And I can invite all of our speakers to join us by switching on their cameras and by switching on their microphones, because this is the part that really we get to the nitty gritty and we get to grill them all, with, with some great questions. So I'm just gonna ask everybody to confirm that they are here for the panel session. So Carlos, are you here?

I, I am here, yeah. Blended Andrea. Yes, I'm here.

Fabulous Oy. Oh yes, I'm here, you can hear me. Oh I got that you were just in time, just in time.

Yeah, I'm here, yeah. Brilliant and Louise. Yes, here.

Excellent. Well, I'm certainly looking forward to this side of things, just to give everybody, there's been a few questions related to the logistics of the day, which I know is, is one of the key outcomes for everybody to make sure you can get your CPD certificates. So those CPD certificates will be available to everybody from the webinar that website by the back end of next week, .

They may be available sooner, but certainly, you know, they may not be until the back end of the week there. The recordings will also be available next week, and as I touched on at the first point of the day, one of the most important things that we, we look at when we're creating content and when we're creating these fantastic courses for you is what you find useful, what you find insightful, and in the aftermath of all of these things, people get sent a survey. And I I know that like me, you get sent a survey with every product that you buy nowadays, and it can feel somewhat arduous in terms of going about and filling them in.

But your insights will really help us to shape the CPD as we move into 2021 and of course beyond. So all of the feedback for that would be, would be really fantastic, because then hopefully, you know, we have more great days like this, hopefully, brought to you by. Royal Canon, although I have to say I think Louise's way of saying it, Royal Canon is much more exotic.

So that brings us round to our our Q and A panel session. And there's been some fantastic questions that have been asked by people in the audience so far. I would ask you, if you do have questions that have come to mind, please do ask them in the Q&A section, and we'll do our best to get through as many.

Them as possible. And I think one of the, the questions that has really jumped out to me, and sadly it's from an anonymous question because I want to give you all of my applause, is, do you think millennials will drive companies to change or improve their ethical and environmental practises? And I'm gonna open that up to everybody, so by all means, fingers on the buzzers, jump in first.

I, I'll start, . It's that's a very difficult question to answer. I don't think we've got clear evidence that that may actually happen although we do know that The behaviours, expectations, perceptions, attitudes, and so on of of millennials are completely different, to those of, of senior, senior vets.

It's almost like a big generational gap. Now, if you are, if you assume that the younger ones are more environmentally minded, which I am sure we can all agree on, and that the older generation will slowly start to retire, then you would assume that on a whole, the, the veterinary sector will start to become more environmentally conscious. Now, I haven't got any firm evidence that that will actually happen or when it will happen, but it seems if you follow the logic that that potentially is what, what should happen.

Yeah. I, I'd just like to add, I agree, and we don't, we don't know or we don't know, but we do, we do know that they are, that they, they think more ethically, they, they expect organisations to become more ethical. Now whether organisations listen to that and respond is really the driving factor, because really, no matter what the population thinks, if the organisations don't respond to be like that, then, and it, and it doesn't make them go out of business or doesn't make them struggle, cos at the end of the day.

I, I'm very commercially minded. It's kind of about the way money flows. And if, if, if organisations aren't punished for doing something but really by revenue, then they'll just carry on doing what they're doing.

But if they are punished for doing that, then they will change. And, and it really depends how much that group or the younger groups effectively punish organisations by not by not using them, not spending them with them if they're not, don't have the right ethical credentials, which will mean whether things will change or not. I'll just come in and I think if you think about it maybe an internal, so that might be the external of what who, who buys what from from us as a a vetting profession, but in terms of who's driving our vetting profession is, is going to be the younger, younger generation, and they are the future of the vetting profession.

And I think even I've qualified now for, 18 years, and. The environment and the attitudes have changed considerably since. Since in that time, and we've still got a long way to go, in, in some, in some workplaces.

That's not just, just that you either, but if we don't flex and adapt and grow to accommodate the needs of our, the next generation of work of the workforce, then actually, are we gonna have a workforce and the, the, the workplaces that are, not bending over backwards to just give everyone what exactly what they. But actually working with, with the needs and the different ways of doing things, rather than this is how we've done it forever, and this is what we're going to always do, then we're gonna, we, we will, we won't be able to deliver the service, let alone doesn't matter what the consumer wants, because actually we won't be able to deliver that service because we won't have the engaged team. So I think it's, I think it probably comes from both, both areas of the driving of the internal workforce and then also what we're then delivering to our customers as well.

Yeah, and, and I think that is, you know, there are of course the, the two elements to that, and, you know, like you rightly say, Caroline, it's people that we're, we're looking to attract to our business, but it's also then people that we're wanting to engage with and keep within our business. Now, I think the real interesting point that you made there, Caroline, I think it leads really nicely onto one of the other questions that was asked. And it's looking at the fact that, you know, these younger, well, now millennial generation, who are qualifying as vets and nurses and and are engaging with the profession, on that side of things, and, and one of the questions, again, another brilliant question from an anonymous attendee, do you think there should be more leadership pathways opened up early?

For SVNs or early into their careers, both, both male and female vets, I think there is a tendency for clinically good RVNs to go into leadership roles when perhaps there would be better candidates to be leaders and at earlier stages of their career. Yeah, Andre, you go and then I'll, I'll say something. So I think that, I think that was the sort of what I was trying to get across is that actually starting off by having, having a, a framework where you start off by leading yourself.

And then, and then leading others with different stages, different levels of responsibility and accountability, but, but clearly building those, those leadership programmes into those job descriptions and our level of expectation of individuals who take on those job roles and supporting them in them, would, would be my point. So yes, absolutely. I, it, it starts from the day we, we enter that professional register, whether we're veterinary surgeons or veterinary nurses.

Yeah, and I, I totally agree with Andrew. I, I think one of the big challenges we've got within the profession is that we, and, and many professions haves, not just the very professions. I also work with accountants.

I work with doctors. I work with solicitors, so people who are technically good at what they do get promoted into the leadership position. And leadership is all about people.

It's not about technical skill, and it is a learned behaviour. So just because You have learned for the last 5 years how to be a technical part of being a vet or or or nurse or whatever role you have, and then you're good at your job, does not give you the God-given right to then become a leader. And we have too many damaging, behaviours in, in leadership.

And so it comes from that self-leadership, understanding yourself, and understanding and, and growing as a leader. And then, And it just in terms of everybody in the is a leader because you're leading clients and leading colleagues every single day, but then having structured training and appropriate training help you with the people part, the non-clinical elements, the non-technical elements, and that's where we need to really focus to regardless of your, your, your gender or your age or your role, it's, it's all about. People, and, and making sure we're empowering people with the right skills and just because you've been in the practise for a long time, or because you're really good or you're the highest turning over bet or the a nurse, you cannot lose, that doesn't mean that you should become a leader at all.

So, and do, how many, so often when I'm coaching people, especially in leadership results, wells, do you have the time in order to do that? Have you had time allocated to do it? Do you have the skill level?

And do you even have the interest to do it? Or actually is your biggest headache the people part, which is the leadership part. So, squaring some of those, or rounding some of those squares, I think is probably, we can get better fits.

Yeah, and I think, I think it is something that, you know, it's, it's finding the right people for those gaps, isn't it, as you've both said, and I think, you know, we are, as you say, you know, we're perhaps guilty of being driven by the people with the best er KPIs or OKRs or whatever it is that your particular organisation measures, but actually, you know, it's. Of people being shoehorned into roles that they're perhaps not looking for themselves. And again, I think that leads us onto quite nicely onto a question from Steph, er, which is Carlos said that disillusionment with the job and career increases during the lifetime of vets.

Do we know what the major drivers for this are? Well, we did, we did a piece, probably 5 years ago about the idea of a, of a veterinary union to support and protect the, the interests of, of veterinarians, particularly the younger ones. And the main themes that, that, that came out were The recurring ones, increased stress levels, extremely long working hours, also the fact, simple facts that there was a bit of resentment between the younger vets not feeling supported by the, the senior vets and having to rely quite a lot on Veterinary pharmaceuticals in terms of actually training them and sharing information that is more relevant for them to make them better ve veterinarians.

So within the practise you get, you also get this disconnect with the, the younger vets not really being tutored by the, the leaders in the veterinary practise to actually become, make them become better vets. And this is one of the reasons why this illusionment probably starts to creep in so quickly after the first couple of years, in, in Veterinary practise, of course, there are other issues that they were probably the romanticised vision of veterinary medicine, which contrasts quite markedly with what really happens in veterinary practise. That, that's one of them, but that happens in every single profession.

It doesn't mean that we should be seeing that very high disillusionment very so fastly, in, in the younger veterinarians. Yeah, I think, I think it is interesting, isn't it, to look at, you know, again, as we've, we've touched on with so many things, it's looking at the trends and, you know, I think as clinicians, when we look at cases that we're dealing with, you're often digging in and you're really trying to, you know, extract insight and data, but we're perhaps guilty of not doing. That, when we look at, you know, the health, of our businesses and of our staff and of our client bases, so I think that is something that, you know, is, is a real take home message for everybody to look at, at drilling into that kind of thing.

And I wonder, OK if I can come to you, one of the things that you guys have been very good at, is drilling down into that data as you alluded to in your talk, now. I, I just wondered, sort of, you know, er, as, as, as organisations that are invariably, you know, time poor, and, and to a, to a large extent resource poor, are there any shortcuts that people can take in terms of getting data from their, their client base that that you guys have found useful? Yeah, I, I think all organisations are, are, are, are time poor and resource poor.

You know, I, I don't, it, it probably didn't sound like it when I was saying we'd do all this and you can see everything on the website, but, you know, it's all judgement decisions you have to make with the how you spend your money. But, but actually, . There there is no substitute for talking to customers about what they want, right?

So whether or not you see our flashy heap system or the rest of it, but when we started the business, the, the thing we did the most was built a system and literally got customers to come and or potential customers sit in our office, our, our, or broom cupboard as it was in central London at the time, and do, try and buy insurance. Right, you know, here's a system, try and buy it. And see what happened, right?

And we just had people just literally coming in out of the office doing that, talking to us, making notes, learning a bit more, telling them what what they hated about insurance or or going to the vets or advice they got about food, all the things we've discussed. And we made notes about it and and and understood it more, and, and there is no substitute, ultimately, in the end, for understanding, customers, speaking to them and speak taking speaking to lots of them and making notes about what they are, because those things are invariably true. So it's not about flashy systems, it's about really, really getting to the understanding of what your customers want and expect from you.

And I will say really quickly, with, with what's happened in the last 6 months. For every single person on this call or every professional on this call, it couldn't be more important because cos those needs and expectations have changed massively in a very short period of time. And there's a good chance if you don't understand what they are, you'll completely miss meeting the needs of those customers.

Yeah, and I think that's it, you know, ultimately, as I, as I touched on at the very start of the day, you know, without customers, we don't have businesses. And I think, you know, when I, when I use that quote at the beginning of the day, . From, from the founder of Walmart, you know, that is very much, you know, in, in the times in which we live, we can't give them what they want, they will go somewhere else and get it.

And that, that is something that's, that's always to be, you know, front and centre of our organisations. Now, one of the, one of the questions that is is perhaps a little divisive. And we always love a divisive question in a Q and A panel session, don't we?

It is one that's been asked by Fidelis, and, and that's, I, I dare say, aimed at Andrea and Caroline, and, and, and I dare say Louise as well. What would be your comment on the common attitude of women not supporting other women in leadership? Now I know that that's something that, you know, we, we, we get insights to, on, on social media and different bits and bobs where, you know, people are, are perhaps brought down a peg by, by others' comments, but I, you know, I, I think certainly we look at, the comments about leaders across the profession in the last 12 months and beyond.

Fantastic elements of that, but is this something that you've seen in the veterinary profession, any of you? Well, I, I think if we go back to that paper that, that I talked to in, in my session, in that, that's, that's one of the very few papers and is the most recent in terms of interviewing leaders, that, that didn't seem to be coming out from, from what they were saying at all. And, and I think actually it may be that people assume.

That because somebody is of a certain gender, they will be treated in a different way, whether they're male or female. And it's actually it's not, it shouldn't be gender related, it should be those leaders supporting and nurturing others, and finding those support mechanisms to support them, I think. So that that's the only comment I have.

I, I would build on that. What I heard taking from Caroline and and both Andrea's sessions was, you know, what are the behaviours we want to see coming from our leaders and, and, you know, those behaviours, you know, let's hold that to account as opposed to the gender or the person or or the individual, you know, what is, what is the behaviour and actually if we're building people up. If if we're supporting them, encouraging them, nourishing them, you know, regardless of the stage they're at in their career, that only fosters a self-fulfilling benefits and for people and, and for businesses and ultimately animals as well, because we get the right outcomes.

So for me, it's it's all about the the right behaviour and I heard that from both our speakers today, just my thoughts. And I would build on what Louisa just said. I think it is.

I was going to say it's about behaviours and is it really actually only women doing this to other women, or is it that maybe men are seen what men do is seen as constructive and useful, whereas when a woman does it, it's bitchy and taking somebody out. So, just putting that there. So it's more for me it's more about the behaviour of of somebody, and, and just, and I think just being able to call out.

Well, so it comes down to role modelling good behaviour of what we want to see, and calling out when there's poor behaviour. I've been, I've been asked, by a senior person who was male and not female, but basically made the comment of, Are you sure you want to work full time because you're a mom and surely you're needed at home. That was only 2 years ago.

So, that's not OK. That's not OK. And it may, and, and, .

But it's sort of like, oh, that's OK because he's a male who said that. And that's somebody else has also said that whereas if as a woman that she would have been called something probably different. So, I don't think it's necessarily gender, I think it's about behaviours and what we allow to.

What we allowed to happen. Yeah, no, I, I think, you know, when you, I think fortunately in an age where people are actually. Hopefully feeling empowered and strong enough to turn around and when someone says something that, you know, previously people would maybe have raised an eyebrow out and brushed under the carpet, er people are now actually challenging them, on those opinions and it's it's nice to see and it's encouraging to see, and I think, you know, occasionally these things boil over and .

The topics that you sort of sit there almost chewing through a box of popcorn, watching an online spat. But invariably they're they're constructive conversations and you think, actually, as, as Andrews rightly pointed out, whether a person is, you know, male, female, black, white, whatever they identify as, actually, if they're doing their job. Doing it well, then everything else is completely irrespective.

Carlos, you have more graphs on your computer hard drive than I dare say, anybody in the history of the world. So one of the, the things that is really fascinating is, is actually we're we're starting to look at lots and lots of trends across the veterinary profession, . And invariably we're drawn into negativity.

But, but what are you seeing as positive trends across the profession at the moment? Well, as I mentioned, I think the, the biggest one is, Pet owners appreciation of, of, of veterinarians in general, and I think that's, that's a halo of, of general pet owners appreciating healthcare. So they, they have a better relationship or better appreciation of veterinarians.

That, that's, that's the number one trend. The #2 trend, which I think is, is, is particularly relevant, especially since we've been talking about gender differences. Is the narrowing and, and hopefully, soon to disappear gender pay gap.

We, we've got ample evidence that at least amongst the recently graduated. Veterinarians that there, there is no pay gap at all. If there is any pay gap, it, it, it's, it only starts manifesting itself amongst veterinarians with 10+ years of experience.

Now you could argue that that's because different life stage decisions actually happen. Motherhood going into part time or just men asking, being more likely than women to actually ask, ask for a pay rise. But the evidence at least that we have at the moment is for, for equal pay happening and, and it's been happening for some time.

The other ones also, of course, is the increased use and reliance on technology, and this is something that I think veterinarians expected what's going to happen, but the current situation has, has accelerated on things and they're, they're expecting that diagnostic tools, cheaper diagnostic tools, cheaper MRI scanning, cheaper technology, telemedicine is one of those facets are, are the things that are potentially gonna have the biggest impact on I'll say that, that, that those would probably be the, the biggest changes in terms of what's actually gonna happen over the next couple of years and, and as I, as I mentioned, COVID has actually exacerbated those changes which have slowly been, been accumulated over the last couple of years and everything is just being brought forward, not by a couple of months, but by a couple of years. Yeah, I think that is, you know, as, as we've seen on several avenues and in several different sectors that really has sort of, you know. Advanced, our, our technological adoption, which, which, you know, from my point of view, I, I, I see it as a positive.

I think ultimately, you know, my, my, my personal driving force is, is, you know, that pet owners seek out veterinary advice and veterinary expertise over, you know, unregulated advice. And of course tele and digital, makes that slightly more accessible because as you pointed out earlier, you know, we do have this staffing challenge as a profession, certainly in the UK and I'm aware of that wider field. So, you know, when we don't have that bandwidth in the physical, capability to.

Deliver those services, then of course other avenues and making it more streamlined and easier to do that, as has been evidenced by bought by many digitally improving that insurance journey, then hopefully we can digitally improve that access to veterinary information, and that, that for me on a personal level is something that is incredibly exciting. I just wonder for, for each of you individually as we start to look to, to wrap up this session, you know, with your, with your individual areas of expertise, what's the one biggest challenge that you see for the future of veterinary professionals, and maybe, you know, the one solution or piece of guidance that you've got, and obviously I'm aware that Carlos, we've just had an answer from you, so if we maybe start with Andrea, er, and then Oki and Caroline Louise and then, and then finish off with Carlos. I, I think it is about us doing what, what we've been talking about here today is, is really embedding those leadership behaviours really early on, and, and where we're employed by major employer groups that actually we, we ensure that those, those people frameworks, the, the, the sort of the, the job.

Progression roles do have that as a fundamental part of, of those job roles with people moving forward. And so, you know, rewarding what what I termed as sort of sometimes hidden hidden positive behaviours, and not just the, the clinical behaviours in terms of, in terms of what we want from our leaders of the future. Was it me next?

Yeah, far away. Yeah, sorry for the pitch thing. It's not because I'm doing something incredibly secretive, but the, the video that that doesn't allow me to show my camera.

So there you go. Just so, just in case you're all wondering what the hell is he doing? Right, so I think, .

So, as far as I like at the moment, you know, what's happened with COVID has made us walk through a one-way door. We've walked through that door, we're not gonna go back. So one of the biggest challenges for all organisations, every organisation, is this whole concept that we're in a space that we don't yet understand and know.

I don't know the vet, vet profession that well, only the last 4 years and what I know of it. But, but actually, most industries are very slow to adopt new technology. And I think that the biggest challenge for all industries, I mean, I was in retail for a while and no one wanted to shop online.

Now everyone's used to shopping online. That's been, as Carlos said, that's come forward 2, maybe 3 years, right? So what's the, what's that thing for vets and the ecosystem, you know, I put that ecosystem thing up.

What, what's the answer for that? What's the answer for food and the relationship between food and nutrition and wellness and insurance companies? What's the answer between vets and insurance companies for, for, .

pet care and how that's gonna go in the future, and I think the challenge is gonna be for everyone, but especially for this profession. What does the future look like, because the future is closer to you than you think it is. Right?

It was maybe 2 years away, that 2 years is gone, it's now right here on your doorstep. And how the profession as a whole reacts to that will be incredibly interesting. And I think it's gonna be about partnerships in the future, which partnerships with whom that work for the customer, right?

Not for you or for us, but for them, and they will make that work, and they'll be the determinant of what, what the future looks like. Fantastic, thank you, Caroline. And then, yeah, me, I think it's about sustainable working and are we fit to fit for practise, and I don't mean fit for practise, I just mean fit for, for the environment that we're in and, and under the, the challenges that we have.

So, and that will come down to not focusing on our technical and clinical skills but focusing again echoing really what Andrew says the, the people part, the leadership part, the. All the non-clinical elements of, of how we do our job and are we, are we flexing as an individual, a team, a practise, an organisation, and a profession to be fit for purpose to deliver the animal care, and which we, which we all, that is one of our primary drivers, but actually, are we, are we, are we all working together for a sustainable way of working? Yeah, no, I think, right, and it's actually one of the slides earlier that Oki shared looking at product market fit when you're looking at a product.

And of course as employers, you know, we need to make sure that we are a market fit for our employees, and I think, you know, that is absolutely one of the key take homes for anybody in in leadership and in management and in employment, is that, you know, making sure that we are the right fit for the people that we have working for us. Louise. And I think I, I would build on on each of those elements that that you've all just contributed.

And a challenge that highlighted for me, Carlos, your statistics about retention, and the percentages of, of our professionals looking to exit and the, the profession, that's a real challenge. And actually, if we go back to why. Why did we all join, you know, why are we all in this profession?

I left banking to, to join this profession, you know, that's how passionate I am about it. And I think, you know, yes, there's an obligation to do all the things that our speakers have just described and also reconnect with our purpose. Why do we do this?

I think we do it for, for wonderful reasons and actually reconnect and yet layer in and build all of those elements that we've heard of from our speakers today, the right behaviours being fit to meet the, you know, the expectations of the market, the technology, all of those pieces, but remembering why as well, and, and that purpose and. A senior leader in our business, you know, was quoted recently as saying performance without purpose, you know, without purpose is isn't meaningful, you know, purpose without performance isn't achievable, and we need both, to, to deliver on that. So, why?

Remember why we do it. Yeah, absolutely. And then finally, Carlos.

Yeah, I agree with all of it. I would just like to to reiterate what, what I said initially. And even though a lot of what I, I described can be seen in a with a very gloomy and, and sad tint to it, as, as Louis said, just to remember that a lot of these, a lot of the veterinarians joined because they had a true passion for, for the care, care and health of, of, of pets.

Now, That can only take you up to a certain point, there, there comes a point where. That love of your profession, almost like crashes against a reality of, of having no work-life balance at all. So then what really I think, everybody should be striving for the health and benefit of the profession is to regain that sense of, of well-being of, of enjoyment in practising veterinary medicine that everybody had.

I want to say 1015 years ago, since then, it's become much more difficult to actually, feel the accomplished, well, I'm not gonna say accomplished, but, but feel. That their day has been rewarding, happy, and successful just because of all the challenges that everybody has on a, on a day to day basis on regaining that work, work-life balance, I think is critical because it's going to benefit stress levels, it's gonna benefit the intention to leave and it's gonna make everybody better vets at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely, and I completely agree with everybody's viewpoints, and I think, you know, ultimately this is a profession, we all have jobs and the lifeblood of the organisations that we all work in, it is money.

But how we make that money, I think is, is evolving, and it's quite exciting to see how that, that, that moves at an increasingly rapid pace towards being our, our new norm. As it were, and one of my favourite quotes is that money is only a byproduct of being engaged in a worthy cause by Hira Smith, and I think that absolutely resonates in that, you know, if you create a workplace, or if you create a product that is a worthy cause, then, you know, to quote some famous movie lines, you know, if you build it they will come. And I think, you know, that.

That is such an important message that if we get it right, individually, as practises, and as a profession, then as we move forward into 2021 and beyond, then I see a really, really positive and exciting future for for us as a profession and and in our place as part of that that pet parent ecosystem. So thank you all so much for your time to. For your knowledge, for your insights.

We do hope that everybody is taken away, at least a few snippets of insight. I know if you're anything like me, your brain has been bombarded for 4.5 hours now, and you probably need to go and lie down and have a cup of coffee to try and digest it all.

The recordings will, as we've said, be available by the end of next week, as will the CPD certificates, and again, not to. Harp on about it, but if you could fill in the surveys after it, we will love you forever and a day. So thank you very much, everybody.

It's nice to have a CPD session that is finished before 2 p.m. And I don't know where you are in the world, but in Liverpool, for once we actually have the sun shining, so I'm going to go and up my vitamin D, and I hope you can get to do something enjoyable with the rest of your day.

So thank you very much, everybody, and take care.