Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick from the Webinar vet welcoming you to another episode of what I'm led to believe is the UK's leading veterinary podcast. So fortunate today to have an old friend on the line, Clive Elwood, who has known me since I was only that tall. As a student at Liverpool University when he was a house officer there, Clive, it'd be great to maybe just let you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your history.

I know you've done many things. We've only got half an hour, so you're not allowed to spend the half an hour on this. Yeah, for sure, thank you.

And, you were still taller than me when you were a student, so, I think that will always be the case. So yeah, thanks for inviting me on, it's a real pleasure to be here. So what's my background?

I trained, and then moved into specialist practise, . Via residency and PhD, was a practising specialist in small animal internal medicine for 25 years, was, part of the, early development of Davies's veterinary Specialists and then became managing director, in 2010. A post, which I held until we sold the practise to Linnaeus in 2019.

At the end of that career path I was getting very interested in leadership and in coaching and I was sort of taken a bit of a side step into developing leadership coaching service and, and, . That's where I am now. Fantastic, Clive.

Obviously you write very eruditely in LinkedIn, but obviously you also have the book Leadership in Veterinary Medicine that I think was published earlier on this year. One of the stories I read in LinkedIn, which I think really resonated with me was, Your story about graduating many years ago for your PhD and being disappointed with yourself and not actually attending the graduation ceremony and actually then there was some catharsis when you, you attended your masters in coaching graduation. Tell us a little bit about where that came from.

Yeah, so I think one of the reasons I've enjoyed the journey into coaching is it's an indulgent self-examination if you like, but one of the things I learned. Or understood more about myself was the role of sort of the inner critic and shame and that driver of of achievement in the background and never feeling good enough, never feeling that I'd done enough, never feeling that I I've proven myself, always wanting to get the next. Qualification, do the next thing so that I could be armoured from criticism, either self-criticism or projected criticism from others.

I, I'd now recognise that there probably never any evil criticism from anyone else, but yeah, it didn't feel that way at the time. So when I, I had my PhD, I failed my first viva, which was a huge blow. I struggled through to get the, the PhD accepted, finally got it accepted, but I wasn't proud of it.

I wasn't proud of myself, and I didn't really want anything to do with it. And then, you know, 25 years later, having done the masters in coaching, it was a very different experience, a very, say quite a lot of connection and relationship and quite a lot of self forgiveness in there, . Then I was really proud and, and, you know, very happy to celebrate that and, and, look back and say, well, actually maybe the PhD wasn't so bad after all.

But wasn't a great PhD, but maybe I wasn't so bad for, you know, for, for getting through it. I definitely felt the same thing about sometimes, you know, business, if somebody else was running this, would it be doing a lot better, you know, would be making more of a difference, but then it's also. As you say, what your values are and what you're wanting to achieve, isn't it?

I suppose as as vets we are sometimes our own worst critics aren't we? We are. And I think you know that there is this, and it's not true for everybody and and you know, overgeneralization is dangerous, but you know, I'm always asking myself, you know, if it's so hard to become a vet.

Which is generally acknowledged, you know, academically very challenging, demands an awful lot of commitment outside of the classroom, as well as inside. What is it that drives people to that point, . And in my case, you know, some of it was good, you know, there was passion, there was curiosity, there was interest, but also there was this, definitely this inner critic, you know, gotta get better, gotta get better, gotta prove yourself, gotta get better, and when that.

Takes over and, and demands parts of you that you then don't have energy for for other parts of your life, that's not necessarily terribly helpful. I think looking back at, you know, my, my life. The failures are often where you learn more than when you're hugely successful, aren't they as well?

They are, they, they, I mean the failures are definitely where you learn because by by definition you're at the edge of your capacity. If you're succeeding, you're doing stuff that you can do. If you're failing or getting very close to failure, getting into that really uncomfortable space where you, you, you know that you're not on top of it, that's where.

If you're from a neuroscientific point of view, that's where the learning is, that's where you're having to make new connections, so yeah, definitely, and it doesn't necessarily need to be, You know, failure that is externally perceived, but it may feel very, very uncomfortable, you know, you, you keep pushing the edges to to develop, to develop. And that's where certainly that's where for me where coaching's really interesting because it's, it's a sort of safe space for people to push those edges sometimes. I think coaching is so important.

You saw it yesterday. I was watching the football, we were 2-0 up and at halftime it was 2-2. And actually that 5, 1015 minutes that they were in the dressing room, they're coaching each other as players, but actually one of the, the things that Klopp, I think does so well is actually.

That that's the whole reason why you need a coach, if you needed to encapsulate it, why did Man United keep Alex Ferguson for 25 years? Because the difference if you don't have that coach, you, you lack that ability to bring a team together, don't you, you know, the book leadership in veterinary medicine. In some ways the leader is the encourager and the enthusiast for the business, aren't they?

Mhm. Yeah, and, and there's there's also that concept of the leadership, and you said it there that the team coached themselves, that leadership being, Not necessarily an individual attribute either, it's leadership is in the relationships between people, so, you have all of this thing about the leaders, leaders in the changing room, now sometimes the leader in the changing room is a quiet person. You know, or yeah, the person who just sort of makes people stop and think, and they don't, you know, they don't have to be the shouty person, they don't have to be the, or the person who has the quiet word with the one person.

Who then makes a difference more widely, so and and so leadership then, you know, it's it's encapsulated as a group activity rather than as an individual attribute or trait, I think, and that's, that's very important in team settings and certainly in healthcare settings, I think, Davis was obviously from my perspective seen as one of the best. Referral hospitals in the country, but you're bringing together some very, very intelligent people in a team, you know, the, the, the vets, the nurses, the other people that are in the business. That presumably can can be a a pleasure, but it can also be a challenge as well.

So perhaps give us a few examples of, of leadership, and I'm thinking particularly Davis really led the way on the whole concept of sustainability in the profession. Perhaps tell us a little bit about that story. Yeah, thank you.

Well, I mean it's great now to see the impact that Ellie West and colleagues who are now in Linnaeus are having more widely, and Ellie with others was instrumental in getting the Green Group up and running at Davies, which is the sort of first iteration of of. Something that was designed to make a difference and that has now, you know, been spread much more widely, and it was the basis of the investors in the environment awards that, you know, Ellie and and the Davies team have have garnered. So that started when I was managing director.

My role in a leadership capacity was to give space to create time, to. Let people know that it was supported, that it was important, that it was valued, and to facilitate and certainly not to direct, I'm keen on sustainability, but I'm not an expert or, or, you know, in sustainability. I had many other things, on my agenda and you know, demanding my time, so.

It was one of a number of things that were going on, but it was important, Ellie was very clear on the things that could be done, and then you know it was a question of trying to ensure that Ellie and the team had the tools and they needed, so time, money, but also an understanding of, The system that they were negotiating, the people they had to convince, the people they had to talk to to get things done, where whatever information they might need on energy consumption or costs or things like that, and how then they could make a case to convince all the stakeholders that changes could be made and that they would be beneficial across the board, so. Changes that, reduce energy consumption and save money are difficult to argue against in a business context, and then, so then you, you, you sort of encourage the quick wins and make sure that, you know, there's other outputs, so, you know, marketing, get involved so that it can be talked about, you know, and that's been done very successfully and that the that you build a team. That has all of the right ideas, understands where they fit into the, the overall organisation and, and, you know, become established and and the momentum's maintained as well.

That's the other thing of course is that some initiatives can easily start off with enthusiasm and then reach blocks and, and, you know, fizzle out. Yeah. And that didn't happen and obviously Ellie and colleagues, you know, yourself included, have really led the way in that.

Sustainability becoming more mainstream. We did the, Green Summit in in January as part of the virtual congress. We had 300 people on a Wednesday afternoon listening to sustainability discussions, and it was really gratifying to see more and more people when I get the newsletter for investor in the environment, joining, you know, that scheme as well as other businesses.

There's a large number of vets who are starting to get it, which is. Fantastic and I think the really interesting word you used there was stakeholders because if you look back, several years, I think there was a changeover in America where some of the big companies came together and said, Business isn't just about making profits and they started to use words like other stakeholders apart from the investors, people like, you know, the people who work there, suppliers, etc. Etc.

The environment, you know, is a stakeholder in that there there's a. There's a cost to us doing business for the environment as well, isn't there, and it's, it's fabulous to see that we're seeing that real, real change now. Always ask on the, on the webinars, Clive, for, for some of your, your own personal thoughts and tips on sustainability.

I know you've just, just been building in a new house and some. Interesting things that you've been adding on that make it greener perhaps tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, but the credit for that definitely goes to my wife who's the project manager and driver of all these things, but she's incorporated solar panels, hot water solar panels in the new roof, there's rainwater harvesting, .

Going through, so that's supplying dirty water to toilets and the like, garden water. I've got a wildlife pond that's being dug at the moment, well, it's been dug but needs to be shaped a bit so it doesn't leak, so that's sort of my little project, that's my, I, I want to, you know, I quite enjoy a bit of nature, so trying to play a bit more nature into the garden, and. Taking a a a rewilding view on that, so make a hole, fill it with water, see what happens.

I think it's really powerful. People often wait for the government to make changes and, and in fairness to the government, there are some good things like the green car, taxes, etc. But actually, in the end, the big changes come from individuals and also companies don't they?

So you know, it's great what what's happened. Within Davis and and obviously then Linnaeus, but also what we as individuals do, sometimes we can kind of expect everybody else to solve the problems in the world, whereas we all have a obligation I think to come with solutions, be it in our personal lives but also in, you know, our business lives as well, don't we hope sometimes with the help of a coach to get clear on. What those problems are and perhaps how we can solve those things as well.

Yeah, and, and, you know, understanding the changes that you can make and. The blocks that might need might be there or might not really be there but might be you know, you might, you might think are there and that comes to, you know, back down to sort of inner critics and things like that. Now I can't possibly do that, why would I be able to do that?

They won't listen to me, you know, I'm not important, so I can't make a difference, and coaching and, and more generally support. Of each other, you know, whether it's formal or informal can make a real difference, and you know, even that, yeah, you could go on, you can do that, you know, but yeah. You know, I really believe you, and that could be colleague to colleague or, you know, in a family or you know, friend to friend, you know, it, it just that little bit of human support, relational connection, belief in others and and expressing that belief can, can really help people, I think, just make changes which, you know, ultimately benefit them, but you know as you were saying on a sustainability front benefit.

More widely and lots of little changes add up to big changes. And I think as you've said, the example of doing that often encourages other people to start on the same process, doesn't it? Yeah, it does, yeah.

Er and seeing that it can be done removes one of the big objections. You know, we can't do that. Well you can cos someone else has done that, you know, it's obviously achievable.

It may not be easy. But it's not something that, is impossible because someone else has shown it is possible. I, I've always said, you know, I was very fortunate from the age of 8 I wanted to be a vet and I was, you know, a practising vet for, you know, a similar time to yourself, and then obviously now I, I work on, you know, webinar vets.

It is one of the best jobs in the world, and yet we are struggling with, with burnout, you know, the negativity that I think pervades all media, I think does drain us as well. If, if we have a job that is almost like a hobby then it never feels quite like a job, how can we, how can we tackle the burnout situation at the moment, which is obviously been partly produced by the pandemic, obviously also by Brexit and the, the smaller numbers of . A vets in the profession plus obviously pandemic puppies.

It's a difficult time at the moment for people in practise, so are there some. Easy ways that we can perhaps lighten that load on on ourselves in practise. I wish it was easy.

I mean, I think the, the, the first thing I would say is to acknowledge that it is hard, but, you know, and it's OK to acknowledge that it's hard because you've just listed all of those circumstances which made the last few years even more difficult, and the veterinary profession has always been a challenging place to be. The, the, the, the gap between the romance and the reality can be quite wide in some cases, and. You know, there is a danger with the sort of panacea of resilience that it imposes the solution on the individual, whereas actually the solution or the problem is systemic.

And I think as individuals we can do what we can do. We were talking about, you know, small changes you can make on the sustainability front. There are things one might choose to do, and we were talking earlier about the .

Draining impact of social media, you know, and that's true in the veterinary profession, but true more oddly, so you know, avoiding, you know, places that pull you down and conversations that pull you down would be one example, seeking to, I mean all of the obvious things around self-care, you know. Eating healthily, sleeping well, sleep hygiene is so important, you know, keeping overconsumption at bay, you know, physical activity, all of those things, which are all very well, but when you're, you know, hammered at work and clients are giving you grief and you're on a. You know, extended shift, you know, you can't get away from work cos you've got too much to do, then that's hard, and also when, when, You, your inner critic starts firing off if you do leave work and spend a bit of time on self-care when you know there's jobs unfinished or the job that you've done is not perfect, then that's hard as well.

You know, so you know the drive that got us here is the drive that keeps us here possibly too long or for too many hours during the week, you know, so we've got to, we've got to be aware of that and that, but that's hard. So we have, but we, we have to see time that we give to ourselves, not as something that we don't deserve, but actually that's really important for our mental and physical health. Yeah, and, and therefore, actually, and from a organisational point of view, seeing that ensuring people do take that time.

Is valuable, is a you know, is an investment which returns year on year. I think one of my frustrations, when I was in a leadership role is sort of trying to change a culture that says if your work is done, it's OK to go home. Yeah.

You know, go home and, you know, walk the dog or ride the horse or see your family or whatever, and don't feel guilty about it cos there will be days when you won't be able to go home. Yeah, and I, and I was the worst at that as of anyone, I mean, I, you know, I, you know, spent far too many hours at work, in my early career, or pursuing qualifications or whatever, . And it cost, cost, cost time with my kids, for example.

I think they've forgiven me, we have a great relationship, but I, you know, there were things that I didn't do and time that I can't get back because I was working too hard. And certainly, you know, circles of friends are fairly small because, you know, didn't have that time. I was having that conversation with my daughter actually who's a junior doctor, so she's in her 2nd year as a junior doctor.

And how difficult it is in that environment, and I, you know, resonate with me to maintain friendships with people. Because you're on call or you know, you're on duty, or you, you know, you have to cancel plans or you can't schedule things because you don't know what your rota's going to be. And that plays back into this well-being, resilience piece that the, the way things are set up and expected, and, you know, the public expect the vets to be available 24/7, you know, they want evening surgeries, you know, they want, you know, to availability at weekends.

So you know, there there is all of these sort of complex pieces coming in, which you know makes it, you know, for the individual quite difficult. Like you do what you can and you do the best you can and you make the choices that are right for you. Sometimes that takes quite a lot of, bravery in its own right to say actually I'm not going to do this.

Because you've invested so much of yourself in this identity of veterinary surgeon or veterinary nurse or whatever, that it can be really, really hard, and again, you know. Doctors are the same, I think, you know, working in the NHS at the moment is really, really horrible, but walking away from that's really hard, so you keep going. And you either develop the armour, whatever that might be.

And that may be. You know, unemotional, cynical, you know, unengaged, robotic, all of those things, . But that you can't switch that on and switch that off, that, that spills over into the rest of your life, of course it does.

It's, it's definitely a, an issue and it's not an easy one to solve in, in 10 minutes, so it's good to see things like the RCVS initiative that brought everybody together to look at things like. The the resource issues, so yeah, it is, and it's there's, you know, these are complex situations and without an easy an easy answer, there's an easy answer, we've got it. Yeah.

And I'm, I, yeah, from, from sort of researching the book and sort of drawing my thoughts together there. Sort of understanding that these systemic issues. At least in part, come from the nature of the work we do.

Yeah, so, you can't. You know, systems find their own stability, and that stability is dictated in a, in a, organisational sense, often by the nature of the work we do, so. You know, some of the problems the veterinary profession faces are always gonna be there cos we're always gonna be a veterinary profession.

We're always gonna be knowledge professionals trying to, you know, manage animal welfare. With all of the paradoxes and complexities that brings and that then. Challenges, you know, and creates ways of being and and options for people, which some of which are.

Yeah. Easier than others. Clive, thank you so much, it's been really great to talk to you as always.

I would say to everybody, please do look out for Clive's book, Leadership in Veterinary Medicine, available at all good bookshops. I always say support your local bookshops, so maybe don't immediately jump to Amazon for it, . But yeah, I would, I would really recommend it, and we are hoping to do a webinar with Clive where he can expand on some of those leadership principles, which is, I think such an important area.

So Clive, thank you so much for giving me your time today and yeah, I look forward to seeing you soon. Yeah, my pleasure, great, great to chat, thank you.