Hello everybody and welcome to Vet Chat. It's great to be back and to have you joining us today. On Vet chat we are always keen to shine a light on topics that can support our veterinary community and today's topic is such an important one, navigating pregnancy and parenthood in veterinary practise.
So I'm delighted to be joined by Doctor Emily Singler today. And for those of you who don't know Emily, let me tell you a little bit about her before we get started. Emily is a 2001 graduate of Penn State University and a 2005 graduate of the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine.
Her career in veterinary medicine has included experience in shelter medicine, private practise, and as a relief veterinarian. She currently works as a veterinary writer, a consultant, a mentor and enjoys writing for both pet owners and veterinary professionals. She is the author of Pregnancy and Postpartum Consideration in Veterinary Teams, and she has spoken both virtually and in person on working in veterinary medicine through pregnancy and beyond.
She is also currently working towards becoming a retained certified parental leave coach. Outside of work, Emily is a mom to 4 children, 2 dogs, and 1 cat. She enjoys spending time with her husband and her kids, and she loves horseback riding and all things Laura and alpaca.
She is learning to embrace the chaos of having a big family and find solace in connecting with others and also eating chocolate. Welcome, Emily. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Yeah. And so our conversation today, I think it will really resonate with loads of our, listeners. So to get started, perhaps could you tell me a little bit about, what inspired you to start discussing pregnancy, to the veterinary community please?
Of course, yeah, so I, I just. It really stemmed from me wanting to find more answers to my own questions from wanting to know if, you know, what I was going through was, was normal, wanting to have Some, some guidance and community for myself around a lot of the decisions that I was making and There, I think there's a lot more discussion on those kinds of topics than there was when I was first, when I had my first child almost 18 years ago, . But I wanted to really, I wanted to get a lot of the answers, and then once I started looking into them, then I wanted to share them with other people because I figured If I wanted this information, if I felt like I was in the dark, on a lot of this material, I figured it probably wasn't the only one, and then it just became this passion of mine that That I, I wanted to talk about it, and the more I talk about it, the more I hear that other people are going through similar struggles, and I think that we all feel a lot less.
A lot less alone, a lot less, . Sort of a feeling of, of not knowing what to do, not knowing if things are gonna be OK when we kind of stay in isolation, when we don't talk about it, but when we kind of bring these topics out into the light, we can find a lot more community and we can find solutions and support each other. So it, it kind of started small and it's just grown and it's been so enriching to me and I think it has been for other people as well.
Yeah, absolutely. So you said that your eldest is nearly 18, so this all kind of, she'll be 18 in April, yeah. I mean, it has and it hasn't, but yeah, I mean now I don't know where the time went.
I can't believe, you know, that I almost have an adult as a child now, but yeah, I . I found out I was pregnant with her. About 3 months after I graduated from vet school, so I had just started my new job.
So I was trying to figure out how to be a veterinarian and then trying to figure out how to navigate all these other things at the same time. What to do about everything I was experiencing in pregnancy. Should I talk about it?
Should I keep it, you know, a secret, all of these things felt very Unsure to me, and I, I didn't know what to do about them. Like how was I going to Work when I had this baby that I was missing all day long, you know, how was I going to handle all the guilt I felt about leaving her, . How was I going to find a way to still love my profession that I just spent all this time and money and energy and, and, you know, my whole life dreaming towards happening, having, how was I gonna make that all work?
So, yeah, it's been, it's been quite a journey and I, I don't, I don't have all the answers, but, that, that's, you know, what really inspired me to, to start really working and researching and just kind of talking to others, in the, in the field, so. Yeah, I do feel like in that sense, the time has really, has really flown by, . And how, how kind of was that time cause I guess so you just graduated and then did you go straight into practise?
I did, yeah, I went straight into practise. I was working in a an animal shelter, so I was doing a lot of surgery, a lot of, Spaying and neutering, surgeries to, you know, sterilise dogs and cats and caring for, you know, client-owned animals in a, in a low cost, high volume setting and also caring for animals that had been relinquished into the shelter. So it's very busy, very high, high energy, fast-paced, .
Always a lot going on. I was definitely trying to prove myself. I was at the phase where I would walk into a room and the client would look at me and say, are you the doctor?
. And, and, and a lot of questions would ask me, how old are you? How old are you? Are you old enough to be a doctor?
And so I still very much felt like Not many people were taking me seriously in my career. And On top of that, now I thought, OK, well, now my employer is not gonna take me seriously because I'm gonna tell them that. I'm going to need to go on maternity leave and maybe I'm not, maybe I'm gonna be sick or maybe I'm gonna need to leave work early, or maybe they think I'm not gonna come back after I have my baby.
And so at that stage in my life, it was very much all about like, I have to prove that I can do this. I have to prove that I can do everything. And not let anybody down and never let my pregnancy or my motherhood or my responsibilities ever get in the way of my work, so I can prove that That I'm good enough, I guess, which Looking back on it now, it's unfortunate that I Felt that kind of pressure, but I, I, I think when you, when you don't Have any other frame of reference when you, when you don't have anybody to kind of share that with and when you're getting all this outside pressure that you need to, that you need to convince other people that, that you're trying hard enough, that you're a professional, that you're working hard enough.
It's easy to kind of put that pressure on yourself. So, it can be a hard time, I think when you're just starting out, to have to kind of Figure out both of those things at the same time. How was it when you did tell your boss at the time that you were pregnant?
I was incredibly scared to do it, but I think what I actually did it, my boss was was very supportive and was not nearly as as shocked or as horrified as I imagined that she might be, . So, yes, yeah, I think I made it a lot worse in my mind than than really for any of my pregnancies working with different different managers, bosses, supervisors, that kind of thing, whoever I had to tell. I think it was always, always worse in my mind than, than the reception.
Actually was with maybe one exception, but yes, I, particularly during my first pregnancy was met with, with a lot of support, but not a lot of experience in terms of This is how you make this work. I've done this before. This is what you need to think about.
This is what You may want to avoid, this is what you might Encounter, you know, there wasn't a lot of that. So, that part I was kind of left to sort of Figure out as I went along. Yeah.
OK, thank you for sharing that. And do you think, do you have, do you have any advice for people who might be You know, pregnant, might not have told their managers, yeah, you know, you sort of said that it was a lot worse in your head than how you thought it was gonna be in reality. Do you have any sort of advice for yeah.
I, I mean, I would say certainly, every situation is different, so I don't want to, I certainly don't want to come across as saying I know exactly what everyone should do, because, you know, some employers are, are not as gracious and understanding as others. I, I will just share that I had one situation where I was just briefly met with some inappropriate and invasive questioning, you know, basically asked. If I had been planning to get pregnant.
Which, you know, unfortunately, I mean, I guess it was probably the, the, the least sort of disruptive thing to do. I just answered the question, but looking back, I, I thought, why, why did I answer that? Like why didn't I just call that out?
It's completely inappropriate. But other than that, I had always felt very supported and I, I, you know, I felt like any anxiety that I had, you know, kind of anticipating, announcing it was much worse than what the actual experience was, but just kind of in general, what I'll say to other people is that the earlier you let someone who is in a position of responsibility or authority in your workplace know, the sooner you can get. Support, ideally, in, in, in the United States and in the UK and in many other countries, there are specific legal workplace protections that prevent an employer from discriminating, harassing, or allowing an employee to be harassed or discriminated based on their pregnancy or based on their You know, potential to become pregnant or if they've said that they're trying to get pregnant, all of those things, you cannot be discriminated or harassed for that.
You can't be retaliated against, you can't be punished, any of those things, you know, unfortunately, there are still some players out there who don't. Abide by that or who may not even realise that that's what they're doing. So I know that for some individuals, their, their concern and their hesitancy is, is, is well founded.
So for them, I would say, you know, use your best judgement in terms of, of, of when you make that announcement and how you do it. But I would say for hopefully the vast majority of us who will not experience that. If you're trying to think about whether you should wait, there tends to be a lot of pressure to wait until the first trimester is over, mainly because the idea has historically been wait until the risk of loss, the risk of miscarriage is much lower with the idea that if something were to happen, if you were to lose the pregnancy, at least nobody would know.
Mm. But I would counter there, in the unlikely event that that that were to happen, it can be very important to have the support of those around you, or at least the understanding that you're, you may be going through something that's very challenging. Again, every experience with a loss is, is different.
For some people it can be very devastating. I experienced a miscarriage during my third pregnancy. And for me it was, it was extremely devastating.
I know for, for others, their experience may be different, but for me, I felt very glad that others knew ahead of time that I was pregnant, so that when I went through that, I didn't feel like I had to hide, . What I was going through, because it, it completely, changed my life at that point it was, it was, it was something that kind of enveloped everything, for me. But even apart from loss, I would say.
The earlier that you can tell your employer or tell a manager or tell someone who can help, help take care of you, the better because that's going to give you all of those protections. That's going to give you their understanding if you have to call out of work more, if you have to come in late, if you need to. Schedule extra doctor's appointments, for whatever reason during your pregnancy.
If there are certain tasks and responsibilities, depending on what kind of practise you're in, what your role is in the practise, you may, if you are constantly taking X-rays or if you're constantly having to restrain fractious animals or perform other procedures that are dangerous, like in equine medicine, giving joint injections, that kind of thing. There may be certain tasks and responsibility, the handling of certain drugs that you would like to be able to pass to somebody else, for your own safety and even just your own peace of mind. So having someone who knows.
And can help facilitate that, can make a huge difference. And also if you are having a lot of anxiety about telling someone. Just getting it out and getting that over with can be huge for reducing your anxiety and just helping with your, your mental health and sort of distress because we certainly know that can be That could just be a huge negative impact on your, on your quality of life when you're already dealing with so much.
So, I'm a big proponent of telling, telling your employer earlier rather than later. But I understand that everybody's, everybody's situation is unique and that may not be the right answer for everybody. Yeah.
No, absolutely. That's great. Some really good insights there.
Thank you, because obviously the whole support aspect, but then also, you know, a very practical health and safety, you know, aspect that is it right? Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it. So I, I think there are very few things that I talk about where I say there's only one right way to do it, you know, one right answer.
I mean, just like in veterinary medicine, there are, there are so many different treatment options for our patients and different practise styles and, you know, different pet owners are gonna be comfortable with different price points and different levels of care. I mean, it's the same for us. Everyone's gonna be different.
We're all gonna have different unique needs and little challenges and things that affect the decisions that we make. But just, just having the information so that you can make an informed decision. I mean, that's really where I try to Try to focus so that everyone can decide kind of what's best for them.
Mhm. Brilliant. And let's talk a little bit about what do you think some of the common misconceptions or stigmas around pregnancy in the workplace are.
Well, I, I, I mean, I would say specific to Veterinary medicine, I think there's just a lot of Confusion and uncertainty about what is, what is safe and what is, what is not. And I think for anyone who hasn't been through a pregnancy, it can be, and it's impossible to, to imagine or try to understand what that's like. And of course, every pregnancy is different.
But in terms of, you know, workplace hazards, I did a lot of research, on, on workplace hazards as they affect pregnancy and veterinary medicine for my book. And I, and I learned that Some of the risks that we tend to talk about the most, things like radiation exposure, things like inhalant anaesthesia exposure. There are actually ways to make them.
Much safer, even for those who Don't feel like they can completely avoid them during pregnancy. I will say during all of my pregnancies, I continued to perform surgery. So I did not avoid inhaling anaesthesia exposure at all other than to make it as safe as I possibly could.
So a lot of the advances that have been made in equipment like scavenging equipment that removes most of the waste anaesthetic gas from the air that we breathe when we're in the OR. That is the single most thing that makes working around anaesthesia, the safest for, for all of us, including during pregnancy. For, for, for those who have to hold animals, restrained animals while taking X-rays, the risk can be made a lot lower just by following all of the principles that, that were taught from the beginning anyway in terms of You know, limiting our time in the radiology suite, wearing appropriate protective equipment, really learning about the, the X-ray machine itself so that we can try to get the exposure that we want, get the image that we want without having to take as many images.
And if we can, you know, using sedation and other types of restraints so that we're not standing right next to the right next to the pet or right next to the animal when, when the X-rays are taken. So, I was very, encouraged when I learned. You know, about that, that there were, you know, safer ways to do some of those things, but there are also some things that, you know, we really want to try to avoid.
There are certain drugs that can be very dangerous to a pregnancy that we really want to try to avoid handling things like prostaglandins and other hormones that can be absorbed through the skin. And they can potentially lead to pregnancy loss or preterm labour, and then there are some other drugs that can affect, sort of the health and development of the, of the growing baby during pregnancy that, we need to at least be very careful about. Just just on that point, Emily, what if people listening and aren't sure what is safe, what isn't safe, would you have any advice for them like any Anywhere to sort of go and ask these sorts of questions.
Yeah, well I will, I will just put a plugin for my book because I do cover a lot, I do cover a lot of this information, that's very specific to veterinary practise in my book. I have a, I have 6 chapters on workplace hazards, that's pretty much half the book. Of course, you know, Things come up, new medications come out, we learn more information.
So there are gonna be other really good resources depending on what the, topic is, you know, for, for drug exposure and that kind of thing, mother to baby. I, I can give you some of these links if you wanna . Include them for your listeners.
But I think it's called Mother to Bay. It's another website where you can call and talk to someone and say, this is the medication that I'm taking or this is what I've been prescribed or this is what I've been exposed to, you know, what is the risk to my pregnancy, what is the risk during lactation or breastfeeding. So there are a couple of sites like that I can give you the links to.
For infectious diseases in the United States, the centre for Disease Control, the CBC has a lot of really good information, on their website on, infectious diseases and whether there's any known risk to, pregnancy or breastfeeding, and I can give you some other links kind of depending on the topic that can give other Additional kind of specific information for, for those particular resources. But I did try to, you know, kind of summarise the, the most up to-date and known information at the time that I wrote the book just for those who want kind of a quick reference, working in veterinary practise. Yeah, that would be fantastic.
We can definitely pop them on the blog on the webinars. That would be fab. Thank you.
You're welcome. So I guess in terms of returning to work after having baby, do you have any sort of tips or any Experiences to share around what the challenges can be when returning after having a baby and any anything that employers could do just to be really sort of supportive in the transition back to work. Yeah, definitely.
So, again, this is gonna be one of those situations where every, every case is different. Some parents, particularly in the US where we tend to take much shorter maternity leaves, then At least In terms of what is available in the UK, I know not everybody takes an entire year of maternity leave, but there tends to be more cultural acceptance around that where here in the US that is extremely uncommon. So there can be a lot of sense, not feeling ready to go back to work, feeling like you didn't have enough time at home with your child, and so there can be A lot of sadness.
There can be some guilt. There can be even sometimes some feelings of, you know, resentment that you're being taken away from your child. But not everybody.
Some people can't wait to get back to work. Some people end up going back to work even earlier than they thought, because from a mental health standpoint or from a financial standpoint or whatever the case may be, they feel like They need to be back at work. So again, every case is different, but things that employers can do that can be very helpful, at least to offer.
Not everybody may want or need these things, but at least to offer, can there be any kind of gradual reentry where if an employee would normally work full time, if they would work 4 or 5 days a week, can they start out 2 to 3 days a week for A couple of weeks or whatever you decide is appropriate, so that they can sort of ease back in. Can they start with shorter days? Can they start their first week kind of in the middle of the week?
So that that first week is shorter. And for those that have had a longer time out, it could be helpful to do even just kind of a quick re-on boarding process where they have some time to become reacquainted with any changes that have taken place and New personnel, any new policies, if there's any new equipment or software or anything like that that's being utilised, have some time to kind of round with other staff members to find out what's been going on with some of the chronic cases, any new drugs that are being carried. Just have a little bit of time before they're kind of thrown to the wolves, as it were, to, to kind of get their, their feet underneath them again, get their bearings, and be able to ask questions before they're kind of back to business as usual.
So those things are very common. And other industries, in tech industries and sales and kind of the corporate world, for there to be kind of a re-on boarding, for there to be a gradual, re-entry programme, that kind of thing. And I think that they certainly can be transferable to, to veterinary medicine.
And then, of course, for, just depending on the circumstance, some, some parents may need time and space to pump. To express breast milk, particularly if they're coming back, you know, significantly before the year mark. I understand that may not be as common.
In the UK, if mothers have decided to take a whole year, they may not feel like they need that anymore at that point. But for those who come back and then, and they're still breastfeeding, they'll need, they'll need time on their schedule, they'll need a designated place that is not a bathroom. That is private, that is, with outside of the view of staff, employees, animals, anything like that, that is clean.
Ideally, it has a place to sit down, a clean surface, be great if it has a sink, . And then a refrigerator or somewhere to store their express breast milk, and it can feel very hard for a working parent to To step away and say, I'm sorry, I know that we have this extra case. I know that we're really busy, but I'm going to leave and, or I'm going to go step aside and, and not, not see patients for the next 2030 minutes so I can pump.
So just also having other support in the workplace to say, no, this is important. You need to go do this, we'll be OK. We'll figure things out.
We'll get this patient going or do whatever needs to be done, and you take your time. It can be very helpful to have that support because otherwise it's so easy to say, oh, you know what, we're so busy. I just, I'll skip this pumping session just to help everybody out so it's, it's can be really important to have.
Others who are really also protective of that time for that person. Absolutely, and or even just those little things that you said there as examples, all those little things can make such a difference, can't they, for somebody coming back and returning to work. Yeah, just thinking, kind of just to end on that topic of coming back to work.
I mean, how nice would it be if your first day back. Everybody is aware that you're coming back. Everybody is excited to see you.
Maybe there's a card or some little treat or something on your desk or your locker or your workstation, and everybody asks how you're doing, and everybody, you know, asks how the baby is and how things go, and they're supportive and they're looking out for you. What a difference that can make versus You know, you're coming back in and I'm saying, oh, well, thank goodness you're here. Now I'm gonna dump all this stuff back on you.
All the stuff I've been doing while you've been away and you haven't been doing it, and I've had all this extra work and, you know, just kind of making you feel bad and making you feel guilty. So just kind of that having that framework of this person needs our support. This person has not been on vacation and we want them to know how glad we are that they're here.
Yeah. Absolutely. It's, I think it's, we're getting close to time now Emily, but I think just to end, I think, I mean I think that was a lovely place to end, you know, that would be amazing if we could get to a point where every practise thought like that, you know, it would be amazing wouldn't it, if we all.
These women return to work, but are there any other sort of hopes and goals that you hope for the future around continuing this conversation, around pregnancy and, you know, family planning in the veterinary field? Yeah, there, I, I have a lot of hopes and goals. Some of the big ones, I, particularly in the United States, I Really would like to see the conversation continue around parental leave.
I would like to see parents have access to longer leaves and at least some paid leave, and I think Not only in the US but also in the UK and other countries, we need to do a lot better for fathers and other non-birthing parents. And not only do they need more support, but we need them. We need them to be included, we need them to be part of the conversation.
We need them to feel like it's OK and expected for them to ask for time at home, helping to care for their new child, for them to ask for Flexible schedules so that they can be involved in child pickup and drop off, for them to be able to call out of work when their child is sick, so that we Take some of that burden off of it always being the mother, and that's going to help us equal the playing field, and I think it's going to help fathers have a much more, and other non-birthing parents, feel more involved and more fulfilled as parents. So those are some of my, those are some big, big wishes, but things I plan to keep talking about and working on. Yeah.
Brilliant. Oh, well, Emily, thank you so much. I really enjoyed listening to all your insights today.
Really informative. So thank you. And, you touched upon your book earlier.
Is there, somewhere people can go to buy the book if they're interested? Is it available now? Yes, yes, it is called Pregnancy and Postpartum Consideration for the Veterinary Team, it was published by CRC Press.
It is available now, . The easiest way to find it is to go to my website, which is my name Emily Singler BMD.com.
And I have links to purchase it from various sites on my website. And for those who are interested in following me, I'm on Instagram at Emily Singler BMD. As well.
So I'd love to have you. I like to keep talking about these things and hearing other people's experiences as well. Amazing.
Oh, thank you so much, Emily. We'll put all your links and everything in the show notes as well on the website. Thank you so much for having me.
Oh no, thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much. Thank you.
Bye bye.
