Hello, it's Anthony Chadwick welcoming you to another episode of Vet Chat, the UK's number one veterinary podcast, and I'm so pleased to have an old friend and colleague, Owen Atkinson on the line today. Owen is the owner of the Dairy Vet Consultancy, working on the Cheshire Shropshire borders, very much looking at how can we do dairy farming and dairy vetting in a more strategic way. So, Owen, first of all, thanks very much for coming on.
We are of a similar vintage, as I was saying, I got kicked out of dairy dairy vetting quite early on in my career. You've managed to stay the course, and of course the business itself is 10 years old, which is always a testimony of success if you can have a business, you know, like ourselves as well, that's lasted over 10 years. We must be doing something right, mustn't we?
Well, you're starting morning, Antony. It's a pleasure to be here, but you're starting off with all the platitudes to butter me up, but I'm not your vintage. Well, I'm a little bit, I think I'm a little bit younger.
You're a 90s vet. Come on, I am. I qualified in 1994, yes.
I was 1990, so I'm not that far. But no, it's great to, it's great to have you on. And I think we wanted to talk today about just the changing role of vets.
I mean, I'm very much 4 years earlier than you, a disciple, at least partly of James Harriot. I mean, I wanted to be a vet from when I was 8. I remember, the old story of I was in the junior school playground and one of my friends stood on a baby sparrow by mistake and I said, oh, if I'd have been a vet.
I could have saved that sparrow's life. And then of course as I got a bit older, I started reading the James Harriot books, Gerald Durrell books, you know, a lover of Animals, and that was me sort of set on my way, didn't get into that school first time, but managed to get in finally, . And, and then obviously, .
Moved through, it was interesting. I was at a spivs conference, which was the, the year before you qualified, and I remember one of the vets said, who wants to be in mixed practise, and we all put our hands up and he said, well, within 5 years, the majority of you will be small animal vets and of course that kind of is what happened I think . Very much in the 90s, probably earlier than that, small animal predominated, but if we go back to the beginning of last century, of course, most vets were horse vets, weren't they?
Yes, so to answer your original question, I think I was more a more accidental vet than perhaps you described your path. I was really interested in biology. That was my, that was my thing, and I think I was more on the route to become a doctor, but I'm from a farming background and I'd been around cows and other livestock all the way through my childhood and then and and it was only last minute when I decided to apply for veterinary rather than for medicine.
Yeah. But yes, I was a fan of the James Harriot books as well, and of course that was Saturday night TV James Harriet was a big thing, I think for a lot of our generation. And it is interesting looking back at the history of of where the farm vet.
Evolved from because my I, I only found this out since becoming a vet myself, but my, I think it was my great, great grandfather. Was a horse that. And he had a son, which is my great grandfather, that he threw out of the house and he went into service where he met my great grandma.
They were both working in a big country house where they call it they call it in those days going into service, I think, yes, and he threw him out because his interest was in cars in the early days of cars, and he became a chauffeur and he met my great grandma who was a housemaid in his big country house. And he threw him out because he was a horse vet and he saw the car, the motor car, the automobile, as the enemy of his profession. So he threw him out of the house.
And in those days, as I understand it, of my great great grandfather, that's what vets were. It was before the, before vets were before the companion animal veterinary sector was even embryonic, I guess, in those days. And even before farm vets, so farm vets came about after the 1940s, 19 and had a big rise in the 1950s in the post-war years, which is the James Harriet era.
Yeah, and we're, we're a short-lived, we're a short-lived bunch really because obviously farm bets are on the decline now. You were joking earlier there's not many of us left, and that's true, you know, we're we're on the decline, having had a our, our huge growth in the 1950s and 1960s, probably peaked in the 1970s. And and then it's become the profession has moved into the more companion animal sector.
It's become more niche, I think that whole idea of even a mixed practitioner vet is becoming. Less and less common, isn't it, because obviously various categories of mixed practise. Some people do small and a bit of equine or or small and a bit of large animals, but that's becoming more difficult to do because those small farms don't exist anymore, do they?
Or not as much, not so much. I mean, I do a lot of work with vets all around the country, so I do still see lots of lots of mixed vets actually, . And it's interesting, you know, I'd love to know the answer to this question is what portion of dairy farm work, for example, which is my, that's my sector, you know, what proportion is done by what I would call dedicated dairy vets and what proportion is done by mixed vets, and I suspect it's still probably around 50/50, as in a high proportion is still done by by vets who would also do companion animal species because there's a lot of, there's a lot of the UK.
I mean, I live in Cheshire. Dairy heartland. So, you know, you've very much got your your dairy practise, your small animal practises, and your equine practises.
It's a very diversified profession. But there's lots of the country, and if you look in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland. It's a lot of the country which are kind of more rural and therefore maybe don't justify having dedicated small animal practises, and there is still that mixed that practitioner role.
It is interesting going back to your great great granddad who was a equine vet, of course he did get it right because. I, I do talk occasionally about the great horse manure crisis of the 1890s, which I'm sure you're aware of, which was a letter in the Times in the 1890s which said, you know, a bright spark had worked out, but within the next 10 to 20 years London would be 10 ft deep in horse manure and they actually did a conference in America to try and solve this problem and actually they all walked out, they couldn't work it out, they were all despairing. It's almost like a, A sort of climate crisis story book from 100 years ago and in the end, of course, the, the the clever people at places like the car came to our rescue and the rescued us and now of course the car is, is the big, yes, is the enemy part of the problem, but of course we're now creating electric cars and so on, so.
In a sense, that 40s and 50s vet, as we were saying from the James Terriot books, he was almost seen as a, a, a, a sort of lauded figure within the community and and treated with great deference when he came into the farm, and then that maybe did change in that sort of, well, and, and it was, you're right, it was a he in those days, it would be probably almost 100% a he, if not 100% he in those, in those 1950s. And Yes, so I talk sometimes about how, how the, how the farm vet role has evolved from perhaps if we call James Harrier the farm vet 1.0 and sometimes described as a me me relationship, so a lot of things have evolved, but part of the evolution has been that farmer vet dynamic which I'm very interested in that relationship piece.
And the, the farmer would have been in deference to the vet, you know, Mr. Harriot, sir, here's a bucket of hot water for you, sir. And then when I came along by, by, certainly by the 1990s, it was, I would call a VET 2.0.
Phase and I'm interested in the VET 3.0, which is where we are now and where we're headed, but vet 2.0, which, which if I could describe that because I think that typifies very much the profession that I graduated into, would be that the farm vet is a service provider.
A tradesperson. Someone who the farmer rings up because they're in difficulty and they want this, that and the other. They want a farm vet to come out and fix their cow with an LDA.
Oh, don't come before 3 o'clock because we'll be milking. Oh, don't come out, don't come after 5 o'clock because you'll be charging us out of hours. Oh, you will be OK if you manage by yourself, so don't, you know, don't send us an inexperienced new graduate.
Oh, when you come, could you bring a bottle of Marbasil and a box of this antibiotic tubes and a and a tub of that antibiotic tubes? That's epitomised the vet's 2.0, where the vet is, is certainly not lauded.
And if anything, the power dynamic is, is with the farmer because the farmer is calling the shots, not necessarily interested even in the vet's opinion. I mean, I'm, I'm OK, I'm being a little bit catastrophis in the relationship perhaps, but, but that would be classed as the UU relationship. The VET 3.0, which is the more collaborative relationship and the one that I'm always striving to achieve, is, is that there is no power dynamic in the same sense.
You are working as equals vet and farmer as professionals both. And you're working as collaborators, both recognising the strengths that each person brings, the professionalism almost that each person brings to the whole piece, which is to improve farming of animals. And that needs strategy.
And it's a totally different approach because it's not, it's, it's not the vet not being in the role of, of fixing things that are already broken, but the vet being there to provide a strategic input. In Maintaining and improving the welfare and the health of the animals. And now, Antony, I know this interests you, and now improving the health and sustainability of the whole farm and that's a growing role of the vet.
The farm vet is being involved in, in farm sustainability. From an environmental point of view as well. Well, I think that's really important.
The collaborative side, if we work together as a team, we're going to accomplish more than it were, almost adversarial, which I think, you know, can happen and of course healthy, yeah, and well, you actually, you know, I for a short time was on. Working as a farm vet and you could go on to some farms where you could see that it was a friendly relationship and some, as you were saying, where it was very much, you know, you are my servant, come at 3 o'clock. There won't be anybody around, you'll just have to get on and do yourself, which obviously is not helpful for anyone, and it's not a pleasant environment to work in, is it?
No, it's fair to point out I was catastrophis the relationship it's fair to point out that a lot of that vet 2.0, I'd still call it vet 2.0 where the vet is the service provider, is, is, is on a friendly basis as well.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously the majority of farmers are really lovely people. They're working on the land and they're, they're definitely, you know, adding to society.
I think that the point you were making about the strategic is really important because as we Start to think and having some time to think strategically and not rushing from one call to the next, you know, it's a milk fever then it's, you know, burstitis and so on. Even that sort of strategic look now, looking at things like antimicrobial resistance, we've massively reduced the amount of antibiotics we're using on farms, even dry cow therapy has changed over the last two years, and that is because. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, you've you've been able to have more time to, to pore over numbers and look at different ways of solving problems rather than, well, there's a bottle of Marbasil or a bottle of streptomycin, you know, this should sort your problem out.
Well, yes and no. I mean, I, I guess. I'm unusual in, in how I chose to, what I chose to do, Antony, in my career.
So I was a vet in practise for the 1st 25 years and 20 years, it must have been 20 years because I'm not that old. And it was 10 years ago. It was 10 years ago, almost to the day when I left practise to set up my consultancy business, Dairy Veterinary Consultancy, and one of the reasons I did that was because I felt at the time I wanted to do more of this strategic preventative work and yet what was holding me back was some of the baggage that I think you have as a farm vet in practise in the what.
How people perceive you, including farmers. Yeah, and I mean it was interesting. It was very telling that when I, when I left my practise and farmers obviously got to know that I was working out my notice period, and they asked me what I was going to do and I said, Well, I'm going to start my own consultancy business and what did that mean, etc.
And I tried to explain and it was, oh, that's a shame. 00, you won't be a vet anymore. 00, we'll we're sorry to lose you as a vet, you know, and they didn't seem that I would, they thought that I wasn't going to be a vet anymore.
And that was really telling, and that's kind of why I did it because I felt that I was being held back by the perception that everyone has, farmers included, of what a farm vet could bring to them, and that is someone who can mend. Broken animals fix problems fixed problems once they were in that problem situation and a lot of vets talked when I was at university, we talked about prevention rather than cure, and a lot of farm vets really want to do that type of work, prevention rather than cure, and yet the day to day demand from farmers unfortunately still today in 2023 is still. Cure.
It's still the phone going for, for, for sick animals, carvings, etc. And fertility work, which I would say is, is, is akin to doing cure because you're not planning for better fertility, you're dealing with the cows who are who aren't in calf and need to get in calf, and I don't see that as strategic. I, I don't see that strategic.
So, so yeah, I've, I've, I've I've perhaps not answered your question. Very clearly, because you were originally saying we've got more time now to do that strategic thing stuff. I think for farm vets that are still in practise, traditional practise, I think time is very much the enemy.
They don't have the time to do the stuff they would like to do. And perhaps it's not, you know, up until recently, it's not been. For a farmer to pay money to get somebody in to talk about their farm.
And I think that's the other side of it. You hit the nail on the head. You do what you know, as a vet, you're, you're in business.
You have to be in business to be, it's going to be profitable, otherwise it's not sustainable. And you do what people pay you to do and the demand is from farmers you know, they'll happily pay you for, for, for. I, I guess the more what I would call the traditional role, which is fertility work, and fertility work, etc.
And they're less likely to pay you for that overarching strategic role. It, it, it's . It's, it's a hard nut to crack, that is.
It's something which is changing and it's changed in the 10 years that I've been in my business. So a growing part of my business now is actually working directly with farms, but they tend to be large farms. They tend to be large businesses, and they're quite happy to pay my daily rate, which is, you know, it's a professional daily rate.
It's circuit 1000 pounds a day. And they will pay that for me to do training with their farm team or to look at, for example, last week I was at a farm looking at their foot health and they just wanted a day concentrating on that one issue, and they were happy to invest in that and that's really refreshing to see that. I would love to see more of it.
But I think you've been an early advocate of it and obviously with all of these sort of curves that we have, you have the early adopter, then you have more people looking at that. It makes sense, you know, as you said from university, prevention is is cheaper than cure, and so it's something we've talked about, but perhaps. We're not doing as much in the dairy industry as we would like, but we're probably doing more than we were 10 years ago.
We're doing more. I'm impatient. Yeah, you don't you?
Well, I have a little, I have a little say. I've got it on the wall in front of me actually. I made a little poster of it and it said, Be the change you would like to see.
Yeah, exactly, and I've tried to live by that. And you know, going back, the government has brought in, and I'm, I'm not sure how well they're working, the, the, elms, the environmental land management. Stuff which allows a vet to come in and I think spend a certain amount of time and the vet is paid by the government.
So at least that's moving in the right direction. I felt quite hopeful about it and then it sort of rumblings that it's maybe not. I, I mean, I always have mixed feelings about these things because, you know, other funded schemes to try and pump prime vets doing this kind of role.
Have occurred before. I'm not particularly familiar with the albums. I'm not in practise now, so I'm not, it's not, it's not a pot of money, if you like, that I'm interested in drawing upon.
And The flipside is, and this is perhaps what you're going to say, Antony, yourself, is that is that Unless the farmers paying for it themselves, there is a risk they don't value it. Yes, and that might sound trite, but I think it's true. And also it Is it enough?
To To stimulate the vet's profession as well ourselves to change our service offering because both sides of the equation have got to be there, you know, there's got to be the demand from the farmer, but we can do a lot as vets to create that demand by setting our stall out in a different way. And I think just a visit, you know, a 300 pound pot of money to pay the vet to go and do a visit, one visit. I'm not sure if it's enough to do it, but you know, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it will be a little bit of pump rhyming, and like I said I'm impatient. It might all help in my incremental steps to get to, to get to where I see the future being. I, I, I haven't chosen to sort of.
Take that funding myself and I'm not sure if it's enough by itself in any means. It, yeah, it's a really interesting point, isn't it, because as you say, this sort of change does take time, you know, you're 10 years into your business now, I remember coming and having a drink with you to discuss it 10 years ago and as I say, we're both still here, so we're doing something right. But .
Inevitably, even perhaps what your business plan was 10 years ago will have changed because of circumstances we've obviously had. COVID, we've had lockdowns, etc. All of these things are, and Brexit obviously wasn't a thing, 10 years ago, so all of these things have probably changed, some of what your business plan was talking about 10 years ago.
Yes, so I had a look at my business plan recently because it is 10 years and I came across it on my, on an old computer file. I came across this thing that I had written in 2008 actually. So I left my practise in 2013, but back in 2008 I was starting to sketch out a kind of future, a different future for myself, one that would be my dream, which isn't, which was prevention rather than cure.
And, and I kind of sketched out this business. I think I called it Vet sense. That was my, yeah, maybe I should have stuck with that.
It's a dairy veterinary consultancy. Yeah, well, it does what it says on the tin, doesn't it? Dairy veterans, yes, I, I've had the, the mickey taken out of me because it's a bit of a mouthful, but, it cuts down on spam emails.
Okins at dairy veteransource.co.uk.
But no, . It was surprising actually how close to that original plan that I wrote in 2008, 2009. I still am because I've kind of envisaged a different customer base for a start than just farmers, and that's been true, you know, my customers are other vets.
They are farmers, but they're also professionals within the in the dairy industry, which includes milk buyers. Feed manufacturers, semen companies, etc. The range of work I do is pretty much as I outlined I would be doing, which is Some training Some strategic planning, which sounds very vague, but it's quite a big part of what I do actually in terms of working with businesses to sort of look ahead and think, OK, well, you know, which way is this going and how can we, how can we, change our offering to meet, to meet that future, you know, that, that future, prediction.
Yes, I, I, I guess it was pleasing to think that I've managed to achieve some of those things that were in my dream. No, it's brilliant and, and I think it's also a testimony to. You know, we've got the the the Facebook group that Stayodiversify, and people sometimes feel trapped in a job and they don't know how to, to move on and I think we both have done similarly, you know, you, you started that in 2008, but it was 5 years before you made the jump.
I kind of fell upon webinars as an idea, and within 18 months had sold my practise so I more on it. I still did my dermatology and and I think it's a really important thing, isn't it, that. Sometimes people feel a bit depressed about work, don't want to be a best, and they take in desolation a precipitate step, whereas actually if you can strategize and plan out that there is so much that we can do with the degree.
We don't have to be physically touching animals every day. You've made a very good point, really, yeah, yeah, and and and actually you you make your best decisions when you come from a position of strength and happiness, don't you? You're right, it's not a good decision to just escape from an unhappy situation.
And I guess some people feel more trapped than others. I'm the type of person that You know, when you make a change, you're less likely to fear a change ever again, and I'm the type of person that's quite happy to make quite radical changes. I, you know, I've moved, before I did what I did, I, I, I'd had several jobs.
Within very good practises, but every change I'd made seemed to be better than what I was doing before, you know, and that was a positive reinforcement I had, so I was never afraid. Mind you, that's that's not quite true. I was going to say I was never afraid of making that leap.
I was hellishly afraid at the time because I was a partner and I was very secure and it was an excellent practise and anyone in their right mind would have stuck with what I already had and a lot of people said to me, Owen, you're crazy. So I was afraid, but I guess I had some confidence that Change Can be a good thing. You don't always know how it's going to end up, but it can be a good thing just to make a change.
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The world is quickening up, and if you are not comfortable with change, I think it makes life more and more difficult. So it's good to see that the, the family genes from your great great grandfather who threw his son out because it's not translated through to you or. At least it's been diluted over the diluted out.
Yes, there's been some hybrid vigour coming from other from other lines and things which is yes, and change. I mean this is another subject which is just so fascinating and it's something an area I'm, I'm very involved with is helping. So, so one of the things I do, Anthony, sorry to explain, I run, I do CPD for farm vets and, and one of the things I do is run a 4 day course called Herd Health Leadership.
Yes, and It is helping farm vets be agents of change with their farm clients, herd health leadership, and I think it's, it's hugely important. It's a skill that can be learned, and I have spent a lot of my years making mistakes along the way, and I want to kind of be able to pass on some of the things that I've learned to help younger vets, maybe people who are sort of 10 years qualified now who are just looking to farm vets who, who are looking to take their career to the next level. To, to just fast forward them in into that having more confidence to be a, a, a leader of leader of change with farm businesses.
I think it's really important and, and you know, somebody once said, the intelligent person learns from their mistakes, but the genius learns from other people's mistakes. So if we can have people like yourself as a coach who are passing on your received wisdom from 30 years as a vet, then that's got to be helpful? Well, I hope so.
29 years. I don't want to age you don't hit that 30 yet. I still got I still got some black hairs here they're quite yeah, I've been going grey for quite a long time.
I So With the change, obviously the needs or the, I think there's a movement to change the industry more there's there's sort of challenges in the with, well with things like, you know, one of my pet subjects is very much how do we make the industry more sustainable in every sense of the word, but particularly environmentally and you're talking the dairy farming industry I guess yeah yeah exactly and and dairy farming, I think. Potentially, you know, having spoken to, to, to capital vets has a, has a bad press and perhaps there are some of the things that we do need to change because we need to get them right, but actually there's other areas where perhaps the, the story that's being told is a bit misleading. I, I particularly look at things like, Even from, you know, a young vet 30 years ago, I always felt, why are we pushing our cars so hard that after 5 years, we have to call them, you know, would it not be better to push them less hard, for them to last 789 years, produce milk, and have them on, grass rather than on concentrates.
That seemed to me to be a more sustainable way, but of course if we look at that sometimes. From a carbon footprint perspective, people will say that's more heavy on the carbon than actually having a very intensive herd, which to me, Doesn't seem like it feels the right answer. I know that that is not scientific at all, but sometimes going with your gut feeling is, is also appropriate.
Well, I mean, you've touched on some really important points there, and, and one of them is that as a farm vet, I've not, I, I've not always felt proud to be part of the industry. I still don't always feel proud to be part of the dairy industry. Now, it's one of the reasons I did what I did, you know, I want to change things.
Again, be the change you would like to see. There are some things that I wouldn't attempt to defend. Within the dairy industry.
And yet they are as they are. It is as it is, and one of the things that I don't like to defend, I wouldn't defend, is, is the, is the high cow turnover rate, which I think you alluded to there, the culling rate. And in America, of course, you know, if you were listening to an an adviser who sort of comes from that American school of thought, high input high output, is we don't cull hard enough.
Oh your best cows are always the young generation, you know, to cull harder, cull harder. And one of my farmers I work with said to me recently, who, who, you know, his, his average age at culling is only 5 years old, said, oh, my consultant said, I'm not culling hard enough, I need to cull harder. And I said, well, where, where's the sustainability in the economics in that?
There isn't. It is a complicated situation as you then alluded to and described in that we have in Britain a very, very diverse dairy industry. We have everything from on the one hand, the high import high output all year round calving, let's call it the American system, Holstein herds housed all year round.
Doing 12,500 litres per cow per year. And then on the other hand, to the other extreme, we have the type of herd type which is epitomised by the New Zealand system, spring block calving. The cows are doing 4.5 to 55,000 litres milk per year, and they are some of them never housed.
Some of these farms are the cows are out wintered in the winter months during the dry period when the cows are dry, not dry weather, dry cow, and, and there are grazing systems. They're extensive and As you said, Gut feeling, and mine too, is that that is the most sustainable system. And truth be known, I'm going to put my cards on the table here, which might make me unpopular with some people.
That is my preferred system. If I was a dairy farmer and I had a choice of system, I would farm in that way. I think you get a better quality of life.
I think there's less stress. I think it's more profitable and it's more sustainable. However, it is more complex than that.
And of course we have what I missed out there is that the majority of farmers in Britain are somewhere in between those two extremes. So we've got a big pool of farms that are there. What I missed out there is, is that not every farm because of the environment in as in the geographical environment they live in and where their land blocks are located can farm in that extensive way because you need to have access.
The cows need to have access to all the fields. And so a lot of farms that have plots of land here, there and everywhere, and the cows can't have access to all the fields. So you know, there's those sort of localised geographic constraints.
And then Looking more holistically. There's A confusion, let's say, about what is the most sustainable approach, because there are some people, some advisors, experts who would say, well, the carbon footprint of your intensive farms that are doing 125,000 litre per cow is much lower than the carbon footprint of those extensive herds that are doing 5000 litres per cow because You have less cow overhead. In other words, if each cow is considered one methane producing unit, you're going to get a hell of a lot more milk out of less methane producing units from your high yielding system.
I think those calculations are flawed because they don't take into account then the next part of the big picture, which is, well, what are the inputs and, and how about the carbon capture of the, the, the, the pasture land that That they're associated with the grazing field, the grazing farms as opposed to the, the intensive farms that might have, for example, very high cost inputs such as soya, which in their own right has an environmental impact. So it's incredibly complex, and I'm not expert enough to know the answer. I am happy to work with both types of farm.
Both can be done very, very well. Both unfortunately can be done badly. Yeah.
So welfare is, you know, you can have a very extensive system where the welfare of the cows is very poor and an intensive system. I remember speaking to, you know, vets in the past who have managed these and, you know, welfare. Potentially can be very high.
Yeah, I mean you, you don't get 125,000 litres per cow in in in in a poor welfare system. It's impossible to do it. You've got to, you've got to be, I mean, it's a lot more complex.
It involves a high level of skill and expertise, you know, I guess the analogy might be this is, these are thoroughbred horses, the equivalent of that you're managing. As opposed to, not to do down the, the, the grazing cows, but as opposed to pit ponies. Not to do down pit ponies either.
But, but they're a more robust animals, so. Yes, welfare wise, again, it's a difficult one to call. I like to see cows outside grazing, as do a lot of farmers.
I, you know, and I think a lot of people like that, it's, it's, pastoral, isn't it? It feels like pastoral, yes, and I, and I think it's difficult to replicate the. The, the, the, the benefits of the outdoor environment inside.
However, it is possible and herds do it and with care. So for example, you know, this is a minor point, but having grooming brushes, for example, to overcome boredom, having plenty of space, I mean, very good lying surfaces. The reason why cows are kept inside on those, those, those high input systems is because it's impossible for a cow on those kinds of systems to meet its nutritional needs through grazed grass alone.
So of course if you're providing feed, not necessarily in concentrate but in form of what's called a total mix ration, which is, you know, silage mixed in with, with, with, with, with, well, straight, cereals, etc. And then. Then it makes sense to have them on an indoor system.
In fact, you can only do it on an indoor system, or if you're robotic and robot farms have a huge, a lot of welfare benefits to the cow because they're voluntary milking systems. The cow can come and go when she wants to be milked, and a cow giving a lot of milk can get milked more often, more frequently, which is kinder to her udder. And yet those lend themselves more to an indoor system, so it is complex.
I do like to see cows outside grazing, but that's not to say that cows indoors cannot have their needs met and be happy and live a fulfilling life as well. Well, as always, I, I think one of my locums once said to me, if you've got two vets in the room and they both agree with each other, then one of them is not a vet. It's, this is the conundrum, isn't it, that it's very difficult and I think as you get older you realise it that there are, it's not all black and white, there's a lot of grey in between, isn't there?
Yeah, it is all grey, and we rely on other experts, experts in this area. Like I said, it's working collaboratively again, isn't it, because it really relies on experts, environmental experts really to help us through this, this minefield, which is what is the most sustainable. And correct way to be farming our cows.
I went, it's been fantastic speaking to you as always, a wide ranging conversation, . From one old ved to a much younger one. Thank you for acknowledging that, yeah, you get you get you get the brandy point now.
But really appreciate your time and and thank you for all that you're doing in the industry because I think this strategic role that you've taken on in the last 10 years has has been really beneficial. For the whole cattle profession, cattle veterinary profession, so thank you. Well, thanks.
No, it's been a privilege to to speak to you this morning, so thanks for the opportunity. Thank you, Owen, and thanks everyone for listening. Hopefully see you on a podcast very soon.
Take care. Bye bye. Thank you.
Bye bye.
