Hello. It's Anthony Chadwick welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the U K's Number one Veterinary podcast and really pleased to have Roger Longdon with me today. Roger will not be known by many of you.
He's not in the veterinary world. But I had a thoroughly, interesting and enjoyable conversation with him at a recent event in Manchester with KPMG KPMG sort of encouraging us all to be part of that northern powerhouse. Indeed.
We will see how that develops in the next four or five years as well. I, I do remember seeing transport for London, saying they were levelling up the north and they just met the north of the London sort of underground. We don't want the Southerners taking this race from us, you know, we're going to be levelling up.
Hopefully, it's going to go past the the Watford Gap and Birmingham and beyond. But, Roger really interesting, guy, the founder of Derby Giants. We'll talk a little bit about that in a minute.
But basically, Roger is trying to unlock and accelerate outcomes for leaders in the Northwest. From Manchester. I'm from Liverpool.
We got on. We didn't talk that much about football, which always helps. And I think, it's interesting with the Liverpool and Manchester thing because there's obviously a lot, lot of rivalry with the football teams.
I think there's some rivalry with the cities, but actually, particularly in in the sort of tech area, it's so much better for us to actually collaborate, isn't it? And it was nice to see the two ms, Andy Burnham and and Steve Rotherham getting on. And I think we have to We're probably stronger if we work together rather than, aren't we?
Yeah. Yeah. Great to be with you, Anthony.
And yes, II. I have always believed on many, many levels that we are all stronger together. And, whether that goes from good grief, I'm kind of revealing my sort of left leaning roots here, whether that goes from sort of trade union representative And I say that as a business owner, through to, you know, whether we're talking international geopolitics, yeah, so you can pull resources you can get, you know, from, FF.
From an economic point of view, you can get the economies of scale. But what comes with that is also greater influence as well. If you can all be aligned.
And actually, funnily enough, alignment is a huge part of our work. So that ethos around stronger together is actually, you know, an organisation is stronger when everybody is together, and that's not always the case. That's not always the case that everyone's together.
So yeah, 100% with you on that so background, very much being in business. I think your degree was in was in business and marketing and HR, wasn't it. And they're three incredibly important elements of any, successful business, aren't they?
I? I had a bit of an unconventional route through university cos I left school and originally wanted to teach, and I was training as a business studies and economics teacher. So it was kind of a business degree and a teaching degree, but the course was in, two halves, and I did the first two years and then thought I fancy a bit of a break.
I fancy a year out. Of course, I never went back, so I was able to Then, I actually took a bit of a left turn at that point because I started working in in in the care sector. I was working with, young people who were in the care of local authorities.
And I did that for about seven or eight years. But then decided Oh, actually, I did want to go back to business. So, I I picked up my studies and, sort of continued with the business element, and finish that off part time whilst sort of getting my feet into, the commercial sector and and joined What was then this is going to cast, memories back for a few people.
What was then IC L? The big computer, UK computing giant and, I. I joined really as an administrator, and I was there for best part of, about 14 years.
It went through a number of different iterations. You know, it transformed into Fujitsu. Although I know that's a bit of a toxic name given, the news over the past, past 12 to 18 months, and worked my way up through to It's funny.
You should you talk about, you know, the rivalry between, between Liverpool and Manchester. My main base whilst I worked in that organisation was Warrington, which for those who are not local to the northwest, is pretty much halfway. You know, it's almost like that No man's land between the two and it used to get quite tribal.
If if you had teams from teams from Liverpool playing teams from Manchester, it would get quite tribal and quite interesting, but yeah. II. I worked in sales.
I worked in engineering. I worked in operations management. I worked in bid.
I did work on bids for, winning large contracts. a whole And eventually I finished. I took redundancy from the organisation at the end of 2009.
When, you know, we we saw the crash coming in 2008. I could see it coming a mile off, and I thought, right, I'm gonna get everything that I need to kind of set myself up when to To To to work for myself. When I left the business and the organisation had a very strong, coaching ethos and they used to keep a pool of internal coaches, themselves which we used to get deployed around the business for people who had coaching requirements.
And in order to become a member of that particular pool, they put you through a very, very comprehensive postgraduate, training programme at Henley Business School. Which was transformative. I mean, it was it was absolutely fantastic.
So I made sure I got on to that before I I took redundancy. And then after that just kind of started 2010. I remember the January 2010 when the snow was like, 2 ft deep and everybody was, you know, pi pipes are frozen and everybody was was, was snowed in for two weeks.
And there's me trying to start a business, trying to start it by myself. And at that point, I was just like, Let's just work as a coach. I all I wanna do is just earn enough money to pay the bills and do work I enjoy, but you kind of get to the top of that hill and then you see the next hill, which looks a little bit more interesting and you think, Oh, all right, Let's try for that one and then and and and eventually once you've done that a few times and you plot the you you you you plot a line that joins up all the summits.
You actually realise that you have been going, you know, on a sort of growth path. Unknowingly, I never sat there and thought, I've got this big hairy goal and and I really wanna I really wanna drive to have a an internationally renowned business that specialises in its particular field that you know, is successful and so on and so forth. And lo and behold, that's where we've ended up so kind of.
I wouldn't say it was by accident, but it certainly wasn't by it wasn't by absolute intention right from the outset, I would say with all of the, you know, talking about unlocking and accelerating outcomes for leaders and founders, planning is important. But then, very rarely, I think Montgomery said most or no, I think it was. Eisenhower said planning is important, but most planning is rubbish cos it fails once you face the enemy.
So did you write a lot of stuff down when you ink it? Does that make you more committed to it or it It's a really good question because in in today's day and age, with the amount of, turbulence and volatility that we face, as as business leaders, you know, week in, week out, day in, day out Where's the, I really challenge the value in writing a detailed, I say detailed, you know, five year business plan. What I think there is value in doing is being very clear on the end points that you're aiming for and then being very clear about the way points that will help you assess that you're on the on the right path towards that end point.
But getting really detailed about the steps that you're gonna take between those way points, I think is falls exactly into what you said there. You know, many plans really kind of fall apart when they come into contact with reality. Yeah, so in the in the approach that we take, we, you know, agile is a term that's been thrown around for, you know, 15 years plus now, so I don't I don't want to kind of use that as a, as as to to jump on that bandwagon.
But the the point. The principle of it absolutely is 100% relevant to how you should approach planning in business. Now, you know, for many years, agile was just the preserve of of projects.
We help our clients apply the principles of agile to the way that they develop and plan and execute their strategy. And so you end up with the details on a very For for the mo for the more immediate term. So could be and then could be the next three months the next four months.
But the point is, you you you do still know where you want to be in five years and you know what? You where you want to be at the end of 12 months. But the only bit that you've really planned out is what's happening in the next 3 to 4 months.
Because the chances are you'll learn something in that 1st 3 to 4 months. That then will change What the the the the the the you know, the steps. You take the route you you wanna you wanna follow in the next 3 to 4 months.
So you've got that opportunity for iterative improvement. If you sit down and you intricately plan out what's gonna happen in the next 12 months for most businesses. Most organisations which you know, run at a fairly fast pace these days.
Then that's actually quite a wasteful practise, because the chances are by the time you've got through your 1st 3 to 4 months, the rest of it has to be rewritten because something external has happened or something internal has happened. Which means that you've learned and you want to, you know, slightly change course So absolutely all for being clear on the end points and the way points towards that. But not a fan of getting really detailed on every single step that needs to be taken between those, If that makes sense, yeah.
No, absolutely. Roger. And I think change is happening so quickly now that if you're planning for 3 to 5 years, the actual mindset will be completely different because of technology and all the other things geopolitics, et cetera.
That will change. We we were running, a payroll business that was based around IR 35. And then we had four different prime ministers who all had different ideas about what IR, 35 was and HMRC struggling to understand what everybody wanted HMRC also in chaos and, you know, businesses, then pretty much ignoring IR 35.
So to carry on for the next three years with that business would be stupidity, wouldn't it? Exactly exactly. Yeah, it is.
You know, you've not just got the political instability. You've got the pace of technology. Which is driving many, many things.
So, yes, 100% looking at, we we've we've just been going through a coaching session as well as the business, because Liverpool, metro mire has been given money. Basically, a lot of companies get stuck at a certain stage. How do they go from 1 million to 2 million.
2 million to 55 to 10. And it does require different mindsets, doesn't it? The way you learn to ski by doing snowploughs gets you down a hill.
But it won't get you down a black slope. You need to have different strategies for that. So do you think, how do you use that to sort of, help people at different stages?
Because presumably there are some similarities at the different levels. But there are different ways that you have to work from being a 12 man business to be in a 10 person business. Yeah, so?
So in my early days, when it was just me, I did work with those small microbusinesses. I did a lot of work with the tech sector here in Manchester, and that's kind of where I grew the business out of. But I started to, work a lot more with founders that were at that at a at a pivotal point where they perhaps had reached a certain size.
Usually, if you if you're looking at acount. Usually this was about 20 to 30 people. If you're looking at revenue, it's maybe a million couple of million.
And they they often as well they'd receive funding. And so there was an acceleration in the it it required in the business, if not just from their own expectations, but perhaps from the expectations of funders. By that point, so the pressure was on but the but the thing was that the founders often didn't have the like, you say, the mindset or the tools or the knowledge to do things differently.
So they were still trying to run the business as if they or as they had done right from right from the word go. And that's where that was the first sort of real, transformational. sort of intervention point for us for want of a better phrase, into organisations to help help them move to help give them a different way of, of of kind of defining.
And, And, what what the priorities are and helping everyone to align into them, understand what their contribution is and how important it is. But without becoming too corporate without having to write, you know, gazillion policies and and and and have huge amounts of governance and so on and so forth because a lot of entrepreneurs obviously would run a million miles from that type of thing because it's completely opposite to how they operate and what they want their businesses to be. So it was kind of answering that challenge of how do you become more mature as a business?
How do you make that that that sort of step change, but without, you know, becoming too everything becoming too burdensome for them? You can still keep that That that sort of light, light footedness. And, so that's kind of one end of the spectrum that we work at.
The other end of the spectrum is we actually do a lot of work with corporate clients who have become quite, immobile, you might say, not that responsive. They move as you get bigger. It's very easy to move slowly, isn't it?
And speed is And agility is important. Exactly. You know, they perhaps have found themselves moving at something like a glacial pace and that, and they need to start to get more responsive, especially if they're in in the in the technology sector.
So they approach us to say, Look, can you help us bring some responsiveness, some agility back into how we're working and and essentially, both both organisations, you know, whether it's the founder led or whether it's the corporate want the same thing. But obviously we have different models of engagement because obviously, one has a lot more stakeholders and a lot more people to, you know, get on the bus than than than the founder led business. But, yeah, so, we kind of work at both ends of the spectrum still being able to.
It's always on transformation, though, so they you know what we do is about, you know, it's about accelerating outcomes for businesses, and 90% of the time, those outcomes are transformational in nature. So it's not about how how to necessarily run the business better. Unless, of course, the business has been badly and the transformation is we're going to get better at it.
But for most businesses, it's usually about driving transformation. We were talking, with our coach, the process we're going through at the moment about Jack. We's work and the for and about energy and energise, to to actually, bit of edge.
But then also to execute as well. It it is speed is important, isn't it? Because even in a small organisation, it can be very easy to get involved in committee type decisions, which take months rather than weeks.
And I can remember I think it was, a friend from who worked for Google, who said, You know, Google used to say, we're going to try and do something in three months that most businesses would take a year to do it is that speed is so important, isn't it? 100% 100%. And in many ways, our our method that we take clients through, helps them to do exactly that.
You know, I've I've been working with, with our approach I. I started developing it, using it with those clients initially in the tech sector here in Manchester. So, you know, we pivoted or I pivoted the business from being a pure coaching business over to the, you know, the I noticed that it was the the performance.
The need for performance improvement wasn't necessarily at the individual level. It was more at the organisational level. How do you get everybody rather than just focus on one person, focus on everyone.
OK, and, and and so excuse me. Yeah, that's that. That that's been the main, the main thrust, the main focus of our work since about 2016, to be honest, and you you you know, you talk about what Jack Welsh was saying there.
And, you know, one of these being execution. Well, yeah, but execution doesn't just happen. It's something particularly with the level of, distraction.
You know the level of noise even in small organisations, whether that be internal or external noise, you know, there's a million and one reasons why Once you've set that goal, you can get pulled off track. And and, you know, I kind of bring in some of my, some of my influences from, from all the the the sports that I've done over the years, you know, rowing being one of them. And it is, you know, the the routine.
Rowing is very much a routine sport because you do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. But the point is that once you get into that kind of cyclical nature, it becomes the heartbeat. And it also means that you get the opportunity to test something out.
Like Google will have done right, test something out. And if it hasn't worked, you can either learn from it and adapt next time or kill it and move on. And And what we find is that when when clients embrace our approach is that they typically I mean, you talk about Google in three months.
What we see typically is that a client that that would have taken 12 months to achieve a goal that they set for themselves usually achieve it in half as long in six months. So there's the acceleration. And obviously, you know, to do all of those things, you have to have some sort of benchmark system, some sort of measurement system.
I did E myth in the mid two thousands, and we talked a lot about key success indices or key performance indices then and I've noticed people like Ben Harnish talking more about OK, RS. How do you measure success? Obviously you can measure it from pounds, shillings and pence, but But what are the other things that you think are important to measuring the success of a business?
And I know every business is different, but yeah, yeah, so, I I can talk in general terms here, you know, like you say, pound, shillings and pence. Bottom line measures are always compelling, especially if you got funders who are going to want to see, want to see returns like that. But it's the in many respects.
It's about what what comes before that what leads up to that ultimate measure of success. And so this is where you need to get absolutely fanatical about understanding the different types of measures and and deploying them in at the right time. So, you know, you've got your you've got your lagging measures, which are your true measures of impact.
So you have launched a new product. Fine. You know, maybe the number of downloads is, is is is a measure of impact, but probably I would have thought it's the revenue that's generated from subscriptions or whatever that might come from that.
But, you know, there are a number of measures that would lead up to that point that to help you. Like I said, talk about waypoints. These could be regarded as way points to show that you're on the right track.
So, you know, even before you launch it could be about they they, some sort of measures around testing perhaps the volume of perhaps the the the the scores that you're getting from, feedback from testers. Perhaps the the, the rate at which you're eliminating bugs from from it, for instance. I know it's quite a software heavy example I'm giving here But I think I think the principles can be applied to a number of different things.
Whether you're implementing just a new organisational process, you might want to test it out first. You might want to pilot it for this before you let it live across the whole organisation. And so the same principle of you know, the number of testers, the quality of the feedback, you know, how many how many, opportunities for improvement got reported.
And you know how we're getting on with ironing those? These are all what we call leading measures. So these know that we are on the right track, but they are not the final goal in themselves.
OK? And so you've got leading and lagging measures, which are what you use when you have data points available. Sometimes there isn't always data available, and that's where it's tempting to.
And and, for instance, signature of a new contract. You know, that could be really important in terms of obviously winning a business or perhaps signing up a new partner whose services or products you're gonna sell. OK, so in terms of it being a valid waypoint, the signature of that contract is probably still really important to keep the focus, and that's the point.
When you get a measure, it gives you focus it. It becomes a spotlight that that that draws attention to achieving that. And that's why you know, choosing your measures is really important.
And, you know, if you if you II I ended up going into businesses that have choose to chosen to measure everything that moves. And that's just a waste of time because nobody knows what the priority is. But if if the measure success measure for the next three months is to get that contract signed, you've got no data points.
So what you need to do is you need to just very, at a very high level just break down the milestones on the way to achieving that contract. So, you know, have have we can, you know, have we got to a point where we've got heads of agreement, have we got to so on and so forth and and just say, you know, just break? Imagine that con contract signature is 100%.
What does 8 8%? 60%? 40% 20% progress all look like So you've got that transparency and you can see how you're progressing towards it.
So three types of measures, you know, miles milestones. If you've got no data leading or lagging if you have OK, and those and that that's that's really important, to understand where to deploy and those are what we would call, really good for use as key results. You mentioned OKRS objectives and key results is a is a, a big part of our methodology.
And we find that they're really, really good for, clearly illustrating, you know, take that again. Go back to that Google. We'll get it working in three months, they will have defined that as an objective and a key result.
Our objective is this. This is our mission for the next three months. Oh, and by the way, we're gonna judge success by seeing whether we've achieved XY and Z.
OK, that's the you know that that's the, that's the structure to an OKR. What they're not there to do is to run the business, OK, They're not they're not about making sure that the business is healthy. They're not about making sure that the business is is necessarily, you know, getting invoices paid on time and the cash flow is working.
That's key performance indicators. That's the difference. OK, so there is a difference between the two.
They both measures of performance, right? But 11 is far more transactional, and one is far more far more transformational and strategic. Yes, yes.
Sometimes you may find the KP. I come over into an OR because it needs that focus. Because perhaps, you know, invoices are taking too long to to get paid, and cash flow is a problem.
In which case it needs focus for a given period of time. Fine. But once it's back on track and it's green, get it out of there because it's taking up valuable bandwidth for that transformation for that growth just to, pivot if you like, one of, one of our friend's favourite words not, But I'm gonna use it anyway.
Obviously all the business stuff Great. You obviously also have two lovely dogs. Jake and Molly, both staff bulls with a one with a little bit of extra in.
I think we can see them over there. One of them That's Molly at the back there? Yes.
So where are you? Sort of seeing, You know, you go into a veterinary practise. You don't need to name the practise.
But how effective do you think it's doing? Its its role. You know how How are you?
Sort of, looking at the veterinary profession. One as a business person, but also one as a, you know, a pet parent. Somebody with an owner of a dog of two dogs.
Really interesting that you ask Anthony. I mean, my my perception of of the practise, which I use. And I was only just there last night with my other dog, Jake, who is snoring his head off.
I don't know if you can pick that up. He he's on, Libre. So he goes in every month, every month for his injections.
And he was in. He was in there last night. And they are part of a big national chain.
I won't say which one, but they are, they are fantastic, actually. And they have They're not cheap by the slightest right, But they have invested in the facilities there. Only in the last six months they've actually had a complete refit and everything.
And, you know, they opened it all up. Had the guest had had, clients in to show around and so on and so forth. So you get you get to see what's behind the consulting rooms, which you're always thinking what's behind that door, you know, and you got to see all that and and that has that's made me feel like it's worth paying for, if you see what I mean.
OK, I wonder what the experience would be like if I was still at a if if if I was as an independent. I know there are a few independents around here. I don't know.
I don't know if my experience would be any different. Where I being that Jake's 14 and Molly's 13, where in terms of the two of them and the whole sort of animal health care equation where I'm feeling the pain is in the insurance payments because it's absolutely ludicrous. And I think it's, you know, I think it's borderline anti competitive for the fact that, you can't switch really now because if you did everything, all the prior conditions would be excluded.
So they really do have you by the short and curlers. And II. I feel resentful for that.
I really do. Probably the same in human. Yeah.
Medical insurance as well, isn't it? Once, once you are an issue, or as you get older, they're desperate to get rid of you by really hiking the premiums, aren't they? Yeah, they are.
They are. They are, and I was I tried to increase the cover for Molly last year, and they refused to said, you know, to keep it at this level. But, you know, it's interesting, cos I think, this has been a perennial problem.
Most vets are are really caring. Individuals want to do what they can, you know, don't want cost to be, something that stops people. So we always have different options, depending on what people can afford.
But I think we all get a bit obsessed with cost rather than talking about value. And, you know, I go and see a chiropractor, once a month or so, and I'm in there for about 10 minutes. It's 45 pound, and there's very little equipment there You know, a nice guy does a good job, et cetera, but you know, he doesn't have a radiograph.
He doesn't have an X ray machine. He doesn't have anaesthesia in the practise. He doesn't have, you know, places where people can stay for the day if they need to.
And, you know, stainless steel cages cost a lot of money. It's it's actually a very expensive business to run, so to actually make a profit is is challenging. And obviously, you know, most people just see the bill at the end of the day and don't understand how it's broken down, but I think it is about showing value, and and that was a great example where they let you into the back so you could see the facilities and what was available there.
Yeah, very much. So. I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
I do. Like I said, I feel like it's worth paying. Yeah, it's It is expensive.
I think all vets are are expensive now, but I can appreciate the value of them being go of them going there. And funnily enough, I'm actually considering a house move, and I've thought if I If I move out of the area, I'm still gonna come back here with Yeah, yeah, and and that's the thing. It's it's interesting, and I don't know whether it's changed, but often, when you look at trust categories for various professions, estate agents fairly low on the list politicians, you know, probably at the same sort of level.
But actually, pharmacists, opticians and vets are always very high on the list because I think people on the whole do trust their vets. Albeit, you know, we can't take that sort of trust for for granted. And and you can lose trust very easily.
Can't you as well? You can. You can.
You can? Yeah. No, I, I think, II I have 100% trust in mind.
I see the same guy each time. He's been looking after IT for the past six or seven years, and that was only he only took over because the lady beforehand, which I saw consistently, she retired. And he's one of the partners in the practise as well.
And yeah, I have I have no issues with with him and I. I like I appreciate again value is in the consistency. He knows the dogs.
And, and my two presented a few challenges along the way. I? I thought I was.
I thought I was gonna have to lose her in in in summer because she was having a really bad period for a very, very distressed behaviour, which for which there was no reason. It suddenly happened, and it suddenly started. And it was It was it was quite concerning.
But he was He was with me through it. And eventually we found we found a solution, which is, given her the comfort that she needed. And you, as you can see, she's she's too stressed now.
Yeah, she look too. No, no, not at all. Not at all.
So I am so pleased she's got through that, issue and, still doing well. They are a very important part of the family, aren't they? The the family pets.
They are huge. They are my my anchors in life. In many respects, we can't We can't quite do the the mountains like we used to, but I still I had them up in the lake district the week before last.
And they still they still managed a 4.5 mile walk from Ambleside to Grasmere, which particularly for him at 14. I was very, very pleased.
Very pleased with Yeah, Roger. Thanks so much. I think just to sort of finish off it it is that importance of measuring, but don't analysis by paralysis is is the other side of the problem, isn't it?
If you do too much, it's analysing the right things at the right time. And don't be afraid of changing what you're measuring as well. Yeah, I think II I absolutely, I think just just to expand on that a little bit, I would say Think about your end point and your way points Don't get obsessed about planning every single step, right?
The old days of, if PE people remember Prince two as a as a as a project methodology, Fine. It still works in construction. That's fine.
That's a different ball game and and big, you know, capital projects. But if you're running a business Nah, no, don't You need to be far more agile. So you know your end point your way.
Points get detailed, but only in the very, very near term, and then be really fanatical about where you choose to focus that spotlight, becau and and and and deploy your measures because that's what will draw people's attention and focus. So make sure that you're measuring the right things that either show you're on the right track or that they are genuinely a measure of. They're genuinely a result and outcome.
OK, that, and just just just to finish off, that's defining the difference between an out or getting getting clients to get their head around. What the difference is between an output and an outcome is often quite a challenge is often quite a challenge. And and because it it really requires them to get super honest about whether they're just ticking something off on a list and feeling good because they think it's been completed, or or or being honest about, well, you've ticked that off.
But what's that delivered? What's that enabled? What's that done for you?
Those are the difficult questions, which are the difference between an output and an outcome. Roger. Thank you so much.
It's been great to to speak to you. I know you're a podcaster. So maybe we can, over at some point.
I will. I'm sure we will. Yes.
My pod is called giant talk. As I said, we use, ok, RS extensively within our our methodology. And it was, in fact, I started it back in 2019, and it was the world's first.
OK, R podcast. So there's best part of a couple of 100 episodes in the back catalogue now, so people can can can can, you know, go and take their pick. Almost use it like a a bit of a wiki on on on O hours if they if they are looking at them.
But, yes, we'd love to get you on, and and, of course, I. I often get stopped at conferences, particularly as we move out of the pandemic and people say they don't. They didn't realise I was quite as tall as I.
I am, but nearly two metres for those still, measuring imperially 6 ft 6.5. And you're not that far behind me, are you?
No, I'm I'm I'm 6 ft five and I think that's why I gravitated over to talk to you Cos I said I don't have to bend down, do I? Good man. Listen, Roger.
Great to speak to you. All right? My pleasure.
And thanks everyone for listening and hopefully see you on a podcast or a webinar very soon. Take care and have a great day. Take care.
Cheers.
