It's, it's really hard to write a book, and when it's a book this thick, it's even harder for those of you watching on video. So I'm so pleased to say today that we've got one of my good friend Sean Wensley on the line who is author of said book Through a Vett's Eyes. I enjoyed reading this a few months ago and was really keen to speak to Sean.
Obviously, as we all know, Sean's very busy, works for the PDSA, ex-president of the BBA in various, I think with the World World Veterinary Association now, or the, is that right? FAA Federation of Vets in, in Europe, doing some great work on welfare. Sean, tell us a little bit about.
Your ideas for why you wanted to write this book in the first place and maybe a little bit about the, the, the plot of the book. Yeah, sure. Well, great to be with you.
Thanks very much. Yeah, the plot of the book in a nutshell is, it's a book about our relationships with animals. It goes into how they feel from the animal's perspectives.
So it draws in, a lot of animal welfare science, that science of. Understanding how animals perceive the world and, what their preferences are, from their perspectives and how the ways in which they're used by humans impact their, their welfare and their well-being. And importantly, how we can improve their lives.
Hopefully, you found it was quite a, an optimistic, sort of hope filled book. And although it's talks a lot about animal welfare problems that we as vets and vet nurses are. All too familiar with from our, our daily, our daily work.
Nevertheless, good things are happening in different parts of the UK, different parts of the world. And I think, you know, there's plenty of, of hopeful things to be said. As well.
It, it takes something of a storytelling perspective. So it's a first person perspective, of time that I've spent working with animals in different ways and also time spent in nature, which I know we'll, we'll talk about, so it sort of brings those two. Aspects of being around and amongst animals together.
And it's, it's quite autobiographical, particularly if you are a lover of the city of Liverpool, there is definite hints of, of the hinterlands of Liverpool, posh places like Fornby, aren't there? A strong sense of place. Yeah, yeah, so I, I was, yeah, fortunate to grow up on the, on the northwest coast, not far from where you are now, Anthony, obviously, and of course we've there's our beloved red squirrels and nattyjack toads and skylarks and bee orchids and all the rest of it, fabulous place.
To be able to grow up, but I think, you know, during my childhood, and I know, you know, the same is true for yourself now, and me, not only is getting out into those places good for our, our health and our well-being, but it's somewhere to, to think and reflect and just sort of digest the madness of the world sometimes and. For things that pertain to that pertain to animals that we keep, some of the practises like tail docking or castration, or breeding for flat faced dogs or whatever, these sort of ethical questions, the natural world's a great place to go and. Just to have a think and reflect on some of the the ethical questions there.
I think it's a great book for all vets to read, vet students as well because. You cannot look after an animal or try and make an animal better if you don't consider its welfare. It's such an important part, isn't it?
And I know I was at the ISFM conference in the summer, and very much this was the theme of the conference that, A lot of illnesses, for example, feline and idiopathic cystitis, we actually know there's a huge amount of stress involved in that, and if you take the stress out of the cat's legs, then usually the cystitis disappears as well. And I think it's, it's really powerful that people like yourself are helping us to recognise that we must think. In a more holistic way and perhaps that wasn't taught as much when I was at vet school.
I think it was beginning to come in. I remember we had, I think, the first ever professor of animal welfare, David, was it Broome? Oh Donald Broome, Donald Broome up at Bristol, and he came and gave some lectures at Liverpool, but it was very much, you know, a few lectures.
Have we moved on, do you think you're a little bit younger than I am, Sean? Has, has that kind of syllabus for veterinary medicine, has that, has that improved as far as a welfare perspective goes? Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I qualified in 2003, and we'd had some welfare training at that stage, but I got interested in animal welfare and animal ethics during my undergrad and went and did a master's afterwards. But then coming into the, the profession at that sort of time, 2004, it was really fascinating because, you know, the Animal Welfare Act was just being passed in 2006, came into effect in 2007. And that was updating the the 1911 Protection of Animals Act.
So I was, I came into the profession with this real interest in welfare, welfare science, animal ethics at a time when things were changing fundamentally, in a, in a legal context here in the UK. And that was just indicative of the zeitgeist, this, this, the direction of change. So the science of animal welfare has kind of exploded, as I say, this really objectively finding out how different ways of keeping animals.
Different husbandry practises impact on their well-being and their quality of life. That was all changing. The legal, context was changing both here and across the world.
And we know, don't we, that, the, the media, public, political, societal, retailer interest in animal welfare across the world is just going like this, and it's expanding as a social issue. In the wake of, well, generally in the wake of, improved treatment and rights for other marginalised groups in society. Women, LGBT disabled people, you know, it's, it's, it's part of that, move towards increased social justice, and of course that for us as a profession, is critically important because it's so much sets the scene for our place in society.
And we can help, I think, both lead it and make sure that we're at the front sort of advancing this progress for animals, but also help our clients and consumers and so on, understand what it means for them and support them, because change can be pretty scary. Because I think this book is definitely a book that I would recommend to vets and to nurses and to vet students and so on, but I think it's also a book. That people interested in animal welfare, be they professional interest or just generally interested, can gain some value from it.
I mean, Do you feel you, you wrote it for a particular person or do you think it, it can be generally sort of acceptable to most people? Yeah, it's absolutely aimed at non-specialists, that's, that's important to say it's for the, it was for the public and the public that are increasingly interested in these sorts of issues and hearing things like animal sentience in the news and as I say, the the the flat faced dogs and some of those issues, ear cropping that hit the headlines. What does that all mean and try and sort of make, make sense of it all.
But I think it appeals, or has appealed more, more broadly for, you know, vets, vet and veterinary nursing professionals, animal welfare scientists, just anyone, involved in that, what you might call the animal welfare movement. One thing I would say, although it takes a personal perspective, that was really just to use storytelling to try and help bring some of the kind of welfare problems and science to life. So rather than being a sort of dry academic description, as you know, it sort of takes.
We walk hand in hand through the, the various farms and, and elsewhere, riding stables are in there, and, and pet animal practise. . So it takes, it has that storytelling first person perspective, but it's looking just to help people.
Know what some of the, what some of the welfare problems are, and how we know that they're a problem scientifically. But one thing I would say, and I hope this is reassuring to folk. Well, two things actually.
I hope you'd agree, but several people kindly said it, it's not preachy, so it's certainly not intended to be. This is my version of the world and digest it and enjoy it. It's, I hope it, you know, it's meant to be more modest than that, .
But where we have developed animal welfare policy, veterinary animal welfare policy in recent years, because that has really followed, and I hope in some cases led this direction of travel towards improved treatment of animals. I've sought to faithfully include and reflect that policy. So I think that's important because what I might say about painful management procedures in calves, for example.
Draws upon a BVA and BCVA policy position on that issue, the British Cattle Veterans Association, obviously, so it's not just my personal opinion, it's bringing in the evidence-based policy on lots of different topics that are included. And I love the way that you bring in the personal stories, which are often nature-based. Comparing them with perhaps where welfare is.
Limiting and very much this talks about one health, doesn't it? It talks about the importance that if we look after animals, if we look after humans, if we look after the environment, we're going to be in a much better place and actually if we try and separate them all out and see them as separate conditions, separate problems. We, we'll never approach them in a holistic way and probably never solve those problems.
So some really lovely stuff. The, the chapters are great, herons and hens, the goose days, of course, we, we, we love the pink-footed geese in the northwest of England, don't we? They are a spectacle and.
When those sort of spectacles become less spectacular and smaller and smaller, then there's a sadness there as well, isn't there? Yeah, really concerning. So you're right, we tend to.
Make a distinction between animal welfare and people who are concerned about animal welfare and conservation. Of course one is about primarily individual animals. Animal welfare is about the, the quality of individual animals' lives, and the concern is for individual animals and how they're faring, whereas conservation concern, whilst also being concerned about animals is more about populations and particularly dwindling populations, but less about the individual.
But I think the two. Go hand in hand for lots of different reasons. One example would be, That many of the way, many of the causes of dwindling populations themselves impact on the welfare of individual animals.
I can hear a pussycat. Yes, I think he's asking to go out. So, would you like to go outside or do you just need attention?
Yeah, I'm not sure, so we're going to have a little commercial break here, 30 seconds while I let it cut out because. I'm his staff, and if I don't move quickly enough, I get into trouble, Sean, so just give me a second and we'll we'll put the cat out. Did you know the webinar vet has a public community Facebook group?
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The webinar that community on Facebook. But the commercial break is now over, just buy more of whatever stuff they were telling you to buy. I mean, consumerism, maybe that doesn't also fit into the book, so it's, it's really interesting also with things like the, the chapter on Starlings and slaughter, those memorations of course amazing, but the slaughter, situation is.
It's so important, isn't it? It's that whole from the beginning to the end that the animal's welfare is considered seriously. And I think we also also feel, you know, an animal that's had a good life that perhaps hasn't been pushed too hard.
Perhaps even the produce that it produces, the milk, the meat, will probably be a better quality as well, won't it? Yeah, so, one of the, the big shifts of the, of the last decade or decade or so that we've been just reflecting on there, has also been to sort of theoretically say it's no longer enough to just spare animals the worst of being under human stewardship, and that's important. We want to spare them avoidable pain and suffering, but is that enough?
Does that really describe our, sort of moral duty fully? So there's been a big shift in both the, the veterinary profession and more broadly to say that we should aspire to give them wherever possible, a good life and afford them opportunities to experience positive and enjoyable welfare. So you get a truly, sort of symbiotic relationship with humans.
We derive massive benefits from them, and they actually enjoy as, as much as possible, the, the quality of life that, that, that they receive in return. But coupled with that, yeah, is the idea of a good life and a humane death. You're absolutely right.
And there are still important welfare problems around the slaughter process, a big one for BVA as you know, and others, has been, the, the thorny issue of slaughter without pre stunning for religious reasons. It's a very sensitive, . Debate that has to be held respectfully, and I think it has been held really respectfully, but that's essentially that sort of weighing of religious freedom and religious expression against the increasing desire for animal welfare and a humane death.
So that's included, as are some of the, the other slaughter practises. I, I think also, Sean, one of the perhaps most disturbing parts of the book was some of your own personal reflections and some of the things that you'd witnessed, you know, of cruelty towards animals which, you know, we can, we can never really excuse. But particularly also looking at this from a one health perspective, those who who abuse animals are more likely to also abuse children and adults as well.
And I know the Lynx group have done amazing work on that, and I'm so pleased that you're also highlighting that in the book for those perhaps outside the profession who aren't aware of, of that connection. And that there is a need for people to, you know, to call out that because. It can it can escalate, I mean it's awful enough when it happens to animals, but it's, you know, it's even more awful if.
If somebody has to undergo that as well as a, as a person, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I mean the real sort of core starting principle goes back to this recognition of animal sentience and, you know, again, that's been reflected in our domestic legislation recently with the animal sentience bill, . After we'd left the European Union, so once you acknowledge that an animal is sentient, they have the capacity to feel things and to consciously experience feelings, then that really changes our duties towards them.
We can't just use them as though they were inanimate objects. So fundamentally it's just a a moral duty to almost do as you would be done by when you know that the animal is sentient, but. There can be lots of pressures and reasons why it's not easy for people to simply start treating animals differently once they're aware of their sentience.
Economics, as we've just touched on, religion, societal norms, consumer awareness, and so on. So I think the book is set in a fairly sort of pragmatic and practical context. Which recognises all those things and then looks to deploy different, you know, come at it from different angles.
So in some cases it's, as you say, pointing out that. Harming and abusing animals kind of debases us as a species and can be a predictor and an indicator of similar harms and abuses and cruelty towards each other, and vulnerable members of our society, which is tragic and critical that we recognise and look to address. But for others it might be.
Certain like for a a certain country, it might be to access another country's markets, and they have to reach certain welfare standards now just to be able to gain that commercial access. So it sort of touches on these different levers for change, I suppose, albeit that at the heart of it is a desire to do the right thing morally. I think it's now so powerful that, you know, some of those conversations are happening because that hopefully will quicken the process without wishing to be critical.
I remember reading a vet record, which is our veterinary magazine in the early 80s and it was talking about non-storm slaughter. So it's a problem that's been around for a long time and I think there's a danger that we also shouldn't accept slow progress. No, that's, I think that's a really interesting one, of course that goes across to the social issues as well, like climate change, which you're so active in.
Yeah, there's the sort of evolution, not revolution type approach and, you know, we, we go, what is it, faster alone and further together, that sort of those sorts of sentiments. But equally I think you're right, you can then become a little bit complacent about. Everything takes time, everything's very gradual, everything, every little bit is a win.
But meanwhile. Really bad and you know, life threatening changes are occurring, so I, I know I, I, I, it's difficult to. Know exactly how to tread that path sometimes actually, but I think.
If we try and maintain a sense of urgency, I mean, one thing that was interesting, people that have read this, as I say, it was aimed at non-specialists. Some of them have said it made them cry. I mean, it's, as I said, it's not meant to be a doom maiden book, it is a no, it's, I think it's sometimes it's crying from the beauty of it as well, that sort of some of the simplicity of things that you talk about, you know, the, the.
The joy you obviously get from nature, I think is translated in the book. And I think you can cry from joy as well as cry from sadness, can't you? Well, that's a nice, yeah, I should recognise that possibility, so thank you.
But also I was I was going to say, for us who we vets, vet nurses who are working at the coalface of these human animal interactions all the time, I think we can become a bit desensitised, you know, and things become. Normal and difficult, and I don't know, it just it sort of speaks to that idea that you were just alluding to that we shouldn't rest on our laurels and and take things for granted, that we should keep trying to forge ahead on all fronts. And I think every step makes a difference, you know, I go down and I pick up a bit of litter from the beach sometimes, .
It's not a big amount when you consider how much litter there is, you know, in the oceans. But it makes a difference, you know, that individual action, your individual action, as many of the many things you do. There's obviously been a lot of love and time put into the book.
And as you say, if that touches one or two people to maybe open their eyes a bit more to what's going on in the world, to see the beauty of nature, then even if it's only 1 or 2 people, it's been worth doing it. Of course, if it can touch thousands of people, that's even better. But I, but I think we, we also, having just talked about, you know, speed of change.
If we are trying to do something that's better than doing nothing. Yeah, yeah, and when we've been looking in recent years at our animal welfare responsibilities and opportunities within the profession. We have concluded BVA, the other professional bodies have concluded, working with their members that, you know, overall we have a dual duty.
So of course we have the duty that is codified in our, Royal College declaration about it's in the best interests of the health and welfare of animals under my care. So that's that kind of individual that client relationship and that animal course that stands. But that only describes part of our broader duty.
We have a dual duty, which is to have a duty as a, as a profession to speak up and speak out about some of the root causes of why they're coming in to our clinics. The classic would be the brachycephalic dogs issue. So we .
We're all working so hard to, to treat them and improve the quality of life when they're presented to us. But if we simply do that and sort of keep our head down and do the, the good technical and compassionate work. And don't sort of.
Yes. In an appropriately communicated and sensitive manner, speak up and speak out and advocate for change to breeding practises, then we're sort of only doing half of our job, and I think that's really gained traction now. I think that's mainstream thinking.
I think it was really powerful. I, I've been a. British Veterinary Association member, that's the sort of union.
For, for the vets, if you like, the, the association, since I was a student. And sometimes people say, well, you know, what's the point of the BBAA? I don't really see what I get out of it.
And I'm speaking like this because I know some people who are non-vets may be listening. I know you know what the BBA is because you were president once, so, you know, you're obviously well aware of the organisation. And my big plus around BBA has always been.
It, it speaks on behalf of the profession, to government, you know, to interested bodies, people like the Kennel Club, and says we must start to improve things and you know, even small changes like the hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia schemes, I'm sure have made a massive difference to the health of animals, but you know, again we need to go. We need to go further, but it's . It's difficult, but it's why the BBA is so important, so those vets who kind of don't see the need to join BBA I would encourage this is why, this is why BBA is so important.
We worked a lot alongside BBA during the COVID pandemic. And the BVA were really instrumental in, in helping keep the veterinary profession informed as to what was going on, even for them to be considered, you know, a very important profession and why vet practises could in fact, Stay open during the pandemic, I mean, if, if a vet practise can't control a pandemic in its practise, then there's a problem because we are taught a lot about epidemiology and micro during the course of microbiology, aren't we? So it's a bit of a shout out and unashamed fan of the British Veterinary Association and thank you, Sean, I know you've been very involved in it for all the great work that that BVA does, you know, on, on, on, you can take that praise on behalf of the BVA.
That's very kind. Well, no, and thank, thank you. I mean, yes, BVA is there to support and represent, you know, I think they're to really.
Important parts of what they do. So it's supporting individual members, and you gave that example of the support that was provided during the COVID-19 pandemic, when suddenly everyone needs support like never before, and being able to do those regular webinars with you and the team at webinar vet to be able to give people the information that they needed, pretty much on a weekly basis, regularly updated, that, you know, brilliant fulfilment of the support function. That they play, but also then, as you say, the representation and the leadership and that sort of taking a step back and thinking, OK, where does the veterinary profession fit into society right now?
What does society need from us? What do we need from society? And then engaging, as you say, with the media and the politicians to make and others to make sure that happens on behalf of the members.
And when you think about these big issues like concerns we have about conservation and the environment and humane treatment of animals, and it can all seem so. Overwhelming really and complex to break it down a bit into, as we try to in the, in the book and others of us do elsewhere, you know, thinking about what you can do as an individual, what you can do as a practise in your community, and what you can do more widely through your association. There's that link, 11 of the simple things you can do is join.
A membership body, it could be the RSPB if it's an environmental concern, it could be the BVA to go and speak up and speak out about some of the animal welfare issues that you're concerned about. That's a pretty easy individual actions. If, if you as a vet have a French bulldog coming into your practise, it's actually very difficult to have that conversation with the individual and say.
Do you know what, this dog has actually got some problems that really cripple it, you know, it can't breathe very well. You know, it's confirmation generally isn't good. You know, I know people take that sort of thing personally because it's their pet and they love it.
And so we have to be doing that before they come into the vet. It's an educational thing and you know, obviously breeds like the French bulldog and the English bulldog are some of the most popular breeds they've come of anything. More popular, but I think that the points you've made in the book are really important and, Maybe hopefully we'll we'll see even more quicker progress from From conservative bodies such as the Kennel Club who perhaps again don't move nearly as quickly as they should on some of these issues.
Yeah, so there is that engagement with all, I mean, these issues, that's one issue, the, the health harms of selectively breeding for a certain body shape, flat face. You know that it's complex, there are so many different players, from social media influencers through to the dog registering body like the Kennel Club and the vetting profession and, and so on. BVA has its long, quite long standing, breed to breathe campaign, as you know, and that acts in, in different parts of the jigsaw puzzle.
So BVI with others are part of the brackyal, the UK brayphallic Working Group, which is a multi-stakeholder group that the Kennel Club and others sit sits on. You look at things like judge training and breed standards review and, you know, that sort of big picture stuff that's quite important, but it's going on in the background. But also providing tools for practitioners to help them have those sorts of challenging conversations.
It's like, and it's quite, it is helpful because I think. Yeah I totally agree. It's really difficult to then have a in the in the emotional setting of a consultation, particularly if that's not why your dog is, why that dog's come into the place in the first place and you start discussing something that's difficult for the owner to, to hear and think about.
But if they have watched something on the BBC Breakfast sofa that morning, generated by BVA or one of the charities or whatever. Then that sort of softens the ground, you know, that they, that awareness is generated and it can help stimulate a different type of conversation or people start raising it with the owner, you know, it could be friends and family start talking about it a bit more and saying, well, is, is that noise funny or you know, are they? Yeah, it just starts to get a conversation going in a way that you in the, in the practise perhaps couldn't have started yourself, but you can continue the conversation when it's.
Yeah, there's a sort of different context. Sean, it's been a thrill talking about it. I, I loved the book, I really enjoyed reading it.
It really speaks of your passion for the subject, but in a very holistic way, it's not just about the animals, it's about the environment, it's about the wild animals as well as. The domesticated animals. It's a book I'd highly recommend.
You know, this is a veterinary podcast, it's the UK's top veterinary podcast and I'd encourage vets to read it because, I think sometimes we kind of all think we're really good at animal welfare, whereas actually there's lots of training out there. I've loved when I've been over the last few years to the Animal Welfare Foundation's day down in London. So those of you perhaps haven't recently done some really good, welfare CPD.
I actually think this can be classed as, and I'm definitely going to be putting this down for a few hours on one CPD see what the Royal College say. I think it's definitely educational for vets. I think it's really an interesting read for those who just care about animals as well, and there's, we're supposedly a nation of animal lovers.
There's a lot of people out there who I think will enjoy but also learn and, and that's . That's such an important thing, you know, I can see very clearly you as an educator in in all the stuff that you do, and I'm really appreciative for everything that you do for the profession and for the animals. Thank you Anthony, and likewise, thanks very much.
So it's Sean Wensley's. Magnificent book is called Through a Vett's Eyes available at all good bookshops. Please go out and buy it.
Thank you, take care, see you soon on another webinar, another podcast, everyone. Bye bye.
