Good evening. This is Andy Mee from Veterinary Management Consulting, and welcome to the latest practise management webinar, which is sponsored again by MWI Animal Health and Simply Health. A reminder, if you do have questions, we have the Q&A tab at the bottom or you can use the chat function.

Tonight it's my pleasure to introduce again Liz Jones, who is an established coach with hundreds of hours of experience, having run a successful business for over 15 years. She possesses a unique ability to motivate and encourage people, and a genuine and authentic approach inspires people to reach beyond themselves and challenge their own boundaries. She's passionate about helping people to lead fulfilling and rewarding lives and to take control of their own personal development.

As well as coaching people, she also provides consultancy and support to organisations in leadership and management behaviours, organisational culture, corporate values, employee employee engagement and team dynamics. Her clients include universities, public and private sector organisations across a wide range of industries, as well as self-funded individual clients. So Liz, over to you.

Lovely, thank you very much. So hello everyone and, and thank you. Welcome.

And actually that's a real genuine thank you, not just a standard generic throwaway comment. Thank you for having the, the genuine desire for wanting to have these productive conversations. Because I guess you understand this isn't just about the impact that it can have on you, but it's also about the people that we need to speak with.

So, as I was preparing for this session, I must admit I was having a, a bit of an interesting moment with the title and the way we've named this. And I know that we need to attract interest and, and, and, and encourage people to join us for these webinars, but I'm a little bit troubled by the negative connotation, and maybe we should think about titles such as how to have impactful conversations, how to have productive conversations. I don't know.

Maybe you can come up with some suggestions as Part of the comments at the end. But yeah, usual format for for for this particular webinar. I'm gonna run through some of the thinking and the theory behind this, and, and as you say, as we're going through the session, if it starts to prompt some thinking or some questions, please add the comments.

What you may find in a session like this is that you may be Struggling with, you may be dealing with some specific instances some specific scenarios, either in the workplace or or in your or in your practise or in your place of work. So, you know, feel free to share some of those as well, and, and we'll, we'll deal with as many of those as we can at the end of this particular session. It's a really interesting subject area to explore and, and you know what, there's gonna be so many reasons why each one of you have joined us for this session, either live or, or on the playback.

So I actually want to start actually with a question, just a bit of personal reflection, if you like. And this is just one for you to answer yourselves. There's no poll on this particular one.

But I want you to really think about what's made you join this particular session, what's made you join this particular webinar. Because as I say, for each one of you, it's gonna be slightly different. There will be those of you, it's, I don't know, it's part of your CPD, your continuing professional development, you perhaps want to improve your practise as a manager or as a leader, which is, which is great.

Some of you may be familiar with, or some of you may be thinking that there's something that's gonna happen in the future, that's something that's going to crop up either in the place of work or there's going to be change that's gonna happen, either in the structure of the organisation or in the lines of reporting, which may make one of these conversations possibly inevitable. For some of you, it could be that you're actually been delaying the inevitable, been delaying these conversations, perhaps avoiding them, hoping that somewhere along the line that they can go away and perhaps sort themselves out. And for whatever your reasons for joining this particular session, for whatever, whatever you're hoping you're going to learn, perhaps for all of us that we realise that at some point these conversations need to happen.

And what we're hoping that you will achieve from this is how you're going to get the best outcome, and it's not just for yourselves, but it's for the individuals with whom we have these conversations, and indeed for the entire organisation as well. So as we've already said, you know, a real significant part of my work is in the realms of leadership coaching. And I have to say, this is one of the most common issues that I end up dealing with.

And in fairness, at quite a senior level as well. So many times people will come to me and, and they're almost apologetic with, I, I, I'm really sorry, but I'm struggling with this. I have to have a conversation.

I just don't know how I can go about it. A lot of them perhaps have the, the imposter syndrome, this thought that, do you know what, that some people are just better at it than me, and I just wanted to spend a little bit of time exploring this, this notion that. I'm no good at it.

There are plenty of other people out there that are better than it. So let's just debunk some of the myths around that to start off with. First of all, how do we know people are better than than us at it?

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors. If for all we know, these people could be doing it wrong. They could be doing it ineffectively.

We don't know the outcome of those conversations, and you know what? It doesn't make them a stronger person, or a better leader, just because they don't face these conversations with a sense of dread or a, a sense of fear or or worrying about it. Indeed, I can cite a number of occasions, but it's it's actually the contrary.

Only a couple of years ago I was working with a senior leader in an organisation, coaching them, running a series of coaching sessions, and this cropped up as it quite often does. And he couldn't wait to tell me the outcome of the conversation that he had had the week previously. And his words when he described how that person had felt after the conversation, his phrase was, I absolutely emptied them.

And to me, that's not right. What I'm trying to promote as part of a part of this webinar and as part of your understanding of this is these are about honourable conversations, these are about human to human conversations with people. It's not trying to to to get one over on them.

The other thing to consider is it's quite natural to have some fears, it's quite natural to have some, some, aspects of our work that we're better at than others. As I say, for me, this is one of the most common themes that I pick up when I'm working in the realms of leadership coaching. Think about some of the other fears that people have quite naturally.

Some people, for example, are, are afraid of public speaking. They, they don't enjoy public speaking. Do we think any more or less of a person just because they're good at something or not good at something?

I don't think any better of someone just because they can stand on a podium. It doesn't make them a better person. But there are some real practical reasons why some people are more adept at having these challenging conversations than others.

And those practical reasons are, they just maybe be more experienced at it. They may have had training, they may have undergone a, a process similar to this, or they might have undergone a training course. But here's the important bit, they will have practised it.

They will have actually done it. They will have had some successes and reinforced some of those behaviours. So that's part of what this, this session is about, giving you some of that training, giving you some of those, those, those tips, tricks and techniques, so that you can put this into practise and you can practise it for yourself.

You know what, the most important thing, the most important thing that you can think about is your own mindset about this. What is this, if you have a sense of dread over it or a sense of fear or a sense of apprehension over these conversations. Just think about the stories that you're telling yourselves.

What are you saying to yourself? I don't know. I, I did it once.

It didn't go well. Therefore, the rest of these conversations won't go well. Or, perhaps we're telling ourselves some stories about the people that we need to speak to.

Maybe we have a fear that they will get angry or get aggressive in some way. It's about proportion. It's about putting these conversations into perspective.

And recognising, you know what, this is just a process that we need to go through. This is just a series of transactions that we need to have, to differences we're calling these transactions conversations. So it's really about getting it all into proportion a little bit.

So what is it that stops us? What is it that holds us back or makes us feel a little bit reluctant to have the conversations? And I thought it'd be useful to explore some of these reasons and perhaps to help understand some of the things that we'll be talking about as part of this session.

So here are some of the myths that I come across when I'm speaking to people. First of all, I don't like these conversations because I can't predict the outcome or how the conversation will go. Oh, quite rightly, we can't script these.

We can't practise in advance. We can get ourselves prepared. But what we can do is, and what we will show as part of this session, is that we can provide a structure to them, so that we know there's a beginning, a middle, and end, and it forms part of a process.

Another common fear, what if they get upset? What if they get angry in front of me? Part of what we'll show in the seminar is how we can manage those emotions, both for the person that we're having the conversation with and also for ourselves.

There's a couple here. I might get tongue tied. I just don't feel comfortable doing it.

These are just symptoms that are demonstrating a lack of confidence. And by understanding the process and by understanding some of the tips and tricks and techniques, hopefully will help you to develop your confidence. Two other common scenarios that people are fearful of.

The phrase, I don't like conflict situations. And my challenge here is, these aren't necessarily conflict situations. Again, it is about perspective and proportion, proportion of these.

But it's also about understanding that they don't have to be an aggressive scenario, one against the other. And again, I'll show you how to set, set these conversations up. Similarly, this notion of a balance of power, the tipping of that balance, they'll get one over on me.

We'll show you how to have a, a, a nice, even and structured conversation. There's ways in which we can set up these meetings so that the person we're having the conversation with may not have that moment when they lose control of their emotions, or they will lose their temper. So there's no need to have that worry.

To behave is an interesting one. Very often I'll come across this as a bit of a an obstacle or a reason why somebody's reluctant to have those conversations because it's about behaviour. I can't change the way they behave, it's just who they are.

Behavior's interesting. You know, when people have an issue over or a challenge over a person's performance, if it's related to their job description, if it's quantifiable, if it's to do with the quality or the standard of their work, somehow that seems to make it easier in our mind. We have something quite tangible, something quite constructive, we can say, here's your job description, here's our standards of performance, we can demonstrate you're not performing to those standards.

Where some people have a bit of difficulty is when it relates to behaviour. And when people are starting to display what I would term inappropriate behaviours in the workplace. It's not acceptable and it doesn't make it right.

What we'll show you in this session is how to tackle inappropriate behaviours as well as poor performance in the workplace. And then finally, one of the obstacles I very often hear is, it's been like this for ages. What reason can I give for having the conversation now?

And there can be a whole stack of reasons why a particular issue hasn't been dealt with. You may be new to a situation, you may, you may be the new manager of a team or I'm a member of staff that has been. Performing in a particular way for a significant period of time, and it is hard to tackle a situation that's been allowed to, and here's a strong word, fester for a period of time, but we can still do it, and again, we'll show you how.

So these are some of the misconceptions, these are some of the reasons why people aren't having the conversations, and hopefully by the end of this session, we'll have talked you through and shown you how you can structure them and how you can have really effective conversations. But there's still a choice. You know what, what happens if you do nothing?

At best, a sense of mistrust, these conversations need to happen, it's like, you know, the annoying rattle in the car won't go away just cos we turned the radio up. We need to tackle them and we need to have the conversations. Otherwise there will be a sense of mistrust.

One of the worst things that can happen when we don't deal with issues, we don't deal with contentions, we don't deal with performance. The key thing that can happen is this ripple effect that it will have across the workplace. And what we find is, if we're not having a conversation, if we're not dealing with something, there'll be a sense amongst the rest of the team, or amongst the rest of the department, that these individuals have, in inverted commas, got away with it.

So consequently, why should they bother? Why should they put in the effort? Why should they work to a particular standard if There are members of the team that aren't.

So there are no consequences for these individuals, and suddenly they're not becoming, they're not accountable for their actions or for their behaviours. So guess what, this will ripple across the entire team. And none of the team will too, and there's a, there'll be a whole impact across the dynamics of the team.

There's a great model which looks at Dysfunctional team, Lencioni's model of dysfunctional teams describes the five factors that will make up a dysfunctional team, and when we're looking at having tricky conversations, how interesting is this? So, the first thing he talks about, absence of trust. But look at this, fear of conflict, it's one of the key contributing factors to a dysfunctional team is the fear of having those, those conversations.

Lack of commitment. People aren't committing to and they're not taking accountability for their actions, and guess what, there's complete inattention to the results. But if we can flip this, and we can change the way we approach people and have functional teams have that trust, yeah, it might mean that we feel a little bit vulnerable doing it, but if we can create an environment where those conversations can happen without fear of repercussion, we're starting to have that healthy conflict of constructive, maybe challenging, but having those healthy conversations, discussions and debates.

Which drives the commitment, the understanding and the, the collective buy-in by all team members. We start to get this both individual and shared accountability across the team. And that's what drives the results, the the team and the individual outcomes.

So if that hasn't convinced you so far, how about we look at a few inspirational quotes for you. So is ignore an option? Will it go away if I don't have those conversations?

So, Tony Robbins wouldn't be an inspirational, a set of inspirational quotes if we didn't include Tony Robbins in there somewhere. He was a famous one for saying, if we change, nothing, nothing changes. If you do nothing about a situation, guess what?

It's not going to go away. It's always going to be like that, they will always behave in a particular way. A particular favourite of mine, those of you who heard previous sessions that I've run, I'm a great fan of Brene Brown.

One of her quotes is, Easy conversations, tough life. Tough conversations, easy life. So what does she mean by that?

So we just carry on going, yeah, everything's fine, you're doing great. It's not everything's going OK. You're setting yourself up further down the line for further problems, either with that individual or with that ripple effect that I described earlier.

But if we embrace it, if we have those conversations, again, I'm troubled a little bit by the, the, the negative construct of the word tough, but if we have those tough conversations early on, that makes for an easier life further down the line. Here's one of my favourite quotes, you get what you tolerate. If we're allowing these behaviours to happen again, they're not going to go away.

What you allow. Is what will contin is what will continue, so we need to have these conversations. OK, so hopefully, hopefully I've now painted the scene where we know we need to do this and we know it needs to happen.

We're not alone feeling uncomfortable with it, other people can feel that way too, but where do we start? And I'm a firm believer in as far as possible, let's stop them from happening in the first place, because in my experience and the work I do both in leadership coaching. And in leadership and management behaviours and, and organisational culture, one of the biggest causes is this gap between the understanding of performance and expectations.

People are performing at the level they feel is appropriate, but it's not meeting the expectations of somewhere along the line that's not being communicated effectively. So some of this is about what we can do across an organisation to perhaps avoid the conversations happening in the first place. And here is the first place that I would suggest any organisation, any business, no matter how large, how small, whether it's a small practise, whether it's a global organisation.

Think about your organisational values. Think about the things that make you. A human organisation.

Think of the things that how you want to be, what you want to be known for. A lot of organisations do this. They use words like, respect or or care, we behave with integrity, we are trustworthy, we are honest.

If the organisation seems quite large or you can't perhaps associate so much with what the organisational values are, do it as a department, do it as a team, have very, very clear values. And one of the important things about values is from values we start to see the behaviours. The behaviours are the visible part and it's how we live out our values as a as an organisation.

So we need to be very clear about what our values are and what our, our, the behaviours are that we are expecting people, to behave in the workplace. And the import that's so much importance on this, because if we can behave in a way that's appropriate, in a way that is human, that's authentic and genuine with one another. Then that will play out, not only amongst ourselves, but to our customers, to our clients, to our patients, to the people that we're caring for, it, it permeates across.

So it's important we get our values right and consequently, the behaviours that we expect, not just the performance of the job itself. But here we are now looking at the actual, the standards of performance in terms of the job, in terms of the role people roles that people fulfil. The standards of quality and making sure that everybody is absolutely clear of what is expected to them and make sure that is communicated to everybody.

Once we've got those in place, then we need to create an environment where these courageous conversations can happen. And that's in all directions. So that's not just about a manager speaking to a member of the team or a team leader or a supervisor speaking to a member of staff.

This is in all directions. We need to create environments in our workplace where these conversations are OK, and it's OK to feel a little bit vulnerable about them, but herein lies the beauty of the, the, the, the learning of them. So whilst the traditional view would be, a manager would speak to a member of the team and have those conversations, equally, it should be OK for the member of team to be able to approach a manager and disclose or say how they feel, or to have those conversations.

These conversations need to go in all directions. To do this, it's possible that across a business, across an organisation, we need to support our leaders, we need to support our managers, make sure that they are trained and they they know how to have these conversations effectively. But across an organisation we've, we need to develop a culture of both individual and collective emotional intelligence.

So what do I mean by that? So as individuals, we all have our default positions, we all have our preferred ways of behaving, we are self aware, we, we, we know what those are. But we start need to start to recognise when those behaviours are appropriate in the context in which we find ourselves.

Not only for ourselves, but also for the people around us. And we need to create an environment where it is OK and it's acceptable, and indeed it is it is expected that we can call out. Both positive and negative examples of those behaviours.

So, for example, you spot somebody doing something really great for a client, for a patient, say, hey, I really like what you did yesterday. That was fantastic. The way you dealt with that situation and the behaviours displayed, that was fantastic, and loved seeing that.

That's a great way of calling out positive behaviours and reinforcing it. But equally, we need to be calling out the inappropriate behaviours. I need to talk to you about that meeting.

I wasn't too sure about the way you raised your voice when you were trying to get your point across. I felt uncomfortable calling out those behaviours when we said it. So that's if we've got the luxury of time.

That's an organisational perspective and, you know, whether you've got that luxury of time or not, I'd encourage you all at some point to consider what you can do to influence that. But now what I want to think about is more about the specifics, how to actually have those conversations and how we can make these conversations work. How we can make sure that we are communicating effectively, and how we can make sure that we can understand and be understood ourselves.

So the first thing I want to look at is I want to talk about a little bit about behaviour and the impact of behaviours. And so often when we talk about behaviours, we use this iceberg model to illustrate what's going on with behaviour. And we use the iceberg because what we see at the tip of the iceberg, that is the observable behaviours, that's, that's what we see, that's what we observe in other people.

But actually it's underneath the surface, what we describe as the unseen aspects, the drivers of the performance. That's what's driving the visible aspects of behaviours. So when I'm thinking about myself, for example, when I'm thinking about me.

Here's what I experienced. This is what I'm immersed in myself. These are the things that are driving my behaviours as an individual.

They could be my personal values. They could be my beliefs as an individual. It could be the circumstances leading up to a particular situation.

It could be my own personal psychology. All of these things are what I am personally immersed in. It's what others observe is purely the tip of the iceberg.

They don't know what's going on underneath, and you know what, because I'm so immersed in what's going on down here. I'm not particularly thinking consciously about what is going on above the surface. And the converse side of that, the other side of it is when we're observing other people, OK, this is what I observe in other people.

I'm seeing the tip of the iceberg. And what I'm potentially losing sight of is what they are experiencing, what's beneath their surface, what's going on down here for them. So actually when you think about it, it's it's nothing short of a miracle that we can actually understand what's going on because I'm immersed in what's going on down here.

And observing other people through my philtres, through my own personal experiences, and similarly, my behaviours are being observed by other people who are carrying their own baggage down here. It's almost a miracle that we can understand one another, but in our conversations, we need to be mindful of this. We need to be aware of this potential mismatch in understanding, and we need to find a way of opening up our understanding, opening up our awareness to help.

As to understand what's going on in a particular conversation, and this is where Eric Burn's work on transactional analysis and game theory is particularly helpful. So Eric Byrne picked up on Freud's work on the ed ego and super ego and started to look at the way in which humans interact with one another, particularly when they're in the ego state. I'm not gonna go into this in great detail.

Can I just reference out this book, which is a fascinating book about how people play out and, and, and how people. We're all different, but we're all predictably so, and it helps to have a little bit of understanding about what's going on. So, Burn's model looks like this.

So he describes, when we are functioning, when we are operating, when we are having communication. And conversations. We're operating in one of 3 ego states at any one time.

And the 3 states he described are the parent state, the child state, and the adult state. Let me run through those briefly. So because it's based on on Freud's work, what he describes is when we are operating in parent state, we are we are displaying a set of behaviours that actually are the behaviours that we observed, that we were, that we were surrounded with as a child in our formative years when we were parented either by our parents or our carers or in some cases our educators.

And what were the behaviours that we observed and we experienced as a child? Because those behaviours became our learned behaviours, they came imprinted in our subconscious mind, and they are the behaviours that we play out now in our mature lives in our adult lives. And he describes as being either the nurturing parent, how we were supported as a child, or the critical parent if he wants to go down to that level of detail.

So the parent state is, is, is the first ego state he describes. Then he talked about the child state. And, and I'm, I'm gonna be cautious here.

This is not about being childish or immature, but this is how we behaved when we were able to be, to act as the child, we're able to be free and free-spirited, or the converse, when we look at adaptive child, is when we were trying to get our own way. And maybe as I'm starting to describe this, you can perhaps start to think about some people that you may know. And you think, actually, you know what, I can almost imagine the way they were able to manipulate situations or they were able, the way they were able to get their own way.

You could almost see the child playing out in the adult, and that is part of Eric Burns's model. So there's the parent state and the child state, and he also describes the adult state, which is what he describes as being the learned concept. And what Eric Burns states is that of these three behaviours, they are either reactionary and instinctive.

In other words, we are behaving either as a parent or as a child. Purely down to our subconscious without even thinking, we're reacting to a situation and we're just behaving in a way without, Prior thought. Alternatively, we could adopt a consciously chosen state, the adult state, so rather than reacting to a situation, we've somehow interrupted that thought to emotion process and we're choosing to adopt an adult state.

Now it doesn't state necessarily that one behaviour is better than others. Where it becomes interesting is when there are different states interacting with one another. And he describes those interactions as being productive and stable when both parties are either willingly in complementary states, which I'll demonstrate in a second, or if they are in adult, adult states.

We've got both parties in a conversation, in a social transaction, both in this considered responding adult state. Let's put a bit more detail around that. Typically the model is described like this when we're starting to demonstrate it.

So what this demonstrates here is, here is the agent who would typically be yourself, respondent, typically would be a member of your team. What we traditionally see in a manager subordinate relationship, very often we'll see a parent child relationship. Playing out.

Now this is described as a complimentary state. Both parties are happy in that state. It's generally tends to work.

Arguably there isn't any, any, significant challenge with that, but what we would say is that is a reactionary state. It is not a considered state. So we're thinking, OK, we need to be an adult state, so what if we are in adult state.

But we haven't perhaps taken any steps to help the respondent, to help the person we're having the conversation with. Maybe we haven't done anything to help them to get into adult state. Maybe they're responding in their typical default format, which is perhaps their child state.

This we would describe as not being complementary, they're not aligned. What we're trying to get to is to a position where, You are responding, you have put previous thought, preparation into it, you're an adult state, so is the person with whom we're having that conversation. So, so much about these conversations that we're having are about how we can help that other party to be in a state, to be in a position where they are responding with thought and with care, rather than reacting to a situation.

So what is our role here and what can we do to initiate that, to influence that and to help them to be in that state? There was a book written, gosh, back in the 1960s, I think, by an author, one of the first personal development self-help books that came out, and the author was Thomas Harris. It's one of those books, sometimes you only need the book title, the book was called I'm OK, you're OK.

And it's actually a really good checklist that you could think about before you're initiating one of these conversations. Do a bit of a sense check on yourself. And in many ways, this is, this will help you to consider, are we approaching this conversation?

Are we doing everything we can to get into adult adult state? So with the model works like this. If you do a quick sense check before you initiate the conversation and think to yourself, OK, I'm OK.

I'm feeling OK about this. I've prepared for it, done my homework. I've got my mindset right.

I'm feeling OK. And you know what? Not only am I OK, but my view of this other person that I need, I'm having a conversation with is they're OK.

There might be an issue, there might be a challenge, there might be something we need to talk about. But I've got. A a a positive view of the individual.

I believe it is something we can work through. I'm OK, you're OK, that's the best position, that's the strongest position to be starting that conversation with. If when you do that sense check, you think, yeah, I'm OK on this, but I can't wait to, I can't wait to have this because I, I need to sort them out.

That's when you need to start checking in on yourself and thinking, this is not a good starting point for the conversation. If my view of that person is, you're not OK, you're wrong in some way, shape, or form, I need to sort you out. This will come across in the the language you use, in the the the speed, the temper which you're speaking, your body language.

This will come across in the conversation, and guess what? They'll be on the defensive. And that's not what we want in these conversations.

So just watch what your mindset is about the individual before you initiate the conversation. Clearly, if for whatever reason you're feeling that you are not OK, that's the opportunity to step back. You need to do some more preparation for yourself in terms of your, your thinking, your mindset, and some of your approach.

What we're aiming for here is the I'm OK, you're OK position, and as far as possible to initiate this adult adult state of thinking and state of mind. So this is all still pre-conversation. This is before the conversation has even happened.

And this next stage as well is how we can set up that conversation. I'm calling this quite carefully, making space for the conversation. What do I mean by that?

Some of it's about space in terms of time, the time that you're making. So honour the time in your own schedule. Once you've made arrangements for that meeting, once you've agreed a time, please don't rearrange it, please don't postpone it.

Please make sure that you stick to it and honour the commitment that you've made. And allow reasonable time for it, for the meeting, for any reflections and actually for any preparation work that needs to happen beforehand. This might sound obvious.

I cannot tell you the amount of times I come across this as being one of the, as being an issue after a meeting. I was made aware recently of a a a a a senior manager who had to speak to somebody about a very serious disciplinary issue. They allowed half an hour in the diary, turned up 10 minutes late, and promptly told the person that they found it more important to queue for a coffee for 10 minutes rather than turn up on time.

Please don't do that. It shows absolutely no respect or honour for the individual. So allow reasonable time for the meeting and for reflections on it.

And give the individual an appropriate amount of notice. Now, you'll be the best judge of this. I would advocate somewhere between 1 week and 2 weeks.

2 weeks for me would possibly be a little bit too long. I, I think it's unreasonable to have people worrying unduly about a situation, or for them to start feeling concerned or threatened in any way, shape or form. I think a week is about right, but again, much depends on the context.

24 hours is clearly not enough notice for somebody. So when we're talking about space, we're just talking about the physical place, the physical space where that meeting needs to happen. I'm, I'm, I'm hoping I don't need to, you know, dwell, dwell too long on issues such as privacy, privacy, confidentiality.

I think about things like distractions, . Whether it's likely that either you or the person themselves will be disturbed, also think about how visible it is. Will it be really noticeable that member of staff is away from their desk?

Are you doing it in a glass office where everyone can see what's going on? Just put a little bit of thought into the place where that meeting is going to take place. This final aspect of space goes back into mindset.

And it's when we're talking about creating a really positive space. I talk about this an awful lot with coaching, creating a really positive space for that conversation, so that the person within that conversation feels valued, feels honoured, respected, validated. And that's down to you to create that and to make that as a really positive space for that individual.

Do you want this conversation to go well and to go really effectively, it's down to you. To make that a positive space for the individual. Here's some things you can do.

Be welcoming. Whatever has driven this conversation, be welcoming and set the pace of the conversation from early on. We talk very often about pace and lead.

Getting the pace right and matching that pace before you actually take the lead in the conversation helps the individual to kind of orientate themselves. They get settled into the physical space, they get settled into. How it sounds, how they, how they feel in that conversation, what's going on in the conversation, so, so pace it a little bit before you then leave and say, OK, this is what we're going to talk about today.

Observe. I mentioned this a couple of times when we talk about these conversations, and in this context, it's about observe the physiology of the individual, observe the emotions of the individual, observes what's going. Don't make any judgments about it.

Just be mindful of it. Don't second guess, this is about their individual behaviours. And actually help them to settle, help them to feel at ease as part of that conversation.

Use all the rapport building techniques that that that you'll be familiar with. Now the obvious one is the body language and rapport. But when we're having these powerful conversations, one of the most important rapport models that people often tend to forget is about emotional rapport.

We are by nature, you know, man is we're a social creature, number one, that that's kind of one of the things that drives us. We are also one of the things that separates us from pretty much every other creature on the planet is we have this incredible aspect of our brain, which is our subconscious mind. Our subconscious mind enables us to, to, to, to run programmes in the background, so that we can focus our attention onto new situations, different situations, situations where we need to be creative and engaged with our prefrontal cortex.

So we're running so many things in, in the background in this subconscious mind, but the subconscious mind's not stupid. It knows that every now and again it needs to, to test and to check itself, to make sure that everything's right. So what it will do is it will, it will fire out little sort of validation checks, if you like, to make sure that it's either in the right place, that it's doing things right.

So, going back to this social model, that man is by nature a a, a, a social creature, it will, the subconscious mind will be firing out little tests to make sure that it is in the right, social environment, that it's in the right tribe, if you like, that everything feels OK. It's looking for signs of. That's why we, we feel OK when we've got the same body language as somebody.

But in terms of the emotional rapport, it will also be firing out. Does this person understand my emotions right now? Am I, does this person understand how I am feeling right now?

Because if they don't, I'm gonna display those feelings more strongly and, with, with greater volume, just to make sure that I, they, they can say out how, how, how agitated I am. So they're gonna, they want to make sure that you get their emotion. And the best way that you can do that is to, even if it's just for a split second, is to very briefly match their emotion.

So in other words, if somebody greets you, they're very happy, of course we'll smile back at them, that's the natural thing to do. If somebody greets you in an agitated manner, hold that, acknowledge it, recognise it, even if it's just for a split second. Oh, I can see you're really angry, and I can see this is making you feel quite agitated.

Once you've acknowledged it, then try and bring it down again. But if you completely ignore it and pretend it's not there, the subconscious mind will go into overdrive and try and amplify those emotions, just to make sure you get it. Really important that you watch that emotional rapport.

There's a good reason behind that as well. We are, for want of a better description, a bag of chemicals. And what we see is that these chemicals that the physiological results of the release of these chemicals are our emotions.

And as with all chemicals that they get released, they typically flow follow a kind of a, a, a, a standard distribution curve, once these chemicals, these, have been released in our system, and we start to display these emotions. So we can imagine this distribution curve over a period of time. And these chemicals are firing out and we're starting to display these emotions, and the intensity increases over time.

So let's imagine that there's been a stimulus that's that's that's prompted some form of emotional response. And what will happen is that we will see the stimulus and the emotional response will increase, increase, increase, increase over time until it reaches a peak. And then it'll start to dissipate and wear away.

Now for each one of us, we have a flashpoint. Each one of us as an individual will have a point, and up to that point, up to that moment in time, there's a possibility that we can rein our emotions in, that we can bring our emotions back in line or back in check. And for each one of us, those points are different.

One person, it may take longer to reach that point. For other people, it, that point may come along a lot quicker. Wherever that level is, for each one of us as individuals and for other people, there is a point up to which we can help the person to bring their emotions under control.

But after that point, it's not gonna happen. After that point, it's kind of like, it's, it's the point of no return. And at that point, they're not thinking clearly.

They're at the extremes of emotion. They're reacting, they're not responding. They're possibly behaving in a manner that they may later regret.

And if you have a conversation after that point, it's unlikely to have a productive outcome. This isn't always going to happen, it doesn't happen very often, but if it does, the best advice I can offer is to acknowledge that that moment has happened. It could be that they're angry, it could be that they are upset, acknowledge that that moment is there.

The first trick is for yourself. The first tip is for yourself, remain calm as far as you can, remain calm, do whatever the calming techniques you can do to help yourself to feel in control of the situation. Then provide them with the opportunity to compose themselves.

I can see you're getting upset about this. Do you want to just take 5 minutes? What do you want to get yourself a drink of water?

Do you want to just give yourself a little moment just to help yourself to feel more centred and more grounded again? If that doesn't work, remember, anything above this line is not gonna be productive. If they are not in a position to compose themselves.

Adjourn the meeting. And I'm using the word adjourn the, not cancel the meeting. Obviously reschedule it and say, I can see you're upset.

I think at this point in time, I think we need to adjourn until tomorrow, until later today. It'll give you the opportunity to reflect, you know, get yourself more settled, and we will meet again in due course. Doesn't happen very often, but that's, a, a good way of dealing with it, should you be presented with emotions, .

That have reached a stage where we can't bring them back. OK. So, we're now at that point in the conversation.

Do what we can to help that person, or to help both of us to be in the adult to adult state. We've done what we can to help put them at ease. Now, I said to you, I would, I would talk you through a process.

What is, a process that we can follow during the course of that conversation? I remember, if we can follow a process, it helps to perhaps to remove some of the emotions that we're feeling about it. So the model that we use here is, for those of you who are familiar with coaching models, and coaching techniques, it's taken from the grow model of coaching the GROW goal, reality, options and will.

The difference here is, whereas with grow, we help a client or we help the person on the conversation with to, to talk about their goal and what it is that they want to do. The difference with the Tro model is you as the manager, you as the initiator of the conversation, you can bring that theme to the table. You are the one that can say to the individual, I need to have a conversation, or I'd like to have a conversation with you about that provides the theme to the conversation.

Now, if we're dealing with performance management in this specific context, when we're having the, when we're talking about the theme, when we're, when we're starting to elicit that, This is when we start to talk about the broader context, so it could be, I need to have a conversation with you about your punctuality. I need to have a conversation with you about your behaviour in the workplace. I need to have a conversation with you about.

That's the broad context. But then we need to get it to a point where it's specific and it's something that we can work with as part of the conversation. So then we start to bring in, this is what I have observed, this is the evidence, this is what I have seen, or it's come to my attention.

So we're starting to demonstrate what's been happening or what we've been made aware of with that particular individual. Then we map it against what the expectations are. Remember this could be expectations of behaviour, what's appropriate in the workplace, this could be expectations in terms of the standards of their performance or the quality of their performance.

And it's kind of a mathematical equation. Here are our expectations, here's where your performance is. There is a shortfall.

There is a, there is a gap in terms of what, what's not happening or or or or or the level that we expect. It is useful at this stage to get agreement from the individual. Very often you will get agreement from them, very often they will acknowledge that, yes, there is a shortfall between the levels at which I'm performing and what's expected of me.

But you know what, even if you don't get that level of of agreement, you can still continue with the conversation. Because once we have ascertained what the context, the evidence, and what the shortfall is, we can then look at what's the goal here? What are we expecting?

What are we wanting to happen? So, the goal now is, what are our expectations in terms of their improvement? Now, it may be that there is such a gap, there is such a shortfall.

This just isn't going to be possible in one go or in one hit. This could take a series of conversations. So this could be Just for this conversation, the goal is X, or it could be the, the whole thing, but certainly what the the goal is, what your expectations are of their improvement.

Are in the grow model and in the T grow model is the reality of the situation. So what's been happening, and this is their opportunity to say, This is what's going on. Come on, talk to me.

What's happening? For what reason is this happening? Tell me about the situation.

And this is their chance to start to really give, you know, an understanding of what the backstory is, it's your opportunity to to do a bit of a fact find. Remember the iceberg. We're seeing behaviours, we don't know what's been driving them.

So this is the opportunity for them to really start to disclose some of the reasons. It could be training, it could be an understanding, it could be a whole stack of things. But it's important that they have the opportunity to share that.

The options part of either the grow model or the TG grow model is when we give the individual the opportunity to come up with their own ideas and their own suggestions about what they can do to realise their goal. When we talk about it in coaching, we say this is where you do not offer advice, you do not have any input, it's all down to them, and the model still stands here, really, really encourage the individual to come up with their suggestions and their ideas for how they can improve that particular situation. Because for as much as they can come up with their own ideas and for as much as they are coming with the suggestions, they are more likely to implement ideas that they've thought of rather than you telling them you need to do this, that and the other.

And once they've explored some ideas, then we come to, OK, of all of those suggestions, of all of those ideas, what will they commit to? When will they do it by, and then we can do some nice, nice and neat smart action planning at the end. So I've used this technique for a long time, I've taught this technique for a long time, and I've used it, and I've, I've, I've helped clients to work with it.

I love it because the individual, the person we're having the conversation with, they become part of the solution. They are far more likely to commit to a course of action if they've come up with the ideas themselves. But also this whole process gives them the opportunity to be heard.

And they'll take more ownership of the issue, and they're more likely to, to, to to, to, to, to deliver on the implementation plan, it's inclusive. Now I've also worked alongside a number of HR departments, organisational development, personnel departments. They love this process for the same reasons, but also because, you know, ultimately, this could end up in some form of disciplinary process.

This could end up in somebody going through the warning process, first written, second written, whatever that looks like. This is a great precursor to that. This is a really good and a supportive opportunity.

You know, ultimately we have responsibility for our employees and our and team members, and this is a really supportive way of doing that. So the Tro model is a great way of framing that conversa of those of those conversations, particularly effective in performance management, but also useful for dealing with any tricky conversations. Do you know what, either in or out of the work environment.

And it works. However, just in case there's any thoughts going through your mind of, oh, I know what they're gonna say. I know what's gonna happen.

They're gonna behave like this, they're gonna behave like this. I just thought, let's just throw out some of the ideas or some of the things that people may say, or some of the obstacles we may be likely to encounter. What if somebody says, I've always worked like this, it's never been a problem before.

So as part of your preparation, try and think of reasons as to why you're addressing this now. You may be the new manager, it may be that you've only become aware of the situation, it may be there are cutbacks, but have your reason ready in advance, particularly if it's been going on for a particular period of time. Please don't get drawn into the who told you conversation.

It doesn't have to divulge if somebody's told you a particular scenario and tell the individual that. Divulging it will just then go and just distract from the conversation and take it away from the real matter in hand. The matter in hand is about the performance, it's not about who's made them aware of it.

Why didn't anyone say anything before? Bring the conversation back to the here and now. This is about now.

This is about where we are now and how we move forward from this, from this point forward. It's not about what's happened over the past 3 years, 3 months, 3 weeks, whatever that looks like. The particularly ste ones, it's just the way I am, you can't change me.

Switch the conversation around to appropriateness of behaviour. No, I'm not after asking about changing you, but think about the impact of your behaviour perhaps on other people, that sometimes helps. Yeah we can come across some quite obstinate ones.

What are you going to do about it? Try and put the ownership back on you as if you're part of the problem. Offer support if it's required, but this is about their performance and it's down to them.

I've come across this one quite often, prove it or you can't prove it. Please make sure that you always have specific evidence, specific instances, what you've observed and what you've seen in advance of the conversation. No one else has an issue with it, it's just you again I try trying to put the the emphasis back on you as if you're part of the problem, but you know what?

You're the one speaking to them about it, own the conversations, we will say it's one of the greatest tips about owning that conversation. You may come across and you may encounter. Characters who are a little bit more difficult to have the conversation with.

These are default behaviours which have perhaps served them well up until now, and possibly until now, they've never been challenged or never been spoken to. Don't be put off by it, just be consistent, as we will see. Here are some top tips that I would like to, to share with you in terms of these conversations.

Number one, own the conversation and don't apologise with it. So in other words, don't enter the conversation with, I've been asked to talk to you about X, Y and Z. I need to talk to you about it, be confident about it.

Having that confidence will really help to help you to . Take a lead in the conversation. I would suggest, even if you have multiple issues with an individual, deal with one issue at a time.

Don't cloud that conversation with lots and lots of different things. The reality is you will potentially have to have a series of conversations with individuals. Try not to cloud one conversation with lots of particular issues.

I've mentioned this before, but in the context here, observe the individual, don't judge them. State what you're observing, not what your interpretation of it is. I've noticed that you're late in the mornings.

Is an observation, you're lazy and you don't get up in time, is a judgement. That'd be an extreme, but just watch the language that we're using about individuals. Remember we're trying to help them open up, not to put them on the defensive.

And another way of trying to avoid people to go on the defensive is the use of non-direct language. So for example, I feel, I feel frustrated when you are late. Or, for example, when you raise your voice, it makes me feel agitated rather than you're always aggressive in meetings or you're always late.

It's, it's a nice way of still acknowledging the behaviour without having it thrust them and putting them into that defensive position. Please remember, these conversations will take a few attempts sometimes, but remain consistent, have the follow-up meetings, and, and stick with it, stick, stick to the ground. In terms of follow-up meetings, generally, I'd recommend that you have those no sooner than a week, no longer than a month, but keep the flow of those conversations going.

And finally, these are just some broader tips that I would, you have some specifics in the last one. This is more about the art of courageous conversations. Appreciate that each conversation has a wider purpose.

It's linked into a something that's more important than just that one-off transaction, that social transaction, and there's value to it, that there is a genuine value in having that conversation, both at an individual and a collective level. And as such From the outset, have a shared and a committed belief that the output is gonna be greater than the input. Sure it might be a little, make you feel a bit vulnerable, or it might be a bit challenging going in, but it's worth it in the end.

This is often talked about in client relationships. We talk about having a client centred relationship has where we have an unconditional positive regard for the person with whom you're in conversation, the I'm OK, you're OK position. Keep that, it'll come across in the in your language in the way in which you're communicating with them, because we want these conversations to be authentic.

And to be for you to be human and to allow others to be so too, let's create an environment where that really works. So my final question for yourselves is, what's gonna make this happen? And sometimes it's about.

What's holding you? What's been stopping you, possibly holding you back from having these conversations? Let's think about the person themselves.

I think about what's been allowing them to carry on with what they're doing. So what do you need to start doing? And I'm hoping that by part of this, whether it's mindset, whether it's techniques, whether it's some of the broader pictures, hopefully there's been something there, some little nuggets, that you've been able to, to walk away with as, as part of this webinar.

I'm just putting up my contact details while we prepare for, I'm hoping there might be some questions that have come through or if anybody's got any comments or any specifics. If we don't get a chance to answer them all, I've got my contact details on there as well as our sponsors for the for this particular webinar. And by animal health and simply health professionals.

But can I hand over and see if we've got any comments or any questions? Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much for that, Liz.

As yet, no questions have come through. So I just encourage everybody, if you, if there is anything you want to ask Liz, please either use the Q&A box or the chat box. I'll kick you off with something though, an easy one for you or not as the case may be.

Any top tips for having a conversation with somebody about body odour? Oh goodness. I wish I could say I've never come across that one before, but I've got personal experience of it, as well as advising the others on how to deal with it.

Remember, this is about honouring the person in the conversation. This is also about not being judgmental and this is where this really kicks in here. So it's about all the setting up the conversation.

I need to have a conversation with you about. So, personal hygiene, I need to have a conversation with you about a personal matter. I need to have a conversation with you about something that is quite sensitive.

And then lead into the, I'm aware that, that's, you know, when, when, when I'm near you, I'm aware that there's, there's, a particular odour. And I was just wondering if you're aware of it. It's about being open, about being authentic and being gen.

And this is where the ownership of the conversation comes in. Can you imagine if in that conversation you'd said, other people have told me that you smell? That's gonna make them feel so bad, because suddenly other people have been brought into this, and, and how will they feel about it.

So it's, it's creating that space. It's treating them as a human. It's not being judgmental, but at the same time, it's tackling it.

And again, the beauty of the, the, using the, the Tro model as, as a technique is, it, it gives them the opportunity to explore, here's what's going on, here's what's happening, and here are some things that I can do. To, to rectify the situation. It's a tough one.

It's, and it does happen, unfortunately. That's tackled direct. Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you for that. You talked about the, the Eric Byrne work, the reactionary and the instinctive responses of the parent and child. What struck me about that was the links with Steve Peter's work on the chimp paradox.

Do you use that as a model at all? Yes, yes, yes, I like the chimp paradox. Yeah, yeah, so, .

You know, with these, it's it's, it's about having the considered conversation rather than the than the than the reactionary one. And if we can interrupt our default programmed patterns of behaviour and just respond with thought, respond, and, and, and, not fall back on the sort of the instinctive knee jerk reactions, that's when we'll have a far more measured approach to it. So there are definite parallels between the two.

And if, if people haven't read the chimp paradox, I would really recommend that's another good read. Yeah, excellent. He also does, quite a few presentations around the country, so it's, it's worth checking out.

Also, I, I use the Leone model quite a bit. And one of the things he talks about, particularly in terms of building trust within teams is using personality profiling. He particularly prefers MBTI, but obviously the disc there are others out there.

Do you use those as well, or, or? I do, yeah, so, I'm a great fan of both the ones that you mentioned, both MBTI and DC. My preference I more towards disc, and I use disc profiling a lot, both for individuals and looking at the group dynamics within a team.

The main reason I like this is it's a lot simpler to explain to people. And if I can explain it really, really quickly and they can understand it really quickly, they can then apply it themselves and make start making second guesses about other people and start applying a bit of an emotional intelligence model. MBTI is.

Potentially more detailed than the DC model, but I struggle to remember my own four letters, let alone try to remember what other people's are. So, whilst it might give me a very detailed response about myself, it's, it's sometimes a little bit more difficult to apply it to other people if you're not practising it and use it an awful lot. So, but definitely, profile is really useful in these situations.

OK. Yeah. I mean, I'm a fan of MBTA.

I do use it a lot, so, but I, I appreciate what you're saying about desk is, it is. I would, yeah, I certainly wouldn't recruit desk. I would, but I would use MBTI as a recruitment tool potentially because of the level of detail that it provides on it.

OK. Right. Still no questions coming through from the audience.

You must have, covered everything they wanted to hear. So again, just to thank the sponsors MWI Animal Health and Simply Health professionals, and again, thank you very much, Liz for another excellent presentation. And, look forward to, speaking to everybody on the next, practise management webinar, next month.

Take care, everyone. Good night. Thank you and good night.