Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Fetchat. Today, I am delighted to welcome our guest Katie Ford. And before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Katie.
Pie is an experienced small animal vet with a medicine certificate. Following her own experiences and interest in personal development, she trained as a certified coach. Haiti wrote a following of over 20,000 across social media and is now an international and keynote speaker.
She co-founded Vet Empowered in 2020, and as her businesses grew, she saw the importance of having the money mindset and financial independence. She joined VETU in 2021, helping to break down barriers around finances within the profession and to enable access to timely expert financial advice. Alongside all of this, she's also studying for a master's degree in emotional wellbeing therapy.
So welcome, Katie. Thank you so much for coming back to Vet chat. Thank you for having me back again.
I loved it last time and the topics that we're going to be talking about, I'm just so glad that we can be shining a light on it because it's something we, we still don't talk about much. Yeah, Brilliant. Oh no, it's great to have you here.
So, as you said, hey, on this series, we really do like to shine a light on any areas that we believe can help make a difference to people's lives. So, so far we've covered everything from like women's health, and neurodiversity, everything, but one thing that we've never ever, covered so far is grief. So it's great to have you here today, you know, to talk to us about your experiences of reef.
And this is a really, you know, sensitive subject. We were just saying before we get started, like if you are listening in now and you're not, in a great place, you know, to be listening to this sort of conversation, then we really would encourage that you skip this episode today, and we'll see you back on another one. Definitely such an important, just checking point for everybody at the beginning of a topic like this and just as you said there as well, Catherine, I'm very much coming at this, sharing my experiences of, Recently going through grief and my eyes being opened even more to the experience of that and certainly not as a counsellor or a therapist, and we just thought this would be something that people would connect with and realise that there are ways to navigate it.
Yeah. Brilliant, absolutely. OK, so do you mind, Katie, do you mind sharing a little bit about your personal experience with grief with Alices please?
Absolutely, of course I can do, the, the main sort of area that I'd be talking about is my, my dad died back in 2021, very unexpectedly, just after London Vet show, so I was down at London Vet show. In the evening, on the Thursday night when everyone sat around drinking their Prosecco and whatever's been given out, I received a phone call from my mum and my first thought was, she's going to be ringing me about one of the dogs. I'm sure this happens to everybody.
There's certain people, family members, loved ones, whoever. And I think, I wonder what one of them's done now. Oh my goodness, I'm in London, what am I gonna do about it?
Who is the back home that I'll be able to, to get to help her? And as I picked the phone up, she said, Your dad's not very well, he's had to go to A&E. They've kept him in.
He's struggling with his breathing. And to be honest, even at that point, I thought, no, they'll give him. Antibiotics, they'll give him steroids, they'll do whatever they've done previously, and he'll be on the phone to me tomorrow.
He'll be home and it'll be OK. And then by the morning, I spoke to my mum again and they kept him in overnight. He was on a ventilator at this point and a few days later we, we had to make the heartbreaking decision to switch off his, his life support, which, It was a huge shock because he, he'd been at work the week before.
I mean, he was 58. It was, it wasn't something that we saw coming by any means, and not to scare people that are listening, but quite often these curveballs of life hit when we, we least expect them. And that definitely was a, an eye opener to me for that.
And I think it it really did open my eyes to grief too, because I have lost family members previously. I know it's never just about who it is. It's not saying, oh well, it's a whichever member of the family, therefore it affects us less.
It's about the relationship we have with that person, but that was an eye opener for me for the next 18 months. It's been of navigating that process of understanding my my dad dying so suddenly. Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so sorry for your loss as well. That must have just been such an awful, awful time, and, you know, sounds like it just came from absolutely nowhere. Yeah, OK.
And how has it kind of shaped your perspective of grief, having gone through something like that? Has it sort of changed how you feel about the whole area? Definitely.
As I said already, I have had people that have passed away, close to me, family wise that I understood grief in, in a different way. And I think what this really taught me is that every time that we grieve is potentially different, that different people grieve in different ways. It taught me about the, the physical effects of.
Grief. It taught me that quite often we're going to feel all of the emotions through grief. It taught me that actually there isn't really a time scale on it.
And I think the other thing that it really opened my eyes to within this profession, especially Katherine, is how many people are navigating that? How many people are going through that? How many more conversations that I'd end up having.
I know you mentioned at the beginning, I've got a social media following. I was very open. I was very authentic.
I very much shared what had happened and that really started quite a few conversations over the years of realising how many people are experiencing, navigating, understanding grief in their own ways that just doesn't get talked about in society. Yeah, absolutely. I actually remember, around about the time, and I remember you were posting on your Instagram and I remember dropping you a little message on there about it all and I thought it was great the way that even though you were going through such a really awful time, you were being so authentic and so transparent with everything that was going on, and that's wonderful that you've got so many messages about that as well at the time.
Oh thank you, and I always remember your message as well, Catherine, and I remember so many kind things that happened at that point and whilst none of them take away that discomfort, none of them take away what happened, realising that people are thinking about you and I remember the webinar vet team very kindly sent some chocolates and some flowers across which was really lovely. There were so many people that actually reached out and. I sent some kind words, and as you've said, you realised at that point how many people have experienced something similar.
And that's why I really wanted to share it in an authentic way, just to say, look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend this is a great experience, or that I'm learning a big lesson from this. But also I want to kind of shine a light on grief and I, I feel fortunate that I'm in a position with a following and I felt safe enough to be able to do that. Brilliant.
Oh, that's great. How would you, how would you define grief if somebody asked you, how would you define? Is it the same now as you would have said before?
That is a really good question, and I think the way that I define grief now will be. The processing of an entire relationship that's come to an end. And I think that quite often we talk about grief just when people have died.
Sometimes grief is when there's been a big change in our life and we're grieving something else that might have been in a relationship, that might have been a stage of our life or a role. I think previously I probably would have defined it as just sadness, but I now know there's so much more to it than just 11 emotion that comes up. Yeah, do you think there are some common misconceptions or misunderstandings that people often have about the whole process?
I definitely do. I think the first one is that. People almost think that we have this timeline that we will grieve for 6 months, or we'll grieve for 12 months, or we'll grieve for 3 years or 3 weeks or something that we will have this really well defined timeline of what happens and how we feel at each stage, because, and again from the master's degree that I'm doing, there are stages technically of grief, but they're not as linear as they look.
I searched for a long time trying to figure out. Of what was happening in terms of, OK, am I going through an anger stage right now? Am I going through a denial stage?
Will this be lasting for 6 months? Will this be 12 months? Am I early in the journey?
Am I not in the journey? I don't. And the answers just aren't as linear as we think, and they're different for everybody.
So I think That's probably one of the first misconceptions is that it's a neatly defined process that we go through step by step, and it's gonna be laid out like this. I think one of the other misconceptions I touched on already is that it's just about being sad. Actually, when we grieve, we can experience so many different emotions.
I also think that sometimes there's this idea that when we're grieving, it's some sort of a, An illness or we're not well or it should be healed in some way, but actually it's something that we're learning to understand and live with and process that nearly everybody that's listening to this at some point is going to grieve somebody, yet we still don't talk about it and. There is almost this, this idea that once we've got past the funeral, or maybe a few weeks, a few months down the line, that people suddenly don't grieve anymore. But under the surface, I think everybody that does grieve kind of has this nod to, oh yeah, no, it doesn't just last 6 months.
It continues. So I think they'd be my most common misconceptions that I've come across certainly. No, that's so true, I think.
As well, like you can like I lost my dad as you know in 2017, so I was 30, I think they're really young, you know, like I like myself, and I think I kind of after the funeral and stuff like that, threw myself into work and then I got pregnant and it was, it was just very busy and kind of you go over things, you know, you just keep going and going and then I think sometimes just the littlest thing can just trigger something and you kind of think you kind of get brought right back to where you were right when it happens. So yeah, I completely agree. Definitely.
And you know, thank you so much for sharing that as well, Catherine, there, because I think the more that we do talk about it and the more that we realise that people that we see one side of them, we see the bit of them that we see on social media, and then we realise what maybe they have been navigating is, is powerful. And I totally hear you in terms of those little things where it brings it back. I remember standing in Tesco on Father's Day just looking at the cards on the the first Father's Day since my dad had died and thinking, I'm never gonna buy a Father's Day card again and just standing crying in Tesco and that was totally understandable and that was OK, but they're moments that people don't see.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know it's really tough, isn't it, when it's just triggered from, from nowhere, can literally be anything. Yeah.
Certain songs, like you've said, we might notice something that I remember my, my dad was in the building trade, so he did a lot of work on my house and we ended up with a leak in our porch. And my first thing would have always been to ring my dad because he'd be straight there, he'd sort it out, he'd have Some tools or he'd have a friend or he'd have someone that was gonna come and do it. And I just sat and thought, well, what do I do?
Like, who do I trust with this? How do I know who I should ring? And for anyone that's not had a father that steps in and does that would be like, well, of course you go to this person and you do this, but I never had to, and that was the moment of, oh, actually.
This is just another highlight or a mirror held up as to what, what a loss that has been for me. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, loads of emotions, happen, don't you, as you're kind of going through the grieving, process.
Is there any emotions in particular that you'd like to share that you felt that you went through and kind of how you sort of navigated through them? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like this is a really interesting topic in itself because when my dad first died, there was a lot of sadness, there was, Sadness of all the things that I wished that I'd said to him, there was sadness of the things that I felt like he might have been missed out on.
There was sadness for my mum because she'd lost her own mum earlier that year. There was sadness for the idea that my my dad was no longer there. And then as time went on, I started to experience other emotions and to be honest, we actually had quite a complicated relationship which, There was all sorts went on for my dad, which then actually changed probably how he acted around me many times, and that was a point for me to start to navigate further into that grieving process where there was almost .
Like anger and resentment, there was some guilt that came up too, because I'd not always shared everything about what I'd done in my business and in my career with my dad. And actually, it was as time went on that those other emotions started appearing. So I think it's just really important for anyone that is listening, is just to know it's, it's not always been sad, because as we've said already, quite often grieving, we're processing the whole relationship that we had with them, and there's gonna be things that come up where, It's not just us feeling sadness.
It might be that we look back on a certain situation that's happened or interactions that we've had, and we start to look at those through maybe a different lens or a lens that we're feeling feelings that we hadn't done previously. And that's where I personally found it really helpful to reach out to a grief counsellor and have the space held for me just to talk those things through. Rather than, as much as absolutely we can speak to friends, we can speak to other loved ones, other family members, the other people around us.
But sometimes having a professional on board that can hold that space, that can listen to you and ask the questions that help you to, like you said, process those emotions, then that is worth its weight in gold because otherwise, if we've got people that inadvertently say, oh, I don't know, you must be so sad. And in that moment you're not feeling sadness and you think, well, no, actually I'm not sad right now. I'm quite frustrated or angry.
Should I be feeling sad? Maybe I should be feeling sad. Then that doesn't always help.
So actually taking the judgement off if people do say that to us because they're doing the best and they're trying to be kind to us, but whatever people do feel. It's, it's OK in that moment if that's what you feel, and if it's all feeling very complex and very mushy and there's different emotions everywhere, then that's where the value you can come for is just having somebody that will professionally hold that space for us to understand it. That's so true, because I think what I found was people didn't really know what to say, you know, like friends and family, you know, they're there and, but having a professional kind of, you know, guiding you through these conversations, I that was really helpful during the time when you were going through everything.
Yeah, definitely. And it can be underestimated as well. I think almost there's this connotation of, oh well, you know, people have died previously and I've been fine with it then and maybe I just need more time, but I'd say if it is something that's really causing people discomfort or they're not sure what to do with it, then actually having someone just to soundboard and listen to you, like you said, can be, can be really helpful.
And just as you've touched on there, Katherine too. Because as a society we don't talk about grief much. We, we don't often know what to say.
And I think for anybody that's listening, that might be a good place for us to kind of, segue to, be thinking about what you can say to people and what can be helpful in those moments, cause there's loads of good resources out there too for this. No, absolutely brilliant. What sort of, while we're on that, what sort of, resources did you find helpful or would you recommend that people go and have a little look at what they are at the moment?
I, first of all, from sort of two points of view, the, the first one would be if you're trying to help somebody else that's grieving. Sue Ryder, who is one of the, the charities, they have a campaign called I think it's called Grief Kind. Where they talk about things that you might find helpful to say to people that are grieving without you thinking, Oh, I said the wrong thing.
They really just guide you through a process really, really nicely. I'd say for anybody that is grieving and feels like they're struggling with that, don't forget we've got Vet Life within our profession. They're always fantastic, well-trained listeners that will Be able to be that listening EFR you will maybe help signpost you towards other resources.
You can find, counsellors, grief counsellors, for example, there's the BACP which is the, British British Association of counsellors and Psychotherapists have a list of who's actually licenced, regulated professionals. People might have employee assistance programmes part of their workplace where they've got the ability to speak to a counsellor. There are lots of different sort of grief type communities out there too, so people might find online communities that suit them.
I know, for example, Sue Ryder, they have an online grief community too, where you feel a bit less, I realise we're alone in our experience, but sometimes when people don't talk about it, you can think you're the only one that's trying to kind of navigate that. So looking at communities like that, some people might find helpful. And again, as, as a tool in general, I always found self compassion, which there's huge amounts of evidence for really valuable just to use to help me like accept how I felt in that moment and meet myself with the same kindness that I would do a friend or a loved one or anyone else that was experienced in that too.
Brilliant. Oh, thanks, Keith. That's great, and we will definitely link all of those, things that you just mentioned up on the website as well when we put this live so that you can find them if you wanna have a look through.
Amazing. Brilliant. So would you say now that you feel like you healed from?
Well that's a big question. That is a big question, and I, I think it's really important at this point, as we've said for that idea of healing as it were, because sometimes it can kind of almost give this idea that we were. Broken and that it needed fixing, but we know that grief is actually a, a process that we learn to live with and navigate.
There are some really like beautiful analogies that you'll find out there that sit well with some people, the people find different things to think about. But I always remember someone talking about this idea that grief is like a, a ball in a box, and at first the ball feels huge and takes up the whole of the box. And it's not that the ball gets smaller, it's that the box gets bigger, so less frequently is it kind of hitting the sides.
So We know that eventually, although that, that grief is still there, it might hit less frequently. And I notice now for me, it's definitely hitting less frequently. Again, I'm 18 months down the line, which I am constantly learning with.
OK I always naively go, Oh, you know what, I've got a bit further down the line with this now. I'm, I'm not as early in the process as I was. And then 6 months later you look back and you kind of naively laugh at yourself and go, you were still really early in this.
And 18 months, I know you'll say to me, Katherine, is, is still really early in this. And I think for me, it's kind of noticing the frequency that I notice that grief, but also how I react when it comes. I think at first I'd very much be like, 00 my goodness, like, I'm grieving again.
Now I'm like, oh. OK, I, I feel sad about that. It's something has popped up.
That's OK because we know that quite often it's a reminder of the the love that we had for them. It's a reminder of the relationship that we had with them. It's a reminder that they existed because I think that's a big thing.
A lot of the time people say, oh, I don't want to talk to them about whoever it is that's died because it might upset them and it might remind them of them and actually. I know certainly for me and for a lot of people that I've spoken to, if, if the time is right and I feel like it, then often I quite like talking about my dad. You know, I don't want to just pretend that he didn't exist.
Oh, thank you, Katie. We're just getting close to time, just a few more things I wanted to ask. I know we touched upon a little bit earlier about people sometimes maybe friends and family being a little bit unsure, you know, how to speak to somebody who's going to do to help them, you know, out them and their discussions around the area.
Is there any sort of Anything you suggest having Your personal experience with Greece, does that influence the way that you would offer support to others now. I definitely think so. I think first of all.
I'd acknowledge that I'm not going to take away their pain or how they feel, and quite often, particularly in the role that all the listeners are in, in the veterinary profession, we want to make things better, right? So we step immediately into that role of wanting to say something that makes it better, wanting to do something that makes it better, and the reality is we're, we're not going to take that away, but it makes me step more into the, I'm here if you need to speak. Is there anything that I can do to help?
So quite often I found in those early stages, people that offered me like almost physical assistance of, I'm gonna go out and grab you some food. I had lovely people that sent me like food packages or people. That said, Do you want me to jump in and like triage your emails for you and just explain to a few people what happened, and like the, the physical practicality of things.
So I think it's more now around me finding out how I can support them around finding what's their way of navigating grief. And also just reminding them, you know, there are people to, to help. It's OK.
I shared this on my own Twitter timeline as well, saying, look, I am a coach, I've trained in all these extra things. I'm doing this master's in a very similar topic, but I still need to speak to somebody about it. We don't reach a point where, oh, you know what, I can handle absolutely anything that's thrown at me, like, grief is, is a big thing, and sometimes we need help with that, and that's OK.
No, absolutely, thank you, Katie. So just a final, question before we, before we go, are there any messages or any takeaways that you'd like to share with our listeners who might be going through their own bosses at the moment or might know? Definitely.
I think the biggest thing that I'd say, and I wish that someone had said to me at that point is, like, take the judgement off yourself about how you're grieving, and let's not compare it to how you think you should be grieving and how you think you should be navigating it because your grief is. It's unique to you and there will be different things that help you, and if you're struggling with it, reach out for some help and some support so that someone can hold that space to help you navigate that and yeah, just be gentle with yourself as we would be to other people that we loved. That's wonderful advice, Peter.
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's flown by our conversation.
Is there anything else that you wanna mention or are you happy you've covered everything today? I, I think the, the one thing that I would mention is when we're thinking about supporting other people, just we touched on it briefly, but don't forget that grief doesn't end at the funeral. Check in with your friends.
I very much found that the people that checked in the most with me were often people that had someone very close to them die themselves. So it might be that on Father's Day, they'd message me on Mother's Day I I message my friends that I know's mum have died and just say, just to let you know I'm thinking of you today. We don't have to say, how are you feeling about this today?
Just a message to say I'm thinking of you. I'm here if you need me. Because often, and there was an analogy that someone used on Instagram where they said they felt like their friends got off the grief train at the first stop.
And that's often what we can do when we've not experienced that. And I say this without judgement for anyone that's listening. I don't want anyone to say, Oh my goodness, I've forgotten about my friend that was grieving.
I'm a bad person. You know. Nobody teaches us about this.
Just actually having that awareness that those anniversaries, those first, like, 6 to 12. So someday when we've often forgotten that that happened to them, because their life is as much as it's important to us, it's a small fragment of everything that's going on in our life. Just having that on our radar and realising that sometimes it's going to affect people.
People forget to check in, and while someone is quietly grieving and trying to navigate all of that, the rest of the world can kind of have forgotten that. So check in with those when you remember. Brilliant.
Oh, Katie, that's wonderful. Thank you and thank you so much again for being here today and for sharing your story. I think it's, you know, the emotions and everything that you've talked about, I think will really help so many people who are listening, so, and I think what you said about healing, you know, it just takes time.
Everybody's on their own. Journey going through it at their own pace is really important for everybody to remember as well. So thank you so much for joining me and yes, all the resources that people might find helpful, we will link back to our website as well.
Oh, thank you so much for having me. No problem. Take care.
See you soon.
