It's Anthony Chadwick on another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast. I'm really honoured and a tiny, tiny bit starstruck up Kierra Barmano on the line today on the podcast. Those of you listening on, or watching on our website, the Webinar vet.
You will see that I'm in my t-shirt, from my marathon that I ran 19 years ago, and, and it's to really also welcome and introduce Kira, who is a ultrarunner. I mean, marathons aren't far enough for you, are they, Kiera? That's just like a little stroll in the park.
Well, I think marathons are, a different, different league. With their speed. But hey, nice to meet you, Anthony, and I'm honoured to be here as well.
Well, it's great. I mean, and, and you're following in a tradition of vets who do crazy things or are exceptional athletes. Obviously we've got Laura, Laura Muir, who's well known I'm sure to a lot of the veterinary community, but you're also a vet.
Tell us a little bit about your, background. I noticed the accent is. Has a has a touch of antipodean about it, so maybe tell us a little bit about the background, how you got into veterinary and how you got into running.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so, you picked up on the accent. I'm originally from Australia, but, now I'm a bit of a, I guess, world child, spent the last 8 or 9 years, travelling around the world.
And that's been for veterinary and for my ultrarunning passions. I started off, studying at UQ in Australia and graduated in 2013 and worked in Oz for a few years before heading over to do the, the UK locum thing. And, alongside my, like veterinary studies, I started running ultras and doing pretty well at them, and just loving that as much as I loved, learning veterinary medicine and practising.
So, yeah, I've kind of just, carved a path that has fit both of these passions into one life, which has been like a little bit of a different way to go about my veterinary career. Obviously, Kira. I used to find running a really, and I still do a therapeutic way, you know, after an evening busy surgery to go out, go over the day, etc.
I, I found it a good way of blowing away the cobwebs, but also just the headspace as well. But of course when you're running long distances and also training to be a vet, I mean that's a huge amount of hours, how did you manage, To fit everything in, you know, I was going out and running for half an hour, an hour maximum, I guess your training runs are a lot longer than that. Yeah, I was, yeah, I guess, yeah, kind of managing it.
Maybe not very well. There wasn't much else, in my life apart from the vet and the running side of things, to be honest, for quite some time. Because my training weeks would be probably around 2020 hours, a week.
And then, yeah, vet school is like, it's not, not a walk in the park either. So I used to get up sometimes at 3 a.m.
Before uni to go for my long runs, and get long runs in on the weekends, training. Yeah, whenever I could. So I became really good at managing my time, but, in retrospect, maybe burning out a little bit.
Yeah, so I mean, how far would, or how long would you be out? You'd be out for 2 or 3 hours on a run, so you'd be running sort of 2030 kilometres at a time. Yeah, it really depends on what I was training for and, just my training for the day.
So I do like 1 to 2 long runs a week, and they could be anywhere from 2 hours to 6 hours. I think even longer now sometimes. And then you'd have shorter days where you're doing more quality sessions, like interval training and stuff that you, you probably know from your marathon days.
Yeah, no, definitely. So. It it's It's interesting cos as you say, it probably depends on the the event that you're doing cos some of these events are over several days, aren't they?
It's not just a one day event, it's it, it can go on for a long time. And I know that you always have that look for the mountains, so you, you are often in the Himalayas or in the Caucasus or wherever. Yeah, so, running, like in the mountains, long distances brings this incredible sense of peace, and I think, a self-confidence and calm, to my life, and that really helped me.
Especially when I moved to the UK and was locuming, I was doing some pretty, stressful jobs, like working as a night vet, in Oxford at the 24 hour clinic, in the emergency department, sole charge. And yeah, that's not such an easy thing to do, but yeah, having this like piece come with me, travelling back from Nepal is, It was really good for handling stressful situations and keeping my cool. Yeah, I think that's really important because we obviously have problems with stress in the profession and, you know, the long hours can have something to do with that and obviously working at night I think is, is difficult because often the cases are emergency cases.
So, so very much it's a, it's a resilience that gets built up with running as well, both resilience physically because obviously you're fitter. But also you, you get that mental fitness and I with running those long distances, there's a huge psychological side to it, isn't there, because. You know, it must be very easy to stop, you know, and to give up when it's a huge distance, 5 kilometres, you know, most of us can get around that some way, but, you know, 100 kilometres is a completely.
It's a completely different mindset, isn't it? I think so, yeah. I don't know where it came from.
I think I've just always had this mindset to kind of push a little bit further and be curious about how far I can go. And how I can enjoy, like, going through that as well. So.
Yeah, it's really important, whatever you do in any. You know, whatever you do in it, whatever walk of life, it's so important to love what you do and I get a real feeling that you love that kind of long distance runner, often solo runner, but presumably sometimes you run, you know, with groups as well. How do you compare that solitary, you know, long distance runner to the, you know, running in a group are both things important?
Absolutely. I think it's really important to enjoy this big part of my life with others and kind of, yeah, spend time like sharing that stoke with them. But, these, yeah, I guess expeditions that I do in the remote regions around the world.
I've done them with, like filmmakers and photographers and friends, but also on my own. And there's something different about running through a place where there's absolutely no one for days on end. And yeah, you're just there with your thoughts and really connected to nature and your body and it, yeah, it brings, it brings something different to the table.
And for me, I, I really love this feeling and take that back to me with me wherever I go. Yeah, I mean, we are very, the podcast talks a lot about sustainability as well, because as a profession, we need to be sustainable, but obviously also the environment. And more and more now we're making, you know, challenges on the environment that it's hard for the environment to be able to pay, pay.
Do you see some of that happening, you know, in the mountains where you see the snow melting and so on, and is, is there a fragility also to the mountains that you know cos you're there, you know, so often as well? Absolutely. I've seen since I fell in love with the Alps, these 8 years ago, I've seen dramatic changes in like the glaciers that are around me here in Zerma and other parts of the world.
And also the The weather changes as well. The patterns aren't as stable anymore. So you certainly, yeah, do see that and the changes in like the, the wildlife as well.
For sure. There's been a lot of terrible weather events almost every week, there's a, there's a weather event, you know, Storm Daniel's gone through, with a lot of destruction through Greece, through Bulgaria, obviously also Libya as well this week, when we're recording this podcast, so it is . It is a worrying time and I think I know you blog a little bit about all of your experiences as well.
Is, is that something that you talk about at all in your blogs? I guess like being aware of the changes that are happening in in nature and trying not to make too much of an impact on that myself, is important, but it's also change and, and there's nothing or, I guess there's, there's only so much that we can do. So living our lives, like stressing about.
What's changing around us doesn't really help to, to improve things. So just being aware and making as little impact as possible, but, but also being OK with, with change, whatever it is, is all right with me. Yeah.
Yeah. And, Kiera, tell us about, you know, the favourite races and expeditions you've been on, because I know you've been on a lot, and obviously you do compete in some of these ultras and I know you do really well on those. Tell, tell people a a bit about some of the successes you've had in the races and the expeditions.
Yeah, I think, one of my favourite races is the ultra tall Monte Rosa. It's a run around Monte Rosa here in the, the Swiss and Italian Alps. And I won that a few years ago, and it's just incredibly beautiful and brutal simultaneously.
So that's, one of the favourite races I've done. But what's inspired me more over the last few years is actually going on some expeditions and doing like remote running over multiple days in, in mountain environments where there's not a lot of people. And you're just covering a lot of ground, each day and a lot of vertical metres and going places where Yeah, it's really difficult to get unless you're an endurance runner.
So this has been really, yeah, magical experiences for me, especially the ones that I've done in Nepal's, Himalayas, the Caucasus Mountains, some regions of the Alps as well in Switzerland, and also in the Middle East, in the desert mountains. I know you were talking about film crews sometimes following you on these things. I mean they, they need to be pretty good runners to keep up with you.
I'm presuming they're going in cars and dipping in and dipping out of the expeditions rather than trying to keep up with you Kira. Sometimes, sometimes I, I snag some really good ones that can keep up, which is great. There's not many of them out there.
And, yeah, but it can be a bit of a logistical challenge when you're, when you're trying to do these crazy things, but also take, make some content out of it and some art out of, out of the project as well so we can tell our stories. And yeah, so that has been a mission at times where we've had to use like helicopters and And cars and stuff to get people where they need to be. Yeah.
It's it's brilliant to hear these adventures cos obviously I, I think that. We can also learn so much from them as well and obviously all of this costs money, and I know you've got some really kind sponsors, on running obviously quite famous Apparella shoe, manufacturer as well. I know they've been really, supportive.
You, you must go through a fair pair of a fair number pair of trainers when you're running several 100 miles a week. Yeah, that's funny you mention that. On the shelf, just beside me right now, Anthony, there's, I don't know, maybe like 50 pairs of shoes, that I rotate between.
So, yeah, it's probably the biggest part of my wardrobe, my shoe collection. And yeah, super happy to have, on supporting me in this project. And you always have a a favourite pair of shoes as well, which you keep hold of probably for a bit longer than you should because they're just so comfy.
Yeah. Yeah, I have like, maybe like 20 pairs of the same one that they're just so good. I can't get rid of them when they're ready to go.
Yeah. But obviously also running in the mountains, it's really important to have the right apparel, and I remember when I did my first marathon and I can't even talk about how amateurish I was. But even things like .
I, I discovered I'd not run very far before I did the first marathon, which was really foolish. And then about 13 miles out I realised how chapped my nipples were. And luckily there was a John, Saint John's ambulance person and I got loads of Vaseline and sort of Vaseline up and and managed to stop them chafing.
I mean you're long, long distance. I don't want to get too personal, but I'm sure there are some preparations you have to make to to sort of keep the body from falling apart. And the skin, as a dermatologist, I care about skin.
OK, for sure. Yeah, there, I think I've got my pack dialled pretty well for these like multiple day runs now. But the things that I never leave home without, sunscreen, of course, wet wipes.
And also, I have like a, a tennis ball that I'll take with me on every expedition, because your muscles get tight and, you run into like injury problems from overuse, and just getting to the end of the day and like rolling on the floor with a tennis ball can help. Help like massage all the knots out and make it possible to keep going day after day. Oh, I like that tip.
I was saying before on another podcast how I love doing the podcasts and the webinars because if I learn one thing from them that will take me into my, that I can use my clinical practise, then that's, you know, that that that's a successful. Like podcast or webinar, but in the running, so, so with the tennis ball, is that sort of on legs and in back and things that you will, and, and will you lie on the tennis ball and then just move around on the tennis ball. Yeah, like the bats, the glutes, the glutes especially.
I've got that. Yes, it's like the black roll or the foam roller, but, a tennis ball is more manageable to take in a small pack, so. That's the trick.
Yeah. I I of course do a lot of apparel. I mean when you look at the way that clothing has improved, you know, for mountaineers and runners over the last 50 years, it's massive, isn't it, because being comfortable.
Does allow you to go further, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And in like the extreme environments that I'm running in, where it's down to sometimes -20 and snow, it's really helpful to have, a brand that supports me and will give me, make things especially for me to keep warm in these environments.
So like the Merino thermals and down jackets and stuff that I have, have been super helpful, yeah, to get through and not freeze to death. And hands as well, presumably, and my hands struggle in the cold. You've, you've really got to make sure you're not losing heat from the hands and the head as well, haven't you?
Yes, definitely. When I used to locum in the UK, I had to wear like big thick gloves in the morning before I'd be working in the clinic because they'd be so cold. It would take like some hours for them to like really get nimble again and you've got to do surgery by like 10 or 11 a.m.
So, yeah, gloves are important. And obviously also with you, Going in rather inaccessible places perhaps where they've not even been mapped very well. I know one of your other sponsors is, is FatMap and presumably they help to make sure that you don't get lost wandering around the Himalayas.
Yes, a super helpful tool for making sure that, Yeah, I can actually prepare my trails because, yeah, they're not always the ones you find on most maps. And to be able to look at, yeah, what the topography is like, if it's passable as well, or if there's gonna be too much snow or a river. Or something, having, having these tools has been really useful.
Yeah. And even presumably the ultras, you know, the paths aren't always as clear. One of my recurring dreams is always, going the wrong way, even in a 10k or something, you know, which I'm never at the front.
So that's not particularly a problem, but yeah, you, you've really got to have the navigation skills, even on the competitive, you know, ultras as well, don't you? Yeah, for sure. I've, I've definitely been lost in an ultra before and had to like run back and make up some kilometres again.
And that can either like make you or break you. So it's better just to know where you're going. Yeah, mistakes make miles.
Yeah, it's interesting that, well, it's a frustration, isn't it? And once you get frustrated and you're thinking about the past rather than the present and the future, then it, it must, psychologically it can mess with your head a bit, can't it, on a run. Yeah, I think it can psychologically mess with your head, or it can provide fuel for, even doing better.
So it's just our perspective, right? Yeah, one of the R words of our value words is innovation, and you know, we try and do things in innovative ways at webinar vets. And one of the things that I'm really fascinated about within the pet industry, but also in the human industry is, is all the wearable tech and and I know that you're pretty wired up when you go for a run as well, aren't you, because.
Knowing that sort of information like sort of your heart rate and so on, can really help you know at what levels to, to run at as well and I, I think it's that 4th frontier of providing you with a lot of your, your wearable tech. Yeah, I actually, had a bit of a funny ECG a few years ago, and got my heart checked. It was a little bit larger than normal because of all the running that I'm doing.
So I started wearing 4th Frontier, which is a heart rate monitor, but it also tracks like my ECG. And heart rate variability and body shocks, so I can better know what's going on with my body, and, and learn to read it a little bit better, which is really interesting when I'm running like long and especially at high altitude as well, where, where things are, things change and we're putting more pressure on our, our system. I must admit, I, I.
Wore these a bit when I was running a bit more competitively and it's very much knowing your levels, you know, during the run, if you try and run at 100% the whole time, then you don't run very far. So when you're doing your treks and your ultras, what sort of level of the heart rate are you at for most, and obviously it will presumably go up over time, but what, what are you trying to, what level are you trying to be at? Yeah, I guess, just like zone 2, usually.
My coach used to say, go for your long runs so you can have conversational German at the time. And my German's not very good, so that means keeping it pretty easy. Yeah, casual pace.
But again, when you're at high altitude, you can be going pretty easily and still huffing and puffing a lot. Well, one of my, things that I'm sort of most proud of is I managed to get up Kilimanjaro again about 20 years ago. And just that last point, that was.
I didn't run up, I didn't run up here. It was a very, as the, as the Swahili . The Tanzanians say pole poly slowly slowly.
But even, you know, at that level which is. Nearly 6000 metres, just walking a couple of kilometres took me a couple of hours because, you know, you do move that slowly. So the fact that you're, you know, at high altitude and running again is, is, is amazing.
So it's not only an ultra, it's an ultra at altitude. Yeah, . I don't know.
I, I don't know. I like discomfort, I guess. But yeah, it makes me feel so, so alive to be in these places, that are really in inhospitable and, yeah, pushing my body and minds to the limits.
I come back from these like with a really full cup. So, yeah, that's why I keep doing it, I think. Of course, presumably the mountain training.
Acclimatises you so that you, when you do go down, I think a lot of the work showed that people's oxygen capacity increases, so you can then, you're fitter when you're back down at sea level, aren't you? Or you're at Zimat, which is obviously high but probably not the same layers. Yeah, you have about 6 weeks of, of feeling really good after you come back from high altitude training.
It's, it's pretty magic. Yeah. Brilliant.
Obviously you're doing all of this stuff, but I know you're still keeping your hand in in the veterinary field and obviously you've started a telemedicine company based in Hong Kong, which is where you were living, I think before Switzerland, wasn't it? Tell us a little bit about what's got you into the telemedicine field. Yeah, sure.
Well, I guess it started way back when I had my first job, and I just couldn't fit in anymore, the ultrarunning and the travel with the high altitude ultrarunning, along with a full-time, like, veterinary job. And, for a long time, I was questioning whether veterinary was the career I, I should have taken because I have this big Passion outside of that as well. And I couldn't, I couldn't combine them, like the stress of both.
So, yeah, I started locuming and then, travelling the world and was spending more and more time in the mountains, where I couldn't locum as a vet. So I started working for a telemedicine company a few years ago. And I just was like overwhelmed by how appreciative, clients were for having this service.
And then when I moved to Hong Kong, I realised that this service wasn't available in so many countries still. And yeah, in Zamma as well, like very inaccessible to vet clinics. So I started my own, and I think I've always had this passion for startups as well.
So, it really fits to be able to, to use my, abilities as a vet, and my profession still, but also go down the, the startup road, especially, having a, creating jobs that are more flexible for, for vets like myself that don't fit into the status quo of what, what a vet surgeon used to be. And I suppose startups and . Doing ultrarunning is, is not that much different because the ultrarun you've got to sort of think and plan.
Kind of decide that there's gonna be different stages of that journey, you know, it's, it very much, they're both journeys, aren't they, where you know that you will have to prepare to be able to run and then obviously you hope that you'll have a success at the end, but of course a lot of startups fail because of, you know, poor planning or it was just the wrong time or people didn't put enough effort in. It it is, it's a high risk sort of profession, you know, when you go out and do a 5K, you're pretty confident you'll be able to drag yourself around, but 100k, there's a lot of doubt in there. Well, there probably isn't for you because you presumably have to believe that you're going to get to the end of the 100 kilometres, but it's, it's less likely than you do in a 5K, isn't it?
Yeah, there's a lot of things that can happen in a 100 kilometre race, or a multi-day run, in the mountains. But yeah, having this belief in yourself is important, and just going into things with endurance and grit, and I don't know, a curiosity as well, I think. You're either gonna succeed or you're gonna learn a lot along the way anyway.
So, And I'll, yeah, I like to bite into, to big challenges. Yeah, I think one of my mentors said to me one time, you know, there's, there's no such thing as failure, you know, if, if something's a success, you know, from a monetary perspective or whatever, if, if it's not a success from a monetary perspective. If you've done something like a startup or you've tried to run a, you know, a 50K or 100k race, almost certainly you will have learnt things that you'll be able to take into your future life, and that makes it .
It's a much more positive way of looking at things, because failure then. You know, in some ways never happens because you learn even when things don't quite go well, don't you? Absolutely, yeah.
Kiera, I could probably talk for hours, but I know you probably haven't got that time because I'm sure you're about to go out for a long run or something. It's been for me to be able to speak to you and talk about all the fantastic things you're doing, you know, with your running, but also I think it's a great example of, I, you know, that people talk a lot about shortage of vets and so on, but there are so many jobs that vets can do, you know, within and without the profession. I think we're in danger sometimes of tossing people away or maybe people leaving the profession without realising how flexible the profession can be, and you seem like a fabulous example of that.
Thank you so much, Anthony. Yeah, that means a lot, like. Yeah, I think if we don't fit into the mould of what a veterinary associate is or only our own clinic, then there's absolutely ways we can carve our own path, instead of leaving the profession, because it is so unique and, and so beautiful.
So I hope that, yeah, I can inspire others to also, yeah, just think about how it's gonna fit them. In a way that works. Brilliant.
And Kiera, if you're over in, in the UK at any time, feel free to come up to Crosby and do the park run with me. I'm not gonna say I'll keep up with you, but it would, it would be lovely to meet. If 5K is long enough, we, maybe you could go out an hour earlier and and jog around the beach for a bit.
I'll run to the start.a, thank you so much, really appreciate your time. And yeah, good luck with the future.
It runs and obviously, the telemedicine company Vett Lee.com, that's VTLI.com, but we'll put some of maybe some of your .
Your social media and, and so on, underneath the podcast so people can follow you and see what you're getting up to. Perfect, sounds great. Thanks so much, Anthony.
Thanks everyone for listening. This is Anthony Chadwick from the webinar est and looking forward to seeing you on a podcast very soon. Take care.
