Description

 
Gender balance in the veterinary profession has changed significantly over the last 40 years globally. According to the RCVS, women now account for almost 60% of registered practicing veterinarians and almost 80% of students enrolling in veterinary medicine are women.
However, despite the number of women in the sector, females still encounter a gender pay gap and are underrepresented in certain key and senior roles within the profession, including Directors and Partners. Additionally, a BVA survey conducted in 2017 found that women experience more explicit gender discrimination and are recognised and appreciated less frequently than male colleagues. The continuity of male-led practices, combined with the nature of work, does not allow for a sustainable shift towards more flexible working practices.
In addition to this, levels of stress and burnout are generally higher among women than men in the veterinary profession. The above facts suggest that relying on the female heavy pipeline will not be sufficient to address gender inequality, so what can we do to help?
Join our amazing diverse panel of women to hear engaging discussions on:
- Exploring the importance of allies, mentoring and career development strategies.
- How to encourage more conversations, feel more connected and nurture stronger communities.
- How to grow and champion ourselves as individuals in the industry and within our communities. Get perspectives on these and other timely topics from pioneering women in the field.


 
 
 
 
 

Transcription

Hello everybody. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the first ever webinar that we are running as part of a new initiative at the webinar Vett to support and empower women in the profession. My name's Catherine Bell from the webinar Vett, and tonight I am delighted to be joined by such an impressive and diverse panel of work who we will be hearing from shortly.
But first, just a few points for me on the session and how you can get involved. So we'll start shortly with a brief introduction from our panel who will be answering some questions that have already been sent to us from our community. And then the panel would love to take some questions from you too, which you can put into the Q&A box located at the bottom of the screen.
We have Dawn from the webinar vet team online offering tech support throughout the evening. And Dawn, if you could just pop a little message in the chat box, please, that would be great. And then whether you're joining us from the webinar vet site or live in the vet exhibition, you should hopefully see that here now.
Please do share any comments and questions as we go along. We're keen to keep the session very interactive, and we have a brilliant panel who are also excited to share their thoughts and experiences with you. So a little bit of background information on this session.
So after the webinar that we spend a lot of time at the start of the year looking at our vision and our values, and for the first time ever, we align our purposes and passions to the UN development goals. So. Some of the teams such as Andy Chadwick, our founder is extremely passionate about sustainability, and we're doing some great initiatives, in that space.
But one of the main passions in the organisation, particularly for myself and our leadership team, is gender equality. And given that the balance in, the profession has changed significantly over recent years, and almost 80% of students enrolling into veterinary medicine now are women. It felt like the perfect time for us to start these conversations.
So I've been part of the company for just under a decade, which makes me feel very old. I've felt takes from a team of 3 to 30 and 1 brand to 5 through breaking acquisitions, all of which supporting our vision to become a veterinary marketplace. So I'm very passionate about helping and supporting people, especially vets.
You know, around the world, whether that's by providing the best educational, you know, content that we can or just, you know, using our network to provide a supportive community, and to enable us to have the most confident. So with everything that we do, you know, we want to support people, their careers and their families. So we hope that this event, which is the first of several free events that we will be running around this topic.
Will be a good starting point, and we've also got a podcast series to come, as well as, launching a maternity and paternity leave membership at the webinar. So loads of good things to to follow. There will be a short survey at the end.
We would love your feedback on any of the ways that we can support women to raise awareness on, you know, topical gender issues and enable people to have these open and honest conversations. So I'm hopefully you heard all of that, OK, and I'm now gonna hand over to our panel to give us a brief introduction. Over to you.
Thank you. Hi, everybody. My name is Daniela dos Santos.
I am a small animal and exotic pet vet practising in the Southeast of England, and I'm also the senior vice president of the British Veterinary Association, having been president during the global pandemic, and only ever the 5th woman to hold the BVA presidential position. I'm delighted to be here today and hopefully we can have a really interesting conversation. Hi, my name is Issa Robson.
I'm a farm vet by trade. I'm currently a veterinary clinical teaching fellow at the University of Surrey, and I'm also a co-founder of the British Veterinary Ethnicity and Diversity Society. And my name's Katie Ford.
I'm a vet. I'm a speaker, I'm also a coach. I originally worked in small animal practise but now run my own business helping vets and vet nurses move through impostor syndrome and empowering them with confidence and self value.
Hi, everyone. My name is City Gardner. I'm a swine mill vet.
I've been trained in mixed and large as well, but at the moment, I do mainly, wellness coaching and mentorship, just to help people, basically dealing with burnout, and I can't wait for a conversation. Hi, I'm Nat S Groggy. I'm a small animal locum vet, but I also spend, a lot of my time doing non-clinical work, so I also work for, veterinary human factors company Vettled.
And the rest of the time I spend dedicated to my interest in wellbeing across the veterinary profession, this includes as a co-director for Well Vet and also as a co-founder of the Vet Minds Group, which supports vet new professionals sort of experienced miscarriage, infertility, neonatal death and stillbirth. So I've got a particular passion for supporting, women in the veterinary profession, particularly through the whole fertility journey and raising awareness of the realities of this. Wonderful.
That's great. Thank you. OK, let's get started.
So first question that we have in, from our community is for you now, please. So it's asking, have you used mentors at all to excel in your career? So I think it's a really, really great question.
The short answer is absolutely yes. So mentors and allies have had a huge influence on my career and I think my life in general. But I think sort of maybe the best way to answer this question is sort of give a little bit of my story as to how I found those people because it's really easy to say.
Yeah, find yourself a mentor or an ally. I think we'd all love a horde of allies living upstairs whenever we need a good pep talk. I've always fantasised about having, David Attenborough in the, in the attic and Stephen Fry and and all sorts of amazing people that I could draw on, but actually finding these people, and making connections is a little bit of a different story.
So I guess to give a little bit of a background on kind of, My career I had a very standard start. I graduated in 2016, went straight out into small animal, GP practise, and probably had a similar experience to other young vets that there was, quite a shortage of experienced staff, quite high staff turnover. So whilst I had some clinical support, and mentorship, I'd say it was reasonably limited.
And I don't know if this would resonate with anyone listening, but I. Really thought that when I went out into the world as a fully fledged vet that I'd be instantly completely surrounded by loads of like-minded people and that I would have, found my tribe. And I think for some people that is the case, depending on what practise you go into and you might land in a practise and have an amazing mentor right there.
But for many of us that isn't the case, particularly, I can only imagine for. The most latest cohort going out, under lockdown conditions and with the particular staff shortages that we're experiencing at the moment. So at this point we sort of 2 years in, I was feeling quite isolated in my life in veterinary practise, I didn't.
Particularly feel part of the profession, and I wouldn't have said. I had a lot of mentors allies, so. I guess the first thing I'd like to say is, I looked up some figures, so I don't know how correct these are, but I think that there are approximately 25,000 veterinary surgeons on the register and 15,000, RVMs.
So if you don't find your mentor or your ally in the practise that you happen to be in, actually this isn't a huge surprise statistically, but out of all of those, I think, near enough 30,000, vets and RVMs, not including all of the amazing practise managers, customer service, everyone else that's involved in the whole veterinary team, and obviously people outside the veterinary team, there's definitely gonna be, a load of people that are able to support you and share your interests. So where do you start? I think I would say have a think about your passions, your values, and what makes you, you, and what you'd like your tribe to look like.
And I think this can be really, really eclectic. Obviously it can be very clinical if you're looking to pursue, a certain path, whether that's a residency or, or whatever that looks like for you and, there are people at universities or within roles that maybe you can see yourself doing in the future that you can reach out to. For me, it was quite eclectic, so I knew that I was interested in well-being.
I liked running and staying active, although that didn't seem particularly relevant at the time, but now it's quite a big part of my career. And I also suffered a miscarriage, which is a tribe that none of us want to join, but actually many of us will do. So it's a bigger tribe than you might think, and I quite like social media.
So that was kind of my areas. They're quite broad. I attended the World Bet weekend, so going to events is a really good thing.
I was really nervous. It was absolutely jam-packed full of like-minded people, and that's for me, where I met my biggest mentors, and fast forward a few years, I've now joined that company. And the people that I met there encouraged me to do the things I was interested in, so I started writing about running and exercise, and I found a whole tribe of people that were interested in the same things that I was, but also shared that, that veterinary connection as well.
. So I think the biggest gift that these people gave me, which I hope that I can impart here, is how full our profession is of people who will share interest with you, but also are desperate for you to reach out to them, and it can be really scary. But people love people reaching out to them. And I think lockdown, although it's been a period of isolation, it's totally rewritten the rules on how to connect with people, and it's a time when it's actually really easy to do that because you've got the internet, drop them an email, send them a message.
It's quite easy and the worst thing that can happen is that they don't get back to you. So I'd really encourage people to be really brave and actually extend the challenge to everyone listening, . Choose somebody that you admire or that you're interested in and send them a message this week.
See what happens, see if they get back to you and see what connections you can make. Wonderful. That's great now.
Thank you. Any other comments from the panel? Anything anybody you'd like to add?
Hi, I can't agree more with you. I mean, that was lovely. Thanks, Nat.
I think the big thing is understanding that. When you feel like, I think all of us have at some stage in our career, like, nobody understands how I'm feeling. You feel you're, you know, you just feel alone.
And sometimes you wish that you were working with somebody who was in the same class as you or the same rotation. You just want to feel like that again, like all of you in the same boat. And it just sometimes doesn't happen as quickly as you'd like.
So if you can Find people, even virtually, who can, you can share that with. It makes such a difference. So I agree with you.
Definitely reach out if there's anybody you think, I'd love to speak to her, you know, definitely do it. And even if they don't respond immediately because you WhatsApped them or sent them a message, you, I promise you they'll get back to you if they're supposed to. So, definitely.
Wonderful. That's great. Thank you.
Brilliant. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I always kind of got told, you know, just adapt as many mentors as possible, you know, the more people that you're speaking to, you know, the better conversations and insights that you're gonna get, and, you know, don't, you don't always have to kind of position it as it's like a mental situation, you know, if you're just kind of asking people for advice, it implies a lot less commitment from people, so they're possibly more likely to agree to it, so.
Yeah, I think I totally agree. That's wonderful. Thank you.
OK, so next up for is that we've got a question, for you, please. So what career development strategies have you used and what tips would you give our audience, please? OK, so.
I, I think that some of the strategies work for me, won't necessarily work for everybody, but I can definitely tell you some of the strategies that didn't work. So. Don't ever work for anybody or don't work for a line manager that you wouldn't be prepared to cook or feed.
Because if you're not prepared to cook them a meal, then you shouldn't be prepared to put your career, time, energy into helping their business or making them look good. It's not a career ladder, so staying in the same place, trying to work your way up, particularly if, people can't see you or can't see the value of you or your potential. And they're not prepared to grow you, then don't stay in the same place.
So it's not a career ladder, it's actually a career jungle gym. Be prepared to move sideways, be prepared to move in. Unexpected career, positions, yeah, it's a really great way to extend yourself and push yourself out of, your comfort zone.
And The Yeah, I think, don't try and mimic somebody that you aren't, so I'm never going to be a white bloke. So I did spend quite a lot of my career as an early career as a farm vet trying to mimic the style and the approach of my male colleagues. And that didn't really work for me.
I would say that once I embraced who I was and how I was, I became a really excellent farm vet. So, we have more role models, I think in farm now, more women in farm, so that you can find a style that, yeah, suit suits you. But yeah, please don't, don't try and be somebody that you're not, it's always better if you try and be yourself.
And then I think the other thing would be that I have. Definitely, as I've, as I've gone on in my career, you know, I was, I'm very conscious that I had this idea that if I worked hard enough and if I put my head down and if I didn't complain and if I've got on with things, and that that would be the way that I could, you know, kind of make it. And actually I, I don't, I think now that I've looked around and gone, well, actually, you know, the things that I'm having to come up against and the barriers that I'm having to face are not fair, and I'm going to talk about them.
I feel like I've actually got further, so I would be conscious of trying to move away from a very individualistic kind of careerist strategy. And focus energy on kind of like building like solidarity, with other women, and to not focus on if I can get to the top, then that means there, there are no barriers, but maybe focusing on some of the barriers that are at the bottom, and improving things for everybody as we work our way up. Yeah, and yeah, that it's, it's OK to, yeah, to be, to be different, basically, and that you don't need to be, as in farm, we're always asked, you know, kind of like, are you strong enough?
And it's like, I would just like to reiterate, if anybody is thinking about a Korean farm, we are strong enough, so it's fine, and that there are many ways to be a farm vet but. Don't require you being a 6 ft rugby player. So yeah.
I don't know whether anybody else has anything to add. Yeah, with you, Daniela, please. Yeah, so .
Just echoing a lot of what Isa said, I, I didn't have a career strategy or a career plan. I still don't. The one thing I realised early on is that actually, all you need to be is be authentic and know what matters to you, right?
We kind of leave vet school with this focus on clinical. Like, you have to be the best clinically. You have to being a GP isn't enough, being a certificate holder isn't enough.
It's not enough unless you're a resident. And actually, it's total nonsense. Whatever's enough for you is enough, right?
And for me, being a GP vet was enough. But what I quickly learned is that what matters is that you work in an environment that suits you, that suits who you are. And there is no shame in being somewhere and going, Do you know what, I tried this, and it just didn't work for me.
So that's one thing. I think we need to lose the focus on, as it says, a career ladder or a career strategy. It just, it's just about being authentically yourself.
I didn't have the foggiest idea that I would end up where I ended up. And I only ended up here, which I'll touch on later. I only ended up here partly because of luck and partly because I didn't have a fixed vision.
So I didn't leave vet school going, I have to achieve this, and I have to get there. And that's what I want to do, because sometimes we get tunnel vision. I just left at school and went, Oh, that looks interesting.
Let's try that. And that over there looks like it could be interesting. And, and I haven't ended up anywhere where I thought I would end up.
But my goodness me, if I had a, a really fulfilling career to date. So, just don't feel like you need to fall into a box and don't feel like you have to stay somewhere just because your CB says you should be somewhere for over 2 years. It's nonsense.
Just make sure you're happy. Brilliant. That's great.
Thank you. And there's a lovely, comment in the chat box for you. It says, thank you, Isa, that's literally the first time anyone has said that out loud.
So that's lovely. OK, Brill, Wonderful. So, we've had a question that's come in for yourself, Katie, from our, somebody in our community.
So it's around, self-promotion. Self-promotion or acting as your own career champion can sometimes feel quite uncomfortable for some people. Do you have any tips for our audience to help to overcome this?
Absolutely. And again, that's such a good question. I think the first thing is, when we say like self promotion, the first thing that can sometimes come to mind is, oh, do they mean like creating a social media profile or creating a marketing campaign around me, and we, we really don't mean that so much.
We mean more about backing ourselves and knowing what's important to us and very much reflecting and echoing back what Isa and Daniella have just said as well. Actually being authentic and being you and yes, I get that that can feel really uncomfortable at first because we're not actually taught to do that. A lot of the time we're given a lot of stereotypes, we're given ideas that we should have it all figured out and it should be next thing, next thing, next thing, a little bit like in the way that we did GCSEs and then we did A levels and then we did a degree and we should do this and we should do that, but.
I'd say 3 things essentially, aside from just acknowledging that yes, this can feel a bit uncomfortable and it can feel scary, and that is absolutely normal, but it's not a point to step back. This might be a point where maybe feeling like a little bit of an imposter or a fraud comes out, or we think, oh, you know what, I should be staying here 2 years, like Daniella said. It's looking at the three things.
The first thing that I'd say on there would be looking at our self value and remembering that we are all valuable as people, not because of our job titles. And it's easy for us to start thinking, oh my goodness, maybe I should be going and doing this and that and the other, but actually, remembering that you are valuable enough to have the conversations, thinking about us realising that a lot of those thoughts that we've got are due to stereotypes that we Being given. And actually, the fact that you're the first woman to do this role or you don't see many people like you where, wherever you want to progress to, doesn't mean that you won't be just as good once you get there.
It's just remembering that sometimes those stereotypes pop up for us and almost restrict us, but just remembering we don't have to believe everything that we think. So that'd be the, the first thing, just remembering to value ourselves. The second thing that I say is for us to get some clarity, and that's not clarity in terms of having a 10 year career plan and where we want to be next.
It's actually clarity is just thinking about, OK, if I'm going to advocate myself and I'm gonna actually back myself in this career, what is important to me, what are my values, what are my strengths? What is it that gives me energy? What is it that drains me of energy?
What's really important to me at this moment and setting some boundaries and things around that and daring to speak up and having the conversations around those things that are actually important to us once we get that clarity and The third thing, again, we've touched on this already is having mentors, having allies that are going to be there that first of all, we can look to for inspiration to say, hey, look, that's possible, just like Isa shared in the farm space. Look, it's, it's possible to be yourself and excel. You don't have to try and fit into a mould of what we've been taught we should be like, .
And the second thing is, sometimes they can just hold a mirror back up to us and say, hey, look, you, you can totally do this. So I'd say those three things first of all, work on our self value, which we've been taught all the reasons why we're not good enough, and just remembering we are and we're worthy of the conversations. And the second thing absolutely would be a little bit of clarity on what's important to you.
You and your authentic self, coaches can help with that. You can do exercises yourself, just journaling, think about it, listen to yourself rather than all those shoulds, musts and maybes. And, and the third one would be mentorship.
And from a personal standpoint, years back, I saw a quote saying, Don't be the one that says no to yourself. And that was a big thing for me of saying, you know what, I don't want to self-reject from any of these roles, and that's something we've been taught to do, but actually doesn't help us moving towards what's really important to us. And again, that comes back to that it being a jungle gym rather than a ladder and saying, look, actually, this is important to me.
I am important to you. I'm gonna reach out. I'm gonna have the conversations.
It's It's not being bolshy, it's not us being overconfident. We still have to sit and see the other side of the table when we're having these conversations and realising, yeah, it might be uncomfortable, but it'll be really worth it once you've got that clarity and you remember, you are valuable. And yeah, let's step past those stereotypes and just say, there is nothing that would stop me being just as good in this role.
But as long as it's important to you, so that would be my advice in terms of us looking at advocating yourself and backing yourself. Brilliant. That's lovely, Katie.
Thank you. I wouldn't agree anymore. Any, any other comments around that area from our, our panel?
OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think practise, practise is a really good one. Like there's, it feels when culturally you're kind of brought up to be modest, that actually just talking about what cool things you've done, seems like you're bragging, but I, I would, . I would possibly channel what, you know, what advice would you give somebody else, and what would you, if you were somebody else looking at the achievements that you've done, would, would you be talking about them?
And would you be going like, this is an amazing thing, I carved this cat with, you know, etc. Etc. And I think, I think that is practise, and I think the generally the older that I've got, the more easily I find it is to talk about the cool stuff that I do.
I, I still don't do it enough. But I, I do it when I need to, and, that is, that, that's definitely, you have to practise it because it becomes much less uncomfortable. So when you want to drop the amazing thing that you're doing, then you, you can, you can do that and you can feel not uncomfortable about it.
Brilliant, thank you, do you got anything to add there see your hand up. Yeah, I just wanted to say that, pretty much what I was saying. But what I say to some of the people I work with is celebrate your wins.
So celebrate them. And, it's simple in practise when people bring you a thank you card or a bunch of flowers or box of chocolates, we tend to just kind of take it in our stride and almost immediately forget about it. Because the complaint is still lingering from 2 weeks ago.
But celebrate your wins, guys. When people say really nice things to you, just be able to think about it and say, Do you know what? I did really well there.
If you've had a really difficult space, stop and say, that was hard. Yes, and actually do the actions. Go like that.
Yes, it makes you feel amazing. So definitely celebrate your wins. Lovely, thank you.
Yeah, it's so busy, isn't it in day to day life that it's so easy to forget to celebrate your wins, but yeah, that's, that's really good advice. Thank you. OK, wonderful.
So Daniella, we're gonna come over to you next, please. So a question around, you know, why do you think there is a weight gap between men and women in the profession and how can it be eliminated? Thanks.
So, you'll see there's quite a few links here between what's just said and and why we've got the wage gap in the profession. So I broadly say that there are two issues going on here. And it's worth saying that everything we're about to say is not exclusive to the veterinary profession.
So I know we like to think that we're special, right? But we're not. The problems we face, other sectors face, and it's all for the same reason.
So broadly speaking, to, to camps, stereotypes and bias, which we've already had, and also, we just don't help ourselves. We don't champion ourselves. And, and, and I think They're both of them come into play.
So, if we look at stereotypes and bias, for example, we know, so the BVA did the Mark and Elizabeth study, where, when all else was equal, a male vet was seen as more capable, was seen as more like it was more likely to be seen as a good source. Of information, more likely to be promoted and would be paid more, right? Everything else being equal.
And ultimately, that happens because of biases. And I'm I'm going to use the word patriarchy. I don't like using it, but ultimately, that is why, right?
Because the society, we champion. The male vision as strong, as powerful as leaders, right? And subconsciously, we keep doing that.
And this isn't, I want to be crystal clear, this isn't a man versus woman thing, right? A man and a woman are equally likely to discriminate or be biassed against a woman. And what the study found that you were more likely to, to be subconsciously biassed against a woman if you didn't think that they face discrimination in the first place, right?
So, there's that aspect. And, you know, it, it If we just think about why, so recently, I had a 45 minute conversation with a senior male member of our profession, who told me that there weren't more women in positions of leadership, because our hormones meant we weren't that driven, right? 45 minutes from a male vet telling me this.
Despite the fact I put out all the information to them, the fact that, you know, the, the reason there are less female CEOs is because, Childbearing, child caring or caring responsibilities falls disproportionately on women. Why? Because society says that man needs, the man needs to earn more money and the woman needs to stay at home, right?
So it's just this whole societal structure that has caused it. And It's, it's a real challenge because it's not just our profession, right? It's a wider problem.
But subconsciously, I started to realise it myself when I first started to think about these things. And I realised that I had been guilty and I worked in a multi-vet practise. And I used to go to the one man to ask for advice, instead of to the loads of other women, right?
So that's even me who's aware of this situation. And only a couple of weeks ago, I was at work, you know, I, I have special interest in special areas. And I watched a, a, a female vet go and ask a male vet for advice when I'm standing there on a subject he despised.
And now, that is all subconscious, right? We all do it. We just need to be a bit more aware of it.
And I think, interestingly, you know, if we just listen to some of the conversations we've actually had, some of the role models that have come up, have been primarily men. So it, we just perpetuate this constantly, right? So we give more value to men.
We see their time as more valuable. We see them as more competent. So, here you go, have some more money, right?
So, that's, that's the first thing. And our profession proves that majority is not the same as equality. If you look at senior positions in our profession, they are majority male.
Things are changing, but they're changing slowly. We're also a feminine profession, feminine, I say that in that way, but actually, the problem with that is that it's seen as a more caring profession, right? Therefore, we inadvertently get wage deflation, rather than if you were working in a more technical, professionals, one that was seen as more technical.
So, that is a factor too. Also, we just don't champion ourselves. So, we're our own worst enemy, right?
We're less likely to ask for a pay rise. We're likely to ask for flexible working, because we just don't want to be the one that causes trouble. We're less likely to, be confident enough to apply for a job when we don't meet every single criteria, right?
A man is more likely to apply for a job, even if he doesn't meet all the criteria, because he's more confident to put himself forward and to say, Yep, I'm capable of this. Whereas us women, we kind of go, Oh, no, but I can't do that. So, I'm just not even gonna try.
And for, you know, an example, I'm only BVA president because I was encouraged to be, to, to apply by someone else, right? I read the job spec. It said they wanted someone in small animal exotic or equine practise.
I ticked two of those boxes. Wanted someone with a welfare background. I chaired the ethics and welfare panel.
Tick that box. Someone with political and policy knowledge. I sat on BVA's policy committee and on council.
I ticked that box. He even said, we welcome applications for women. And I was going to nominate a man.
I was gonna nominate a man for that position until someone, my partner, who has nothing to do with the vet profession, said, Daniella, what are you doing? That's you on paper. And despite the fact it was me on paper, I was championing a bloke to take the job.
So. We work in a in a society where the structures ultimately put men as more capable, when that's not necessarily the case. It gives them more value within the workplace.
It takes away value from, from what women do. And we don't help ourselves either. So, your question about how do we, how do we get over this?
First of all, more transparent pay structures, more transparent hiring processes. It's as simple as that, right? If you want to eliminate bias, it's the only way you're going to do it.
And I'm gonna plug BVA's good workplace, but there's a whole chapter on how you do that, and how you do it properly. But also, champion each other and champion yourselves. Be brave to go and say, actually, I've done all of this.
I think I deserve a pay rise. And it doesn't just have to be that you put more money into the practise. You may be an awesome mentor for a new graduate, for example.
You might be the one that does a consulting all day and Although the surgeon will get more money, if you look at how how the takings go, actually, if you weren't sitting there doing that consult, the surgeon wouldn't get the, wouldn't get the, the money in for the practise either. And equally, we need to look out for each other. We need to make sure that we're not doing these biassed things where we're only going to mend for advice.
So yeah, I'm gonna show up now. Thank you. That was great.
And you're in 5 minutes, so well done. Yeah. Lovely.
Any other, comments around around that from the panel before we move on? Yeah, thanks to you, Casey. I just add to that as well.
I mean, certainly it's amazing to hear Daniela speaking so passionately and educating us even further on this, but I'd really encourage everyone, there's a fantastic article on the BVA website talking just about the study that Daniela was talking about, and I'll be honest, I am no expert on this topic. I'm still learning, and it was real news to me just to see that quite often the most impactful people in these processes were the ones that believed that this didn't exist anymore. So I think the more we can all Educate ourselves and learn about this.
And like Danielle said, be aware of these unconscious biases that we have. Even just planting that seed of this conversation and being on this call this evening might make you just think, oh, you know what, actually, yeah, I did that. And without judgement of ourselves, but of an awareness raiser as well.
So thank you, Daniella. I just, I'm sure someone can pop in the chat that link, to the BBA article as well, or I'll find it because it's a really good one. Oh, brilliant, thank you.
And we'll definitely put that on the blog after as well so people can go back and find out if they, if they need it. OK, is there, yeah. I just, I just wanted to, talk about the transparency, so transparent recruiting processes that are standardised, and, you know, I, I do talk about how much I'm paid, because I think it's really helpful.
I know that, you know, some of the veterinary organisations are big enough now that they have to publish their, their gender pay gap, and, and just a bit about kind of like what that represents will always, it's a very big metric. So you take all of the, everybody's wage and you work out what the median is for women and what the median is for men or the mean. And yeah, and obviously if there are more men in higher paid jobs at the top, you're gonna have a big disparity because women generally tend to be at the lower paid jobs at the bottom.
So when we talk about, gender pay gap, I would really, strongly advocate in your businesses paying a living wage. So that means making sure that our nurses and support staff have got, enough money that they can, live on and raise families with. And, yeah, as well as worrying about the career progressions that we get these women in positions of leadership who hopefully enact that kind of change, within the organisations, but yeah, it's, yeah, a huge topic, so.
I put my hand down now. Wonderful. Thank you, Danielle.
Yeah, yeah. Just, just to, to say, please don't fall into the trap that just because there is a woman as your clinical director on a position of leadership or whatever, that everything is OK, because it's not. Because what we end up hearing, and I, I'm just gonna speak a bit further out, when we have these discussions with With people who just don't see the problem, who think it's just not an issue.
The one thing that always comes back is like, but you a BVA president, and there's another female BVA president next year, or there's a 3, female officers at the RCBS. That is all great. But in the context of where we are as as a demographic, the profession, actually, it's appalling that that's all we've got.
And people, you know, in wider society, when you start speaking about how many men there are in senior positions or positions of leadership, they will go. But look, we had a female prime minister recently, or that company over there has a female CEO. Well, great, but what about all the people underneath?
So we mustn't fall into the trap that just because you see a woman in position of leadership, that it's all OK. Often it asks it acts as a smokescreen. Brilliant.
Wonderful. Thank you. We need to move on if that's OK.
See the next one's, for you, please, such an important question. What can we do to prevent and and support those suffering from burnout? Hi, guys.
I think this is such an important question because I think a lot of people started experiencing, kind of symptoms of burnout. But I think as vets and as moms, as wives, sisters, partners, all of us experienced it in a very different way. And I mean, we've heard the usual advice, you know, take a break, relax, practise mindfulness, meditate, you know, go for a run, exercise.
Because, you know, dry green smoothies, whatever it is. And, you know, it all goes well until, you know, you open the fridge and it's empty, and somebody hasn't filled up the toilet roll again, and everything is just going wrong because everything kind of depends on you to get it done. OK?
And even with the most supportive partner and the most supportive kids, everything still kind of depends on you to get a lot of stuff done. I just I think sometimes people don't recognise what these symptoms are like. And by working on recognising it, it is such an important thing.
So, you know, without going into serious details, it's just emotional and physical exhaustion is one of the signs. Feeling really cynical and depersonalised is the second one. And the third one is just this reduced sense of accomplishment.
And that kind of looks like, I don't think what I do matters. It's these kinds of thoughts that come in, or I really don't care what happens to Mrs. So and So's dog.
She's just so grumpy. These are actually little symptoms of cynicism creeping into our little thought processes. So I think it's such an important idea.
We've heard it all before. Put your own oxygen mask first before assisting anybody else. OK?
It's so, so important that you do this, because if you don't actually fill your own cup, you cannot help and fill other people's cups. You've got to really get that into perspective. So I feel that it's such an important to have a process by way.
That you can follow certain steps, recognising that you're actually potentially suffering from burnout, but also recognising it in other people. So instead of getting frustrated with them or impatient, you can actually be really compassionate and think, hang on, there might be something going on here. And there are other things that we can do within the practise and supporting each other.
We can really You know, not be the person who's adding to it by saying, you know, she's not pulling her weight. Just thinking, hang on, she might need a little bit of support. So we just need to reset our mindset with things like that, and definitely start building some sort of resilience and reverse any of the damage that we have inadvertently.
Because, just by doing what Daniella was saying, is adding and kind of picking away at our own self-worth with regards to constantly going to your male colleagues and things like that. Those things will all contribute to burnout. So just be aware that burnout can be a gateway illness, OK?
So it just opens the doors to other things. And we just need to be constantly aware of that. And You know, I just want to finish off by saying, just make sure that you do practise self-care, and it's such a silly simple thing, but look after yourself before you start looking after absolutely everything and everybody else around you.
OK. Wonderful Cie. Thank you.
Any of the tips or comments from there on that on those points. Yeah, PC. That was a, a brilliant answer and so well put as well.
Thank you. Thank you for that. I was just going to add in as well, this is just from my own experience, and it seems like a really silly reminder to add, but you can still burn out doing what you love.
And I think that's something where we think, oh well, I'm fueled by passion, you know, I, I love this every day and I'm gonna turn up and I'm gonna do it. But actually still sometimes that can actually drive you even more to burn out because you think, oh, you know what, I love this. I'll, I'll take a little break later.
I'll do this later. I'll do this. And then actually, Slowly that cynicism does weave its way in, and you don't spot it until further down the line.
So that would be one of my own reflections from running my own business, even still in the vet space would be, just remember you can still burn out doing what you love, so that self-care is so important like you've said. Yeah, that's, that's so true. I think a lot of priorities people have that 3 in a row.
So you've got current priorities that are like, work, for instance, family and friends, and then personal care. And we really need to flip that around and you have personal care as your top priority, and then family and friends, and then work. And I really think we need, if that's the only thing you take away from this, we've got to just swap that around.
And as you say, just cause you're passionate about something and you love it dearly, it doesn't mean it can't burn you out. Absolutely, wouldn't agree more. OK, lovely, thank you very much for that.
OK, so we've, we've got a couple of questions that have come through which we'll just move on to now. So the first one we've had is from Sam, and it's what changes are needed within the profession to improve the mental health of our vet. Any thoughts on that one.
Yeah, on your left, please. I, I don't think there's a straightforward answer there. I, I don't think that it would be accurate to say it's, it's this or that.
I think there are multiple factors going on here. And I think we've touched on a lot of them. I think my summary thought would be that we need workplaces that are fair and inclusive and where you can be yourself.
Because if you get all of that right, then you've done a bulk, the bulk of it. We know from BVA's research that the reason, People stay is because they feel valued, because they feel like they're fit in. And if you get those two right, then you're halfway there.
I have to say it's interesting, what Katie was saying, that you can still burn out, doing things you love. Oh, I know that. What I, but what I would say to add to that is, we also need to learn to say no.
We need to learn to say no. I need to go and have my lunch. No, I'm really sorry.
I can't stay late tonight. I need to go home because, you know, we, we all talk about the excuses of emergencies, etc. Etc.
How often is it a genuine, genuine emergency? It's not. So yeah, that's just my thought on that.
Brilliant, thank you. And that, yeah, maybe you, please. Yeah, I definitely wanted to echo what Daniella was saying.
I think, working towards a just culture within our, our workplaces is a huge factor for, When we approach it not from an individual point of view, I think it's just it's a really small thing that I wanted to add was, particularly to any leaders listening, and of course we're all leaders in our own way and practises, but when we have people in, what are perceived as senior roles. When those people model self-care behaviours like drawing boundaries, saying no, taking their lunch breaks, leaving on time, talking openly about how they're feeling, that is so, so powerful, for everyone else in the workplace, but particularly for younger members of the profession. So if you're one of those people listening, have a think about the behaviours that you're modelling to, to your team and the people around you, .
But it's really, really powerful to see stuff like that and sort of, I guess that's speaking as, as a young vet myself, yeah, seeing people. Modelling that behaviour makes me realise that that it's OK and I'm in a a culture where that is OK and it's a priority. Great, thanks Ma.
Absolutely. Hands are flying up now, CDO with you please. Yeah, just a small, comment is, I think we all need to run our own race, like we've been saying.
But also, guys, ask for help. OK, we need to ask for help. And, for any leaders who are listening, please, the client isn't always right.
So for heaven's sake, please protect your team. OK. The client is not always right, and I don't think it's a good way for us to keep going forward, because this is where a lot of Feeling disconnected, where the values between you and your team members start kind of straying from each other.
Absolutely brilliant, thank you. And we've had a comment in the chat box from Gillian, she says, thinking about my own experience, I wonder if partly it's about communication style type. So men often give certainty whether real or not, and women give maybe slash it, whether real or not.
People rightly or wrongly, do gravitate towards certainty. We've got another few comments from people with, links to the article that Katie discussed earlier. So thank you, Jane, for that.
That's great. We'll make sure that goes up on the website. We have another question.
The veterinary profession is heavily dominated by men. Do we also need to ask where are the men? Daniela, yeah, please.
Sorry. One way to get me talking is if you ask the question, where are the men? It is the wrong question to be asking.
It's as simple as that. Right? The question you should be asking are, where are the working class boys or young men, right?
Because what's happening if you look at the educational barriers and why people do or don't come into STEM subjects, including veterinary medicine, is because of the barriers they face. And the reality is that middle class or Upperclassmen are choosing to do something else. So, it's not that they can't get into vet school, it's that they're choosing to do something else.
For whatever reason. It could be, as I alluded to earlier, veterinary medicine is seen as a feminine and caring profession, and therefore, because the stereotype is men need to be stronger and, and better leaders. They choose to do something else.
It could be because they could earn more somewhere else. But working class boys, they don't have role models. They have numerous societal and educational barriers.
So the question is not where are the men, it's where are the working class boys? And that question becomes so much more uncomfortable for people to answer, but that is the question we should be asking. And then if you extrapolate it, we should be asking whether we have socioeconomic diversity in our profession.
OK, thank you. We have another question here. Have you ever encountered gender discrimination in the workplace?
And how did you handle this situation? OK, yeah, Amella, please. Thank you.
So, interestingly, I don't know if I, experienced it as a vet in practise, because the reality is we don't talk about our pay. I don't know what's been offered, etc. Etc.
But I can tell you that I am, I experienced it as a BVA officer. I once went to an event where, someone sat down and said to me, when you've, finished pretending to do this job, you can go back to modelling. And as quick as a flash, a man on the other side of the table then stood up and said, If more women looked like you, I'd come to these things more often, right?
And that was me in a position of power that men still felt that they were able to say these sorts of things. I've also had discrimination come from senior female members of the profession, right? So it's not, as I said at the beginning, it's not just about the men.
So if I could Take one thing away from this, if you do happen to end up being a woman in a position of leadership of some description, do not pull the ladder up behind you. Keep the ladder down, help the next people up, but the next woman up, because we're never gonna change anything unless we support each other. And if you're a man in a position of leadership, try and extend the ladder more than just straight down to the next man.
Thank you. Is that Yeah, so I think it's a really important question to ask and it's a really important question to answer. So yes, I have experienced gender discrimination.
Most recently, a farmer absolutely outraged that they'd be sending a woman to do some dehorning and castrations. I was probably the fastest dehorner and castrator in the practise, but, you know, they didn't want me because I was female. And the response of the practise was to politely say, we'll send you a male vet, but we'll also be sacking you.
So, so it's often it's not about the client doing the discrimination, it's how your team responds to it, and I think sacking a client is a very legitimate and positive step that you can do to protect the well-being of your staff. I think we do need to talk about it because there is, you know, I, I talk with my students about being judged, how competent you are immediately as you set foot on the farm, whether or not, you know, I've got, nearly 15 years' worth of experience, but I will still be judged as being, as being less competent than than my peers or even as a student that I'm bringing onto the farm with me, and And I think that if you internalise those messages and you think that the, the, the problem is you, not that people are making a biassed assumption about your competency, then, that can be really difficult and, and actually acknowledging that that's something that happens that, it's quite, it's quite a normal. Thing that happens when, you know, you set foot on a farm that a farmer might assume that you are less capable of calving their cow.
And, yeah, and that, that needs, that is, that's something that needs to be mitigated, and you need to have strategies to support your staff who will be facing that. And you need to be aware that that is something that they will face, . Yeah, it, it needs, it needs to be talked about much more so that it, it's, it's a normal part of the conversation so that people aren't internalising and the fact that, you know, and the problem is them and the problem is not them, it's society, it's the person with the bias.
Yeah, thanks. Thank you. And Casey, thank you.
Thank you. And it's so interesting to hear everyone's answers so far. I, I'd say two things, one of them, without giving too many details, I way back was in the position where I was in the same role as a man doing all the same responsibilities of being qualified longer and so on and so forth, and realised that he was being paid more than I was.
But this is exactly why we're having the conversations because I didn't dare to say anything about it. I just quietly got on with it, and that was years ago. I never felt in a position where I was empowered or felt like I should say something about it.
And that's why it's so important for us being on this call and talking about these topics. And the second thing is, I remember being asked the question and that Daniela so eloquently answered before of Why are there so many more women applying to vet school back when I did my vet school interviews, this was 15 years ago. So it just shows us how important it is for us to actually educate and talk about these things.
And like Daniella said, I, I feel like that's such a powerful shift when you realise that where There are, like we say, the, the working class men, and I had no idea what to answer at that point. I was like, I don't know, are women seen as being more caring. And that, I just find it interesting that that's a conversation from like 15 years ago, which just adds more weight to the importance of us actually having these discussions.
Absolutely, thanks, Katie. CDO2. Hi.
Yeah, I think the whole issue with, have you been discriminated against? Unfortunately, guys, on this panel, you're gonna hear a sounding yes from almost all of us. I mean, my particular scenario was also on a farm, and, you arrived down in that thinking, why have you sent me this?
I was, this is 18 years ago, 18 years ago. And, They spent the rest of the time verbally abusing me while I was trying to do the work. I tried to ring my, person who was supposed to be assisting me, and he said, just get on with it.
Tough. This is, this is the job, get on with it. So, I just had to find ways to deal with that.
There was nobody to go to, because this was my boss. A second incident would have been with another female vet, and, It was just one of those things where you're thinking, we're supposed to be on each other's side, and that just wasn't the case. And she was just so cutting in the way she was describing what she thought I should have been doing, but it wasn't to me personally, which I would have much preferred.
It was to other people. And I think we need to be careful when we are talking about each other. I, my rule is, I will only say what I'm gonna say to you to your face before I will ever say to anybody else.
So be careful that you're not discriminating against other women in your own practise by inadvertently doing that. OK, thank you. Absolutely.
Is that? Yeah, I, I would, I, I still, I'm still clinging on to the fact that I might be a young vet, but I think I, that shit might have sailed a little bit. I would just say as a, a warning to the younger women in the profession.
I think there was a lot of we just put up with certain behaviours and certainly I am seeing some very empowered young women coming through the ranks. And the older women, there's, there's a certain sense of, well, I had to go through it, and it's not as bad as it was when I had, you know, when I was a young graduate. So what are you complaining about?
Just be a little bit wary about that because, certainly things that I look back on now. And I'm really surprised that I, you know, I wouldn't have put up with it for a new graduate, but I did put up with it myself, and only now do I see some of the things that happened as completely unacceptable and not just part of the course. And so, so yeah, so that's just my, my word of caution and I look forward to being completely out of date at some point and You know, don't know what I'm talking about and the next generation are telling us, how to, yeah, how to, deal with unacceptable behaviour and call it out, so, yeah.
Thanks. Thanks, have a good day. That was that was great.
It's fascinating and stuff. So thank you very much for. For sharing and the chat box is booming.
So let me have a little look. So we've got a message from Carly who's asked, can I ask the panel if there is a structure in place in vet schools to encourage and teach students and therefore new vets how to recognise and tackle burnout, compassion, etc. The students, the students we have had do not seem to recognise that any training has been given.
So it's around that. And that please yet. So I was only jumping into answers, I think, I think the most recent graduate on the panel, but I'm not entirely sure, but.
So this is an out of date perspective, but I know when I was at vet school, which is 5 years ago, there was stuff on this, but it was always optional. It was often kind of in the evenings or on Wednesday afternoons. And it wasn't part of the exams.
And so I think, and I know it's a difficult thing to maybe be examined on, but, there was definitely a perception that it was, it was very optional and it was low priority, and it was very much up to the students to attend those and not many. Did, I think that that is changing. It'd be great to hear, maybe in the chat from some younger graduates and what they've experienced in practise, and if any other panellists have any more insights, certainly have been involved in, Human factors training in the universities, which covers, a lot of useful tools around, communication and things that will help with that, but it's not resilience training as such.
But yeah, it'd be great to hear in the chat of, people's experiences that are closer to, more recent graduates than myself. Is that yeah, thanks, Nat. I was just gonna say I was chatting to some young, new qualified, vets.
And, I've got one in my practise, and I said, and he's male, and he's lovely. And I said, Do you guys have any training on this type of stuff? And he was like, Embarrassed.
Like, maybe I just didn't go to the lectures, like, I don't know. So I asked a couple of female, new grads, and they said, actually, not really, not specifically, because, there is this thing. And I was like, what, what thing?
And she goes, Oh, don't you know, it's the 2-year burnout. And I was like, What are you talking about? And basically, all of them benchmark the two years as the time when they are expected to burn out and go travelling and do something else.
And I was actually quite taken aback. And she said, Oh, yeah, this is, we all, we all know this. So they almost come out.
The expectation that things are gonna get really, really bad, and it's OK, cause you're gonna have gone through that. You get your burnout out of the way, and then you come back, potentially to the profession. And I was a bit like, I didn't realise that was, you know, the rhetoric at the moment.
But, I'd, I'd like to definitely hear from more recent graduates. So that was somebody who qualified about 18 months, you know, just, yeah, just the year gone. So I'd like to hear like the most recent, so yeah, please let me know if there's anything new that's out there, guys.
So I'm gonna, do a plug for Serra Uni. So mental health is really important to, all of the, VCTF team. So we are the team that look after our, students when they're out on rotations in final year.
We invite VetLife to come and talk about burnout. We're very open and we're all mental health first aid, England trained, and we talk about our own burnout with our students, and, and we do that, because we know that when we, give our personal testimony, it helps students open up as well. And I would just like to, you know, plug my amazing duties that, had a conversation about burnouts, and the, you know, the current.
The past year that they have had to get into final year has been very tough for them. A lot of online teaching and isolation and, yeah, that, so. I, I, I genuine genuinely believe the curriculum is embedding this, at Surrey, and, and prioritising students' mental health.
And I think that, graduates that come out with a skill set to recognise their warning signs, and, strategies to help themselves and each other are, it, it. I'm really hopeful that there won't be the 2 year burnout, you know, they won't, they're going to make it past the 4 years and they're going to be very happy and fulfilled in the career, whether that's still in clinical practise or not. And but yeah, I, I that.
There's no reason why we can't be embedding it becauseerry's definitely showing that it is, it's part of the conversation for our final years already, so. Great. That's wonderful.
Thank you, is that, there's a few comments in the chat box, and the Q&A box as well around, flexibility in the workplace. Does anybody have any advice for people who would like to work, you know, more flexibly but are concerned about the perception of this, the potential impact that it will have on their, careers. Yeah, that's panella.
I think there's two factors to this one, to do with the employers and the employees. I think, I think there's two levels here, so. Also, I, I think we need to move away from flexible working, just meaning part time.
That's not what it means. Flexible working could mean compressed hours, for example, could mean, split shifts. And, and that could happen for a whole variety of reasons.
I think we also need to move away from the fact that people would only ever want to work flexibly because they have children. That's just not the case. They may have caring duties.
They may have hobbies outside work that they want to do, because working till 7 o'clock in the evening means you miss most evening classes, right? So, That's the first thing I think. People, individuals also need to be aware that this is a two-way street, right?
So, for employers, if you opt for flexible working, or if you consider it seriously, you have more fulfilled, more valued employees that are more likely to stay. They are more likely in whatever the hours they are that are there, they are more likely to work hard and to, to, you know, ultimately help you turn over, because that's what bosses care about, that, you know, they have a business to run. But if you, if you seriously accommodate flexible working, then actually you have more fulfilled employees.
But as employees, we also need to take into account what we're asking for and whether it, it can be met, you know, it can meet the needs of the business. Right? So there has to be a balance here.
It's not us against them. It's how can we work together to make sure both parties are getting something out of this. Thank you, Katie.
I was just going to signpost the the work that Sylvia Janska's doing on this topic as well. I know she's technically a member of the webinar vet team as well, just as a resource to look at if anyone was interested in in knowing a little bit more about flexible working, because I know she's done an awful lot of work into that, looking at other professions as well and how they're making it work too. OK, thank you.
And now please. Right, yeah, I'm needed, just a really small point, just, I think there is a perception that. The part-time work.
Isn't as good as full-time work. It's, I'd love to know if there's any evidence on that, but anecdotally, that's something that I've certainly had in practise, and it can be quite, scary considering how that might be perceived, but I'd just love to empower anyone listening that would like that for whatever reason, just considering the shortage of, people in the profession. Right now, every single person is valued so highly, wherever you work, they would rather keep you and keep you happy, not just keep you happy, but keep you, well and fulfilled in your whole life than lose you.
So I would strongly encourage anyone listening that, thinks that would benefit them to, to feel empowered to start that conversation, along the lines of, as Daniela is saying, in a, a collaborative fashion. Well, thanks Nat. Daniela.
And just on that, it goes back to what we were saying earlier about, we're not very good at championing ourselves. If you don't ask, you don't get, right? So, I have conversations with my friends who, who want to flex working, compressed hours, whatever, and they've never actually asked.
So I'm like, Well, it's not gonna fall out of the sky. You need to have the confidence to go, this is why I'd like to do it. So, for example, the practise I'm working at now, and, you know, I'm coming towards the end of my BVA tenure, I'm thinking about what do I want afterwards.
And I knew that I wanted, I need. To work this amount of money, hours to get this amount of money, but actually, I wanted it to be fixed, rotor, etc. Etc.
And I approached management and I said, this is why I would like it. And for me, I said, in exchange, as long as it's a block of 3 days, I don't care what days of the week they are, and I actually don't care what hours I work. And actually, that was the to and fro that was needed, and I got what I wanted, even though the rest of the colleagues I work with are on this rolling 8-week rota, I'm not on it anymore.
I'm on, you know, a fixed rota. So, yeah, if you don't ask, You don't get, and we're really bad at asking and championing ourselves. I just add to that so we agonise over these conversations in our head and how awful they are going to be.
And as someone who is very shortly about to be returning to work, part time, but also I, Massively agonised over delaying that start date because I chose it before I'd had my little girl and I had absolutely no idea what it would be like, and I thought it was going to go down like a balloon and it was met with, yeah, that's fine, and I just couldn't believe it. And in some ways I was relieved, but I also felt really sad because I probably spent about 2 months of my life as a new mum, worrying about that conversation and playing it over and over in my head, and it wasn't anything like I expected it to be. So, yeah, don't waste that time, just ask and see what happens and start the conversation.
And I think to your point and to Daniela's point as well, quite often if we go into a negotiation, we make it almost I think feel even like it's an us versus them, but actually it's, it's the ideal is a win-win on both sides. But sometimes, like Daniella said, when we, we're not so good at championing ourselves, we forget our own value. And the fact that the win for them is that you are still there and you Still working at that practise and that they don't have to then go and spend thousands recruiting somebody else, and that they get not to come back from maternity leave and come and work for them, and that's a bonus to them.
But quite often we forget that we are a valuable commodity, and that's why, first of all, it's worth having the conversation, but secondly, remembering that, yeah, negotiations can be win-win, and we are part of the win for that for our employers sometimes too. Sleep. Brilliant, thank you.
We are just gonna move on to one final question, please, if that's OK, I'm just very, very conscious of time. Final question just to end the session, what is the best piece of career advice that you have received? It's a tough one, yeah.
I'm gonna go first and say, you are more than your job title and you post nominals, and remember that you're a human first. And it's so easy to chase the next thing and the next thing, but like has come up as like the golden thread through this conversation is embrace that uniqueness and realise that what looks like success to you is gonna look like completely different from someone else, and you are still a valuable person. Even if society has told you that you should be heading to be a CEO and actually you're quite happy running a small business somewhere or you're happy being a first opinion vet, that is a win.
Like you are more than your job title and you're a valuable one off human being as well. No, thanks, Casey and Daniella, please. Keep your options open, was the best bit of advice I was ever given.
Don't set yourself out on a career path just because that's what you've told yourself you wanted to do for the last 5 or 6 years. You just don't know what's around the corner, and what's the worst that's gonna happen if you push open the door. If you don't like it and you walk back out of it.
So, yeah, just keep your options open. Brilliant, thank you. C, please.
Honestly, be yourself. And I only heard this later in my career. I wish I'd heard it earlier because I spent my early part of my career trying to mimic absolutely all of the male vets around me, and it never worked.
It always came off as me trying to be like them. So just be yourself. Wonderful, thank you.
That please. This is a quote from, Ebony Escalona, and it's. I think I was really racking my brain because I feel for this question, because I feel like, I've had a huge amount of amazing input and mentorship, but I couldn't really think of like a, a one liner piece of advice.
And then I remember this one, which is my favourite, which is, you are not a tree move, which I love and has always stuck with me and actually does pop into my head. If you're unhappy, we don't have to stay there, and we should always feel empowered to, to move on from anything that's not, not right for us. But I just love that one, so I wanted to share that.
Oh, thank you very much. I love that too. We've had a few, a few more questions, but unfortunately we are out of time, so hopefully, that's been, you know, really useful to everybody.
Thank you all so much for, you know, being so engaging and for sharing all of your experiences and all your thoughts. And we've had a comment from, somebody saying, what a fantastic panel. Thank you for letting me be part of this tuning in from Canada, where we're experiencing the same challenges but working to make it better.
Another comment, use webinar, female vets like inspire the next generation of female vet students. We need to stand up and put on each other's crowns. Which is lovely, and we could go on online.
There's so, so many comments, but I think now is the time to move over to the vet exhibition, so where we can hopefully carry on some of these, conversations. So I think Dawn from the webinar vet team is just gonna pop the link into the, chat box. We would love you to come and join us in the vet exhibition.
So when you click the link, there we go, Don't just pop it in. You will be asked to enter your email address if you just do that and then when you click you'll be at the top of the sort of escalator, and then to the left you will see a room which is the networking room, the vet networking room. So that is where all of our panellists will be heading to shortly.
And just a reminder as well, if people could not use Safari because it possibly won't work, so if you could stick to Chrome or a different browser then, then that should work for you. So, on that note, if, if everybody would like to slowly make their way over there, that would be wonderful and thank you all again. We honestly, you know, been so excited to do this session and it's been so insightful.
So thank you all so much. Thank you everybody. See you on the other side.
Bye bye, bye.

Reviews