Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the webinarett welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat. I'm really, really pleased today to be able to introduce Martin Mitchell to you. Martin is the chief sustainability officer at SEA, a recent guest at the Veterinary Green Discussion Forum.
And Martin, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. Perhaps tell us a little bit about that journey. You are of a, a similar vintage to myself, I suspect.
30 years ago, there was no such thing as chief sustainability officers, so how's the journey developed with Siva to find yourself in, in such an important role in the business? Well, thanks Anthony, and it was wonderful to meet you and and your colleagues at the er the Veterinary Green Forum recently. It actually took me all the way almost back to to home.
I'm a Yorkshire farmer's, son, so on the opposite side of the Pennines to you, and I suppose really that was the beginning of, my journey to sustainability cos, I think, growing up on a farm, working close to nature is, that's really what it's all about. So in many ways it was completing a full circle, but . I started working in the British veterinary pharmaceutical industry with Wellcome and Cooper's Animal Health that is now I think a part of Merck and and then I spent almost 30 years working in, in Africa, before coming back to to France here where I worked for Siva running their communications for for over 10 years and .
And I'm a relatively new recruit into the sustainability space as well, having moved to this job, just two years ago. And I think it's really good to see companies like CA taking this seriously by taking a chief sustainability officer on, and I know on previous chats that we had at the discussion forum. That it is an area that they.
They want to sort of be at the, the front of rather than lagging behind when you've had those chats, you know, at directorship and and board level. Perhaps tell us a little bit about what the vision of Siva is around sustainability and how veterinary companies can, if you like, be a blessing to the environment rather than a problem or or a curse? Well, I think.
Like all businesses, it's important to establish a vision, and we worked on our current vision which we summarise in the small slogan Together Beyond Animal Health back in 2010. And that's really driven a lot of change in our business. It was, it was really based around One Health and the idea of one health that has obviously come very much to the forefront in in recent times with the COVID pandemic we've seen.
But like all companies, it's important to. To develop your vision from time to time, and we and we did a review back in starting in 2020. And we believe that the first people to consult, when you do something like that are your employees.
We've got over 6000 employees around the world, and when we consulted them, 2, well 5 subjects came to the fore, but two of those were, one health and sustainability. The other three are actually biodiversity and wildlife. Animal welfare and then what we call one Siva, which is a a focus on the, our internal community.
But if your employees believe that you should focus on sustainability and want health in these subjects, then it's something you've got to do. So it's both driven by the employees, but also then translated into a vision by our leadership. And, at the same time, when we ask our investors and and other partners such as veterinarians, what's important to them.
Strangely enough, one health and sustainability are right at the top of the list, so it's, it's really incumbent on us to, to treat those subjects. And I think you've almost seen, again, talking about the presentation that you gave at the Veterinary Greens discussion forum, there's been a sort of a change in emphasis in the way you run your company because you've gone very much more over to preventative health with, with a sort of a surge in your production of vaccines. Perhaps tell us a little bit about some of the diseases that you're protecting against with your, with your vaccines, and of course this is meaning that perhaps we don't need to use as much antibiotics and so on if we're using vaccine type technology.
Yeah, it's it's a, it's a great question and I, I think that's why, again, it is important to have a vision because when you talk about Together Beyond Animal Health and. What does that mean if we, if I go back to, that time 12 years ago, around a quarter of our business was made up of, vaccines and preventative health products. Today it's over half.
I mean, so that, that's an incredible shift in the business in in that period of time. And I mean, what, what, what has happened practically is that clearly we've invested an awful lot more in research and development of vaccines, but we've also acquired autoogenous vaccine companies. I, I think globally we're probably, one of the excuse me, one of the largest manufacturers.
So where we don't have registered off the shelf vaccines, we have other solutions. And you can see that you know, that becomes part of an integrated one health offering where, in many countries we're able to, we're talking about biosecurity, about diagnostics, we're doing, water sampling, we're looking at, using the latest technology to to measure animal welfare. So all these things together, I think.
Drive both efficiency. So, you know, one of the issues we have in, in terms of sustainability is, as we all know, that, that famous figure from OIE of, you know, 20% of all animal production is is lost through diseases and and the waste that that creates. So the more that we can become efficient.
The more we can protect the, the, the life of these products that are so essential to both human life and animal life, and that, you know, and that's antibiotics. Mhm. Yeah.
It's really interesting. Yesterday I was doing a podcast with Hans Spolder, who is one of the research scientists at Vargaining and and he was talking all about . The project that's been brought forward by the European Commission in China talking about healthy livestock, which they're just coming to the end of that.
And of course healthy livestock is healthy in, you know, in body, but also in mind in in welfare, so that things actually go together don't they, that if we can. Put animals into a . A a good setup.
And that could be extensive, it can be intensive, but actually extensive for me always seems. You know, I like to be out in nature and I suspect animals want to be out there as well. So this is all sort of part of it as well, isn't it, that we create a.
An environment where the animal has a happy life and a happy death as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, as I said earlier, one of the primary, themes that our employees felt we should work to is is animal welfare.
I, I happen to feel that animal welfare is, is probably better than it ever was, although you wouldn't necessarily think so from. Reading a lot of newspapers, but, you know, in many, I think people. Just care for animals, especially in, in the UK.
I, I don't think there's a, there's a nation where, people love their animals more, so whether they be companion animals, whether they be farm animals, we, we all want to, to see them, treated properly and even from a pure production point of view. You know, if your welfare is poor, animals don't produce, so I I can't see that it would be in any farmer's self-interest not to be extremely conscious about the the welfare of the animals that they care for. I know we We've been talking a little bit offline as well about livestock and how those numbers have to be lined up.
Obviously with carbon as a consideration. I was listening to a, a, a debate between George Monbiot and Alan savoury, who's done a lot of work in Africa. I know you've come across Alan's work and George's work as well.
Where do you sort of sit with that? How do you see? Because obviously methane.
You know, we think is, is an issue with climate change and so on. Where do we need to change in the next 20 years in, in your view on, on livestock production in that sense? Yeah, it's a very interesting topic and I don't pretend to be anywhere near as expert as Alan and and and George in in in the subject, but if you just think about it from a common sense point of view, .
I I I don't think there are any more herbivores on the planet than there were in the Pleistocene era. So what has changed in that time, you know, we're ripping more and more oil and gas out of the, from beneath the earth's surface, and I think Elon Musker recently said that it's not what happens above the surface as it counts, it's what happens below. And it just makes sense when you look at, you take extracting all those fossil fuels and burning them, to me, that has got to be the major problem.
That said, we do need to look at the major carbon footprint that agriculture, does have, but it's complex. Does that mean more intensive farming? Does it mean?
Less intensive farming. I, I think it, it really depends on the local circumstances and, and again we had a very interesting discussion which has continued in the in the veterinary green forum, so I, I don't think we can be so prescriptive. What we, what we do know is that, you know, according to FAO 86%, nearly 90% of the.
World's Earth's surface, cannot be used for anything else other than grazing ruminants. So there's vast grasslands, there's savannah lands, you know, you cannot grow crops in them. In fact, if you took the .
Entire area of the world that's available to agriculture, the the part of it that's would be available to grow crops is around the size of the penalty area of a, of a football field. And even then, in that penalty area, for every 1 kg of plant-based food you produce, you produce 4 kg of biomass, so things like straw, etc. That, is just a byproduct.
And at the moment, most of that is fed to animals and is then turned into very useful protein. So what are you gonna do with all that biomass if you don't feed it to animals? So for me the this whole polarisation of the animal plant debate, if it is a debate, it's too important to be a debate, is is, is, is not correct.
It's not a zero sum sum game. It's not plant or animals, it's both. I think when, when.
When you, when you and I grew up, Antony, the, you know, our mothers told us it was meat and two veg in, in that order, and to me that's a balanced diet, and I think all the evidence points that it's still the most appropriate balanced diet. I mean, what, having spent so much time in, in Africa, . I, I get a little fed up of this sort of.
I got moral and cultural imperialism. I mean, we still have 3.2 billion people on this planet that according to the UN cannot afford a healthy diet.
3.2 billion, that's 2 in every 5 people, and we have around 150 million children that are stunted in Africa and Southeast Asia. That's 1 in 3, stunted means that they will never achieve either their full growth rates physically but also mentally, so they will never be able to escape both this this poverty and hunger trap.
Yeah, I think it's really . It's a complex area, isn't it? But I, I, I never like the binary discussion, as you say, which is either we have to go completely planned or we go completely, you know, meat or we eat more meat.
I do think there is a, I, I feel a need to eat less meat but a better quality. We know that, you know, some meat is, is is not of the quality and also not of the provenance as a vet. I don't want to eat meat, from a broiler factory where the chickens can't move because there's too many broilers in that in that factory or in that shed.
So I think it's getting the balance and I think as you've said from the start, as Siva have been doing since 2010 and possibly before, is it is this one health concept, which is one health is about the health of the animal. It's the health of the person, but it's also the health of the planet as well, isn't it? It, it, it absolutely is, and I think often when people talk about war on health, they, they, they forget about the environmental part and, you know, just going back to your point and, and thinking about growing up in Yorkshire, you know, my father died last year and he's he's just had a .
The local History Society just published a a a small book of his memoirs and you know, just how much farming has changed from when he grew up and with my grandfather was milking probably 20 to 30 cows, a few sheep, a few hens, and that was enough to feed him, his brother, the whole family. By the end it was just his brother that was farming, he was milking. 200 cows on the same acreage, ploughed out a lot of the the natural meadows into ryegrass and so on, and in this, .
You know, this ever sort of, quickening, one of those things that mice run around and I can't remember the word now hamster, yeah, hamster wheel, you know, just a rapid industrialization, isn't it, of of agriculture and obviously relying more on inorganic fertiliser than organic and again this is another example if if there are animals around and we can recycle that . Material that organic material, you know, the soil association talks a lot about. The actual health of our soil is really poor, because if you are putting nitrogen and phosphate into it.
So that you get the yields that you want, but eventually the soil stops being able to do that, and my belief. Rightly or wrongly, is that, you know, I very much want to see an organic improvement in soil rather than us using fertiliser, which makes production more and more expensive and it's only then kind of possible to make it. Economic if we're giving big subsidies, which to me doesn't make sense.
Yes, and I mean in the, in the UK particularly, I mean, we have a problem, around half of our lands have been naturally degraded, which puts us at the bottom of the league table of the G7, where the average is around 75%, so. You know, we've got to address that. I think it was really encouraging the discussion that we had at the Veterinary Green Forum where we looked at, people that have been successful in in developing new forms of grazing where, you know, they're integrating animal agriculture to together with the growing of crops and developing their farms so that they're more nature friendly, so.
This is definitely the way forward. The the government has a role to play there because I believe that farmers are the custodians of nature. They're not the bad guys, they're the good guys, and I think given the right encouragement, the right context, the right education, that, that they will respond, and I, you know, I see things happening.
I'm, and I'm really positive about the future. I don't think we should be negative, I think. You know, things are starting to happen, we're starting to make this a more sustainable world and we just need to accelerate that.
No, I agree, and it's it was also good to see Natural England and Helen, Donald and and Tony Juniper talking about some of these super reserves that are in the offing as well, so that we're creating landscape style reserves, because of course, as you said. With soil but also with biodiversity, the UK is at the bottom of the G7 for, for biodiversity and also you know, how much trees we have in the country, so. We really need to be able to walk the talk if we're gonna talk to other people about it, don't we?
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To find out more, please visit Simply vets.com today. Martin, I have to talk because it was such a, a superb, little story you told at the Green Discussion Forum, and I want to make it available to a wider audience.
Everybody loves a koala bear, but of course koalas are in trouble in Australia again, a mixture of global warming, some of the terrible fires, koalas can't move that quickly and then I know many of them. Very sadly were, were killed in the fires and terribly burnt, and needed treatment to those who survived. So koalas are in trouble er from the natural world.
But also, becoming more prone to chlamydia, which is causing real problems. So perhaps reprise that, lovely story for us, because as you said, it's, it's important that we are hopeful and positive because I think there are some really good things going on, but I agree with you, we have to move quicker than we are moving. So, but within all of that, please tell us a bit about the koalas.
Yeah, sure. Well, we, we first got involved in the koala work, or, or, well, not by accident, but, and it, strangely enough, it goes back to antibiotics. We want our Australian company used to manufacture a very old antibiotic.
You remember chloropheny. And, we felt that we no longer needed it in the, in the range of our products, so we withdrew the product. We didn't realise at the time that it was the main drug being used to treat koalas with chlamydia.
And when we withdrew it, the vets had a problem, we, we tried to get other companies to manufacture it, but they weren't successful. So in the end we, we decided we would bring it back but purely for those wildlife vets and, and, and supply it free of charge. So we've, we've been doing that for, for several years and working with the wildlife vets and the centres that are there to .
To try and solve this, this terrible problem, which, as you say, compounds the. You know, the real Difficulties that koalas have faced with loss of habitat and, and especially with those really damaging, wildfires that they that they had. And, and it's been, it's been very successful, but we, again, in line with our, our, our, our, our move to try and to move towards prevention first, we heard about some work that was being done at .
The University of Queensland, where they had managed to produce a vaccine, against chlamydia, we have quite a lot of experience of chlamydia as a disease. In fact, I think we've got a, a sheep vaccine in the UK that is a, is a chlamydia vaccine. So we decided to make our, scientific expertise available to, Queensland University, and we're currently working with them to make sure that that vaccine can be produced on a, well, it's not an industrial scale, it's a small scale, but to make sure it can be produced to the highest quality standards and, and it will be also registered as a, as a vaccine in Australia, so.
Yeah, it's, it's a little ray of hope for the, the koala population, but, clearly, you know, if they can't breed then, their future looks even bleaker, so I think it is a, a ray of hope for, for koalas. No, and thanks for reprising that story because it's such a. A lovely story, everybody loves koalas or pretty much everybody loves koalas, so I, I thought that would be a a story worth listening to.
. You know, perhaps to finish, we're looking at how we can start moving forward on climate change, on biodiversity, on circular economy. And I've just been reading a book which is by er the ex Governor of the Bank of Canada and England Mark Carney, called Values. And it's been a really positive book.
That seems as if there's a lot of stuff going on within the investment world, within the banking world, lawyers getting involved, legal, people and. That fills me with hope, but then there's always that nagging doubt in the background, which says, well, let's face it, bankers haven't got the best reputation. 2008, they made a mess of things.
Are they a bit more interested in money than in the environment, so. Can we take them seriously and. Seeing the sort of progress that perhaps is being made in those areas, should we as vets and as veterinary companies and as veterinary industry, should we be leading this with our intimate knowledge of people, animals and the planets, and how can we perhaps move forward quicker?
Because my feeling, looking slightly from the outside, but obviously trying to, to help, . Facilitate and accelerate this, this change that we could and should be doing more. We should be seen at the centre and I'm not sure we are, or, or would you disagree with that, Martin?
It's, it's an interesting point. Maybe first turning to the financial community. You know, we're, we're a private business owned by ourselves as, as managers, but we have a.
A raft of private investors, who. All I know is that they are extremely interested in in sustainability. You talked about the the legal side of it.
Well, clearly, legislation in terms of ESG environment, social and governance is stronger than it's ever been, and in, in Europe, in 2025, all companies will be required to report. On the CSRD, Corporate Social responsibility Directive, which is a, an extremely, serious, set of, conditionalities that are there, so. In many ways for companies now, .
How you are rated by the financial community is not only just in terms of your financial performance, your profit and loss, but also whether you do good or bad in terms of your environmental and social impact. And they are also required by law now to assess all their portfolio companies on that, on that basis, so. I think in answer to your question, I, I think it's very real.
It is driving change. When I talk to our own investors, I know that they are, a lot of them are very serious, environmentalists. I mean they, they care about the planet as much as you, you and I do, so I think, I think they, they are serious.
I don't think they're driven only by . Self, aggrandisement or whatever the right word is, I think they, they have a a genuine desire to see progress in in the same way as we do. Turning maybe to the veterinary profession and perhaps Siva as well.
I, I think we've been a little slow to be frank. I, I think we, we could have moved probably much faster earlier. We've really accelerated in the last 2 to 3 years, so we now fully understand what our, we've measured our carbon footprint, we fully understand what that is.
We've put in place measures to improve our, our sustainability, . I, again, in, in terms of the profession, I, I know that one of the things you're passionate about is, is renewable energies and and just simple things like accelerating the number of practises that have solar panels as one of their principal sources of energy, and I think you set yourself a target of 200 practises to to persuade to do that. And these are the, the, the small steps that we have to take, but small practical steps, you know, when we, we had the earlier discussion around the, the bigger picture and, and it's very complex, but there are certain things that we can control and the things that we can't control.
If we look at at Siva in terms of our own footprint, it's basically Parito's law, so around 20% of our emissions are related to things that we. We do ourselves, so the energy sources for our factories, the travel, etc. Etc.
And we've taken measures to control that immediately. All our, all our new buildings will actually be, will be carbon positive or will be, drivers of, of . Of, of energy, for example, but really the big, 80% lies in our supply chain, so what we're the goods that we're purchasing in, again, it's complicated because a lot of pharmaceutical active ingredients now are purchased in in China and India.
So it's a long supply chain, it's not always easy to have the right sort of discussions, in those countries, although China's probably, I don't think people realise is probably leading the world in terms of renewable energies and the the steps that they put into place. I was talking to somebody who'd just been to Beijing and they say it's incredible. 80% of the vehicles now are electric, and, and just the difference in the .
In the smog that was there and he talked about the noise level, he said the noise level is just completely been reduced, which is again, so, you know, that's why I, I feel optimistic for the future, not, not negative because, you know, things are, are moving in the right direction. And I think it, you know, one of the stories I always remember is that the the horse manure crisis of the 1890s and basically nobody thought they could solve it and obviously the car helped to solve it. So it is clever people and business that will that will really make a difference, hopefully with government supporting those issues as well.
. Martin, thank you so much. It's been so enjoyable speaking to you. I know you've been quite modest about the, the new building that's being built, in the Bordeaux area, which is going to be sort of energy independent of the grid with all of the energy that it will be able to produce with solar panels and air source heat pumps.
And this sort of circular economy also with packaging and things, I think is. Is something that I know you're, you're really interested in as well. So thank you so much.
Thank you for all that you're doing for the environment and Siva are doing for the environment. And I'm hoping we'll see you at the Veterinary Greens discussion forum which next year is taking place in London in June again at the London Wetlands Centre. We always like to keep it at a nature reserve because, I think when we see the beautiful surroundings of Brockholes and London Wetland Trust centre, it makes us even more committed to try and save it, doesn't it?
Oh, absolutely, and, and thanks again for the invitation to attend the forum. I, I would encourage all your fellow veterinarians to, to attend. It was, I came away, just feeling that my batteries have been recharged.
I had some great discussions with. people that are doing so many wonderful things and, and learn so much. So I, I think it's a, a great forum that, we can all be part of, and, we shouldn't just meet once a year.
We, it's important that I know you've got your LinkedIn group that we, that people join that and, and we, and we, and we share ideas to, to protect our future and our planet. And I think that encouragement is that hope that we have when you're able to share it, it supports each other as well, doesn't it? Because I, I like you, a man of hope.
I think this ship can be turned around and we all have our part to play. We're all participants. We can't just expect government to do everything.
It's it's individual acts as well, isn't it? It absolutely is. You're a man of hope as a Liverpool supporter, I suppose.
This is right, we did, we've been doing well, maybe not last season, but let's hope for this season. Martin, thank you so much for coming on and looking forward to seeing you again soon, and thanks everyone for listening. This is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar vet and this has been Vet Chat.
Take care, bye bye.
