Hi there and welcome to Vet Chat, a new podcast for the veterinary profession brought to you by the webinar vet. We're gonna discuss all things from clinical cases to hot topical debates. I'm your host Ben Sweeney, and for the first time in my life over the episodes ahead of us, I'm aiming to listen more than I talk, and I can't wait for you to join me for the adventure.

Welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today I'm joined by Anthony Roberts. Those of you who've joined us for our earlier episodes will note that we like to get some interesting facts about our interviewees. However, after having been self-admittedly sent into an existential crisis when faced with a challenge to find three such facts, Anthony canvassed the opinions of others at home and at work, to look for some insight.

The conclusion, however, Was that there were none. Alas, we've dug deep and discovered that he is a keen enophile, and for those of you who like me, needed to Google this term just to have the slightest of understanding as to what it means. Put bluntly, he likes wine.

He was also briefly challenged his sporting apathy as a child, where he excelled as an ice skater and spent a season as a chalet host at the university despite never having skied. So if you'll find yourself at a CPD conference in the Alps, feel free to introduce yourself to Anthony and discuss the quality of the complementary screw top wines that will no doubt be free flowing. So Anthony, thanks for joining us.

Now, your role is you are head of leadership and innovation for the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. So what does that actually mean as a job? Hello, Ben.

That that's a, a great starting question. So, back in 2015, we undertook the, the Vet Futures work together with the, the BVA. And two things that that that highlighted were that there was a sense that the profession wasn't putting enough emphasis on the, the development of, of leadership skills and the development of the, the next generation of leaders.

And also that there's profound change taking place in the, in the veterinary profession and that less the profession. Was open to and embraced and led the charge with innovation, there was a potentially could be left behind. So that then translated into a new strategic plan for, for the college where we put leadership and innovation at the heart of our, our Royal College work.

And we launched 22 initiatives. One was, was our CVS leadership, which is around Helping the profession to to develop those, those leadership skills and that embraces things like the Edward Jenner veterinary leadership course that we've developed and had almost 7000 vets go through, and also the the Vivet innovation programme, which we'll be talking about today. So really both of those are about empowering the profession to to take charge of the future.

To, to seize the opportunities that that creates, and it's a series of initiatives that really fall under our Royal College role of advancing standards. Right, and obviously sort of there are, there are some people across the profession who maybe perceive the Royal College as being a little bit stuck in their ways and potentially even a little bit old fashioned, but innovation is quite, you know, a cool and a, a modern term, so. You know, what would you say to people across the profession who who would maybe raise an eyebrow towards the Royal College at this particular moment?

Well, I mean, I would absolutely challenge that that perception that we're we're stuck in our ways and I think over the The last 5 years we've led some really groundbreaking initiatives, whether it's our, our work with Mind Matters initiative to support the mental health and well-being of the professions, whether it's the, the leadership work we, we do to support development of of leadership skills and those those non there's very important non-clinical skills that that help people to become great veterinary professionals or the work we're doing. Now around innovation, and I think innovation is a really interesting one for regulators. I think traditionally regulators have shied away from engaging with innovation, perhaps because of a fear almost for the sort of risk it inherently entails, but innovation is the fundamental mechanism through which products, services improve.

And through which standards can become higher and that's exactly what we want, as a, as a regulatory body. And I think, it's become very clear that with a very fast-paced technological change we're seeing today in every sector that that old approach of regulators to not engaging with innovation just, just doesn't work and actually. The sort of the best practise model that's emerging is that the regulators should take a proactive role in engaging stakeholders, fostering innovation, trying to understand.

The issues it raises so as to create a futureproof framework in which innovation that improves, in our case, animal health and welfare or or the lives of veterinary professionals delivering that, whilst at the same time, protecting the, the public. And, and if we don't take that approach, and we're not proactive, these changes will, will happen regardless, and the public and animal health won't be protected. So I think we really are on the, on the front foot with that.

I think it's absolutely right we we engage and I think that that's an example of some of the ways that we're not stuck in our ways. This is actually adopting the sort of the best practise approach to to this changing and dynamic market we're in. Yeah, I mean, I think you you're absolutely right in that, you know, the, the pace and the speed that that modern life is changing and the way that technology.

Is impacting on not just our own profession, but multiple other professions and industries across the world, you know, I think it, it really is paramount that, you know, we do have a front foot stance, as you rightly say there, and I think, you know, very much central to that is, is the fact that, you know, we have animal welfare and the standards that we, we want to uphold as a profession at the, you know, the centre point. Of all of that and obviously at the centre of all of this in the profession is, is vets and nurses that are performing that that that that on the ground day to day running of of of our sort of veterinary interface with the general public and why is it that you think vets and nurses are such good innovators? So that's really interesting.

I think there are two things that make people greater at anything and allow things to happen. It's. It's the skill to do whatever it is you want to do and, and the will to do it.

And I think on both counts, vets are, are fantastically placed. So every single day, vets are faced with complex problems, incomplete information, and on the basis of that, they have to really try and identify what the problem is, to create a solution for it. And if that solution doesn't work or they need more information to very quickly do that and adjust the approach they're taking.

Now that sort of set skill set and that methodology is absolutely at the heart of innovation. When you're, you're innovating, you're trying to really understand what the customer need is, what the problem or pain point is there that they face. Come up with a solution for it, test that solution.

If that solution doesn't work, iterate and come up with something new. So what vets do every day, what part of their innate skill set is with some very minor adjustments, exactly what you do to innovate. Now, on the sort of the will side of things, well, innovators are not happy with the.

Status quo. They, they want to make things better, they want to understand their surroundings and improve things. Now, as a science-based profession, there's, there's always that sort of natural curiosity that vets have to understand things better, but also at the vocational side, of course, vets want to make things better for, for the animals they serve, for the people around them.

And so you have that almost perfect combination of skill and will with, with vets and innovation, and that's what makes it such an exciting. To be, to be working in. Yeah, yeah, I mean, certainly, you know, you only have to look at how many times people in practise day to day just talk about a certain problem and go, well, actually, you know, it's not just talking about the problem, but it's actually, you know, people do present so many solutions on a day to day basis, and I think, you know, as, as you rightly point out, as a profession, the members of it are so good at pivoting on clinical presentations all of the time and treatments for those clinical presentations that actually, you know, it is just applying that skill set to.

Almost applying it to a different vertical really. Absolutely. So, obviously you've had a lot of experience of working in this field of innovation within the, the, the veterinary sphere, but you know, what, what do you makes, you know, a good innovation?

Yeah, I mean, in innovation comes in such a wealth of of different forms. I think it's very easy to sort of focus down on the, on the tech side, because, you know, it is that sort of digital revolution, that, that data driven revolution, the sort of. Silicon Valley led technology that people are, are aware of and which grabs the headlines, but innovation can really be anything which adds value for the customer, so addresses a problem better, provides more value, is more convenient, is, is more accessible.

So, you know, it's very hard to sort of pinpoint what makes an excellent innovation, but I think, you know, anything which is adding value, anything which is improving a service. And then that can be a whole range of things. It could be the way, you know, vet practise communicates the value it adds.

It can be in the processes they have. It can be around sort of the, the, the clinical side of things and adopting, approaches to to quality improvement or of course it can be the, the totally new business models that are tech driven for the, the delivery of, of veterinary services. So I think, you know, taking a holistic approach, thinking about all those things that that innovation means.

And really thinking about what are those things that really address a fundamental problem and add value, to, to the people who are delivering that service or, or paying for that service. And obviously, you know, as, as part of an outcome from the Vet Futures work, you know, Vivet was, was formed, and you've obviously been, you know, front and centre and really spearheaded that with the team at the Royal College there as, you know, this network for innovation. But, but, you know, why is that project so important to you when, you know.

Have you seen any real successes and, and, and, you know, points of encouragement to come out of your involvement there? Yeah, so the animal health industry, I think really is on the verge of an innovation revolution. So we're seeing new technologies developing exponentially, new business models emerging, the sort of more investment in the sector than than perhaps ever before.

And then meanwhile, the humanization of pets, people want to be closer to their animals before they want to treat their health like their own. And another changing sort of demand of consumers is for, increased convenience, for, being able to access, services very quickly. So you, you sort of got this, this combination, the one hand of the factors that allow the delivery of care very rapidly changing, and on the other hand, we have what the consumer wants changing very rapidly, and I think over the next decade, there'll probably be more change in, in this market and the delivery of veterinary services and have been for the last.

50 or so years. So I think these are genuinely exciting times, and there is the emergence of technologies, business models and so on that potentially present veterinary surgeons with huge opportunities to, to improve the services they provide, to, to engage with their clients, to become closer to them, and to facilitate the access to, to veterinary care. But to really seize those opportunities, vets need to be at the centre of innovation in animal health.

And I think that that's why Vivet's so exciting because, you know, of course, these changes will be, will be difficult, they'll be disruptive, but if vets lead that change, if they embrace it, and if we as a regulator can can get our regulatory framework right, so that innovation can be, you can foster, or we can foster innovation and at the same time protect the consumer, then we have, you know, really exciting and unprecedented opportunities ahead to improve quality, efficacy, accessibility, and so, you know, just. Feels it's, it's, it's a really exciting time to be involved in this, and the opportunities ahead are, are great. So, you know, what's been great working with the, the profession, showcasing some of the things on the horizon, and then working with vets to help them, apply some of those innate skills we've talked about around innovation, give them some of the innovation methodology and understand how to sort of map their skills onto that and, and then, you know, empowering the profession to go away and, and.

Take control of this future. Yeah, and obviously, you know, often some of these best innovations do come from that direct experience or or involvement in something that is, you know, creating a pressure point or a problem for that particular audience. Now obviously, you know, we've touched on the fact that as vets and nurses, we are natural problem solvers, but to those people who who've got ideas and perhaps don't really know where to go with them or how to progress with them, you know, what, what bits of, of insight and.

Would you give to those individuals to, you know, to, to get their ideas moving forwards? Well, I mean, naturally I'd I'd point people to the vet resources we have as a as a starting point. So we have a fantastic websiteitevivet.org.uk and we have a whole suite of resources there to help people turn ideas into innovations.

We we also have a workshop series and everything from that series we've then published and made available for free online. So there's there's a great set of Resources there if you just don't know where to start, or even if you're quite far down the process but want to know the, the next steps. But I suppose in the, in the most general terms, I think the, one of the mistakes people make is to have an idea but then not want to, to talk about it.

And I think lots of people have lots of ideas. The way you need to start getting those unstuck and to turn them into innovations is to talk about them, to make those cross pollinations, or those to discuss with people, you know, is this a problem you. Phase two, would this solution work and then to really start to understand is that idea something viable?

What might I have missed here? What's the problem I'm trying to, to solve? And there are lots of tools and methodologies you can go through to help you through that process, but really, you know, don't keep it to yourself.

I think people are terrified of this, this idea that I might give my idea away and that's the end of it. But often if you don't tell anyone, it, it becomes nothing more than an idea, actually, and you know, it's through those discussions, through that testing. Through the, the sharing that you can start to really think, well, how can I build that business model around it?

What would the delivery of this look like? Who do I need to engage with and to start to map out that process to turn something from an idea to something which is an innovation, you can build, you know, a, a delivery system, a pricing structure around that actually start to sort of capture some of the value that that that could have. Yeah, and I think there's this sort of, you know, we almost as a profession.

And have this potential problem of of per per perfectionism that does penetrate through through some members of the veterinary community and almost that difficulty in an innovative world is that, you know, in order to progress an idea, you know, you do need to, to learn to fail, and you know, and certainly that old adage of business in that, you know, you fail fast and you fail cheaply, in that side of things, but, but you know, all of these failures are actually, you know, positives in terms of your discovery. What doesn't work, and I think, you know, it's so easy for people to be discouraged by short-term failure, but actually that's helping them in their longer term goals. And I think that that's something that, you know, is, is, is absolutely to be encouraged for people to, you know, just have a go, don't you think?

I, I think you're, you're absolutely right and sort of the, the latest thinking in, in terms of how, how you sort of iterate those ideas and how you develop a, a startup in particular. It is about you know getting something out there, testing it, iterating, and, and as you say, failing, failing fast and with the, the minimal impact. Now, I absolutely understand why in the veterinary context that that is an extremely difficult mindset to, to get your head around and, and particularly because of course, animal health and welfare has to be paramount and you don't want to do anything which might risk that first do no, no harm, .

And I think that's where, where one of the, the roadblocks is that, you know, in the medical professions, quite rightly, the approach to, to change and innovation is to prove something, so whether that's testing, you know, a drug, for example, and then deploy it, whereas the latest thinking when it comes to particularly sort of technological innovation, startups and so on is to deploy something, get out your minimum viable product, and then prove it, or scrap it and come out with something different. And it, it, it, it's a very different approach, a very different mindset, and I think they, of course, you know, we wouldn't ever recommend. You're testing things that could be, could be dangerous out there for animal health and welfare, but there were different, you know, different types of innovation, the, the sort of innovation around the business model, say, or around approach to marketing, whatever it may be, you know, you, you can quite easily do that sort of deploy, then prove because there isn't the inherent risk there, whereas when it comes to clinical innovation, then, then a different methodology is required, but I, I, I can understand very clearly why there are.

You know, why there's resistance and concern there, and that, that, that's quite, quite right. I think 11 point to dispel though is we sometimes hear it said that the veterinary professions, you know, are slow to innovate or that, you know, they don't invace innovation. I mean, I think that's, that's fundamentally untrue.

And you only need to look at how veterinary practise has evolved, the quality, you know, of service of diagnostics you can get out of treatments, vets are fantastic innovators and fantastic adopters of innovation. I think the, the interesting issues start to emerge when you look at the different types of innovations, and most of that innovation has been. Sustaining, it's, it's delivering a higher quality service at a at a higher, often at a higher price, but but but sort of continuing that trajectory to improve now where there's the, the interesting change we start to see now is the emergence of more disruptive innovation coming into the market.

So that's things that are usually delivered at a lower cost. They are a lower quality initially than cons. Consumers would accept they're often delivered in a more convenient and accessible way and it's very easy to sort of discredit such innovation.

I mean, the classic example is the emergence of digital photography and you sort of rule it out because the quality is so. So poor it's never going to get the mainstream, but then very, very rapidly that starts to improve and goes on that sort of trajectory of, of higher and higher quality and starts to sort of erode the market that's there. Now that sort of innovation for a medical profession, when you have standards to uphold, when you have animals to look after, you can't accept things that are, are low quality or or suboptimal is is very difficult.

Because of that, that sort of inflexion point when suddenly, you, you know that that may become of a quality that is acceptable or is high enough, and so how you as a profession prepare for that to understand the impact and to understand at what point that's proved enough to adopt is, is, is, is an extremely challenging, . See, we have that real sort of almost unique situation as a profession where, you know, we are a service industry, but we're also, you know, a health and welfare profession. So there's that real interesting sort of juxtaposition of offering value and improving customer experience to our clientele, whilst at the same time not compromising animal health and welfare.

And, and do you perceive that as as potential. You know, being a sort of limiting factor or a slowing factor to veterinary innovation, or is that something purely for us to be, to be held accountable and really ensure that, you know, we, we make genuinely brilliant products to improve the experience at all avenues of sort of veterinary practise? It's really, it's a really interesting issue and and and a complex one.

There's one that we explored some length at our innovation symposium. Last October in Manchester and you know, when faced with this sort of rapid change, this changing consumer group where convenience is the new loyalty, where you really have to provide accessible, easy to access services that meet their needs. The traditionally, what you would do is, well, you know, you really start to focus entirely on, on the customer needs.

You become totally customer centric, you meet all those. Pain points, but of course, you know, in the veterinary sector that that doesn't always work. That doesn't necessarily, you know, the the the customer or clients it isn't necessarily aligned with what's in the best interests of the animal's health and welfare.

Yet at the same time, unless those consumer needs are met, then that animal will not probably be seen by the, the vets because the customer won't take it there, they'll they'll take it somewhere else or do something else with it, so. So it is a real challenge. There's a complex tripartite relationship between the veterinary professional, the animal who's interested in ultimately serving, and the, the client who, who brings that animal to them.

And I think one of the challenges we're, we're beginning to see is because of this sort of macro trend of the humanization of pets is more interest from externally as to how people could, you know, come into this market, whether investors or new products. And we're starting to see some. You know, interesting new products that address consumer needs pain points in in that sort of scenario, but there isn't necessarily the veterinary involvement in their development, and there isn't necessarily, you know, a vet involved in their, their delivery, but because they're meeting a a consumer need, they, they could very easily start to to gain traction and so how does the profession.

You know, be the defender of, the advocate for what's important for the animal whilst at the same time meeting those, those customer needs, and it, it's extremely difficult. Now, of course, the animal's health and welfare always has to be paramount, but in order to meet that. You know, you, you need to also address what the customer has.

So you know it's challenging, it's complex, it's one of the areas where we're we're looking at, and I think it's an area for, for debate, and I would, I would love, you know, I'd welcome feedback on, on this as we sort of develop our thinking in this regard. Yeah, and I think it's obviously very interesting and topical at the minute, given the review of, you know, the, the phrase under our care, you know, that such innovations that are. Starting to penetrate the marketplace at this moment in time, are potentially giving us this opportunity to, you know, engage with clients and and and with pets and and animals that, you know, currently don't have a touch point with the profession and, you know, potentially, you know, do end up becoming part of this under our care, where previously, you know, they were far outwith of our own remit.

Yes, and I think you. But some of the, the issues that are are sort of generally being being discussed on the innovation front as well, is there a section of the population that is, you know, not vaguely seeking veterinary care or or only see it when they absolutely have to have it and how can almost that that market be expanded for the benefit of animal health and welfare so that veterinary advice is not just in the sort of preventative. Healthcare or not just in the putting things right when they they go wrong, but a vets involved, say in the process of you know helping someone select their pet or answering.

Questions about how to look after it or its behaviour, and I think you know there is an opportunity with with some of this technological change, not just to sort of focus on the, the medicine, but to start to expand the realm of what vets do for the benefit of animals into the the sort of ongoing health, welfare, management of pets, and I think it's quite particularly things like. You know, selecting a pet, I mean that, that, that, that is an area where vets should be able to provide the most incredible advice, but I mean I would, I would imagine that that most vets would be, you know, surprised if someone phoned up and asked to make an appointment and then the receptionist said, well, what, what's the animal, and they said, I haven't got one. I mean, I'm not even sure how that would be sort of logged in the.

I in the practise management system, but you know, why not? And, and I think that that would be of benefit to, to everyone, and I think it's exciting some of the opportunities that technology presents here. Obviously it's great, we, you know, we already know that we're a very well trusted profession, and obviously the great side of that is, you know, we do have the backing of the public and we can really build on that relationship because we already know that the groundwork has been done.

So, but obviously lots of things that we could. Go on and chat about Anthony, but there's been lots to take away from this, and I just wonder, you know, if you can just close for us, just looking at, you know, what's, what's really in store for Vivet as, you know, we look forwards into the future, you know, what can we see coming from the the whole project moving forwards? Sure, so we've always had three streams.

The first has been showcasing innovation, and we'll continue to do that. So through case studies, through blogs, through the sort of intelligence we gather to engaging with innovators in the market, we will then. Help the profession to to see what's changing, what the impacts might be, what best practise could, could look like, and we've got an interesting year ahead with with events and casesies lined up with that.

But we're also really keen on the flip side, and I think this is where we have some more work to do, and again, would welcome feedback on ways to do it is to help better showcase the profession to innovators. So I talked about those people who were out with the profession, who are now creating products. Services for for animal owners to address their issues.

Now, how can we, you know, make it that if anyone wants to develop anything in animal health, the first thing they think of is, well, let's go to the veterinary profession. They're, you know, they're experts, but they're also welcoming and open to those, those discussions. I'd like to try and sort of do more on the other side of that, that, that showcasing piece of work.

We've always had a stream around accelerating innovation, so that's taking those innate skills we talked about and helping. Vets and vet nurses understand how they can apply those, in the, in the innovation space, and we have about to release a whole programme over the course of the year of, of workshops, webinars, and other resources that focus on the various aspects of the innovation process from, you know, understanding problems. Marketing the entrepreneurship as opposed to entrepreneurship, how to get funding for your business, and each of those will be sort of small workshops and masterclasses that people can come to their interest in that particular area, but also the resources that that will then give us that we could put on the website will create that sort of holistic picture of what that innovation journey looks like.

And then of course, you know, we, we too at the RCVS, they're not through the, the Vivet programme but led by our standards committee, as, as you touched upon are about to launch our, our review of, of Uncare and 24 hour 7, and that's going to be a. A huge piece of work and we we would absolutely encourage everyone in the profession to to contribute to that and to give us your views as we go through the, the call for evidence and consultation process. I can't thank you enough for being involved today, Anthony.

I think, you know, it's it's such an exciting time, as you say, in the profession. There are so many projects and innovations that are penetrating all aspects of, you know, companion farm, equine work, exotic work, and. Even, you know, the paraprofession works that are going alongside veterinary services, so I would 100% advocate anybody who's got an idea that they think might make a difference, that maybe just want a bit of guidance to get in touch with the team at Vivet and yourself.

I mean, I know from the conversations we've had previously, you know, everyone is very forthcoming with, with insight and with help. So from my point of view, and, and it's a big thank you, and, and yeah, really excited to see what's, what's ahead of us all. Oh, thank you very much, Ben, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today.

Thanks for joining us for today's episode of Vet Chat. If you've enjoyed listening to my dulcet scouse tones as I interview people much more intelligent than myself, then please do click follow and join us for future episodes.