Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinar vets, welcoming you to another one of our podcasts, vet chat. We're very fortunate today to have Rowena Packer and Sarah Heath on the line. We're going to be talking about pandemic.

Before we start the topic, I'd just like to get both of them to introduce themselves. So, Rowena, tell us a little bit about yourself. Hi, Anne.

I'm Rona. I am a, an animal behaviour and welfare scientist at the Royal Veterinary College in London. I primarily, research, so my research interests are mainly around, canine behaviour and welfare, generally, related to how health impacts behaviour and cognition, and the interplay between those various factors.

But also, more and more as the years go on, I'm really interested in, human-animal interactions, and the knowledge, behaviour, and attitudes of companion animal owners and how that influences, particularly canine welfare. Thank you and Sarah. Hi, Anthony.

I'm Sarah Heath. I'm a vet and I'm a specialist in behavioural medicine. I run behavioural referrals, veterinary practise based in Chester, do quite a bit of teaching in within the veterinary profession, and a specialist in the European College of Animal Welfare and behavioural Medicine.

And I think perhaps even more importantly, Sarah, you're a Liverpool fan as well. Well, that is the most important thing about me, yeah, I am a massive Liverpool Football Club fan and we're on for the quadruple this year. Anyway, let's talk about something other than football.

Exactly, but . We, we were very fortunate earlier on in the year to do a series of webinars on the pandemic pet problems. And I know Sarah, during those webinars you referenced Rowena's work quite extensively.

Obviously Rowena's doing some really important stuff in the whole area of, of how the pandemic has affected our, our pets. Perhaps if we. Perhaps start Rowena, with telling us a little bit about the research that you've been doing for those people who haven't been on the webinar and maybe some of the main findings that you've had from the, the research.

Yeah, absolutely. So, like much of the rest of the country, back in, in early 2020 at the start of the pandemic, I was becoming increasingly concerned by media reports that more and more of the British public were either seeking out, so looking for puppies online or actually buying puppies. And it really became a bit of a, a media darling.

It was in all of the major tabloids and newspapers stating that, you know, there was a shortage of puppies during lockdown. And there wasn't much hard data at that point. It started to trickle out of some of the organisations like the Kennel Club, who reported that they were seeing hugely increased numbers of potential owners coming to their find a puppy tool compared to the comparable periods in 2019.

And this kind of, triggered this whole pandemic puppy phenomenon. And as a researcher, I was sitting thinking this would be really interesting to look into. It seems like a really important topic, but sat on my hands for a bit with lots of other work and thought, somebody else will do this.

It's fine. Somebody's gonna be on the case. It's, seems like an, an important and obvious research.

But when it appeared, nobody had, and BA Animal Welfare Foundation, and very smartly put out a call for desk-based research for kind of COVID-proof research during the pandemic. I thought, right, we need to try and tackle this and see what's going on, from a kind of comparative perspective, how and why is puppy buying changing in the UK if it is at all, given that we know that media reports aren't always very evidence-based. .

And this was driven mainly by 3 big areas of concern. The first, which the media really latched onto was impulsive buying of puppies by households who were potentially poorly suited to keeping a dog after the pandemic. Obviously, during those early periods of lockdown, life did seem so odd.

And thinking about the future, thinking about now, thinking about 2022, we didn't know what life was going to look like. So there's a lot of worry about there being a tsunami of relinquishments, once restrictions, particularly during those really tight phases of restrictions. Were relaxed.

The flip side of that was with this increased demand and what appeared to be and I hate the word unprecedented demand for puppies, that there was worries that to fill that there would need to be an influx of puppies, potentially from unscrupulous. Breeders, both including puppy farms in the UK, but as we already knew, there was an issue with illegal importation of puppies, often from Eastern Europe and the UK, so seeing breeders, and illegal importers as part of the illegal puppy trade cashing in on that increased demand. And then last, and I think this is absolutely in Sarah's domain, as, as a clinical behaviourist, that thinking about the early lives of puppies that were being reared during this period, even if they were bought by owners that were really well set up for keeping a dog post pandemic, if they've done all of their due diligence and find a breeder that didn't have any red flags that appeared to be a really bona fide breeder that cared about their puppies' behaviour and welfare, that growing up, particularly in that critical period for development, during a time where life was, excuse my scientific term, wonky, our lives were so strange.

They were so bland and barren, that actually trying to create a blueprint for a future enriched life for these dogs would be pretty challenging, given the socialisation and habituation opportunities. During some periods, particularly restricted lockdowns, would be pretty challenging. So we went about studying this with a, a UK sample, so looking at puppies who had been bought specifically after the onset of that first lockdown in in March 202,020, through to the end of 2020.

And then comparing that to. A sample of pups who've been bought in 2019 during that same date period. We know there's potential fluctuations in motivations and behaviours to buy puppies throughout the year, obviously thinking about the dog stress campaign of the Dogs for life, not just for Christmas, knowing that there is that pre-Christmas puppy buying surge.

So we wanted to try and lock in a comparable period. And we had a really great response to it, and, and hugely thanks to the UK's kind of animal welfare and and veterinary profession who shared it really widely, which really helps obviously from the perspective of, of having reliable, well-powered data, and we had over 75,000 owners take part. Who bought their pups.

So specifically, these owners who bought a puppy from a commercial seller. They haven't been, for example, given it by a family member. They hadn't rehomed it from a rescue centre.

And crucially, the pups had to be under 16 weeks to capture these puppies in this critical period, for development. And as a kind of whistle stop tour of some of our key findings that really jumped out, one of the main, Concerns was that we saw a change in the demographics of pet owners during this time. So we found a shift towards first time dog owners, so people who had, had never, had the primary responsibility of a dog before.

And also into households that more often had young children, so children aged 5 to 10. So we had some red flags there, knowing from the veterinary literature that first time dog ownership is often associated with some poor outcomes. For for dog behaviour and welfare.

And we're also concerned about the shift towards people with children in the household buying pups, because at the same time, we were starting to see these increased reports, both in the UK but also internationally of a spike in dog bites during periods of lockdown. Studies are now being replicated the world over showing that there was this increase. Risk, particularly to young people.

Rona, I mean, 7500, I would imagine is a really big sample number for some of the things that you might have done before, so it was a, a huge response, presumably. Yeah, absolutely. We were, we were thrilled to get that much data because again, what obviously is as researchers always concerned about how generalizable our results are.

Just getting it from a very odd little section of the population as we were sampling, we're keen to sample across the UK and we had all UK regions represented with no particular bias towards the usual one being in the Southeast, getting lots of London owners, but we had good coverage. So that makes us more confident that these results are, are reliable and, and representative of the UK situation. Fantastic.

And I suppose one of the questions perhaps to ask is, looking forward, has there been a lot of relinquishments as well? Have you been able to follow some of that data through cos that was the worry that post pandemic as people's lives got back to normal, we would see a rush of pets going into rescue centres and so on. Has that happened in your experience and, and yours, Sarah?

So we're seeing, we're following our pups from 2020. We're very kindly funded by Battery to follow our 2020 cohort, because the owners who want to follow on with us, to study their early lives. So most of our pups now are around 21 to 24 months old, so they're definitely not puppies anymore.

Some of them are pretty big rambunctious dogs from their owners' reports so far. . And we're seeing some relinquishment both within our cohort and from discussing with the, the rehoming sector in the UK, but I think it hasn't been as, the tsunami of relinquishments that was predicted.

I think there was a real worry that particularly when there was Freedom Day, it was in July of, of 21, that all of a sudden everybody would just be like, right, I need to go on holiday, bye bye, puppy, or big puppy or teenage dog. . And that doesn't seem to have happened in in the kind of volume that we're worried about, that are rescue centres across the UK who have reported that they are finding more jobs coming through and the media again often latch on to those, and they seem to always make the newspapers.

But I think in general, the the challenge that we're seeing at the moment, it seems in the sector is actually that More dogs that are being rehomed are presenting with significant behavioural problems. So these are dogs that will potentially have what we might think of as lower adaptability, and so might end up staying in rescue shelters for much longer and finding it more challenging to to find a home. So I think that's an evolving picture and in part, I think for many people they Lis post pandemic, or I shouldn't really say that later pandemic on as on as close to how they were in 2019 in terms of where and their patterns of work.

So there's potential that that that won't reach the levels that people anticipated. But in part, the flip side of that is, are they still suitable homes for those dogs to be in. Just being in a home is not necessarily a good thing.

I was just gonna say that, Rowena, because as you're talking, I'm, I'm just thinking about, what we're seeing. In terms of referrals of behavioural concerns, and what my GP colleagues are seeing in general veterinary practise, with animals that are coming in for their general veterinary care, where they are reporting that they're seeing animals which are much more difficult to handle, that with caregivers who are speaking about difficulty with them at home, but also a lot of misunderstanding. So unfortunately, as Rowena pointed out in her study, she showed very clearly that we were having the bias towards novice dog caregivers.

And these people also had no access to appropriate advice or very limited access to appropriate advice during the pandemic because of lockdown. So there were no puppy classes, in, you know, there were virtual ones put on, but no face to face ones. The veterinary practises sadly were absolutely on their knees and unable to have nursing clinics and unable to have sort of the peripheral care as it's sometimes thought of, wrongly, in my opinion, it shouldn't be peripheral, it should be central veterinary care, but, emotional health is, is sometimes not looked at in that way.

And so there was a lot of effort to make sure that physical health was catered for, but very, very little, thinking about emotional health of the dog and cat population at that time. And we've seen exactly the same parallels in the human animal, of course, as well, that, that they also have had a, a massive, massive increase in, mental wellbeing issues, cognitive and emotional health in humans has also been battered. By the pandemic and so we shouldn't be surprised when other non-human animals are having exactly the same, issues.

So I would say, although the relinquishment has not been as alarming as one would have predicted or certainly was we, we thought it could be, I, I think there's two effects on that. One is, as Roina just said, being in a home isn't always all it's cracked up to be, but also. Remembering that we may get a delayed effect, because we have no idea how life is going to get back to in inverted commas normal and whatever that normal will be.

So it may be that we've just got a lull before the storm, because we may be just delaying it, kicking the can down the road, and also those animals that are in homes where people are struggling and misunderstanding what's going on and, and sometimes, you know, the dominance myth is still alive and well and kicking sadly. And so people will be using punitive techniques to deal with frustrated young dogs, who, you know, because they believe they're exhibiting behaviours that need to be punished. We may be seeing in the future, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm, I'm really the harbinger of doom here, but I do feel that, the next 1020 years is not looking very bright.

The, the interesting thing, . With people not going to work and if you like spending that 5 days away, presumably the separation issues, frustration, anxiety are lessened, but nevertheless post sort of lockdown pandemic, people will be going out more so those dogs and cats will be left in the house on their own and are more likely to have separation issues, you know, again. Obviously we're talking a lot about dogs there, cats, to some degree, more likely to be a sort of solo creature, perhaps don't need.

The same attention that maybe a dog does, so maybe are they coping better with the separation, frustration, separation anxiety issues that perhaps are more common in dogs or would you say that's not correct? Perhaps Sarah first and then Rowena. It's it's a complicated one, Anthony, because separation related problems are not all related to anxiety.

It was great to hear you then talking about frustration as well as anxiety because, I think one of the things that's been shown in some of the research is that the dogs that are faced now with caregivers being absent are becoming frustrated by that change in their expectations not being met. So they have an expectation of a certain type of availability of human interaction and therefore they are struggling through frustration rather than anxiety. So I think one of the big things about this is, is to make sure we are very clear that separation anxiety is not a syndrome, it's not a thing.

You know, separation problems come from all sorts of different motivations, of which one is anxiety, but it's far, far more complex than that. And the other thing to say on the species differences is that I think cats definitely have been influenced by the pandemic. And obviously you've got to remember that, domestic cats, if they are exposed to high levels of human social contact during those early weeks of life, are likely to have a higher requirement for it or a higher desire to have human interaction, even though they don't actually need it in terms of their social behaviour.

So the difference is that cats are sociable, but they're not what we call obligately social. That means they don't need social interaction to survive, but they can learn to appreciate it. And those of us who care for cats, and I know, Anthony, you have your beloved cat, who you adore very much, and you spend a lot of social time with, and that social interaction is different from interaction with a dog, but it's very definitely there.

And we may be seeing problems in cats with frustration related to social interaction being different, and we may have raised kitten expectation of feline of human interaction to levels that, that then are not able to be met, and that could be problematic. I think it's interesting, Sarah, one, I would say. Thank you for the, the compliment there.

I've had a very good teacher around separation issues, so that's why I'm able to use the right language. But two, actually, you know, Buddy came to us during the pandemic, almost adopted us, and, you know, thinking about what's happened, I know that the household that he came from was a busy household with dogs, with children. Suddenly they're all in the house full time, they're wanting to be with him all the time, grabbing and touching him.

We, we had, you know, when we have party gatherings and there's a lot of people in the house, he will disappear upstairs under the bed or go out. So almost there can be the opposite thing, he is an older cat, he's 1415. If he's used to a housework.

There hasn't been a lot of interaction because they've been out all day and suddenly they're in all day. That can be just too much for him and actually, you know, you have to let cats come to you rather than go to them, don't you? Yeah, and many, many cats have suffered from that, and I think it has been almost the opposite for cats that, having us around all day for dogs was like, oh, yippee, yippee, this is great, we can have lots of social contact.

Although please don't think that's always the case because that social contact may have been inappropriate social contact with children grabbing and sticking crayons down their ears and all sorts. And therefore, that's not good social contact. But for cats, you're absolutely right.

One of the problems was the house was busy, but the other was, if you remember, and it seems a long time ago now, but it was good weather. Do you remember that? And everybody was out in the garden, and cats were finding they couldn't use their normal passage tracks to get from A to B, because there were gardens full of trampolining, paddling, pooling, screaming children.

And, and the cats, therefore, couldn't even get their everyday patrolling of their territory done in peace and quiet, which they're used to doing when all the humans go to school and work and the cats can do what they like. That was taken away from them. So I think for cats, life was very different in a different way.

And hence Buddy went off to his packed up his bags and went off to his retirement home. Absolutely. And Rowena, we did talk about this, didn't we?

When we've been chatting about research that sadly, we haven't done as much about cats. No, and I think it's, I've had some horrible lived experience, unfortunately, in unhappy cats during the pandemic. My, like male fits the very much with the risk factors for FIC, but my male cat, very sensitive chap, had blocked during the, the pandemic, as it seems many did.

I think there needs to be more research to see whether there was increase in. In FIC through primary practise and cats blocking. But again, every prided myself on what I thought was a pretty cat friendly environment.

And yet, when you add in all of a sudden going from, I was on maternity leave at the very start of the pandemic, and then all of a sudden he was faced with being at home with me, a 9 month old who just started to move, a lot more. My partner, my dog. And that was too much for him, clearly.

We've, he's now very thriving again in back in his own routines and having his own space, time, and many, many more vertical surfaces. But that was a huge point of guilt for me. But it was, it, I just thought, if I'm, if being what I would consider relatively cat savvy, you put enough things in place, what I thought was enough things in place to keep him happy, clearly was not.

He found it incredibly stressed. To go from a very quiet household to what for him probably felt like pandemonium for that for initial phase of the pandemic. So, yeah, I think we need to learn a lot more about those, those consequences, particularly if some of those things have been retained.

Obviously, I'm sitting here doing this podcast from the office, as is my other half, my child in childcare. He's back to having his lovely quiet heads for eight hours a day while everybody's gone. But there's many households where there still are more adults at home, or potentially more children at home or for different periods of time.

And I think considering those animals' needs as we relax, restrictions, but also as we adapt to a post-pandemic life, I think we need to incorporate our pets and their emotional health within that. That's I just could pick up there and see if I can that what Roina just said about FIC is bringing us into those of those of you who've heard me ever speak before and know about the sync model of emotional health that I created and also that I talk as well about the health triad, and the fact that emotional, physical and cognitive health are, are equally important parts of healthcare and therefore the responsibility of the veterinary profession in total, not just physical. And what Res just said then is just a lovely illustration of the fact that there's a physical disease process influenced by the emotional state of the cat, and this pandemic has really highlighted the importance of the veterinary profession thinking about healthcare in its entirety.

We are responsible for the health of the non-human animal population and therefore we have to take that seriously in the fact that you can't separate. Emotional, cognitive and physical health. It's not a case in the past, people used to ask the question, oh, is it medical or is it behavioural?

That's not a sensible question. And it's a health problem and emotional and physical factors are likely to both be involved and then cognition as well. And therefore, we, we, you know, we've got to broaden the veterinary outlook and that's what I'm hearing from my general practitioner friends as well, is that they're they're realising more and more that.

You know the patients they're seeing and these pandemic puppies may have highlighted it. That they're emotionally unstable, they're emotionally unwell, and that actually that is influencing potentially what we're seeing in health terms, physical health terms. So Rowena, maybe I'd love to, you know, get involved in research that looks at the health profile of dogs pre and post pandemic as well.

Did we see a change in FIC in cats, I think is is probably the obvious one. But what about gastrointestinal disturbance in dogs? What about infectious diseases across both species?

Because we Know that physiological stress resulting from emotional disturbance results in altered immune function, altered ability to control weight. So have we seen any increase or change in obesity? And also, it changes the mucosal integrity of organs, such as the bladder, the lungs, the gut, the skin, and it also changes pain perception.

So, the relevance of pain to the individual. So we, this, I mean, this is a, this is such a massive area. But hopefully, one good thing, we're looking for good things that can come out of the pandemic.

Hopefully one good thing is if it means that the veterinary profession is better at encompassing all aspects of healthcare and considering it, then that will be at least a benefit. But Sarah, this is something, you know, I remember coming to a conference that you were speaking at for the BVDSG for the British Veterinary Dermatology Study Group, so very much stress and those conditions that we were talking about, how they, how they interact. Just, just for those people listening who perhaps aren't aware of all the acronyms of your non-veterinary, FIC is feline idiopathic cystitis.

So a disease of the bladder. But yeah, no, it's a, it's a really, it's a really interesting point. If we could perhaps move on, I think to a couple of areas that I think are are really interesting, you know, we've seen this.

Increase in the number of pets. Obviously the cost of pets have gone up dramatically as well. You then end up when, when something is very valuable, something, somebody, I remember speaking to the Dogs Trust and they were finding that it was.

Criminal gangs were bringing in pets from places like Eastern Europe because there was less risk and it was more lucrative than bringing in drugs, because if they were caught, they just relinquished the puppies and went back to wherever they'd come from. Obviously if you're found with drugs in your car you're in for, you know, a big prison sentence. Is there a worry that has this become more common, and are we also seeing, you know, people going into professions like dog walking who are obviously, Not suitably qualified either and causing problems that way.

So we're getting, as well as having a lot of novice caregivers as in first time pet owners, are we seeing a lot of people coming in as unscrupulous breeders and, you know, in those other ancillary roles like, you know, dog sitting or or dog walking or whatever. What what's your experience, perhaps Sarah first and then Rowena. This is very, very sad, but sadly it's true.

We've seen a, a, a real change, in all of those areas. Well, not so much the smuggling, we don't get so involved with that, although I, I've heard reports of that, maybe Rowena knows more about that. But in terms of the, the issue of breeding.

And the issue of ancillary dog services, then definitely we have seen some very, worrying trends. One of the very worrying trends is the fact that obviously because of the financial change in dog purchase prices, which, again, Rowena will have some information on the percentage rises, but utterly ridiculous increases in prices. That people have seen this as an opportunity to go into breeding for for less than reputable reasons.

And obviously there are still some excellent breeding, dog breeders out there who are very scrupulous and are doing everything right. And most of the breed, societies actually do have price structures, and most caregivers don't know that, but if you're looking for a pedigree. If you go to the breed society, they should have a price recommendation for the price of puppies.

And if people are charging outside of that range, you really should go elsewhere, because, you know, if they're reputable with pedigrees, this is, then they will be following the guidance of their breed society. And I actually personally had a problem. I, I, was getting a new puppy, and as I say, in 2021.

And I got to the point of going and visiting a litter, selecting a puppy. Actually, I needed to select 2 because the, stud dog, the person had the pick of the litter and hadn't chosen yet. So I was asked to pick 2.

So I did that, and then literally, a few days, week, well, about a week or so before due to pick the puppy up, I had an email message from the breeder asking for another 500 quid. Which took that price outside of the recommendation for the breed. So the breed had a recommended level, which obviously I knew, and the price I'd been quoted was the top end of that range, which I'd accepted was OK.

But the new price, days before, after having visited the litter, etc. Was 500 pounds above the top of the recommended level. Obviously, I questioned that, and when I questioned it, I got a very not, not pleasant email back accusing me of questioning the person's integrity and refusing to sell me a puppy, which actually obviously I wouldn't have got one anyway at that extra money.

I, I since got one from a reputable breeder in the price range. She's absolutely adorable. She's 10 months old now.

I think it's, I think it's called gazumping, isn't it, Sarah? Yes, and, and if that's happening with, you know, inside, breeds, then you can say that that's definitely happening across the spectrum. And I've seen on, you know, the, the websites of, of the breed, my particular breed, you know, excess of 1500 more than what the breed, Society is recommending.

So that's one area, and then the other thing is dog walkers, dog caregiver, home borders, dog clubs, etc. And, and it goes back to what Rowena said about is it the fact that we haven't got this surge in relinquishment, is that actually, you know, a sign that things are fine? No, because the dogs that are staying in these other homes are going to more caregivers, as in things like, daycare.

They're going, they're having more dog walker experience because these people are going back to work. So yes, they're keeping the dogs, but they're needing to use these ancillary services. And so there's been a boon in people who are disillusioned with their own jobs, maybe were furloughed during lockdown, now decide they want to do something else, realising that they can make considerable amounts of money from looking after other people's dogs, and they don't need any qualification to do that formally.

They do obviously need some licencing from local authorities, thankfully, but that is very variable in its integrity, depending on the local authority, sadly. And so what we've got is a problem of these dogs being put into the care of people who don't know what they're doing. The dog walking, particularly has become much more group walking than 1 to 1 walking now.

The trend is to put them all in the back of a van, drive around for hours during the day with dogs who are distressed next to each other in cages, creating emotional distress and then walking them irresponsibly, so they then attack other dogs on walks and distress them. I mean it's a, it's a nightmare picture. And again, I, I wanted a dog walker for my dog when I, because I do have to go to work and I need a dog walker and I wanted a 1 to 1 dog walker, and I contacted 15 different potential dog walkers in my area and found only one who was willing to do 1 to 1 dog walking.

And all of them said, no, we only do group walks, that'll be fine, you know, she'll be in the, taken in a secure air conditioned van. Blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, no, I don't want a group walk.

And they said, Oh dear, has your dog got a problem? Is your dog aggressive to other dogs? And I said, no, but I'd like to keep it that way.

And I don't want group dog walking and it's almost impossible to find that. And it's inevitable if you put 1015 dogs together, they will fight amongst each other, but as you say, you're more likely to go out and attack other dogs on the walk, but also people as well. Anthony, they may not necessarily, again, going back to the sink analogy and the terminology I used there of repulsion, avoidance, inhibition and appeasement.

Remember, repulsion, which is the confrontational form of defensive behaviour, is only one form, and so you may see them that. Confrontational behaviour, but what about the ones who show appeasement and inhibition, the ones who are trying to use avoidance and can't because they're in cages. Those dogs then start to have problems of diarrhoea, problems of skin disease, problems of infectious disease.

They're coming into the vets. And then when we ask, do you use a dog walker or do you use a dog daycare centre, then, you know, again, Rowena, another project for you. What's the correlation between the disease.

Profile of pets in the veterinary practise and whether they use a dog walker or a daycare centre and what those facilities are like and that very much is an anxiety thing, they're they're anxious when they're amongst all those other dogs. Absolutely. And and again, let's just say as we did with the breeders, there are some very reputable dog walkers and some very reputable home boarders and and daycare centres, very reputable.

I'm not saying this is everyone, it's just that there has been an increase. In the numbers that are unfortunately not ideal. Perhaps just moving on Rowena, within your studies, you know, looking at the most popular breeds, because these are also sometimes the most popular breeds that are rising up the, the the charts if you like, are are breeds like the French bulldog, like the English bulldog, which are obviously not the most healthy of breeds in the first place, so we're actually.

Taking on people, people are taking on dogs that are, that they're less healthy breeds anyway and will, will be coming into contact more with vets because of the, the issues that they get. I mean, the other point is obviously these cross breed dogs which are now, from a marketing perspective, it's a fantastic job. You, you know, I used to call them a cross breed but they're now called cockapoos or, you know, whatever other poo that you want to talk about.

It's . You know, it's an interesting marketing exercise that, as you say, these aren't breeds and and you hear outlandish prices for what is basically a cross breed dog as well. Yeah, we've we've literally just got some work that to come out on that, which is actually from our pandemic puppy data set, so we.

Documented that between 2019 and 2020 that there was the biggest demographic surge was a shift from pedigree dogs to designer crosses. It was around 1 in 5 dogs in 2019 were a designer cross, and it's now over 1 in 4. So we're looking at potentially more than a quarter of of dogs in the UK and our vet compass data of vet attending dogs corroborates that we're seeing particularly huge numbers of cockapoos, probably being the.

The poster child of that, but, during the pandemic, both our data set and the pets at home, so one of the online selling sites found a huge surge in Caver poos, so cavalier, King Charles Spaniel cross poodles. And again, we were interested in in why are people flocking towards these breeds. I mean, they've been around probably more than a decade in the UK and originated from Australia, with good intentions.

So the Labradoodle was initially intended to be a hypoallergenic. And I'll send it with inverted commas, cross, between the working, Labradors, that were used in that purpose, and poodles. And they were given that portmanteau name as a marketing tool so that people would adopt the dogs that didn't make it.

Because otherwise they were, as you said, you know, people would just say, oh a random fluffy mongrel. I don't want to adopt your castoffs from your from your working, dog programmes. But that has absolutely, obviously taken hold across the world.

And in terms of why people were were trying to source them in the UK, unsurprisingly, around half of owners of those breeds wanted them because they perceived them to be hypoallergenic. Which is in, in terms of the the data behind that, it is incredibly patchy and there's there's relatively solid evidence to show there's no difference in the levels of CF one, the the dog allergen in the households of dogs that are perpeted to be, hypoallergenic designer crosses versus other dogs. And there's huge variability in that expression between individuals of the same breed.

So that's a real red flag in terms of when we think about relinquishment risks. We know allergies are often used as a reason for relinquishment. And so if you're buying a pup based on that, say if your children are allergic, then you could quite rapidly realise that that is, you've made the wrong decision there.

The other thing that really concerned us was that they were very much being sourced as an off the shelf good family dog, which I'm sure all of us know does not exist, as an off the shelf product, and we're talking about sentient animals, we're talking about breeds that have enormous within breed as well as, between. Differences. So, talking about, I want a dog that's easy to train and be good with my kids, that is a huge influence of nurture.

You're not just going to get that by buying a dog that looks like a teddy bear, particularly if that means your children are inclined to be, to interact with it in a more inappropriate way from that dog's perspective. And again, a lot of the purchasing behaviours from those owners were really worrying, so owners were more likely to be finding these pups via the kind of online selling sites, less likely to be viewing them in person prior to the purchase, which obviously, as Sarah said, is such an essential part of that process. The, the most efficient tool or the most effective tool in our armoury against.

The illegal puppy trade right now is visit, visit, and visit again. And I'm saying that 3 times because you need to visit. As soon as you can, as that, after that, those puppies are born.

Obviously, you can't interact so much with tiny, tiny pups. But seeing that litter, making a bond with that breeder, seeing them again, maybe 5+ weeks when they're getting into that really cute, playful stage where you can interact with them. And then on visit 3.

Taking them home, you can't skip those initial phases because the illegal puppy trade can and will emulate that by, for example, renting an Airbnb, getting a stunt mom, bringing in a litter from Eastern Europe, as we've already said, at little cost to them at great cost to both that dog and its future welfare and also financially to that owner. So skipping that real, real red flag. Again, the ads on cross owners are less likely to be seeing the pups with their mum and their litter mates, both illegal and a huge red flag for those puppies having not been bred in that property, which she said is now enshrined in UK law, and as we've already said about cash, more likely to cost over £2000 which I know vets in general.

They are very averse to designer crosses and particularly when they hear that owners have paid that much for a cross breed or mongrel, they are not very happy about that, particularly if it means from a welfare perspective, that owner now has less available cash either to insure or have in reserved for future vet fees. The most contentious area I think in terms of where it's a bit of a grey area was, designer cross owners were more likely to be looking for a dog that they breed that they considered to be healthy, but on the flip side, were less likely to be looking for a breeder that conducted pre-breeding health tests. And often they didn't perceive that there were any available for their breed, and potentially not if you're, if you were say an F2, so it's a lab br cross Labradoodle.

There might not be bespoke genetic tests, although there are still schemes like the BVA hip scheme. But if you're coming from two pedigree breeds of which for most, there is a growing list of potential pre-breeding screening. To think that that doesn't apply because there's some kind of magic is added into the breeding when you suddenly cross two breeds together is a real problem for the future, because again, I'd probably rather, and I'm being controversial here somebody buy a cockapoo than a French bulldog for the health reasons that we've already alluded to.

But it doesn't mean to say just because they are more sound confirmationally, that they won't have debilitating future problems like hip dysplasia, that we at least have some tools in our armoury to try and breed against. Mm. Can I just add, add a couple of the, thank you, Rowena, that was brilliant, but also just to put with your three visits, the other visit that I, I really urge people with pedigree, and intended breeding, so not only pedigree, but intended breeding, is to visit the mother before she gets pregnant, to find out whether you like the mother herself, not with her puppies, but her as a dog, and the father.

And the, when I went to visit the dad of my present, dog, she said to me, that she really welcomes people to visit the sire and is, is absolutely flabbergasted by how often they don't visit, and she always says to the breeder of the dam, these are my details, please give them to any prospective, people who want a puppy and say they're very welcome to come and meet the dad. And I think that is really, really important, you know, if, if it is an intended litter, meet the parents before I drove a, a, the puppy that I did get, not the one I didn't, because actually I wasn't able to see the father there, another red flag. But I went, you know, drove 4 hours to see the mum and the dad, first of all, before the litter was born, then went and saw them when they were born, then went and saw them at 6 weeks, then went and got them at 8 weeks.

So, yeah, that was a lot of driving, in order to make sure you had all of that input beforehand. And, if you're not doing that beforehand. How, how much are you planning and thinking and that's where this, you know, impulse buying happened during the lockdown.

None of that was happening and couldn't happen. A first time buyer isn't gonna do it, are they, Sarah? Well, they, if they don't know, if they're not educated to know what buying a puppy means, then no they won't do it.

But if, if we, we were better as a profession at trying to explain, when you're going to, to purchase a puppy, this is what you need to be doing. Maybe, you know, if you're going to buy a house, or you're going to buy a car or, you know, maybe, I mean, now there's things like cinch, isn't there on the telly where you just look at it on the website and get your car dumped on your drive, so maybe it's happening with everything. But, you know, generally a major purchase, you would see it first, you would do your research, but it's also not felt, well, in pandemic times, they weren't seeing it as a major lifelong purchase.

It was an impulse purchase for all those things that Roina was talking about that are so important. People want it as easy as possible, don't they? So, you know, the example of the car, as you say, we would have spent a lot more time cos it's a major purchase and.

That probably is translating into our, you know, deciding on a, on a puppy. Maybe just a last point because this has gone on quite a long time, but it's actually such good content and I'm, I'm hopeful that the vets and nurses listening are enjoying it and if. People, you know, from outside the profession are listening before they purchase a pet and it makes them think a bit more seriously about it and it it's really, really important.

The final thing of course is that sometimes, Now with with dog breeding, there are, there are unscrupulous sort of AI type clinics also coming about, aren't there, so you know, you won't see the dog because you might see a test tube, but that's about it. So, and, and this is completely unregulated, isn't it, as well, so we're, we're, we're getting into problems where people aren't really even understanding all the. How you bring a, you know, a, a female and a male dog together to make sure that you're having, you know, the best possible pups coming out.

What, what are your thoughts and are you hearing about that Sarah? I'm certainly hearing about it from vets, you know, breeding AI companies, sort of coming up and, and obviously being not trained and and not really suitable to do the job. Yeah, another worrying trend.

And one of the things that if you are going down that route, there are some reasons why that may be happening, for example, with, you know, using stock from abroad and those sorts of things in certain breeds. And, so again, as we said with the breeders and the dog walkers and the daycare, there's always some, there's variation in in the scruscrupulous behaviour within all sorts of areas of life, isn't there? But having said that, one of the things that I think many people who are going to get a puppy don't know about is the coefficient of inbreeding, and that's freely available by going to the the Kennel Club website or the coefficient website you can actually put in.

The names of the sire and the dam and and get a calculation of the the coefficient of inbreeding for that mating, and you can compare that with the standard for that breed. So you can actually check up on that sire in a test tube, at least to some extent to see whether it's a suitable. Way of matching, in terms of the coefficient.

But also, the other thing is to think about, again, it's the research you do. You know, if that, is a stud dog within a breed, then you should be able to get information about it. You should be able to contact the, the person who cares for that individual.

You should be able to email them, ask for photos and videos of him at home. You know, so it depends how much work you're willing to put in to finding out, but if people are not aware that this is happening and don't know that those resources are available, the chemel Club website has these resources, but lots of people have no idea about them. On the health tests that Roina talked about, lots of people don't even know they exist.

Never mind how to find out the results, or whether to question the breeder as to whether they've carried them out. So it's, again, it's, as with so many things, sadly, it's education, isn't it? It's, you know, if you know this stuff, then you can do it.

But these caregivers, if they don't have that information, then how do they, you know, how are they gonna know to what to do in preparation? Yeah, and I think it's, it's getting people invested in the whole process, as you said, Sarah, from even before the conception of your dog. And I think people think that that's probably ludicrous, that, oh, that isn't that far too over the top.

But if you want to, you know, have, and there's no guarantees in life when it comes to breeding dogs. I think getting the public to be more aware of that is also key. But realising that the the factors that you can control are available to you said arming yourself with that information.

And just making the public question some of these practises that we're seeing coming through, you know, the rise of particularly illegal AI is often to facilitate the breeding of dogs with confirmations that don't lend themselves to either conception or natural birth. And, you know, that's a huge, you would wear red flags, a huge red flag for, is that an animal that's fit for function as a companion animal. I think in most of us would agree, very likely not, if a breed, for example, needs 80+% of bitches need a C-section.

So I think just getting that people to question, and one of my biggest frustrations, and maybe it's because we're all old cynics now, but it's just making people feel less trustworthy towards people who are involved in their pets or their future pet or their pets' lives. So whether it is who is going to breed their puppy or who is going to care for their dog while they're at work. It's not this kind of blanket assumption that they're doing it because they like or love animals.

And I feel like as a public, we've got a bit of a rot into glasses effect. It's like, oh, they're not just doing it for money or people's perception of what a bad breeder is. Is, is far more dramatic.

They think it, it is the, the, you know, the horrific puppy farm set up. Again, that can be masked. And I think having that extra question in mind that we will often have if we're buying a house or a used car and applying that to our pets seems, it, you feel, you feel like the fun police sometimes, but I think it's essential to make people more inquiring and more cynical, because it's for the sake of their dog.

And their own relationship with that dog. As we've said for a decade plus, it's worth that investment. And where we saw their design across breeds, we've got owners who their key factors, the key differentiating factors between them and purebred dogs in their motivation for a breeder, was that they were, within a distance, they were willing to travel and that they had puppies available at the time that they wanted a puppy.

And as Sarah said, responsible dog buying involves sometimes. Really long distance drives repeatedly, which now we don't have the pandemic as a blocking factor that's available to many of us. And also the availability of puppies.

I feel like you've already missed the boat if the puppies are there. Ideally, in a really gold standard purchase, the puppies are a thought in a reader's mind, rather than sitting there saying that they're 8 weeks old and ready to go for 2.5 grammes.

So. Yeah, I think there's a huge shift that's needed in in the way that we think about and that we actually buy pups in the UK. And maybe as a final thing, that's the, the silver lining in in the pandemic in that it's made us think more cos we couldn't do it about what we should be doing because, you know, certainly, you know, I was a vet in practise for a long time and.

I think for a lot of people it was, oh, you know, I'm looking for a golden retriever puppy, right, I'll go on the newspaper or you know, even before the internet became available. Right, you know, who's got, you know, either a pregnant bitch or, or, you know, a, a dog that's just had puppies so we can go and see them. So this is really important information.

I always learn when I'm listening to Sarah, but I'm now also realising. I will also learn when I listen to you as Rowena, so thank you so much for a fantastic talk and hopefully this will be useful for for all the colleagues out in practise as well. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you.