Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today I am made up to be joined by another graduate from, without any shadow of a doubt, the best university in the world. Some of you may, and some, some issues with that statement, but we have it written on paper that that way back when, when we were all there, Liverpool was definitely the best vet school in the world. So, so yeah, so I've, I've made a statement on a podcast and therefore it is official truth.

So Rosie Alistair graduated a couple of years before. For me, even though she still looks a lot younger than me, in 2005. She is the current Vet Life helpline manager, which I'm sure those of you who've been watching all of the things that have been going on in the profession over the last few years, and especially over the last six months, has been, inundated with, with people to support.

And also, for me really encouragingly inundated with offers of people who are looking to help as well. And I think that is, is a real encouragement and testament to the people that we have in the profession. Now, as if Rosie's career hadn't been busy enough, she decided to take on a PhD several years back, with the easy to say title of the Veterinary Transition study investigating the transition from veterinary students to practising veterinary surgeon, and it was a prospective cohort study.

And I made up that I got that out correct and all in one, in fact, we both had to check the time. Of it before recording this. But at a time of year like this when so many people are going from being a student to being a practising vet and of course this year is different to any year in, in, in living memory for all of us in the profession.

I think that's incredibly pertinent because of course, There's not only the traditional stresses and strains that we would associate with, with being, you know, a new grad in whatever line that you choose to go down, but there's everything else that COVID has thrown into it. And Rosie, I just wanted to start by by picking your brains and saying, look, you know, what. What is, what stands out between that jump between being a vet student and and becoming a practising veterinary surgeon, because of course we get handed our certificate one day, and it's not like medicine and dentistry where you have your F1, F2, or your VT years, it's like, right, OK, there's your stethoscope, here's a knife, crack on.

So you know, what, what's, what's the challenge that we face as a profession with that sort of phase? It's one of the big challenges that affects us as a profession, so not just the individuals going through it, but those of us who might be supporting people going through it or who might be creating positions for new graduates is. The level of responsibility experience mismatch, as I called it in my study, that, new graduates face.

And one of the interesting things about the responsibility experience mismatch that new graduates face is it is a really, really big range. So we are not giving all new graduates the same level of challenge. The interesting thing is, of course, lots of us had experiences when we graduated, when we had a big mismatch between responsibilities we were given and the level of experience we Had, and yet, lots of us were thrown in the deep end, and yes, eventually, you know, we did get swimming and it was hard.

One of the things that this study really showed is that that process, going through it, doesn't help people's mental health at all. And so one of the things that if you want to help people's mental health, is you don't need to make that as difficult for people. So supporting people through that transition.

And where people were supported through that transition in a more gradual way, in a way that involved more communication. Between what the person needed, so rather than having a very set idea about what support someone needed negotiating that with them and understanding that with them, that went much better for people. And obviously like, I mean, you know, you, you've been a new grad, I've been a new grad, I dare say, after the first month and a half after I'd written off two of the practise cars, my my bosses were regretting.

They can be on a new graduate back in the day. But, you know, I dare say even in that, you know, decade, decade and a half since we graduated, the, the expectations have changed massively, and you know, you touch on that responsibility experience, mismatch, but like for me. I wasn't, I wasn't really, I don't well I don't feel as though I was expected to hit the ground running, you know, I, I was really lucky I suppose in that I had a practise where it was like, right, OK, we're gonna hold your hands, you're gonna go do this, this, this and the other, and then, you know, when you're ready, then you can fly solo.

And I, I have a lot to be grateful for for that, but what, what sort of, what challenges do you find that new graduates face that maybe we as more experienced clinicians have, I dare say forgotten that we faced, or, or maybe don't realise that they face? Sure, yeah. So I suppose one of the things here is around the issue of what gets called in business on boarding, and also something called acculturation, which is, getting used to the, the way that the culture of our profession works, and the things that you, you pick up by being with vets and you pick up by role modelling, and you pick up by doing the job sometimes.

And those things, I think we can say, you know, we can teach those at vet school, and we try to teach those at vet school, but I think some of them actually, you, people. Do learn much more from being out with vets, from seeing practise, from seeing how things work. And obviously, that's something I think we need to be thinking about really carefully this year, for people who may not have had all the EMS experiences they were hoping for, who may not have had all the rotations experiences they were hoping for, that we really look after people during that period, and we think about how, we onboard them, as it were.

So, one of the interesting things from other industries is that onboarding is not always associated with the levels of stress. And difficulty that we see in our profession. So this isn't an inevitability.

This is something that we are doing, and we have a choice about whether we want to continue to do it. The one thing I would say from my study, which followed people from their final year through out through the first couple of years in practise, is that some people had really brilliant experiences. There's some incredibly good practise out there.

Some places did shadowing, particularly ambulatory practises, practises that did shadowing, that can be a massive help for people. Places that Really considered very carefully when to make people do their first solo on call. And I think first soul on call is something that's a really big marker for whether this is going well or not for somebody for me, having looked at a lot of different people's experiences.

So people who were put into first soul on call early, yeah, they eventually got to a similar point as other people did. But it was a much harder road, just being asked to do stuff on your own and supported, learning through the types of experiences you can have in that. Unsupported space versus having really well supported on call.

And that can be incredibly difficult for practises, I know, that are facing staffing issues, but it's so important if we want to protect future staffing by doing things like retention, rather than allowing that attrition, that happens when people feel really under confident or really stressed. Yeah, and I think it's interesting something you touch on there about the support that is given when you do your first on call, and I remember like. One of my sort of less pleasurable experiences was my first week, literally I, I left Liverpool on the Sunday, started my job on the Monday in Newcastle, and I was on call the next weekend.

But I did have backup, but it was distant backup, so I was doing farm. Animal practise and equine practise up in Northumberland, so like, you know, I, I could very comfortably drive 250, 300 miles a day between calls. But my boss was always on the end of the phone, and he was, and I don't, I don't know, maybe you'll have some insight on this.

I don't know whether it was right. It'd be, it'd be a sounding board, but he'd want me to do the work because he felt I'd learn from that experience, and I think for me, I, I did learn, I certainly had good and bad experiences, certainly not everything went swimmingly. But is there a, is there a balance to be struck between sort of, you know, the hand holding, but also the sort of, right, OK, I'm going to push you through the door a little bit here.

What, what's the right way for a practise to kind of go about that? Sure, absolutely, and you, you touched on something that really interested me in the study. So obviously I follow people to 2 years post graduation, and one of the things we know about our industry now is that people who are a couple of years post graduation now are often people who are certainly supervising new graduates, sometimes the most senior veter at practise at certain times, you know, those things can occur that people very early in their career and.

Those sort of quite more, senior positions without backup. And one of the things that interested me was that people who'd had experiences of sort of baptism of fire being thrown in the deep end, these kinds of metaphors, they did tend to replicate them quite quickly with new grads that they met. And so one of the things I think about changing this is actually us being prepared to think, well, even though it happened to me.

Could what happened to me have been different, and, you know, do I need to do it for somebody else? And not everybody replicated it, but a number of people did. And despite having had one of the interesting things about a cohort study is you get people's current experiences and then you get their reflections back on them.

So although people had had a really horrible time, maybe during this very difficult period, they then said, well, I survived it and it didn't do me that much harm. But actually at the time, it was really horrible and they were having considerations about leaving and things like that. And so I think if we want to support people through that, sometimes it's about kind of breaking that pattern of like, well, just because it happened to me, that may be the only reason I'm doing that to the next new graduate is because that's the only pattern I know of being a new graduate.

So maybe we just need to have some, some models and some ideas and some examples of really good practise about how it can be a lot better than this. Obviously you touch on like, you know, experiences of really good practise. I wonder if you've got sort of examples of things that, you know, have really.

Almost inspired you really to think actually, do you know what, this is, these guys have got it. Yeah, absolutely. And so I suppose for this, it's about treating people like individuals but also having support in place and not having any sense of failure or someone's not good enough or not working hard enough and they need that support.

So what you sort of. Typically think of as psychological safety in the workplace, the ability to ask what might seem like a stupid question. No one's gonna think it's stupid.

Everyone's just glad that there's a question, glad to support, glad to help. That doesn't, some people think, oh well, does that make people too dependent? No, it doesn't.

If you destroy somebody's confidence, I think that it makes things a lot harder. It's much better to build someone's confidence. So the kinds of really good practise with things like, like the shadowing that I mentioned, like really good, clear on boarding.

So giving people time to get used to practise computer systems, those kinds of things. Cause actually, that can be where some of the stress sits and some of the slowness that you feel as a new graduate sits just trying to work the software if you've not. Used that before.

So just a bit of time to do that kind of thing. Support with that kind of thing as well, like actually having logins and email addresses and all, all these kind of really practical things. Making sure they're paid on time, making sure they get the money for petrol, making sure the, you know, all those kinds of things.

Actually, if you haven't got those in place, that does make it really difficult. Also things like thinking really carefully about for surgical experiences and surgical. Support.

Because one of the things that was really interesting for my study for me was about when people felt that they became a vet. Because I'd sort of assumed, I think, that it would be maybe when you graduate or when you pass finals, or when you start your first job. And actually, almost universally, it wasn't any of those points.

And I don't know if you want to guess when it was, but it was, it was when. People had completely unsupported, done certain what I would call call sort of sentinel or key procedures for their field. So you can probably imagine is right up there.

Yeah, absolutely. So smallies vets tend to be sort of really difficult fat bitches stay on their own, or GDB or so it's so difficult and abdominal usually, an emer and sort of middle of the night quite often as well. For, farm, it would be sort of difficult seasons, middle of the night, yeah, equine, you know, yeah, bottle colics, you know, surgical colics, those kinds of things and.

So, but the difficult thing about that is it has this model of being a vet that is totally alone, totally unsupported and completely self-reliant, but not in a kind of healthy self-reliant way, actually in a slightly toxic way that because veterinary, as we all know, works best when it's some kind of team activity. Even when you're doing on call, it's better when there's a team, even if it's just handing over cases as well from your day staff to your night staff, those kinds of things. And so having this model that you're not a vet until you're working completely isolated alone and you don't have any help is, is not helpful for anybody really.

But it, it was almost universal, which is really kind of interesting for me and so I'm interested in how we can get this sense of actually know you can be a good vet and you don't have to be able to do everything completely on your own and actually there's a real strength in. Getting support, growing, developing with support, those kinds of things. Yeah, I think that, that, that to me is interesting because actually it is something that of course when you stop and you take a look back, you look at it, oh God, do you know what, yeah, actually I do.

Everything that we measure is when can I do this on my own? And, and I think, I guess, you know, in some respects that, that capability of performing procedures on your own is fine, but then actually some of the best bets I know don't operate, you know, they are phenomenal client managers, they are phenomenal at, you know, sort of directing owners' expectations of what and saying actually I can't do this, but Joe Bloggs, who is a really good mate down the road, can do it for you. I'll get you picked up.

And and they're that. Client and that animal is well cared for, and actually that vet has done their job. But I think, is there, is there any difference between sort of the, the approach and the expectations when you're part of like a large team versus a small team, because of course, over the last 20 years, we're now in a situation where there's a lot more one and two man practises compared to where there used to be a lot more bigger practises.

Yeah. I think it varies a lot. I think one of the things that did really stand out to do with those kind of sort of slightly smaller models was the impact of staffing difficulties on new graduates.

This was a much bigger issue than I'd expected, cos you'd often think that new graduates wouldn't be the people. Most affected by staffing difficulties, you might think that would be perhaps the nursing team or perhaps the senior people, but actually, the new graduates bore a lot of it because it tended to be when there was a staffing difficulty, their support was the first thing that went. And so, and in fact, literally often it was their support that was leaving and the support just wasn't there for whatever reason because replacements didn't happen or replacements were people without the capacity to support.

And so it's this difficulty if you've gone into a job that looks like it has all the right support and then it becomes a job that actually doesn't have any. And, you know, how do people negotiate those difficult situations in work? And I think it can be really difficult for practises as well when they're facing staffing challenges, to make sure that people are supported in the right way.

And it can be difficult too for practises. I definitely wouldn't put this all on sort of one-sided thing because. I think there is something about how easy we find it as professionals to ask for support, support of all different types as well.

So not just sort of somebody to talk to, but actually what you would call instrumental support. So practical assistance with, for example. Doing surgery, like I would like somebody scrubbed in with me, or I would like this particular equipment or those kinds of things, actually how easy we find it to ask for those things.

And I think some employers genuinely want to provide those things, but don't know what it is that people want, and those conversations don't always happen in a way that works for both sides. Yeah, I think it's quite ironic really, as a, as a profession whose mainstay is based around communication, we're sometimes not brilliant at that internal communication in in order to to support, you know, our own clinical and and mental well-being over that, that sort of, you know, whatever cases we're dealing with. And of course, you know, sort of you go student phase, you go through that initial 6 months of new grad phase.

Did, did you find that the Was there any difference between people who'd had, you know, things like graduate schemes that they'd been on, or, or those that just sort of went into a practise that was just kind of like, OK, we make this up as we go along, then of course, like, you know, there's fantastic initiatives like, you know, Lizzy By Dyke set up, you know, obviously grants to vets looking at the, the, that sort of support for the independent, practise. But was there a difference between people that went on to a, you know, a grand scheme versus people that didn't? Absolutely, so I suppose one of the really interesting things again here was the range and the variability.

There was almost more. Intra sort of scheme or intra sort of set up variability than in between them, and I think there were lots of reasons for that. One of the big things that affected that was staffing, so I think sometimes they were good intentions and they just didn't happen.

But I think one of the things that was quite, Shocking and actually really difficult as someone who I suppose is, has, you know, been out in the profession for a while and really loves the profession and cares about it and, you know, it's, it's been so much of my life, was seeing how some things that on paper looked like they were, they should be one of the most supportive structures you could imagine for a new graduate. I mean I'm not naming names, but it's in terms of the types of things, but. Actually were some of the most difficult.

And I think that can, that was down to a lot of things like psychological safety at work. So being able to ask questions and not be shamed, and being able to get support when you need it for practical instrumental support as well. So those kinds of things are so important.

So it's not enough just to have something on paper. It has to actually happen and be authentic and be genuine. And for that support to be there.

And I think for people's changing needs to be understood as well. So, you know, if somebody loses confidence over an issue that, you know, that is something that can happen to all of us at different times in our career, isn't it? You have something that goes wrong, it affects your confidence.

And then at that point, what you need is you need your colleagues to stand alongside you, kind of pick you up, keep you going, and then And and help you to rebuild that, not to start, you know, not for things to start getting worse and worse. And the, I suppose practice's abilities to help people through incidents like that really varied as well. So I think there's a, there's a real range across our sector, but that's good in a way, because it means that there is really, really good practise that we could potentially learn from.

So there's stuff that is going well for people. And one of the amazing things, I suppose, about getting to do a study like this was. Just being totally inspired by the participants in this study, you know, who went through some really tough things, you know, some of them had an amazing first few years, some of them had a really tough first few years, but just the way they've come through it and then being aware of what some of them are doing now is just absolutely fantastic individuals, and I think our profession has so much hope for the future in terms of, you know, the, the people we've got coming through.

There's some really amazing people there. I think that's it, isn't it, you know, there's, there's all too often we're sort of surrounded by this sort of rhetoric that we're a profession in, in despair, and you know, there's people leaving the profession left, right and centre, but I think what is often ignored in that is that there are so many people doing so many great things in the profession. That, that, you know, for us, actually creates that really positive future outlook.

And I think sometimes we are a little bit guilty of being drawn into this sort of doom and gloom of, oh, you know, goodness, you know, this isn't going in the right direction, there's only one way the profession is going. But, but of course, I guess one of the downsides is that, you know, we know that we're a profession that does have a, a huge, mental strength. And of course, er that leads us nicely on to, to your involvement with that life, and I think, you know, you've you've been paramounted in, in shaping that life into what it is, sort of presently, but I just wondered, sort of, you know, from your own stance, what, why did you get involved with Vett life in the first place?

You know, why was that important to you? Oh that's a good question. So, so I've been involved with the Samaritans before I was involved with Vet Life, and in fact I'm still involved with Samaritans as well.

It's been 15 years now I've been doing Samaritans, and I started doing that the year I graduated from vet school. And that was, there was a couple of reasons in that. I'd lost a friend to suicide when I was younger, before university.

And then, when I was at university, one of our, one of our clinical teachers died by suicide as well. And I think that affected all of us. And I'm sure, you know, I know a lot of people remember her, and I remember I, I thought a lot at the time about, you know, implications of that.

When I'd been seeing practise when I was a teenager, the vet at the practise, where I saw practise has also died by suicide. So even before I entered the profession, I think I had this awareness that actually, Do you know there is this, this really sort of. Difficult challenge that we face as a profession and how do we support people when they're feeling so desperate and they're struggling so much.

And so I started volunteering with the Samaritans, and I found that I really loved it. And actually it was one of the best things I did as a new grad because it helped me to meet a totally different group of people who I would never have met otherwise. So, a lot of them don't have pets.

Some of them don't even like animals. And And so it was really good for me moving to a new city, starting doing this, and meeting this amazing bunch of people, really lovely. And it also really challenged me because some of the life stories you listen to are so different from experiences I've had or so similar, and it just was a really, I suppose, useful experience for me.

I It it was strange cause around about the same time I started getting involved in research on veteran mental health, I also got involved in that life, and that was very much just from caring about people struggling. Wanting to be alongside them, wanting to be able to give people an opportunity to talk. But also knowing that this happens in our profession as well.

So, I started with Vet Life in 2007 as a volunteer on the helpline, and also as an area rep for the financial support for VetLife, which not as many people. I know about that that that life financial support provides support to people who are struggling significantly financially, usually because of their health, so usually because of mental or physical health problems, and that financial support can provide one-off grants. It can provide a regular, grants to people as well who are really struggling, and that's all financially assessed, but some of the difficulties that people are facing are really acute, so it tends to be things like, Making sure somebody doesn't become homeless, they're keeping people in housing, making sure they've got food, making sure they've got basic transport, so it's people who are in, you know, really difficult situations, it's a real privilege to be able to do something quite, I suppose, practical to help them.

So I've done both of those for 13 years and around about the same time as I started that I. Became interested in mental health research, and I suppose some of it is just that, that thing that when you're in practise or when you're doing that stuff or when you're doing kind of very public facing stuff, you sometimes have bigger questions about, well, some of these issues seem really systemic, how can we change them? And looking at the evidence, there was some really good work out there, but there were really big gaps, and so I thought, well, it'd be interesting to look at some of this.

So. I did a human public health masters, which at Edinburgh, which was again a totally amazing experience and this is something that I suppose has been a real, Defining thing in my career that sometimes the most amazing interesting things have happened when I'm not just working with vets, but when I'm working with people from other backgrounds as well. So you have that amazing veterinary energy and working with vets who are incredibly inspiring and fantastic, but you also have people with very different paradigms, different backgrounds, and you're kind of working together in this really synergistic way.

So I found that really interesting, and I think that human public health side has really interested me from a veterinary point of view as well, because one of the things I think we'd make is a bit of a mistake in veterinary mental health is we look at into mental health as an individual problem, that mental health is all down to the person. And that, in a way, almost becomes what you'd call a deficit model, that there's something wrong with that person. And actually, a lot of the time, especially when you see lots of people in the same situation having similar difficulties.

There's something wrong with our systems, and yet people are experiencing the effects of those and they may be experiencing lots of other things as well, but there's opportunities for intervention if we can change those things that are contributing to people's difficulties, then that's great. So, so this kind of public health models and mental health really interested me. So I went on to do PhD, which being a cohort study was quite slow, but it was worthwhile.

And I think it's been a real inspiration to me, that opportunity to get to follow people through that stage of career, to see how people got through things, and to sort of go on and think about other things that might come from that research as well. Yeah. And of course, like, you know, there's, there are highs and lows for all of us in our professional lives and as well as our private lives.

And you know, this phase of certainly new grad, lives, you know, you go from the highest of highest to the lowest of lows, 14 times a day. And you know, I mean, I, I remember going from like, you know, great, I've dealt with my first colic, or I've done my first bite, or I've, you know, I've done my first bit caesarean to, you know, oh my God, I've just put the vaccine needle through and squirted the owner in the face. And you know, it happens, and of course, you know, as you, as you rightly say, there's.

It's something I guess I've probably never thought about is the fact that, you know, there's so many commonalities in the issues faced by people that actually, you know, there is clearly an issue with the system, not to say that it's just this is the one thing that will make it better, of course, that's, that's never going to be the case. You know, it is a system made up of individuals. But how do you even fathom going about making such seismic changes?

That will impact the profession, how, how, how do you start on that kind of journey? So I suppose one of the things that. Having a background in helpline stuff is actually incredibly useful for is getting to see the way that people manage to survive difficult situations, if even a tiny fraction of the burden they're carrying is alleviated, even if it's just that they're not the only one who knows about that situation and someone else knows and someone else cares.

Just that little fractional difference in what they're carrying that day can give people enough space and enough strength to carry on sometimes, and that's pretty amazing, it takes a long time to get your head around like how, you know. How that can make a difference, but it can. And so I suppose for me, there's a bit of a, a motto in that just because you can't do everything isn't a reason not to do anything.

So you should still do something, even if you can't fix it all, because it is worth it. So, so I suppose for me, that has a bit of a, a thing in research as well. Like, not being overwhelmed by the task.

It's really easy to get overwhelmed in this stuff. But actually, Looking for small interventions is entirely worthwhile, because it might make just 1% point difference. But making 1% point difference to everybody at a population level potentially takes a few people to a much, to a different place, to a better place.

It also, just incrementally making lots of changes like that is worthwhile. It's worthwhile in suicide prevention, it's worthwhile in public mental health. It's worthwhile in lots of different ways.

So, yeah, you'd love For those massive interventions, and there are some things that are big that can be good, but sometimes it is about those small things as well. And it's about core stuff as well, like things like making sure that people have rest, making sure that people, you know, have respect for workplaces, making sure that people aren't discriminated against at work. Those really cool things.

And we're still not doing all of those to the extent that we could. So there are loads of opportunities for intervention in this. And one of the things It really kind of worries me sometimes about the messaging in veterinary mental health.

And this is actually something that came up in my PhD that's quite unusual and quite novel, and it might be an area that veterinary informs other areas of mental health and suicide research, is that I worry that the way we talk about mental health and suicide, the way that we talk, not the fact that we talk, we need to talk, could potentially make things worse. And what I mean by that is, sometimes we have these conversations around mental health and suicide, as though. It's an inevitability that it's almost amazing that we're all still here, and you sometimes hear people say things like that.

And those kinds of conversations and those kinds of thoughts and feelings that we create through our culture and through the messages that we receive and that we give, potentially could be really difficult and really, and in fact people who are vulnerable because it might increase something called cognitive availability. So when someone's really struggling, what solutions do you come up with, you tend to come up with the solutions that are kind of, you're aware of in the culture that you have. There's also something called cultural scripting whereby people tend to follow the identity paths that are already set out a little bit through life.

So you sort of follow an identity through life that, you know, a role model on certain types of. If what we're saying to people is that. Vets who are in trouble, you know, go on to die by suicide, or that vets who are in trouble, you know, have really serious mental health problems and feel overwhelmed and can't cope and can't manage practise and those kinds of things, then that can make it, that can make those, make it much harder for people to find hope if those things happen to them, and those things happen to so many of us during our careers that we have really difficult times.

And so I think it's really important that we offer real hype to people in those situations through the conversations that we have about this stuff, and that we say that yeah, lots of us have difficult times. It is normal to have these really tough times, but it's really important that there's help there, and it's really important as well that when people are having tough times, they know that it's not an inevitability. That, you know, vets are gonna die by suicide, actually there is help and there is support, and although it might be very difficult to find that support, and we know that support isn't nearly as easy to find as it should be, that it is there for people.

Mhm. And I think perhaps there's sometimes this perception that, you know, you have to be at your lowest ebb. Before you contact someone like that life, and I know, you know, having spoken to multiple people personally over the years where you speak to them, oh well, you know, I didn't want to bother them with this and you know I, you know, they, they, they're much busier helping people that are in a worse situation than me, and of course, you know, we're, we're all guilty of, of, of, you know, sort of perhaps underplaying times when, when we're having struggles and, and, you know, suffering in silence as it were.

But what would you say? To people, you know, when when's the right time to reach out, and of course you know there's gonna be variation, but you know, is there a good, is there a bad time, is there, you know, how, how is, what's an appropriate time for people to reach out to that life? So I would say an appropriate time is when you think of it, the first time you think of it.

If you're even considering it, it's important to us, like. I've never in 10 years of sort of managing helpline and being aware of the calls that come through and the emails that come through. Never ever heard anybody say it within helpline, you know, I don't know why they've called, what's wrong, that just never literally would never happen.

And we wish a lot of the time people called 6 months a year before they did, just because we feel so much for all they've been through on their own and sometimes it's heartbreaking hearing. How, how much people have been through on their own and how alone they felt, and you just really wish that they felt able to call a bit earlier. And another thing I say to people is, look, if you're worried about calling, you're worried about contacting, you know, you're not sure how to start the conversation, how to finish it, just call, just say, look, I don't know how to start.

That's quite common, we, we find it dealing with or waiting. And look, if it's not going well, if it's not going how you planned or you suddenly run out of things to say, you can hang up and you know, we're not gonna, you can use a, you can use a name that's not your real name, you know, it's totally in your control. So if you just want to try for like 5 minutes and then hung up, that's fine.

We're not gonna chase you down or anything. It's just your space to use as you want, and it is completely confidential. So when I say you can make up a name, you can call yourself Batman, it really is fine.

The only time we need to take someone's name is if we're doing an actual referral to the VetLife Health Support Service, and that's the professional mental health service that VetLife offer, which is a free to access service. For vets and nurses. And the reason we need your real name for that is because it's an actual medical service with actual medical doctors who have to have your real identity.

However, we do keep that completely confidential, and that is separate from the rest of vet life in terms of the records and things, so that wouldn't be something that volunteers would have access to those types of records that are in there. So it's all very confidential. And it is a case of you can reach out about anything, can't you?

Yeah, literally, and I'm so glad you asked that as well, because one of the things that I think people think is it has to be vet related and it totally doesn't. So being in or around the veterinary community is enough to qualify you to call. So anyone working in a veterinary practise, we get partners of vets as well, and we get veterinary nurses, we get student veterinary nurses, we get practise managers, we get.

Reception, we get VCAs, ACAs, we get everybody and absolutely doesn't have to be that related. Might be relationships, it might be mental health, it might be self harm, it might be suicidal thoughts, really nothing to do with that. Quite often get sort of family stuff, you know, with students calling those kinds of things, worries about kids, worries about retirement, loads of different things.

And I think that that's it, isn't it? I think, you know, I've spoken to, to so many people over the years who are like, well, you know, it's not big enough, I don't need to be bothering other people and it's like, literally, you know, these guys are, are giving up their time and their knowledge and, and their empathy, and I think, you know, it's, there's nothing personally, I look at it and go, there's nothing more satisfying than, than finishing a conversation with somebody who's going, do you know what, I think we've helped them. In that circumstance, and you know, from my point of view, obviously a lot of that comes down to careers perspectives, which is to a large extent minutia compared to some of the the bigger issues that people face.

But, but it is a case of, I think we are getting better as a profession at talking about mental health issues, about our concerns. Some of my friends would say that I probably tell them far too much about my life, but, but actually I think that that. Capability, you know, we have, we have clients coming to, to, you know, consults with us all the time and you sort of wonder how much of their life they can squeeze into a 15 minute slot, and it's amazing how much we all know about our clients and wouldn't it be fantastic if we were that comfortable to be able to be that open with with others who can help and support us through that.

And I think that's one of the great things that VettLife has certainly brought, brought to the fore. Over the last, certainly the last 12 years that I've been in the profession, and I know it's obviously when it's been VBF beforehand and then sort of transitioned, there's thousands of vets that have been helped. What's your, what's your most proud moment of your involvement with it?

And sometimes it's hard obviously to sort of admit pride about these things, but there's got to be something that jumps out. I suppose it's, it's one of these things that's really interesting because actually when you're kind of doing sort of maybe more strategic stuff or you're building services, or you're starting new services, some of the big things we do is, you know, start the email service, and that's a huge, you know, amount of impact on the amount of contacts we get, which is great. But actually, for me, I think it goes back to something you were saying, which is, you know, this feeling that people have that they're a burden on people or.

You know, that they shouldn't bother us, those kinds of things. Actually, the thing that is most rewarding by a long way about doing this kind of stuff is, is often still volunteering and still, you know, picking up the phone and talking to somebody and the trust they put in you. That's, and I think people working in practise will totally resonate with this cos you will all have something that you really love about the job that you do, hopefully.

And just being able to be there for people, it is a huge privilege and I think for me as well, working alongside the amazing volunteers on Helpline. So we have around 70 volunteers on Helpline who are some of the most amazing people you could imagine. And just getting to, getting to know them, getting to see the care they have for the profession, getting to see the way that they support people, it gives me huge hope for the profession, cos there is this enormous amount of care there and I think sometimes when people, are struggling.

I've been through a really difficult time. It, it can genuinely feel like they're on their own and nobody gets it. And actually trying to connect those people with people who really do care and who want to be there for them and who will be there for the minister's service will be there as long as it takes.

You can call us as many times as you like. And, you know, we sometimes say to people who are struggling, look, You know, you can call us back in an hour if it's, you know, not feeling any better. Give us another call, we're here all night.

And, you know, sometimes that is what it takes, it's an hour at a time. And to be able to be there for people through times like that is an enormous privilege and really rewarding. Yeah.

And of course, PhD is now done. We now have a massive insight into that transitional phase. What's next?

Yeah, so, obviously carrying on with Helpline is really important, you know, making sure that service is still available for people and the amazing work that Faife does, and it's a huge privilege to work alongside the staff and trustees at Balife as well because. A fantastic group of people maintaining some pretty amazing services and I am biassed, but it's, I think it's pretty amazing that our profession is able to offer this for itself, cos it very much is a veterinary service provided by veterinary professionals for veterinary professionals. I think that's really important and ones.

Strengths. But for me, I'd like to do, to carry on some more research as well. There's some really, I think, important work to be done.

A study I'm trying to set up at the moment, really important looking at suicide prevention in facts, so very applied, suicide prevention. So what can we actually practically do that will reduce vets' risk of suicide? And I know this is a topic that a lot of people.

Might feel sort of overwhelmed by it or might think, well, actually, you know, that's not possible, but the evidence very much says that it is a suicide prevention as an activity, there are things that work and there are things that help and there's lots of evidence from other fields and it's thinking about, well, Which of these could we try in that and which of these might help. And there's a couple of opportunities for intervention that look possibly like they're worth looking at. So, so trying to develop some research from there.

And what I would really love to do as well, and as always in research is trying to find funding for it, would be to carry on the cohort study that I did. So the people who took part in it now. Are now, they're now 56 years out, and so the interesting thing about that is that's a really key time, you know, for people's careers in terms of staying in practise, particularly, which is obviously a big thing for the types of practise that people go to, whether they leave the profession, whether they go on to do other things.

And so I think understanding. For understanding that in your careers, it could be really important to pick up with this group. And they were an incredibly, I think incredibly generous group with their time as well, and a huge amount of respect for them for that.

And they agreed to stay in the study if it does carry on. So that is a possibility, and I would love to do that to have this group that we followed so we know what works for people and what doesn't. Cause I think sometimes.

A lot of the stuff is so well-intentioned and that in terms of trying to do things that help, but it's really important that we know what works and what doesn't, you know, we're an evidence based, evidence-based group of people, I don't need to make that case, so yeah, it'd be nice to do that too. Cool, and obviously, you know, we started this, this podcast talking about, you know, people in that new graduate phase and things like that, and I just wonder, what would you say to people who are, you know, coming towards their end of vet schools, you know, people going into final years thinking about first jobs, guys who've taken jobs and started them and. Perhaps not enjoying them, or guys that have have taken jobs and are loving them.

What would be your sort of snippet of advice to those guys about that sort of transitional phase? What have you taken out of your earnings from what other people have done that, that may make that more enjoyable for people? Yeah, absolutely.

And I suppose in some ways this is quite individual as well, because different things work for different people, but one of the things that I think is really important. Is if the support is right, that will really help. And that's instrumental as well as emotional support, so it's like practical support for the tasks you need to do at work and, And one of the things that we often get on, for example, when people call helplines, one of our most common calls is from a relatively new graduate, a theoretical, relatively new graduate, obviously we'd never identify anybody who called, who's really struggling in practise.

They thought they were gonna have support, the support for whatever reason hasn't materialised. They've had discussions, it hasn't still isn't there, and they're worried about looking for somewhere else because they think no one's gonna give them a job, or. It's gonna affect SUV, those kinds of things.

I would just say, your confidence should be gradually rising while you're in practise, yet we all have days where it's not so good, but it shouldn't be on a downward plane. And you should be feeling like you can trust your colleagues and you're supported by them, and those working relationships are really important. Our work as vets is, and as veterinary nurses as well, is potentially really, really important for our mental health.

And that's to do with lots of things. It's to do with occupation, it's to do with me. Meaning, that sense of meaning and fulfillment's really important.

So, I think as well as sort of looking for that support and being prepared to move, if the support ultimately isn't right and it's not working out, because I think one of the things that study people were always surprised by was how quickly they found new employment when they did move, and how different it could be and how there were practises like they had never imagined that did exist. I think one of the other things as well is around I think sometimes there's this real pressure that, you know, you've been building up to this thing for so long, this better thing, and there's sort of this thing that suddenly all your problems should go away because you've graduated, that why aren't I euphorically happy now and. Do you know, it can be really hard.

It can be a really hard time for some people it's a great time. For some people it's a really difficult time, and that's OK. It doesn't mean it's always gonna be like that.

It doesn't mean you're the only one who's ever had it that way. And the good things about that are that people get through it, and those people who have got through it will want to help you. So remember there is somebody who wants to help you, even if you haven't been able to find them yet, there are people out there who wanna help and who wanna support.

So I think those things are really important. I think as well, thinking carefully about. Who you're role modelling on and how some of the things about veterinary identity aren't good for our wellbeing.

They're just not. So some of the ways that we think about being a good vet aren't great for our wellbeing. For example, the way that our profession gives really high status to certain types of veterinary activity and other types of veterinary activity are considered not being a real vet, those kinds of things.

Actually, do you know. That doesn't, it doesn't help us as a profession to think in this really narrow way about what it is to be a vet. It doesn't help people's mental health necessarily either, to have high status on certain activities and not on others, and lots of pressure for certain activities and not others.

But I think as well there's this sense of being a good vet is not asking for help. And that isn't what being a good vet is because actually to, to get through all the difficulties we face in our careers, as well as to help other people through them when we're in a better place and we're in a place where we're able to support others, it's about accepting help, knowing how to ask for it, knowing how to work with other people, knowing that you're not on your own, and that. It's a horrible day, but there are people who are here for me.

Those things are really important. And so finding a way to adopt a way of being a vet, finding a way to be that is healthier and happier for you. So finding what's worthwhile.

And I sometimes say to people, when you're like going through seeing practise, going through your first few years in your job, you know, you don't have to stick with what you're doing. It's one of the great things of. About our career, that actually you can switch to, I know it, it's not always easy, it can be a little bit expensive, but, it is, it is possible.

And I say to people, find what makes you feel alive, find what you love. And yeah, we don't all get to do that all the time, but find some of it, because this job is hard. Sometimes it's very enjoyable as well, but it is hard.

And to do something that's hard, you need that. Meaning, you need something that makes it feel worthwhile. You need that thing that makes you feel alive.

So find that thing and hold on to it. Even if it's not the thing that's high status, even if it's not the thing that you thought you would be doing when you started out, cause I'm definitely not doing what I thought I would be doing, but I love what I do. So, yeah.

So allow yourself to kind of get off that treadmill of what you thought you were gonna be doing and look around and see what else is there. Yeah, and I think that's great advice. I think, you know, enjoying the journey.

And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's so easy in modern society to get caught up in the, well this is where society tells me I have to be, this is where my school tells me I need to go, this is where my university tells me I need to do. This is what my degree tells me that I need to be doing next. Actually, do you know what, you write your own destiny in life, and you know, if you'd have said to me.

12 years ago when I graduated, 1, I'd be a small animal vet, 2, I would love small animal dentistry, and 3, I'd have my own podcast. One, I'd have said, what the hell's a podcast. But, but you know, it is, it doesn't always end up how we, we have it set up in our heads.

But actually, I'm happier now than I have ever been, but I needed all of those other experiences. To make me realise how much I enjoy what I do now. And I think, you know, that is, no experience is a bad experience, even though it can be a hard and a tough experience.

And I know that that is, is cliched somewhat, but I think, you know, I, I'm a firm believer in. That we take learnings from every experience in our life. And as long as we do something positive with those learnings, whether that's from our work situation, whether that's from our personal situation, but to me, that is all about, you know, getting towards that end point of, yeah, you know.

You speak to anybody in life, I don't know anyone who has ever told me that they are 100% happy with everything that goes on in their life. I'd certainly know that my wife would tell me that there's a multitude of things that I do wrong on a regular basis, but I think to me it is so important that people appreciate that not everything will be perfect all of the time. And, and when things do get tough, there are fantastic organisations.

Like VetLife, to reach out to, because we don't have all of the answers all of the time. All of those of us that have gone back to the car to check for drugs and actually we're checking a textbook, or we're phoning a mate to go what the hell is this? Or taking the cat out the back to weigh it.

Guess what, it's because we don't have the answers. The owners don't need to know that we don't have the answers, but that applies to every aspect of our lives, and I think it's so important. As individuals and as a profession that we go, do you know what, it's OK not to have the answers.

And, and, you know, again, I, I really hope the phrase it's OK not to be OK, never becomes cliched, but at the same time it is that realisation that yeah, do you know what, if I'm having a bad day, there's people to reach out to. At the same time, if I'm having a good day, there's others that might be having a bad day that I can help. Totally, totally, and another thing you touched on there which I think is so important is this sense of, I think sometimes in fact, It's so easy to kind of compare ourselves to like where our, you know, classmates from Vet School are now or what other people are doing, or to constantly benchmark yourself against other people.

And actually I that very, very rarely leads to happiness in that I sometimes say pick up the bench and just put it in the bin, stop the benchmarking, just, just figure out where you wanna be. It's your own path and one of the things I think that can really help in that and our very sort of competitive nature of our. Training doesn't always help with this, but he's actually genuinely learning to unconditionally celebrate in other successes.

So just be so happy when things go well for other people. And it can be difficult, you know, if you're in a tough career place yourself to learn to do that. But it can be, I think, really freeing that others' success doesn't mean that you've failed.

You can be happy for others succeeding, find your own path. So I think that's really important too. Yeah, I think, I think that's a great place to wind up on really, to, to celebrate not just your own successes but everybody else's successes.

And we all have them. No matter how big, no matter how small. So Rosie, thank you so much.

I know sort of it's, it's, it's brought back for me lots of memories. Of that sort of transitory phase from student to to adult, I say adult to to working clinical professional, but I think that's sometimes how it feels, doesn't it, that sort of, OK, I'm no longer a student, I'm actually paying tax now. And do you know if anyone listening is having a difficult time either because they're going through that transition or because they're supporting people going through that transition and they're worried about them, or just there's something else you've mentioned, you know, that life is always there and it is never too, Too small an issue to call about, you know, if it's bothering you, we wanna hear about it.

And I think that's it, you know, it's, it's manned, as Rosie said, it's manned by 70 people who are more than happy to give up their time and support everybody, no matter how big or small. Something is in your own head, is in someone else's head, you know, reach out and, you know, you'd be amazed the positive impact just having conversations are. At the same time, what we don't want everyone thinking is that, you know, we're all gonna have problems left, right and centre, you know, it is this.

This is still a remarkable profession that is incredibly rewarding. For those of you who are in your final years, who are just starting out, you have got an amazing adventure ahead of you, and some of you will still be vets in a decade. Some of you may well be doing what Rosie and I are doing in a decade, in 2 decades in 3 decades' time.

But no matter what you end up doing, that's the right thing for you to be doing. And if it isn't, the great news is You can swap and change to something else. So, Rosie, thank you so much.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how Vett life evolves, and, you know, seeing it help more and more people. You know, it's such a blessing as a profession to have these kind of facilities. Not everybody has them.

And so thank you for all of your hard work in that. For those of you that don't know, Rosie, Rosie's recently been been awarded the RCBS Impact Award. Which probably gives you an idea of the magnitude of how much she's put in to help in the profession.

Now, of course, when you say this to incredibly humble people, they have no words, cos you sit there and just like, oh, I'm not sure what to do with all of these compliments. So those of you that aren't watching this, Rosie's just giggling away in the background going, I don't know what to say now. But yeah, I think, you know, it can't be understated how much individuals like Rosie contribute to the profession.

But I think it's also important to say that to make a difference in the profession, you don't need to have an RCBS impact award. When Rosie's done all of this, she didn't have this award as a, as an end goal, you know, it's a, it's a positive outcome from it, but anybody out there in this profession can make a positive impact, whether that's on thousands, whether that's on one individual, it doesn't matter. But, but, you know, to, to turn around at the end of the lane and go, do you know what, I've given someone a hand.

It's quite just a a nice warm feeling there. So Rosie, thank you so much. I'm gonna let you go and yeah, just keep up and thank you to everybody else at V Life and everybody who helped Rosie through her PhD and all of those of you on the cohort study, I'm fairly sure that Rosie will be getting in touch with you soon to say right, OK, let's see where you're all at.

Great. Thank you, it's good to speak to you. Cheers, Rosie.

OK, bye.