating processed food and are moving away from it. And for me, I think it's quite there's quite a lot of awareness. I'm not sure that you can say that is true across the board.
I don't know. I don't know. It is that living in your own bubble syndrome, maybe tell us a little bit about how you make the marmalade and how you source things.
Because obviously, you're making quite a bit now, aren't you? So the kitchen is is getting full of oranges and strawberries and things, I presume? Yes.
Yesterday I just took delivery of 6 kg of lemons. Yes. I try and source only organic food.
And there is a third party app called crowd Farming, which puts you in touch with growers of, Citrus fruit in Spain and all over the continent. Actually, so you're actually buying directly from the farmers. So and there's no air miles involved.
It's all trucked or be it. Yeah, there's a problem with that. It's all organic.
It's all certified organic. So that's where I get my basic ingredients for the marmalade from. And then the sugar I buy from an organic wholesaler.
So 25 kg of sugar I didn't really clock how much that was until I thought, Oh, I better move that sugar and found that I couldn't actually lift it. So that was Yeah, that that was a learning curve. And the vegetables, I buy from organic Cambridge Organic, which is an organic vegetable fruit company retailer in the area.
Is it getting more difficult to bring the, lemons and the oranges in because of Brexit? Is that affecting you yet or is that no, no, it it it has been seamless. It's the one thing in my life that seems to be really quite easy.
You know, you put your order in, they pick to to demand. And you get your fruit within three days of it being on the tree. Are you currently looking for a new role?
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I've just come back from walking the Camino to Santiago de Compostela and saw a lot of lemon and orange trees that were laden with fruit. So had I known I could have, the rucksack for you, but they're still on the tree. That's one of the things on my bucket list is doing the, that pilgrimage The CA Yeah, it was, first time for me, and it was 100 and 20 kilometres first half in the pouring rain.
But as long as you've got the right clothes, you're not too bad. But there was one day where it particularly peddled down all day. And I must admit, by the time I got to the, to the bar for a well end beer, I was a bit your sense of humour.
The head went down and I just moved on to get to the finish. I don't know if there was a lot of prayer going on, but then no, no words that I would like to repeat here. Obviously, it sounds really interesting and best of luck with the business.
And, hopefully at some point we can have a a little banner on the Webinar vet site where people can buy their marmalade and strawberries. We'll look out for that. Clearly.
Part of your reason to do it is because you want to kind of live a bit more likely in the processed food is takes a lot more to make from an energy perspective. But of course, anaesthetics as well. We've become more aware with the work of people like Ellie West and Ron Jones about the, the greenhouse gas effect of anaesthetics.
Is that something towards the end of your time at Cambridge that there was an awareness of and people were starting to look at different options. You know, total intravenous anaesthetics. I think I found as I've delved into sustainability, though the problem is that nothing is black and white.
So you know, you you decide to use more total, intravenous anaesthetics, and then you've got problems of plastic and you've got problems of phenols, et cetera. So how How what What's your thoughts on that? As a sort of somebody who's interested in the environment?
But obviously has also used a lot of anaesthetics over your over your career. I think. To be honest, I think the veterinary market is peanuts in terms of anaesthesia contribution to the degradation of the environment, the medical, obviously, the medical side is the The markets are so much greater.
When I qualified, I Well, no. Before I qualified one of my jobs when I was doing EMS was to clean out the syringes and re boil them for use. Yes, I also did that job as a as a young teenager in the Mr Beth, the vets across the road from me in in Liverpool.
Yeah. Yes. So I think we ought to start thinking a bit more about whether we really need single use.
Plastic. Yeah, we need to think about all the manufacturers. And maybe, as as consumers need to think about packaging in terms of greenhouses, you know, like Des fluorine has been taken off the market or banned in Scotland, at least because it's such a horrendous greenhouse gas.
Nitrous oxide, I don't think is really used any longer. That was another really big one, because you had to use so much. And then we start looking at the the intravenous drugs.
And as you say, they're not without problems. So if you don't use phenols, what do you use? Well, the other intravenous agents are ketamine and fain.
No, I'll fax loan, although it's been used, is expensive and it's a steroid. So what are we doing by putting steroids into the environment? Yeah, ketamine again.
It's, you know, there's so much now in the press about a about its abuse and B about its, and the investigation into other uses of ketamine so that maybe that's interesting side and also using polypharmacy. So using very small amounts of things like ketamine, alpha twos, opiates, you know, and and taking that polypharmacy so we're using less, and then you get onto the side of the psychology involved and as a profession. Until very recently, we've been really bad at thinking.
Well, what's this like for the our patients? We're taking them away from the the psychological, and they're really generally in a heightened state of awareness, so they may be more difficult to anaesthetize, so you're using more. So maybe we ought to start thinking about making the experience better for our patients.
So re reducing that level of arousal. It's a really good point. I.
I remember seeing a stat about de Lorraine, though 400 it it's equivalent to burning 450 kilogrammes of coal when you use a bottle of Des Lorraine, which I presume either comes in 500 mils or in a litre. But whichever it is, it's a It's a lot of, kilogrammes of coal, isn't it? Yeah, and in that sense, sever fluorine is a lot better than ISO fluorine, so and and sort of low flow anaesthetic rather than high flow in in you know, the bigger dogs, at least well, you can go controversially.
You can use circles on cats. Now, the lightweight valves on circles, you can use them on cats. But I, I do feel on low flow anaesthesia.
You need really good monitoring. Yeah, a good education and training. And I think this was the thing I always remember.
You know, that school and then beyond it was the best. Anaesthetic is the one that you're most familiar with because, you know, at at the end of the day, the most important thing is that you don't kill your patient while it's anaesthetized. Yes, that's never goes down very well.
Never goes down. Well, not with the Anaesthetists or anybody. Does anybody really?
You know, the whole team, the immediate team falls apart, and then you've got to deal with the owner, and yeah, exactly. So it is. It's being really aware of what you're doing before you change things because you're thinking about the environment.
I mean, yes, very important. And I think you're perfectly right. I think I think we we need to be need to employ mechanical or electronic monitoring much controversially much more than we do.
But we need to be able to interpret it, and we need to not lose sight of our clinical skills as well as reading numbers. So it's really, really easy to chase numbers on monitors. Yeah, without looking at the animal.
The yes, it's so important in that time, obviously much better. I remember, in one of my first practises, they used FA barbitone for everything the four dogs didn't wake up for a couple of days, you know, sleep, sleep. But, you know, having that extra help of the nurse who's so good at it of actually watching the patient so that we can get on with the surgery is, is really important as well, isn't it?
Yeah. And that that's a whole different. That's a whole different podcast, really talking about the role of nurses in anaesthesia in veterinary medicine?
Yeah. Yeah, we will have to get you back on for that one, Jackie. It's been really good to speak to you and really interesting.
Especially about the fermenting. So it's always good, because I with the podcast, I always meet these very interesting and very intelligent people who who teach me all the time. So it's I'm not sure if I can count fermenting as part of my royal college.
35 hours. But I suppose looking at it all, we are kind of a fermentation vat ourselves, aren't we? With all of our and fungus and viruses that are going on inside us.
So I've just had a, What was it? Dip. Diphtheria injection.
I think there's a diphtheria injection because I'm off to a conference, next week. So we We are a, a whole sort of mixture of microorganisms that inhabit, this little body of, of each of us, aren't we, I? I think there's I can't quote it in off hand, But there are more cells that don't contain our DNA around and in our bodies.
And there are the cells that do, which is so we we are actually AAA society of different organisms. We aren't. You know, you're not just Anthony Chadwick.
You're Anthony Chadwick with viruses and bacteria. Yes, yeast and fungi. Yeah.
Yeah, Jackie, real good luck with the, with the ferments, and I'm I'm sure, if we put your if you I know you're not quite ready for business yet, but if you want to have your email at the bottom of the podcast. You may start getting that's asking you for marmalade and and things, you know. Thank you very much indeed.
Antony, It's been a real pleasure talking to you today. It's been great to speak to you as well. Jackie.
Take care, and thanks everyone for listening. This has been vet chat, and hopefully we will see you on a podcast or a webinar very soon. Take care and have a great day.
