Hi there and welcome to Vet Chat, a new podcast for the veterinary profession brought to you by the webinar vet. We're gonna discuss all things from clinical cases to hot topical debates. I'm your host Ben Sweeney, and for the first time in my life over the episodes ahead of us, I'm aiming to listen more than I talk, and I can't wait for you to join me for the adventure.

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat. Today I am joined by the glorious Liz Barton, who I am able to count amongst my friends, who I am on the board of spivs with, who has got a whole range of interests across the whole profession and outside of the profession. So Liz joins us as the editor of Veterinary Woman.

She joins us as the co-founder of Vet Mums and the Well Vet Movement, and as someone who has had a real positive impact on bringing to the fore the plight of women in the veterinary profession in the modern age. So Liz also, as a little bit of a fun fact, comes as a distant relative of Samuel Mudd. Now those of you who are up to date on all of your history will know that Samuel Mudd, er, was responsible for offering the last.

Efforts at treating John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Abraham Lincoln way back in the 19th century. As you can see, my history is not strong. Fortunately, Liz has a much better success rate at treating her patients on the basis that Mr.

Wilkes Booth did not survive his little endeavours. Liz, it's boss to chat to you. It's kind of weird to do it in a formal capacity rather than just on the blower to each other.

It's great to have you with you and obviously you're with us in your sort of capacity. As a veterinary woman and also as a vet mum. So I think first and foremost, most important question, what is harder, being a vet or being a mum?

That's a tricky one. There'd be a different answer for everybody. My personal answer is that at times, being a mum has been harder.

I would say the 9 months of pregnancy were pretty flipping awful for me. And then the following year of sleep deprivation and sort of groundhog day of, of. Yeah, pretty banal, menial tasks.

You know, is, is, is really tricky and challenging. Similarly, you know, having a bad day at the clinic is incredibly challenging as well. I would say, you know, the rewards for both can be enormous.

And, you know, on a good day where you've done some pretty awesome surgery and you got your diagnoses right, and you got the thank you letters from the owners, you know, that's fantastic. But, you know, again, on the, on the flip side, when your kids give you a big hug, that can make up for a Everything. So yeah, it, it goes through, through phases.

I would say the one that I was expecting to be a bit easier was parenthood. So probably the one that, that came as the biggest kind of tidal wave of, of shock really was, with becoming a mom. So yeah, I think it's the one that's harder to prepare for and harder to anticipate the impact on your life.

So, yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously, you know, you know that we, we've got a 4 month old little boy at home, and I think shock is absolutely the right word for for that. Process of sort of delving into parenthood and I remember kind of going into it thinking, oh yeah, it sounds, you know, I've done night shifts, this is, you know, this is gonna be alright, you know, we, you know, my wife's a doctor, she's done nights, you think, you know, if anybody in society is going to be geared up for this, that's us.

And oh my God, it hits you like a train. But but yeah, and I think, you know, obviously, you know, as parents and and as veterinary professionals, there are a lot of expectations and a lot of pressures on us to, to succeed and, and you know, you see. Those two things sort of coexisting, are there similar challenges in being a vet and being a parent?

I think the perfectionism one is huge, so, you know, you wanna be the best mom and, you know, bring your kids up in the best way and, you know, sleep train them and sort of make sure everything you do is evidence-based, etc. But when your brain has gone to mush and you're sleep deprived, that's really hard. So, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that sort of drive us sometimes to, you know, work too long hours.

And, and, you know, really sort of flog ourselves in practise can can be the same sort of driver. Yeah, absolutely, and I think, you know, that is that perfectionism is something that is penetrating through so many different aspects of community. Indeed we did one of our other podcast episodes with with Katie Ford about imposter syndrome and perfectionism being such a big component of that particular issue.

It's interesting with impostor syndrome as well, because, you know, you kind of every now and again, you sort of, oh, limey, that, you know, I'm responsible. For these, these are my children, like the buck stops here, like I am a mum and yeah, you can have a bit of imposter syndrome about that as well, like 100%, and of course the difference is, like, you know, you finish vet school and you kind of know you're ready to be a vet because you know, you've passed your exams, you've got your degree, you've got the certificate, and I still remember walking out of the maternity ward at the hospital and like they just waved to you. And you sort of sat there going, hang on, I'm walking out of a hospital with a kid here, like, you know, I can just about be trusted with my dog, but the fact.

Like you're just letting, there's no exam, there's no test for it, like, you know, it's a proper challenge. I mean, I think we need a PDP phase for parenting because, you know, PDP didn't exist. In fact, I was on the pilot trial back in 2004 when I graduated, and, you know, I can remember thinking I've been sort of had my hand held and had all this really good preparation, and now all of a sudden, here I go, and you know, I, I did have a supportive practise, but even so, you know, here's a sharp blade and a load of drugs, off you go.

Yeah, I like that, I like that, yeah. The PDP, the parent development phase. Yeah, absolutely.

And what I found astonishing really with parenthood was, as you described, but you know, for me, the lead up to having my first born was, I was overwhelmed with information, you know, I had pregnancy books, I had NCT groups and midwife appointments, etc. And I knew what was happening to my body and my baby every single day. And then, you know, you kind of walked out and there was just this information void.

Could go and find, you know, looking. For information, but you're not really in the sort of mental capacity to be able to, you know, critically appraise which is the best evidence-based resource and what you need and what day and what order to kind of get through and you know, my, it it all sort of started off with writing a series of articles for Vet Times called Mum's the Word, which literally took people from, you know, trying to conceive in practise through to when their kids leave, you know, school and university, and took them through all the phases of parenthood with a sort of shared. Experiences of women throughout the profession because there is no manual for afterwards.

And, you know, I remember kind of going, well, I'm, I'm starting back at work, but, you know, I need to express milk. Like, what, what do you do? You know?

And the son of disappearing off into some cloakroom, you know, kind of sheepishly pumping away during my, you know, limited lunch break so that I, my breasts didn't burst. There's, you know, that's just, no one tells you. Yeah, I mean, I have to say fortunately that's not a situation I've found myself in over the last 4 months, but you know, I have gained a few little dad pounds, so rather than having ds I do now have kind of man boobs.

But I think that's about as close as I will ever get to being in that situation. But yeah, and you know, but the, the, the kind of just surprise of, of, of, you know, lactating actually being quite difficult at work, you know, quite painful, quite restrictive and having. To manage that without any, without, with it being such a taboo subject that, you know, I didn't know anyone who'd said anything about it ever.

People just got on with it. And, you know, for the men in practise, they don't understand unless we actually open the conversations and say, you know, actually this stuff needs to be taken into account, and if you want us to, to work to our best, we have to be able to, you know, facilitate things like breastfeeding in the workplace. So, yeah, it's, important conversations that just weren't happening, which is why I sort of thought.

Opening those conversations, really. Yeah, and I think obviously we touched on one of the problems there, but what, what do you feel is like, you know, the, the biggest challenge for not necessarily just mums, but, but, but women in the profession right now? I mean, it's definitely juggling the demands of home versus demands of career.

So whether that be professional development as a, you know, referral specialist, I think a lot of women certainly feel that once they've had a family, that door is closed to them. Mhm. And I think to have accessibility to women in the profession of, of all ages and stages, they really, we need to look at alternative residency models, part-time residencies, etc.

You know, I, I think that's a conversation that really needs to open up. Yeah. And the other thing is sort of development into leadership roles within the profession, be that within the organisations and professional bodies or within practises and practise group facilitating that around being largely the primary carer.

Either for parents or or our own children, and also largely being responsible for, you know, the unpaid labour within the the home, etc. You know, there's a lot of figures around the amount of unpaid labour that women do compared to men, you know, both at home and in the wider society as as well as, you know, for their own families. So, yeah, just, just enabling those women to kind of go into leadership positions and and how we facilitate that.

Yeah, and I think, you know, you only have to look at people's involvement. In the profession and some of the, you know, the high stakes roles and, and, and organisations that have been built up with women at the helm, you know, you look at the likes of VET Partners with Joe Malone as the CEO there, you look at Vet Help Direct with Suzie Samuel, who is one of my other guests on the podcast, who's, you know, she's really built and structured a revolutionary er organisation there, and you think, you know, there are women who are very much at the forefront. And, and, you know, to a large extent I dare say.

Rightly so, because we are a population as a profession who are around 80% female, and obviously, you know, you do need that, that I, I dare say, you know, in this current political climate, a proportional representation potentially, and I think, you know, you know, great having Daniela as BVA president at the minute, so, you know, there are these roles that are being filled by women, but of course, in order to to move the profession forward, they do need to be not just roles filled, but positive changes and. You know, what, what have you kind of seen in in recent years as, as, you know, the major positive moves. I mean, opening up the conversation for a start.

You know, I think it's massive, obviously the work that BVA did on, on the gender bias that is present within the profession, I think has been quite sentient in terms of saying, look, there is gender bias there. Not, not just regarding pay gap but also regarding promotion of women as leaders and as role models and people to look up to, that was part of the work they did in that. You know, exactly the same male persona was actually thought to be more of a leader and somebody that that you could kind of rely and trust on to refer others to.

Over and above the female, you know, when they had sort of identical personas. So, so I think that's important, sort of acknowledging that actually we don't give women as much credit as we do men. In terms of, you know, actual sort of steps that have been taken, you know, there is increased awareness that flexibility is, is important, and I know quite a lot of mums post.

Thing that actually practises have been really willing to look at flexible working and and fit them in for the hours they can make. So, you know, there are quite a few mums doing kind of between school hour roles, which just helps with the case load and, you know, surgical and consulting caseloads so it can work work for both.hs like, you know, increasing maternity pay.

I know CVS have recently increased the amount of parental pay they're giving. That's a step in the right direction. Again, it's just kind of the the start of the conversation, how do we increase the avail.

Ability of those sorts of initiatives. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of conversation happening. I would say, you know, there's a lot more to be done, but, but the early steps are there and then we're getting more evidence that, you know, these are things that do need addressing.

And I I suppose one way and and something that, you know, I dare say plays on a lot of the, you know the gents in the profession is, you know, we look at the various different arguments of the, you know, women in the profession and men in the profession and, you know, independent versus corporate and so on and so. Forth. But does there become a point where we actually just go, you know, the people in the profession, and, you know, should these things be just about the profession rather than the fact that you're a woman or the fact that you're a man in that profession, does that make sense?

That would be great, but that assumes there's no unconscious bias, which there is, and it also assumes that men and women are shouldering equal responsibility of the unpaid work at home, etc. Which largely is not the case. Yeah.

So yeah, it'd be great if we could get to that stage, but I don't, you know, I think it'll take a lot of work to get there. Absolutely. And, and obviously, you know, there's so many different opportunities for people across the profession and, you know, whether they choose to have a family, whether they don't choose to have a family, or, or whether they, you know, are are in a position where they're unfortunately unable to have a family.

But you know, what kind of, what bits of advice would you potentially give to people who are maybe planning to have that possibility in future as to you. Steps that they can take perhaps early in their career or, you know, whatever stage they're at to, to, to have a positive influence on how they then, you know, face parenthood and and family life as a vet, or indeed a vet nurse. You know, family planning is great, you know, if you sort of say, well, I want to get my certificate done first, or my study done first, become a partner in a practise before I, you know, consider having a family.

Obviously that quite often goes out of the window in terms of things happen unexpectedly or don't happen at all. But I think informing themselves. So if they sort of, you know, if they've always wanted to be a practise owner, then talk to other people who are practise owners and parents and say, you know, what are the learnings that that you can give me, what would you have done differently?

We're doing quite a lot of role model questionnaires for women in leadership positions, and I want to get more on women actually within practise on veterinary women to basically look at their learnings, what they did with their careers, what they wish they'd done differently, looking back, etc. So I think informing themselves is the number one. And then the number 2 is, by all means have a plan, but also, you know, constantly revisit that plan.

Is this still what I want, are these still my passions, be honest with yourself, be open with yourself, take the time to say, to, to reassess and to really think if that's still right for you and your family. And also, you know, particularly once family come along, be, be prepared for the unexpected. You know, we don't know how parenthood is going to affect us, and I know a lot of women.

Who sort of said, oh, you know, I was gonna go back after, you know, a month and get stuck in again, but actually I've stayed at home for 2 years and I absolutely love just being, you know, at home with the kids. So, obviously there's a lot of stuff around financials as well. So just kind of, you know, having a bit of a financial plan in place.

So, you know, realistically, how much time you can take off, etc. But then also looking at ways of, well, actually, if I really don't want to go back at that time, what can I do to sort of, you know, stay at home a bit longer with a. The kids cos you know that that is time you never get back, so.

Yeah, and obviously, you know, in that you touch on that greatly there really, obviously as vets and as vet nurses our skill set is massive and, and you know, not just applicable to, to clinical work and obviously your journey is one of a very clear guideline that you know, you can use those skills to open other avenues, but so obviously Liz, you know, you've you're doing great things in this sort of sphere of of being a a veterinary woman. . But as, as a vet, what kind of, you know, what skills and what sort of opportunities has that previous background purely in clinical practise, given you, to, you know, enable you to facilitate being a vet but also doing other things in order to support a family life?

Yeah, so I think, you know, as vets, we quite often, we, we've spent our whole lives kind of head down, slightly blinkered, just getting through vet school and, and, you know, the first few years of clinical practise. But you know, we sort of forget sometimes we can chew on ourselves into that as our as our main role. But actually taking a step back and thinking, well, what, what else am I interested in, you know, what other things, am I passionate about.

And then not being afraid to say, well, I'll, I'll give it a go because I think, you know, our training is great for helping us to be analytical, to look at evidence bases, to summarise them, to problem solve, to, you know, get on well with people. Good people skills. And, yeah, all of those are, are applicable to so many other areas.

And I would say, don't, don't limit yourself. You know, if there's something that you're passionate about, passionate about wanting to try, don't think, Oh, well, cause I'm a clinical vet, I can't do that. Just think, well, what's the skill set that is needed for that?

And quite often, you'll find that skills you use every day in practise match up with those quite well. So, yeah, we do have an. Incredibly broad skill set, everything from, you know, hand-eye coordination through to being able to analyse complex scientific, you know, theories.

So, you know, all of those are, are incredibly valuable and applicable to a lot of other areas. Yeah, and obviously, you know, one of the skills that you've got, and, and I dare say, you know, are very skilled with is this sort of massive empathy that you've got an ability to support other members of the profession. And obviously, you know, you're, you're a co-founder of Vet Mums and vet mums, especially, you know, I consider myself privileged as one of very few male members of the group, who've been invited in, from that side of things, and it's, it's one of them environments that has been quite regularly referred to as, you know, a really supportive online veterinary Facebook community.

And obviously there's a whole plethora of different Facebook groups around, at the moment, some of which have better reputations than others, but. You know, what sort of, what bits of ideas can you possibly suggest to, to people who are looking at, you know, developing a group and an initiative, to be able to sort of, you know, harbour this harmonious atmosphere that you seem to have have developed as a community there. I think the key to that is just allowing vulnerability.

So I think what people like about vet mums is they can come on and be vulnerable and not receive any form of judgement because, you know, when you are sleep deprive. You can barely get yourself dressed by the end of the day, you know, you're covered in baby sick, there are stinky nappies everywhere, you've run out of clean washing and you're a highly trained professional, you know, you feel very vulnerable. However, you know that everybody on that group has been in that same position, and that is tremendously levelling and carries with it a huge degree of empathy.

And I think in a lot of talk recently with a recently published sort of joint statement about hashtagbekind on social media, etc. There's a lot of talk about how we need to be more kind to each other, and I think what never happens and what we don't allow to happen on vet mums is kind of personal attack of any form, just making it about the individual and where there are differences of opinion. I mean, there's huge, there's some incredibly vehement opinions around, for example, breastfeeding.

And as soon as those conversations start to focus on, well, I'm right and you're wrong, we, we just stop that, you know, it's not about right and wrong, it's about empathy. Standing and support. I think, you know, Vett Moms is a kind of privileged group and that because everybody gets it, that, you know, we've all been in that, that situation that it's, you know, it sort of naturally lends itself to that.

I think people come at it with that in mind. So I would guess, you know, advice to other groups would just be to just maintain that awareness and acknowledgement that we've all had tough times in practise. And, you know, we've all been through the mill and to try and sort of keep that as a, just a, a general awareness over.

Riding the interactions within the group. And just that sort of mindfulness that the person posting might not be in a good place. And I think, yeah, that obviously, you know, very clearly and you know it is something that's so important and you know, it's very easy, isn't it, to jump on that bandwagon of sort of saying oh you know you write something and then you write hashtagbekind afterwards, but it's actually, you know, the, the actual tone of what you're writing and stuff like, you know, there is, it's easy to become a keyboard warrior, isn't it?

But I, I think, you know, it, it, there are always people on the other end of these and, you know, as, as. People rightly point out, we literally do not know what's going on on that side of things. I mean, you know, I've been, I've been home from work on, on multiple days where, you know, my, my wife's in tears, sobbing, but is, is, is actually really happy and now as a bloke, we don't have the hormonal highs and lows that that I would associate with, with certainly with the phase that she's at at the minute with breastfeeding.

So I mean I'm, I'm constantly worried as to what I've done wrong, er, for sure, and normally there is a reason that I've done something wrong, but, but yeah, obviously mental health is such a. A massive topic at this moment in time and your, you know, your involvement with with Wellvet as a co-founder there, I mean, you know, I had the privilege of coming along to the first weekend and it was just for me, especially, I just found it really great to stop and press pause for a weekend. But, you know, why, why is Wellvet so important to you and and you know, what are your, your hopes and aspirations for that to achieve?

Yeah, I just, just became increasingly frustrated and upset by the. Constant, you know, mental battles of, you know, friends and colleagues within the profession and just wanted to do something about it. And for me, you know, it's very much, it's not just about mental health, it's also about physical health and, you know, relationship health, it's, it's that sort of mind, body, soul.

They all obviously all feed back into mental health and just general overall wellbeing. So the idea around wellbet was to sort of create these sense of of events where people can come along and. Experience all sorts of different sport from, you know, very intense cycling and boot camps and CrossFit through to, you know, incredibly gentle meditation, yoga, alongside personal development workshops.

I think there's a bit of a misconception that wellbeing is for people that need it and. Well-beings for everybody. We're all on a scale of mental health, we're all on a scale of physical health, and, and the wellbeing is the kind of overall feeling that, that, you know, we get out of those things.

And if your wellbeing is great, then something comes along, such as a mental or physical ailment and your wellbeing all of a sudden isn't. Great. If you don't have the tools and the systems in place to be able to build up your own well-being, again, after those knocks, then you're in a much worse place for longer.

I sort of describe it as, you know, there's no point learning, you know, going out and buying a fire extinguisher and learning how to use it once your house is burning. You know, the time to, to go out and get a fire extinguisher and learn how to use it is when everything's good. Then when your house sets on fire, you can put the fire out really quickly.

So, you know, I, I really am passionate about encouraging everybody, even if they think I'm all right, Jack, to actually think, well, you know, what can I put in place to make sure that. If one day I wake up and things aren't great because I'm, you know, actually I'm, I've become a bit depressed or down about things or, you know, I'm injured or I'm ill, then they've actually got those, those things in place to help them deal with that and recover quicker. Definitely, well, I think Liz, you know, I've, I've monopolised the whole half hour of your time almost now, so I'm gonna wind up probably just the last question.

If you've got someone who's, you know, a vet mum or wanting to be a vet mum or, Wanting to be, you know, a vet dad or is already a vet dad, or or maybe struggling with stuff, what, what can they do to either, you know, help or what can they do to get involved with these things, or what can they do to be part of any of these er vast plethora of, of organisations that you're involved with. Yeah, so with the, the vet mums, actually on Veterinary Women, the website, free access website, there's a whole heap of resources on there, . There are some bits that are, you know, equally applicable to mums and dads, so plenty on there.

Obviously the vet mums Facebook group, not just for mums, we do welcome men in the profession as well, cos I think it does help to sort of raise that general understanding and awareness. Obviously we're, you know, we are pretty hot on, on moderating to make sure that the content is very empathetic, but, but very welcome to, you know, come and listen and and contribute where appropriate. Maybe not on the breastfeeding ones though.

The other thing with World Vets is we're hoping this year to bring a lot of more resources onto the World Vet website. At the moment, it, it's just the sort of events page. But, we've recently partnered with Nat Scroggy of this vet runs well, so myself and Ru Tipney, the three of us are going to hopefully develop Well that more as a website destination for mental and physical well-being resources.

So, and all of these things have associated social media feeds. Yeah, so just get in touch. Through veterinary women is the easiest way.

And yeah, look forward to carrying on with lots of other people to, to help and input because these things I've started, but it, it very much relies on, on other people to guide and help and support and contribute. Awesome. Well Liz, it's boss to chat to you.

Thanks for joining us, thanks for a lot of insight, and hopefully, you know, we start seeing the profession moving forward at an even greater rate of knots soon. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome.

Cheers. Thanks for having me, cheers then. Thanks for joining us for today's episode of Vet Chat.

If you've enjoyed listening to my dulcet scouse tones as I interview people much more intelligent than myself, then please do click follow and join us for future episodes.