Good evening, everybody, and welcome to our Thursday night members webinar. My name is Bruce Stevenson, and I have the honour and privilege of chairing what promises to be a heartbreaking but enlightening, presentation tonight. I don't think we've got any new people on tonight, but, just in case I've missed anybody, if you wanna ask a question, just remember hover your cursor over the screen.

The Q&A box will pop up. Just click on there and type in your questions, we'll hold them over to the end. So tonight's presenter is Caroline Allen, and she's the chief veterinary officer for the RSPCA.

Previously, she spent 3 years as the RSPCA London Veterinary director, and prior to that, she worked in private practise for 18 years. Caroline is on the RCVS council and is a committee member of the Association of Charity Vets. Caroline, welcome to the webinar vet and it's over to you.

Hi Bruce. Hi everyone. Thanks so much for joining me on this autumnal evening.

So I'm really looking forward to doing this presentation today and taking your questions on a topic that, you know, obviously is very close to my heart. So, I want to just talk a little bit about the objectives today, . Hopefully, the aim is to just give vets sort of some confidence in dealing with cases of suspected cruelty and neglect and really empower you and and nurses as well, of course.

I will do a little bit about the law, and I'm gonna try not to make that too, too dry, but I do think it's important because I think that actually the law is a really big part of empowering vets. So I'm gonna talk about how the Animal Welfare Act, which is the key law in this area, what it means and how it affects you. And I'm gonna talk about how the RSPCA works as well, because I think there is a lot of misunderstanding around there, and, you know, that can really.

Affect affect the relationship, which is an absolutely critical one. You know, the RSPCA is really, really keen to work more closely with vets and really build up a better understanding on both sides. And then hopefully we'll be in a better position to support each other.

So, we've got a little poll to start with. I'm gonna send myself back a few years to when I was in practise, you can just think about last week, when maybe you were in the middle of evening surgery, it was 5:30 on a, on a Friday, and, you know, you're thinking about your weekend, you're not on call, and In appears this dog with its owner, you haven't seen it before. Apparently been owned by the owner for 10 years, and the owner is worried because the dog has not been eating for a few days.

That was the presentation. It's not a very happy dog. It's pretty depressed, it is responsive.

It's underweight and it's just in a generally poor condition. It's got some really nasty skin lesions, and, and this is an this is an RSPCA, animal. This is an RSPCA case.

And you don't really like the look of those too much, you know, you think that they, they could be burns. You really want to admit the dog for treatment and investigations, it's not in a good condition, but obviously, you know, PTS on, you know, in the dog's best interest is something that you do discuss because it really is in quite a bad way. So You go through this with the owner, but unfortunately those conversations do not go well.

He does not want to pay for any treatment and just came in because he wanted a job of antibiotics. How dare you suggest putting his beloved dog to sleep, and he is taking it home now. You calmly explain that this is not advised, but he is now getting quite up, you know, roughly handling the dog, just generally shouting.

So, you know, the question is, what would you do? So, we've got a few options and thank you, Bruce, who's popped up the pole for me there. You can see the options, so the first one is, you know, it's, the dog belongs to the owner, it's up to him, you know, he can take the dog.

This is something, the second one is something that I, that I have seen a little bit more of sort of recently that you let the owner take the dog, but you know, you don't want to get in trouble, so you ask him to sign a disclaimer that that is against your advice. You let the dog go home and call the RCCVS on Monday, as you can't get through to the RCVS on a Friday, and you need to check with them that it's OK to break confidentiality. Or you don't allow the owner to take the dog home until he's paid for the treatment that you recommend, or the final one is to call the RSPCA.

So I think some of those questions have just slightly run off the end there, Bruce, but hopefully by going through them, you can see the options and if you'd just like to . Put down what you think you'd do. Yeah, so folks, it's quite simple.

Just click on the answer that you think most represents your opinion as to what the right answer is. And we'll give you sort of 45 seconds or a minute or so to, to click on that and then we will release the the poll and we'll reveal those answers. So, quite simply, just click on the answer that you believe is the correct one.

It is anonymous, so there's no pointing fingers or right or wrong marks or anything else. It's just a an opinion poll and it will help Caroline just get a feedback of what the general feeling is of the people that are on the webinar. So another 8 seconds or so and then we'll stop the poll.

Yeah, no, no judgement at all, because I think, you know, I would have done a very different thing at the beginning of my practise career than I would do now. Right, so let's stop that poll and share those results with you. Can you see those, Caroline?

OK, well, that's really promising. That's great. You know, I think.

I think in this situation, you know, I would go with the 82%, but, you know, I think hopefully through this webinar we can explain that process to you. And, you know, I think the 18% is certainly something that I have seen, you know, a, a fair bit, . And we can discuss, you know, about why maybe the vet is actually empowered to do a little, a little bit more than that in this situation.

So great, if we can close the poll and let's Go on. So, the really important thing, I think, for vets, you know, and veterinary nurses to understand, particularly vets, because those who specified in, in the law. But the law is on your side as that animal welfare professional, as the advocate for the animal.

And I know that in practise, you know, there's, there's so much tension between, you know, the animal, the owner's needs, the business needs. But when it comes down to animal welfare, the law does set out, you know, that, that the vet, what the vet says goes. Because if you believe an animal is suffering or likely to suffer and it's, if it's circumstances do not change, then the law really clearly sets out what can be done.

. You know, and, and as much as other people can get upset, it's in the law. So now, I think, a really important point to say here is, is that I'm not saying you should always be invoking the law and calling the RSPCA. You know, we don't have the resources for a start, and actually we don't want to get into this adversarial situation, you know, a lot of the time people get themselves in this, in these situations through.

Not understanding, not wanting to face up to the reality of an old pet that's in a really bad way, really struggling with guilt, all sorts of other things going on there. So it is always better to work with clients where you can. Education, understanding is always going to be preferred over punishment.

But knowing in the back of your mind what the law really, the power law gives you, and that actually really, it is your job to ensure pets' welfare, I, I think it's really empowering and can really help those conversations. But, you know, in some circumstances, and I've only needed to do it a few times, pre RSPCA, you know. You do need to call the RSPCA.

There are bad people who abuse pets, and there are situations where, you know, you do need to take it to the next level, but I'm certainly not saying that is something that should be frequent. So what sort of factors, you know, do you want, do you want to consider before sort of invoking further support, you know, is further support required first of all, you know, actually, is this a situation you can resolve yourself? Could the law have been broken, you know, and particularly sort of quite deliberately?

Could other animals or people be at risk? I think this is a really important one. You know, if you've got an animal that's very neglected, but, you know, actually it was an elderly person who, who really didn't want to let the animal go.

And, you know, you have the conversation and, and they understand, and they're very upset and they understand. That's one thing. If, you know, there are potentially lots of other animals in a similar situation at the house, then you may want to take a different approach.

So, yeah, is there, and is there an animal still suffering that you really don't think it's right to, to let that go on? So I think they're really key factors to consider. So, if you're really answering yes to any of those, particularly several of those, then it's about what, who is the appropriate agency, you know, understanding what they can actually do, because there is quite a lot of misunderstanding about the role of the RSPCA.

And also, I know something that really comes up quite frequently, you know, I see it on Vett Voices and and other places, is, do I need consent? And I think the GDPR and the whole kerfuffle around GDPR has actually been quite dangerous because it's made people think that they can't report and that really is not the case. You know, GDPR consent does not override the responsibility towards animal welfare, and we'll come on to talk about that in a little bit more detail, and hopefully I can reassure you.

Now, this is not a webinar about non- accidental injury, because that could be a whole webinar in its own right, but I think it's important just to mention it here. Because I think we don't like to think that our clients could have done something deliberate to their pet. It's just not often in our, you know, even in our differentials, and I just think that it It is something sadly, that does need to be in your differentials in some situations, and there are some things that just a particular flags, and I would say, you know, trust your gut.

If something doesn't look right, you know, then it is reasonable just to question that. And, you know, animal abuse happens across a very wide sort of segment, you know, across society. There's, there's not a profile of an animal abuser, you know, if there was, it would be much easier.

So, you know, stories that don't fit, delays in the seeking attention or just a, a, a lack of concern, . In injuries that are too severe to be explained by the history, you know, really typical things, cats falling downstairs, you know, it just doesn't really happen. Breaking legs, falling off of beds, fracturing their skulls, falling off of the sofa.

These are all excuses that we've heard in cases that we've dealt with, and, you know, I certainly haven't seen any genuine cases. I don't think where that has happened. So there are just some little flags there.

If you get repetitive injuries, then that's a, a strong index. And, you know, certainly, rib injuries, you know, if you end up, you know, if you take a chest X-ray, and you're seeing various stages of rib injuries, that's always a real flag. And it can sometimes be missed because people will shop around with different vets.

It can be across multiple animals. So, you know, it, it. It is quite a tricky one, but I think it is just about trusting your gut.

If you, you know, I'd really recommend, you've got interest in this area, well, actually, I think anyone should have a look at the links group website. The links Group, I mean, RSPCA is part of that along with lots of other, you know, amazing charities. It's chaired by Paula Boyden from the Dogs Trust, and we work with, charities in the, in the human sector as well.

Looking at the link between animal abuse and human abuse. Because, you know, we certainly know cases where the RSPCA has gone in, and it's because someone's called the RSPCA that really severe child neglect and abuse has been discovered. Also, domestic abuse is, you know, very linked with this.

So, the links Group, do take a look, and the links Group frequently doing webinars as well. We, we did one fairly recently, so something you could refer back to as well. So what can the RSPCA do?

Well, the RSPCA is a charity, first thing to say, we, we don't have any statutory funding, and we don't have any statutory powers. And really, you know, we, we've changed a lot in the last kind of, I guess 10 years, moving from something that tried to very much be like that, that animal please, an army like. To a sort of softer, you know, it's very much about advice, guidance, signposting, you know, working, you know, with mental health charities, social services, trying to sort of, you know, really get a multi-agency approach because many of these situations are complicated.

So, you know, that is an awful lot of, you know, the time that our inspectors, inspectors spend is really trying to give that. Support, checking in and giving support, but, you know, we do get involved in the more serious side of things, and we will assist the police in seizing an animal. We can't do it ourselves.

That's quite a big misunderstanding that we have a power to go in and take out an animal. We don't have to do that with the police. Now, it's important to note that in Scotland it's different.

Their inspectors have powers, but they don't prosecute. They hand the file over to the procurator fiscal. Whereas in England and Wales, we can't seize the animal, but we investigate and we prosecute under the Animal Welfare Act.

So there are some differences if you're in Scotland, have a look at the SSPCA . Who are, you know, a great organisation that we work very closely with. So our our inspectors investigate more than 130,000 inquiries of cruelty and neglect per year.

A tiny, tiny proportion of that go forward to prosecution. So it really is reserved for those very serious cases. Now, I said I was gonna go into a little bit of the law.

I have said it out in the way that it is in, in, in the law. A little bit wordy, but I think, you know, I'm gonna try and just go through it to demystify it, because it's actually, you know, when you break it down, it's actually pretty straightforward. So, yeah, this is the key legislation that the RSPCA uses when we are taking forward prosecutions.

So, and there's two main parts or sections of the Animal Welfare Act that we use. The first one that we use, which is, you know, probably the main one, is what we call section 4. So as we talk about section 4 offences.

And that is where a person has caused unnecessary suffering to an animal, and that is an offence. So, that person has to be responsible for the animal. Now, that, that can create problems for us, actually proving who is responsible for an animal or who caused the animal to suffer.

That is one reason why prosecutions sometimes don't move forward and can really frustrate vets. But, you know, we, we have to be able to prove who was the, who was the actual person responsible at that time. And then That person either does something or doesn't do something, which causes the animal to suffer.

And has allowed that to happen. Where You know, it, it It would have been reasonable to avoid it. So, you know, I think that's all fairly common sense, you know, the, the definition of suffering is simply what is in the Oxford English Dictionary.

There's nothing, no special fancy, fancy terms there. You know, it is just an everyday sort of definition. So, you know, someone has either done something or not done something, you know, which has caused suffering and they couldn't have avoided that.

Hopefully that makes sense. So when we talk about unnecessary suffering. It is about thinking about whether that suffering could have been reasonably avoided or reduced.

So, you know. Have Have they not, you know, got pain relief when a normal person would have got, would have got pain relief, you know, it's obviously a, a fairly obvious one. You know, actually, should they have fed the dog is a horrifically common scenario that we come across.

And Another important point is whether the conduct concerned was in the er was that of a reasonably competent person. And I think this is where as vets, you know, we actually are in a good position here because we know what most of our clients would do. We know that most of our clients would feed their animal.

We know that most of our clients would, you know, come in before their animal was in, you know, a really horrendous state. You know, that is what most people do, but there are some who don't. And that is when the suffering will be unnecessary.

Reasonably competent, I've got a picture of a cat here which is an interesting scenario. The, the owner of this cat was prosecuted. The cat had a very nasty wound, and she'd been treating it with manuka honey.

Now, you know, you might think, yeah, you know, putting a little bit of manuka honey on a wound, you know, reasonably, an owner might do that. The wound was down to the bone and extremely severe. And I think that that is not something that we would expect a reasonably competent person to do.

And, and, you know, there, there was, you know, no taking advice, you know, and actually, that owner did go on to, to be prosecuted for that. The other section of the Animal Welfare Act that we tend to use is section 9, and when The Animal Welfare Act sort of came out. This was really the game changer for us.

We'd always had to, in the past, wait for suffering to occur, which was obviously super frustrating and not very good for the animals. But now, we have these welfare offences, where there is a duty of care on the person responsible for that animal. So, it kind, the aim is it kind of has a preventative element.

And there's one offence, which is failing to meet the needs of an animal. And how do we know the needs of an animal? Well fortunately, they are all set out in the DA codes of practise.

And again, it is about people taking reasonable steps to meet those. So they don't go to practise are obviously all online now, but you know, bookmark those pages, make sure you've had a look at them, because they are really useful. And they are the, the basis of of section 9.

And I'm sure you'll all be aware of the welfare needs of an animal. There's more detail in the codes of practise, but we know about the five welfare needs for a suitable environment, suitable diet. Ability to express normal behaviour patterns, the need to be with or without other animals, and protection from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

A one is obviously, you know, really critical one where our vets will become involved, but as you can see from these pictures, you know, we frequently come across. Sites with really multiple Section 9 offences. And I would say that in terms of prosecution, you know, we take many more under Section 4, under Section 9, a lot of circumstances, that is around advice, but where you have got multiple Section 9 offences together, you know, Hoarding hoarding situations, puppy farm situations and all of those, they, they kind of can be taken sort of together if you like.

So Go back to our sort of scenario at the beginning, you think that there is an offence going on, that there is, you know, an animal suffering unnecessarily, what can you do? You can't act as judge and jury. No one's asking you to do that.

You know, you are a professional and you know, you have your personal opinion on the animal in front of you. And I think people really worry that if they make a call at that point in time and then it turns out something else was going on. So actually, the dog had some weird immune-mediated condition and wasn't burnt, that the world's gonna come falling down on them and, and they'll be accused of all sorts.

And that really isn't the case. You know, you can change your mind if the facts come to light. That is fine.

You know, the, the animal, you know, there'll be an investigation. You'll do your investigations, and, and the animal may go back. And some, you know, that does happen.

So, you know, don't, don't beat yourself up about that. And, you know, there wasn't anyone who said they would in the poll, but, you know, you can't take the animal away or, or seize the animal from the owner. And as I explained already, neither can the RSPCA.

But what you can do, you can involve the RSPCA and actually, you know, if you can't get hold of us, because, you know, we are very stretched, you know, we're, we're very busy, you can involve the police. Police forces. Do vary, you know, some are really good on, on animal welfare, some not so much, you know, if there's a particularly interested officer, but, you know, the police are the statutory body responsible for upholding the law.

So, you know, if, if we are not available, you know, for whatever reason, or it is a bad situation, then, you know, it is absolutely right to involve the police. And you do not need permission from the Royal College. You don't need to phone them up, phone up advice line or anything.

They probably wouldn't give you permission anyway. They just would say, you know, do, do what you think's right within the code. And the code does allow for breach of confidentiality.

Now, again, another wordy slide, but I wanted to, for you to see it there in black and white, and I just would say, you know, the code is there and I think that maybe. I, I use it quite a lot now, which I didn't when I was in practise. And I was sort of like, why didn't I?

Because there is some really good advice in there. And it's not all about fear and not being allowed to do things. There is good advice, and this is taken from, directly from the guide for Professional conduct.

And it makes it very clear that even without the client's permission, if you consider animal welfare or the public interest is compromised, then you can, you can reach client confidentiality. Just the underlying is mine, by the way, just, just to highlight a few things. So, you know, when there's animal abuse, or you might suspect childhood domestic abuse, or a threat to public health or safety.

Or in prevention, detection or prosecution of a crime, well, we've just found out, you know, about the section 9 and Section 4 offences. So, you can breach client confidentiality, and you don't need to ring up, you don't need to check. You know, GDPR, there's legitimate interest in there.

It's not all about consent. So please, you know, don't use that as an excuse not to get involved even though I know it's sometimes tough to do so. In terms of veterinary nurses, the advice is that they should discuss it with a, with a veterinary surgeon before reaching client confidentiality.

You know it can be a little bit frustrating and, you know. Especially if, if maybe the vet isn't sort of so, so on board with that, but that may be a situation where you'd want to get advice if you felt that appropriate sort of steps weren't being taken. Obviously, write good notes, you know, any of these situations, really, really write good notes, .

But you can seek advice, you can call them, but don't allow it to be a delay. And just to make it clear that, although we don't have all these statutory powers, in terms of disclosure, the RSPCA is the relevant authority. So we're trained to investigate these complaints and, you know, would be an appropriate person to report to.

So Often, it's actually probably gonna be easier for you to let the animal go home, you know, not have an absolute scene with the police in, in your practise. Let the animal go home, you know, talk to some colleagues, and then you decide, well, I'm gonna call the RSPCA. There's a vetline number.

It'll get you through much quicker. We have crazy demands on our phones over a million calls a year. But that number, just don't give it to the public, or you wanna get through again.

So, that's the RSPCA vet line. But, you know, there may be some situations the animal is in your practise, you really don't want it to go, to go home. You know, that animal can be taken into possession or what we often call seized on your advice.

So it can be taken away from, from the owner, you know, through this legal process. You do not have to give an animal back. And I think that's a really important point.

So, this is part of the Animal Welfare Act that sets out what you do in these circumstances. It's called Section 18. So you might hear people talking about Section 18 certificates, and this is where You get the police, and when they talk about inspector, it is a police inspector, not one RSPCA inspector.

You don't have these powers in England and Wales. But what would often happen is you call the RSPCA, we come round, discuss the situation, say, yeah, OK, get the police in. They will sort of stand there while we sort of sort out, sort out the paperwork.

But yeah, you know, if, if the animal is suffering, then, you know, That that paperwork can be done and yeah, so the certificate is in section 18.5, and it is down to you as the vet. To certify.

That the animal is suffering or likely to suffer if its circumstances do not change. So it is down to you to, to sort of, you know, really put it down on paper. This is what I think.

And this is what the certificate looks like. You know, it just can be a bit scary if it's suddenly thrust in front of your nose. So hopefully it's useful to have, have seen it, but for each animal, you, you know, have to fill in the, fill in the certificate there, saying what you think the situation is.

And just to really reiterate, you know, we do need the police, but the situation in Scotland is different. Now, This is an element of of section 18, which is called an 183, and this is, I think a really important one for vets. It means that if a vet says, That an animal is in a sort of situation that it is in its best own interests to be destroyed, then that can be done.

It means that, you know, and I have heard vets, you know, really upset about this sort of feeling that, you know, the owner wouldn't consent to PTS and they had to let an animal go home to die at home, and how distressing that was, you know, the law. The law means that that shouldn't have to happen, and again, You're not gonna want to invoke the law every time, you know, you get in this situation cause I know it's not uncommon, but. I think just knowing that that power is there, you know, hopefully is is empowering, and I think it can be there in conversations with owners very subtly.

You know, that, that the vet is the one who has to be the voice for the animal in these situations, and almost, you know, it's your responsibility in the law. To make sure that animal doesn't suffer. I've only once myself, had to actually kind of go down the 18 3 route in a, in an animal in a, in a clinic situation.

Obviously for the RSPCA it's, it's more common. But Yeah, I don't know really if that's really understand that that exists, . Because I think it, it's actually hopefully quite reassuring to know that, but maybe that will come out in the, in the questions and comments later.

So, we've seized or taken into possession an animal based on, you know, the, the veterinary opinion. It's really important to note that the animal does still belong to that owner until sometimes they agree to sign it over, or if they won't, don't, won't. The court has to make a deprivation order, as when the case goes through.

So that is a long process. And, you know, it, I think it's important for people to understand that, because if, if we don't go all the way through to court, and if we don't win, then we have to give the animal back. And I think sometimes people can, well, you know, why are the RSPCA prosecuting, you know?

And we always try and make the prosecutions appropriate. But actually we don't, we, we can't just hang onto the animal, we can't keep the animal, it does have to go back. So I think that's a really important point, you know, we, we can't just take animals away willy-nilly, you know, there is this whole legal process.

So And then, you know, the prosecution, and, you know, that may be the CPS if it's gone through the police, but it's, it's usually the RSPCA needs to establish that the factual evidence amounts to breaches of these sections of the Animal Welfare Act, sufficient to prove guilt. So, you know, it's like, like any other kind of legal situation. And the role of the vet is critical here, because, you know, in, in nearly every case that we're involved with, veterinary evidence will be relied upon.

And it is important to note that the obligation of the vet is to the court, not to the RSPCA. So, you know, it, it is important that you don't feel that I've got to say this, so the RSPCA wins, you know, it really is about you as that Bentley professional, and so, and if you've been involved in in RSPCA cases before, you may recognise this, you know, letter of instruction, which looks a bit dense and a bit scary, but, you know, it, it really is just setting out, in the app in the appropriate sort of legal way, what, what we require the vet to do, so. It'll make a little bit more sense after this presentation.

So In some cases, as a vet, you may just be a witness of fact and that is literally when you report what you saw. But If you are giving an opinion on suffering. And if you sign those certificates then you are, you know, giving an opinion on suffering.

Then you become an expert witness. People get really freaked out about being called an expert witness cos they're like, oh, I'm not a specialist, I'm not a specialist, and it had a skin condition and I'm not a specialist dermatologist. You do not need to be a specialist.

I think that's a really important point. You're an expert by the nature of being a veterinary professional and by seeing cases day on day, and, you know, knowing what normal clients would do about their dog that had, you know, a, a skin condition. This is one example.

Don't, though, go outside your kind of lodge your area of work. You know, if you're a small animal vet, don't get involved in an equine prosecution. And, you know, if you get phoned up, it's late, or the RSPCA can't find anyone else in the area, will you help?

You know, do just say, no, you know, I don't have the appropriate expertise, experience to be doing that. So that is quite important. So, I know that, you know, being involved in a, in a case, prosecution case can be really stressful.

But Yeah, I spent a lot of time with vets who, who do a lot of this work and you know, I really do think that. You know, you get a very, very long way just by being a good thorough vet, a really thorough clinical examination, taking actual measures, keeping very good notes, considering your differentials. There can be a lot of focus on, oh, we have to do these tests.

It's really all about just appropriate tests for the differentials. Send them away. So, you know, for a very, very skinny animal, it is generally a good idea to, you know, do full bloods, to check that there's, you know, not an underlying reason for that.

Probably do some faecal analysis. But actually, if you feed the dog and keep a good record of its weight, and it puts on weight, you know, That is more powerful than than every sort of, you know, detailed lab test, you know, under the sun, but it is just important to rule out those obvious differentials. Make sure that it's a lab that has a pathologist, and, you know, it's fine to do urgent bloods on your in-house machine, but, you know, you do need to send away bloods, because otherwise, you know, if it does go to court, they say, oh, you know, when was the quality control last done on your machine?

Well, we know that sometimes be a little bit of a challenge. Yeah, so then, you know, just interpret the, the test as you would really for any case in, in light of your differentials. And as I say, if something else comes up, it's fine to change your mind.

It's really important to provide appropriate treatment. If you're saying that an animal is suffering because it's in pain, you need to give pain relief, you know, in, in a timely way, because otherwise, that obviously is gonna be criticised. So, well, you said it was in pain, but you didn't get pain relief, so it couldn't have really been in pain.

So just bear, you know, treatment is really important and sometimes when you're so focused on the, the diagnosis and, and the legal aspects, don't, don't forget it. Keep the records, I've said that already, and you know, if you, if you can take photos, usually that would be done by the inspector, but they are really valuable and make sure that they've they've, you know, documented which photos you've taken, when. And then you need to write a report again, people get really anxious about this, but it is just a a good.

A good sort of a good veterinary report, you know, the, the history that you're aware of, your clinical examination, you know, your differentials, your results, and sort of what you, what you came down with. Now, what you then need to add to that, if you're the expert with this, is your opinion. And whether the animal has suffered.

You know, again, not, not in, you know, getting into really great sort of technical detail. This is a report for, for essentially for lay people. The mechanism of the suffering.

So, you know, the burnt dog, it would have, it would have suffered pain. You know, that, that's fairly obvious. If it's a starved dog, then it, it would have had hunger, it might have had weakness.

The duration can be more tricky, and that's where things like biopsy in that situation might be useful. There are some useful textbooks that can help when it comes to sort of emaciated animals, but you don't have to be exact. You know, you can talk about weeks or months of suffering, again, using your professional knowledge.

How the suffering may have been avoided or reduced. So, you know, again, it's not rocket science. Providing pain relief, feeding the animal, you know, it sounds really simple, but these reports for laypeople.

Referring to the codes of practise to check whether the animal's needs were met, you know, obviously the codes of practise say you should feed your dog an appropriate diet. So if you've got an emaciated dog that hasn't been fed, you know, There you go. And then, what would constitute good practise generally?

You know, my clients would usually feed their dog or would present when, you know, there was, was a skin condition before it got to this stage. So, your experience as a GP vet is, you know, it is just what is needed here. Now, people understandably get really, really concerned about going to court, and it is some work we're doing with the SSPCA to come up with a real kind of suite of tools to help vets in, in this work, and it's a little way off of being completed, but we'll hopefully have some more proactive training, but I would say in the vast, vast majority of cases, the vet's not called to court.

And if you've got a good report, then actually it is pretty unlikely. Usually, the questions are straightforward. You know, they're lay people, they're gonna ask you questions that that you as a vet would probably explain to your clients all the time.

And I know there are kind of stories that fly around about, you know, vets having a really difficult time under cross-examination. Usually, we would know where the situation is likely to arrive and, and have, you know, an overarching expert witness, you know, who's much more, There might be Yeah, just much more, that, that's the area of interest and expertise. So, you know, we, we don't want vets going into the witness box and having a hard time.

It's no good for us. And it's not good for you. And, you know, our prosecution's team are generally very, very happy with, with the vets that we put up there.

And, you know, we win a very, very high percentage of the cases. So, you know, you just stick to, to the facts and your level of knowledge. And as I say, generally, you know, things do go, do go very well.

So yeah, so, similar results in 2019, I haven't had a chance to update this, but you know, we, we went 92.5% of cases, you know, always it's 90% plus. You know, I think the CPS would be really pleased with, with that result.

So, and you know, you can see the numbers there, you know, they're in, they're in the thousands compared to the, you know, hundreds of thousands that we talked about in terms of the actual reports that we get. So, you know, these are reserved for situations where they're really needed. So, finally, just, you know, a bit about the RSPCA, you know, we do really want to be here to help, but we do have to be realistic.

You know, we are a charity with no statutory powers. We have limited resources now. Sadly, this graphic is now out of date because we have just been through, you know, a very difficult period of restructure of redundancies because, you know, charities are struggling at the moment, you know, that is the reality.

. We are not responsible for stray animals or injured wildlife. We help where we can, but we don't have any statutory responsibility for them, and I think that can be upsetting for vets, I know, because you're not responsible either. You know, stray dogs, there's a local authority, stray cats, rabbits, etc.

There isn't really anyone responsible. We will help where we can, but, you know, We will pick them up off the street when they're sort of crushed to bits and and we pay our emergency, initial emergency treatment. I know everyone would want us to pay much more but we can't, you know, and I think that's.

Something that, you know, it'd be good to have a bit more debate, I think, in, in the profession and more widely about some of those responsibilities. So, and, you know, across England and Wales, we have fewer officers than the police would have in, in probably just a small town. So, you know, it, it's just.

You know, about being, I think, realistic, . And you know, we want to build better relationships with vets. We've just gone through this restructure, and I think hopefully the way that we've restructured the, the groups, among sort of clearer sort of county lines and things, we can start to get better communication in place, which is what we, we really, really want to do.

So yeah, you know, we. We do sometimes prosecute, but it is expensive and time consuming. So, you know, we, it's, it's not what we're all about, but we do have to do it sometimes.

And we have strict checks in place, the same as the CPS, to ensure that they are appropriate, which would be an evidential test and a public interest test. The flip side of that is that sometimes we will not prosecute in situations where vets perhaps wanted us to, and that can cause upset as well. Certainly, when there's mental health issues with owners, you know, which is really sadly, you know, not uncommon, you know, there's not gonna be a public interest there to prosecute.

And, of course, we will try and work with people and support them where we can. So, you know, it, it's a really balancing act. But, you know, as I think you've seen, hopefully, as I've gone through the law, we really couldn't perform this vital role without vets.

And I think, hopefully, you know, Through gaining a little bit more understanding of the law, you'll see that, you know. It's good for vets, I think, to understand it and hopefully it will be good for the RSPCA you'd have a better understanding as well, so we're all happy. So thank you so much for listening and you know, thank you for everything that you do for the RSPCA.

I know there's loads of vets out there, you know, helping us all the time and, you know, really going above and beyond, and we do really appreciate it. So thank you. Caroline, that was absolutely fascinating.

I must say, there have been a couple of comments that you've made that I personally was not aware of, and I've been a vet for 34 years now. So, I, you, you have certainly not wasted your time tonight. You have, you have created an awareness of, of stuff.

So thank you so much for that. Great. Thank you.

Yeah. We haven't had any questions coming through from anybody. So I think, you've, you've probably answered all the questions.

I know you certainly answered the questions that I had before we started, which is always a great sign for a presentation. OK, good, good. Well, you know, I mean, if anyone wants to, to, to sort of ask any broader questions about the RSPCA, you know, I'd be happy to take those, cause I know, you know, there is, there is quite a bit of misunderstanding about what it is that we do and we don't do.

And I think, you know, we'll, we'll be, we're working on a sort of plan to communicate better with vets. I mean, I know COVID is making everything very difficult for everyone at the moment, but, you know, we wanna communicate more with vets. So there is a better understanding of of what we can do and I think hopefully then less frustration around what we what we can't.

I can't do everything, obviously. Yeah had any points or questions, be happy to to answer those. Loads and loads of thank yous coming through.

Henny has said, thank you so much for all that you guys do for the animals. Kerry has said thank you for a fantastic talk and a very informative and helpful to us. So that's really, really great.

Hillary has got a question, starts off by saying thank you. Just one question. I have been involved in a few cases, but find often prosecution does not occur where the owner may choose to stop keeping the animal.

Is this common and how is this placed? Yeah, I think You know, as, as I explained, prosecution is expensive, long, you know, if the, if the owner wants sign the animal over, you know, they can end up in our care and us being unable to rehome them for years. So, you know, sometimes, especially if it is one animal, the person has got themselves in a bit of a muddle, you know, overstretched themselves, just maybe didn't understand the animal's needs.

And we really feel that there isn't a public interest in prosecuting, you know, we, we think they may be learn the lesson or, you know, taken on board, and they agree to sign over the animal, then I think the question would be then, what is the benefit of the prosecution here? You know, we, we have the animal, so we don't have to get a deprivation order. We think the owner, you know, to that that we can see is kind of taking it on board.

You know, what is, what is the benefit of the prosecution? Because, you know, we are using charitable funds to prosecute, so, you know, you have to think very carefully, is this the most appropriate use of our charitable funds, as well as those, you know, those tests that CPSU. So, I guess if they've signed over the animal and everything, you've achieved what you can for that animal, but how do you stop them just repeatedly going and getting more and more and more animals?

Yeah, I mean, I think that that is difficult, you know, there's, there's an element of, you know, having to make a judgement call, of course, now we have been doing some work with Sort of with people who have, who actually who we have prosecuted to work with them to try and understand how they got themselves in that situation. And I think that we've had some good learning from that, that we're, we're doing a big project at the moment to kind of review our information and education, you know, looking at how you better communicate with people, how you, how you. Teach teaching isn't quite the right word, you know, behaviour change, educating, educate behaviour change to try and minimise that.

I mean, the, the also the sad fact is, you know, even if we prosecute them and, you know, they are banned from keeping animals for however many years, we often then we do end up going back to those people because they've, they start getting animals again. Now, obviously, it's easier for us to act in that situation because They've been told, you know, you, you have a ban. It's easier for us to to take the animal away.

But it's not like prosecution is gonna solve all the problems. So it has, it has to be used carefully. Yeah.

You know, and also, people are gonna end up with a criminal record, which could have, you know, significant impacts on other areas of their life. And I think particularly, you know, where there are complicated factors behind it, maybe particularly mental health. You know, is that the right thing to do?

I think with the hoarding situation, we've really moved on quite a lot with that, you know, where we know there's really complicated factors behind that. You know, just taking all the animals away and prosecuting the owner, it doesn't work. Yeah we've been trying, we've developed programmes.

There's a really good programme up at Greater Manchester with a couple of vets up there, led by David Yates there, and Kyle, who, you know, went in and showed how. Interaction with, with that hoarder, gaining trust, going in, you know, I mean, it's pretty labour intensive, but, you know, neutering, taking away the animals that are in the worst sort of condition, welfare scoring them, and really working with that person actually is more effective. But it is, it is very resource intensive, but probably better to spend the resources there than, than on a court case.

Yeah, yeah. Following on that same similar situation there Henny has asked a question, is there a law against breeding too many puppies, especially if you know somebody is breeding in a rescue centre situation? Oh, there's, there's a nice kind of can of worms for you.

Yeah. I mean, basically, there are the local sort of authority, regulations around breeding, which really set out, you know, when you are a commercial breeder, so the number of bitches and the number of litters. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head.

But yeah, if you go beyond a certain number. But then you should be licenced by the local authority. So if you think that someone is doing that and they're not licenced by the local authority, then you should, you should let the local authority know.

They would be your first point of call for that. And I think that's about that, what is the appropriate agency? Cause for some of these things, you know, for things like we get contacted about these, dodgy, offering breeding services, services for French bulldogs and things, you know, that's a trading issue.

You know, kennels, breeding, that's local authority. I think rescues is a problem at the moment, because the layer eggs, the layer regulations came in, and their regulations around boarding kennels, but there wasn't really anything to stop some of those kennels sort of being charities and rescues, and they're not within the regulations at the moment. We would like them to be.

Because there's a lot of commercial organisations pretending they're charities and rescues, frankly. And that's really difficult. And it's really difficult when a charity is being asked to investigate a charity.

I mean, we, we do, and we've come across some really, you know, there was a one up in Grimsby, which was a big, a big case. Was importing dogs and, and you know, all sorts, and they were prosecuted. You know, it was, it was putting itself out.

There was a rescue, but it was, you know, really, really terrific situation. Yeah. Unfortunately, it requires relying on that mythical and mystical creature called a, a dog warden, which is also not always easy to get hold of in a lot of local authorities.

Yeah, I mean, that's very variable, and I would say, you know, there's some brilliant dog wardens. Yeah, oh yeah. Get to know your local RSPCA Chief Inspector if you can, and hopefully we'll be making it easier for you, and get to know your local dog warden.

As well, you know, you might, some of them contract out which is, you know, generally not a good. Situation in my experience, but you know if you, if you have got a good dog warden they're a really good, they're really good contact to have. Yeah.

I, in, in my personal experience, the RSPCA have always been incredibly helpful and supportive. And even if they can't personally do anything themselves, they, they are just fantastic support and give you guidance and things in situations. Good.

Well, that's good, good to hear. Here's another interesting question. Microchipping is a legal requirement.

What do you do if an owner consistently refuses to microchip, especially if you have suspicions of sinister reasons. Oh, depends what you mean by sinister means. I mean, the RSPCA is, is not the body that, you know, is, is sort of there to oversee microchipping, microchipping regulations.

I think that would be another one to probably, have a chat with your, with your local dog warden. But I think it depends what you mean by sinister, but if you think there's dog fighting going on, then, you know, that probably is something to just call into us now. I'm not saying that we would, you know, act on a single report.

And actually, I think this ties in quite nicely with a subject that's been in the veterinary press quite a lot recently, which is ear cropping as well. You know, we know a lot of it's happening overseas and they're being imported with it, but that's, it is happening in this country as well. And, you know.

We probably can't act necessarily on a kind of single report. Oh, there was this one dog, but what we can do is build up the intelligence about it. And we did prosecute someone.

I mean, he was a kind of celebrity character, I think, who, was involved in, you know, popping ears with a lot of dogs. No veterinary involvement, no pain relief, you know, botched, absolute botched job. Really, really horrific, you know, suffering.

And I know that there was a bit of an issue with some, some vets, you know, seeing these dogs with, you know, picking up after the fact. They're all infected and just, oh no, well I don't sort of do anything, . But you know, you can, you can report, and you know, we, we would be very careful not to, you know, it's all done in absolute confidentiality, you know, anyone could have reported that dog.

The neighbour could have reported the dog. Seeing him with his horrible weeping ears, you know, someone down the road could have reported that dog. So, I know people get worried that there might be sort of come back on them, as I say, you know, the.

The law is there and I think if we all sort of just said, oh well, you know, it's all a bit scary, we're not, you know, we're not gonna intervene when the law's broken, we'd kind of soon be in anarchy, so I guess, I get it's difficult, but. You know, call the vet line, don't be disappointed if it's not sort of an immediate we're gonna do something. And don't be disappointed if you don't hear back.

I mean, I think this, this is something that's quite challenging around kind of data protection and all of that is that we may well go round, we may well investigate, but we can't tell you. OK. So you're like, oh, the RSPC haven't done anything.

But you know, actually, you know, we, we might have done, but obviously if you're seeing sort of repeat issues, keep phoning me. You know, and we can, we can build up a log. You know, that's certainly how we've picked up some kind of puppy, puppy farms, you know, puppy farm situations.

It's, it's not, we can't just, you know, one sit puppy. But, you know, if you sort of get a whole lot from around a, a town, you know, different vets all coming from, from the same place, then, you know, that will be a flag for us. Yeah, fantastic.

Caroline, tonight has been incredibly informative and enlightening to myself and there's many comments again still coming through about thanking you and And for sharing and shedding light on what we can and can't and and probably more importantly, should and shouldn't be doing. So thank you so much for your time tonight. No, it's a pleasure.

I really enjoyed it. So thank you very much. And to all the members who attended tonight, thank you again for your time.

We do appreciate you attending the webinars. From myself, Bruce Stevenson, it's goodnight.