Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today is all about the new grad phase of our careers. Now I don't know what your first feelings are from whether you've been a new graduate or, or, you know, indeed if you're still a student and you're excited about that very first paycheck, I can certainly assure you that mine was very poorly spent on a large television. But other than the paycheck, there's so much more that goes into your life as a new graduate, and it can be quite a daunting phase of your career, of course, but it can also be a really exciting and, you know, really engaging period of exponential learning.

And I'm delighted to be joined by Lizzie Bucy Dyke, who is founder of Grads to Vet. And, and he's doing great things in this, this new grad space. And I have to say, speaking as someone who's 12 years qualified, I'm truly jealous of that new grad phase, cause I really, I really miss that.

But Lizzy, I just wondered if you could take, take a minute to, to introduce yourself to people. So you're a 2014 grad from Cambridge. So what happened then?

Yeah, so, as you say, graduated from Cambridge, very excited to finish 6 years of study. I don't know how everybody else felt about it, but by year 6, I was absolutely ready to get out of there. As much as I loved it, I just felt ready for the world.

But of course, as you described, it's so daunting starting work and taking on all that professional responsibility, having just sort of been a student for for such a long time. And I set off to rural Somerset, to a small independent practise and started work there as a smallies only vet, with a lovely 1 in 3 on-call racer, as I say we all love that, but, actually, you know, really enjoyed it and, and hugely valued those on-call experiences. And yeah, I just found that I, I, I felt ready for it and I, I really enjoyed having that professional responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, I was exhausted. I don't know whether you'd agree, Ben, but like everything about me ached after my first week of work. I just completely mentally and physically drained.

But of course you know that gets easier as your body adjusts to just actually standing up and not sitting in lecture theatre. So no, I, I had a really enjoyable first year and then moved to a couple of other independent practises. And we've only recently settled in in Norfolk, at yet another independent practise, er, because we've sort of nested down and and had our baby, and now I think we're gonna try and not move around so much.

We've, we've done the move around thing now and we're we're quite keen to stay put and, look at schools and all those scary things that you have to do at this, well, I was gonna describe myself as middle aged, but maybe, maybe I'll leave that for others to judge. Yeah, and it, it is, it's, you know, it's, I look at my first job and you know, I've sort of gone full circle. I graduated in '08, I moved up to Newcastle, and then I moved to the Midlands and then I moved back to Newcastle, and then I ultimately came back full circle to home to Liverpool.

8 years post graduation and of course we do have a tendency as as veterinary professionals to have that sort of nomadic lifestyle, and many others of course for that first job does involve, you know, a, a change of location, but, Something that has become sort of a new phenomenon in in the last 10 years is this sort of new grad scheme, and it's the sort of, you know, do I go to a corporate with a new grad scheme or, you know, do I go to an independent without a new grad scheme, and of course you, you notice the gap in the market there. With with setting up grants to vets that, you know, there, there wasn't a sort of centralised new graduate scheme that catered to independent practises, so what, what fueled that, that sort of desire to get involved in that space? Well, it actually started when I was still at university.

I went to, to a pizza talk, you know, one of those talks where they bring you pizza, and, to be honest, I was there for the pizza. I'm not going to beat around the bush. And it was, it was one of the corporate groups coming.

To talk about their graduate programme, and I dutifully sat through the, the talk because I had come for the pizza. But actually, you know, as I sat through it, I started thinking, gosh, there's, there's a lot of things that really appeal to me here, you know, there's excellent CBD, there's increased support. And and I, I was, I'd already, you know, secured my first job, knew where I was going, and I was really happy with that decision.

But it was working for an independent practise who didn't have access to one of these graduate programmes. And that just kind of just lodged in the back of my brain somewhere, I suppose, and then went into year one and obviously the whirlwind of just trying to work out how to use the computer and everything, and it got very much put to the back of my mind. But then a couple of years later, probably I think 3 years out of university, I started kind of mulling over the fact that a lot of my friends had had just really mixed variable support.

And and CPD and in year one, I had spent my, humble CPD budget on, I think, something like the London Vet Show, which was really enjoyable, but it wasn't tailored specifically for the new grad, and I certainly was terrified of putting up my hands in a big lecture theatre and asking a new grad question when there were people in the room that had been qualified for 50 years. And I think I, I saw the value of what being in a small group of new graduates would have meant to me in year one, because I would have been able to ask all those embarrassing questions. And I mean, you know, I've been to the London Be Show almost every year, love it.

So, you know, only got good things to say about it, but I think in year one it's just really helpful even if it's an addition, to have some CPD that's that's designed specifically for graduates. And as I say, I saw some friends, not doing so well and not having such supportive, first years and, you know, consequently I'm sure you're in a similar boat. We've both had friends who've left the profession for various reasons.

But you can't help reflecting on the fact that actually having a good supported first year has got to be a good start, sets you in good stead, and if, you know, there's nothing wrong with leaving the profession, of course, but if you are somebody that could get a good career out of being a betting could enjoy that, having a first year. It could be so, so helpful in establishing those, those healthy kind of work-life balance, and healthy working practises. So, with that in mind, in 2018 when I was sort of four years graduated, we, we, we started the graduate programme for independent practises.

Just to sort of equalise the offering really that corporates were already doing and, you know, that's where the corporate space has, is so inspiring because they do put time and energy and money into really looking at, at these kind of things and, and so, you know, it's been great to kind of learn from that and try and design a programme that really works for independent practises, so that they can offer the same CBD and support that the corporate world is, is able to do. And I think that's the great thing with it is that it isn't a, you know, the, the corporate independent. Sort of comparison often comes to an an us versus them circumstance, but in actuality, this is nothing like that, this is like going, you know what, this is something that has been really well adopted and used to great effect in, in the corporate sphere, but obviously, you know, as you've alluded to, it is.

Time expensive, it is financially expensive to to set up these kind of things and to put the resource into developing them. So, for me it's really encouraging that there's someone who's gone to the, the effort of setting this up for the independence sphere. I'm, I'm, I have to say I'm glad it's you who's done the work for it and not me.

But it is, you know, sort of many of those decisions that, that start coming around for people at undergraduate, you know, sort of level is, is independent versus corporate, and of course the presence of a grad scheme is sometimes a key differentiator in, in that, that space. So it's great that there's something to, to drag it onto a a level plane, but in terms of, you know, grad schemes, broad spectrum. What, what are the benefits?

Compared to not doing well. Yeah, so I think it's a really interesting question cos I think people do fixate on grad schemes, perhaps more than actually they should, and, and this is me saying it with a, with a heavy grad scheme background, and I think there's some huge benefits to being part of a grad scheme. But I will caveat that by first of all, saying that, and I'm sure you'd agree here, Ben, but interesting to hear your thoughts, that the most important thing is finding a practise.

Be it corporate or independent, that you feel comfortable with, because day to day, your life is gonna be in the practise, regardless of whether you're on a grad scheme, whether you're on any of the different grad schemes, or whether you're not on a grad scheme at all. Day to day, you're still relying on those people that you've chosen to work with to, to be, to be there for you and create a good work, working atmosphere. So I would always say to anybody that I speak to about the grad scheme, that's number one.

But #2, closely follows, is having a good kind of external support and CPD set up for you. And I think the really big benefits of the grad scheme that we see. And obviously, you know, I can only comment on the benefits that that we see within grads to vets, but I'm sure that many of these go across the other grad schemes too, are, having that peer group of of graduates to kind of empathise with, talk to throughout the year at the CPD and we were just discussing what the challenges of this online, but it's still very much possible.

It does create a peer group support which you may not otherwise have. And I know when I started out, I was working with just me and the two partners who were quite a bit older than me. And so to have had that sort of peer group of a small group of grads to chat through problems and say, oh, that's how you're feeling great, that's how I'm feeling too, and that happened to you, great, that's happening to me.

It's just so valuable and to hear those lunchtime conversations going on always really warms my heart. So that's one huge benefit. The second benefit is that.

We have created all of these courses based on focus groups and surveys of what people would have liked to learn in their year one. And we all know that although university is fantastic, it doesn't prepare us for every eventuality, of course. And, the moment you get into practise, you suddenly see which relevant bits you haven't picked up on or you didn't switch on for.

And so areas, for instance, dentistry is highlighted to me over and over again. By graduates, and we've put a really big chunk of dentistry into our course because it's people say we need it, you know, we just get it out there on day one. We're asked to be doing dentals, and actually we're not comfortable with it.

So it's that, it's that very specialised, tailored, curriculum essentially, that's supposed to complement your year one learning that you're doing in the practise that, a graduate scheme can offer, whereas the the opposite opportunity would just be to have a, have a package of Have a CBD allowance that you're allowed to spend in any way, and I think speaking to graduates, most graduates find that quite overwhelming in year one because there's just so much choice, and you don't know what's gonna be grad suitable and what's actually just gonna go over your head. So I think that it takes the stress out of organising the CPD as well. And the third thing is that.

By our CVS, standards, you don't need to do any CBD in year one. So you, you can just do the PDP which is working through the, online portal, and a lot of self-reflection in there, and it, it's extremely valuable. I don't think anybody would deny that it's, that it's a really useful exercise.

But I would argue that you still need to do some CPD in year one just because you want to. That's when it suddenly is all relevant and interesting. And all those lectures that you tuned out of because you couldn't see the relevance at uni, suddenly you're like, please teach me something because I need to feel.

Like, I know. So, I think CPD in year one is so valuable in making you feel like you're developing, and really aids the PDP process. And then the last aspect of gradsches is often there's some kind of mentorship or coaching within those.

And within ours, certainly there is both. So, we, we provide, an external mentor in the form of a recent graduate who is there as a listening ear and can offer their shared experience. And often those grads have been through our scheme themselves, so they know exactly what the grad's going through.

And then in addition we train another vet in the practise up as a clinical coach. And that coaching process is much more about drawing out your knowledge and developing you as a vet rather than teaching per se. But it's, you know, it's proven in so many industries.

I know you're a big fan of coaching Ben to be such a powerful tool. And at that point where you do have all the knowledge, you just need to kind of get it out and get it going. It's, it's a really useful thing to be doing, I think, and, and so we, we make sure that someone else in the practise has had that training to sort of be able to support you, so.

Lots of extra support, lots of extra CPD as opposed to not having a grad scheme at all, and I, I think the benefits, are, are borne out by the fact that graduates want to be on grad schemes, you know, that that's a definite recurring theme, as you said. And that, that is something that, you know, I've noticed, you know, obviously when I graduated, it makes me feel somewhat like a dinosaur, you know, all, all 12 years ago. That, you know, glad schemes just, you know, they weren't a thing, you know, no one, no one had heard of them in our profession at that stage at that point.

And there is this, I suppose, a concern that you go from one end of the spectrum to another where there then becomes this full reliance on a grad scheme. But you know, when we look at professions like medicine, like dentistry, where you have, you know, your F1 foundation years and and your vocational training years. The, the grand schemes are obviously a little bit of a, you know, a sort of nod towards that kind of structured learning.

And of course as a, as a profession that rightly or wrongly has always been perhaps what's the polite way of describing it, a little more laissez-faire towards our towards our sort of, you know, directed learning post graduation, you know, when I look at, you know, friends and family who, who. Where doctors, I mean, you know, they, they run audits on the stuff that they've done, you know, they have to run case reports and you sit there thinking, oh God, yeah, yeah, what's your odds are, I've put 3 things down this week, you know, 2 of them went well, one of them nearly landed on top of me, kind of thing, and I, I think, you know, there are, I think it is important for us to learn to take reflections, but not necessarily in a. In a sort of, you know, self-deprecating manner, you know, the, the, everything that goes well or poorly is an educational experience.

Now you, you sort of alluded to the PDP stuff earlier. How does a grand scheme sit in line with with PDP? Well, again, I can only really comment on how our grad programme works alongside that, but within our grad programme we discuss it actively, initially at the beginning of the year, but actually also.

Sort of midway through the year we have a a few hours discussing it, and I think that's really important because at the beginning there's just so much going on, and some people just aren't ready to engage with that at that point. So you normally find that kind of halfway through the year, those people are suddenly ready to start thinking about it, and that's fine, you know, it, it, some people won't be ready to get going on day one, ticking, ticking things off and, and reflecting. And I don't think that everybody should have to.

But obviously the, the PDP it's, it's, it's great, but not only is it great, it's also compulsory, so we have to do it. And so, and so it's really important to engage with it. But it is one of those exercises, and I, I hope that the RCABS would find this a fair comment that you get what you, you get out what you put in, so it can be done.

Without getting much out of it, but only if you don't put much into it. And, you know, as with everything in life, if you actually develop your self reflection skills through that first year doing the PDP, it's gonna stand you in fantastic stead going forwards for any future learning certificates, but actually just for having a fulfilling career and being able to reflect on your progress. So, it's, I, I think initially it's an important development that the RCVS have sort of added it, and as you say, you know, I think, probably 12 years ago the, the PDP wasn't there either.

So it's all, it's all happening and, and great that it is. But the, the grad schemes and the way they support that is usually through, having a, a mentor or a coach within the practise that's then able to talk to you through the year, and help you develop those reflection skills and also help you out, identify where there are areas that actually you need to get some cases for the PDP because the PDP is . Is is essentially a subject, categorised system where you want to be seeing cases from different areas in whichever field you're working.

And consequently you might just have a gap, you know, I know I didn't see, you know, many neuro cases, for instance, for 6 months into practise, and then I suddenly looked at my PDP and I was like, I haven't seen any yet. I can't reflect on them because I just haven't been any. So, that was great to then, you know, that's the sort of thing you could then bring up with your clinical coach and brainstorm ways that you would be able to find some neuro cases.

Maybe it's a case of just pinging out an email to everyone in practise. Saying, Lizzie would love to see some neuro cases. If you see anything coming in that sounds wobbly or, you know, wonky-eyed, then please please get Lizzy on, on there.

So, having that coaching process, which we aim to, we ask our practises to, to sort of have a sit down monthly, at a minimum. So that means that, you know, if there are those gaps, they are, they're able to pull them up really early and the graduates are able to sort those out. And hopefully that does mean that the PDP can be pretty easily approached and, and made the most of as well.

And I think, you know, that that is, we, we, we don't want our profession to just become, you know, a tick box exercise, and we don't want vets and nurses to become drones, because actually one of the great things about our profession is that we will always see stuff that we've not seen before. And you know, I, I still look at cases that I see now. And it is that thing, I think the only thing that happens is you get more experience as you become better at hiding from the.

Haven't got a damn clue what's going on. So they're, oh, that's fascinating as like the scales in my room aren't working right now, so we're just going to take Fluffy through with us through to the back, where all of our textbooks just happen to be along with all of my colleagues. But of course, what, what, in terms of expectations of, of outcome, obviously sort of, you know, we all want to be the best bet that we can be as soon as physically possible and to feel like we can do everything.

I think, you know. It's, it's realistic to say to, to younger graduates, look, you know, you're not going to be a wizard by the end of year one, and guess what? Nobody expects you to be, and nobody actually wants you to be, because perhaps if you've spent so much time that you're a wizard by the end of year one, maybe you've not had other things and had that, that, as you, as you alluded to earlier, that balance in your life, that is paramount for us not burning out in this profession.

But what, what should people see as a sort of, You know, ideal end goal for that sort of first year in practise, you know, where, where, where do, Where, where would a grad scheme look to get someone to in terms of their, you know, confidence and capabilities? Well, that's a really interesting point, and I think it also raises that grad schemes are different lengths. And and, and, and there is a lot of variety in what sort of support and CPD grad schemes will offer.

And that includes the length of time that you're in them. Our graduate programme just runs for a year. Whereas a lot of the corporate group graduate schemes run for, for two, and I think that there's benefits and, and, and cons pros and cons to both, both, both sides.

But, for us the year was about the right amount of time, as you kind of alluded to, to get those year one competencies going. And then you might well want to choose your own CPD and develop a little bit of an area of interest, you know, in year two was was our feeling from the focus groups that we did. And of course there is, there is a degree of.

As with other industries, graduate programmes tie you into a job, and you owe them money if you leave early, and so it's natural that employers setting these up would maybe want them for a little bit longer than an independent business who has no no stake in, in, in that. And so, so our graduate programmes a year, and, and really we aim towards the year one competencies that are, that are created by the RCVS. I think that's just a really obvious sort of goal point that the graduates will be given as soon as they open their PDP.

And that's what's great about the PDP is it does show you how much you're progressing, and I think it's so easy. I know myself as a clinical vet still, it's easy to go for a year and, and not feel sometimes like you've progressed that much. And that's what the PVP gives you is actually, I know if I was noting stuff down and reflecting, I would see the development because we're we're all developing.

You've said it, you know, we're all faced with new challenges, new diseases, new situations. And the PDP allows you to really map that out on paper and see physically in front of you what your progress has been working towards those year one competencies that are set out by the RCVS. So you're really going from day one competencies to year one competencies.

There's a slight kind of, I guess it's slightly badly named because it's not necessary to get there within 12 months. And it's gonna be completely dependent on your workload. So, you know, many more of us are doing a 4 day week now.

Well, that's going to impact, cos you're just physically not seeing so many cases. Many of us are moving to 15 minute consults. Again, you're not gonna see so many cases in a, in an hour period.

So I, I think putting the 12 months sort of wind time frame on it is probably unnecessary and maybe just adds extra stress. And the RCVS have not done that. I think the average completion time takes 18 months to do the PDP, but it's still nice to have that year one, kind of map in, in mind, and to see how you're doing alongside those year one competencies, which.

Essentially that you should be going from needing some help in most procedures to actually by year one, being able to do most procedures that are, that are common, with our help competently. That's loosely what, what those R CVS guidelines say. And when you get signed off from your PDP, it's saying that you can attack most common problems competently on your own.

Yeah, and I think that's it, you know, attacking and and solving a problem isn't always actually, you know, getting to the bottom of it, is it? You know, sometimes it is a case of, I have no idea what's going on here, off you go to someone who does. And, and I think, you know, there's there's no shame and you know it's the balancing act between an excessive reliance on referral and and that sort of, you know, the, the, the, under reliance on referral where you sit there and kind of go, you know, for me it's, it's a great.

Asset to have, and you know, I think, I think it's always useful for younger grads to hear more experienced vets saying, look, you know, referral is a great tool, and you don't have to have the answer to everything, and in fact nobody expects you to have the answer to everything. But, but you know, try, and I think, you know, the one thing I, whenever I speak to everybody in a referral centre, it's like right, what have you done? Rather than look at a set of bloods and go, oh my God, I have no idea what's going on here, off you go.

Hey, you know, what have you done, what have you tried, and, and you know, where's your knowledge got you to at this point, and you know, what are you referring it for? Do you have a plan and so on and so forth, and I think, you know, structured learning as a grant scheme is, with, you know, with desired outcomes, you know, we look at the, the, the infiltration of, of the corporate world. Not just corporate veterinary ownership, but other corporate structures with things like key performance indicators and objectives and key responsibilities becoming more and more part of our normal day to day life as clinicians now.

I think, you know, structured educational learning is something that is really useful for us all. Now, of course, you know, one thing that would be impossible for us to ignore is the fact that 2020 has been a small blip on the radar of humanity. And, and I think it's obviously going to have thrown up challenges for you as a, as a, as an organisation.

But of course 2020 for the year of the new graduates has been well, yeah, I mean it's safe to say it's basically like someone's dropped an atomic bomb into that phase of of new graduate life for many of them, and of course many people's plans have been completely scuppered. What, what, what challenges does that present? Because of course people who will have been expecting to start work in, you know, January, er sorry, in July, August, September, and, and may still not have started work, and of course that, that runs the risk of, of our knowledge dissipating.

Is is there a way of them, you know, sort of engaging with you as an organisation to sort of keep their, their, their toes in the water, as it were, or, you know, is there anything else that can be done for these people that haven't actually started in practise, but are are desperate not to lose that knowledge? Yeah, so I think it's a really important question and, and back in, in spring, I was really worried about this, and we were hearing from a lot of upcoming graduates that that they were worried about the recruitment situation as well. Actually, in practise, what we've seen is that most of the graduates.

That's that, I, I've come across, have now found positions and there was a sort of sudden movement when the vet bounce back started where actually there were a lot of routines to be caught up on and quite rightly, a lot of practises identified that that would be perfect. Starting point for a lot of graduates to be getting those vaccines, getting those cat spays and and castrates that actually had been postponed during the first lockdown. And so, to my knowledge, the the recruitment situation for graduates has actually been OK, but was very terrifying at one point.

There are a couple of graduates who, yes, I, I was working with, with that in mind and we were going to be, you know, creating some just free content for, for those grads if that did appear to be the case, but as I say, to my knowledge, that isn't the case right now that that graduates are sitting out of work. Having said that, you know, it was, it, it this year, I mean you, you don't want to predict what's around the corner, do you, because it's just been so full on and in what a full on time for them to start work as well and, you know, just because they're in jobs, I mean that's obviously better than being out of work, but also . It's been really, I think it's been a really full on experience because a lot of practises are.

Are obviously having to operate different types of timetables to create bubbles of work or their NPP or their social distancing, and actually social distancing just physically means it's much more difficult to support younger members of the team, because, you might be thinking about, you know, operating with other younger members and how's that going to work. So, it's created a A whole new range of challenges in terms of the support we're able to give to, to our younger members of, of, of the grad scheme. But I would say there's also, I'm, I'm sure you've, seen it, there's a great resource, which I've seen some grads posting on, so it's definitely not just a student resource, but vet wings on Facebook.

If you come across that then? Yeah. It seems great.

It's, and it's basically vets putting up cases and then everyone can just chat them through. And I, I've seen you lads posting on there just as much as I've seen, that students. So I think if, if you were in that position and you a do reach out to me because I'm always happy to help, but B, that's just a lovely place to kind of refresh your knowledge a little bit as a student or as a new grad.

So yeah, recommend that one. I think it's certainly something that even as a 12 year grad, when you look at some of the solutions and things like, oh this is quite handy, this is useful. I'm just gonna add you as a friend because you seem to be a good source of resource.

How long have you been qualified? Oh, I'm a 4th year student. It's like, you know, it is, and I think, you know, I'm, I'm always a huge fan that, you know, there is, there is, you know, experience to inexperienced learning, but there's also the reverse of that.

And, and I, you know, I, I've learned an awful lot from younger vets over the last couple of years. Not, not just clinically, but also, you know, sort of to do with their approach to work and their approach to life and stuff as well, because there are, of course, societal changes. In, in, you know, what people are going to work for nowadays, I think, you know, as, as a profession, we sort of have to accept that, you know, the way we work will, will need to evolve.

And, and certainly, you know, we're on the, on the road to that happening, but you know, I firmly believe it's an exciting time to be a new grad in this profession because, you know, we are very much a rapidly evolving profession, so. Obviously, you know, we're a couple of years into, to grants to vets now, and the, the wind is very much in the sails. What's the future look like?

What, what are you, what are you hoping to do and, and, and sort of, you know, how are you hoping to, to, to improve the service and grow that over the years ahead? Constantly, yeah, constantly. Well, on a personal note, I've just I, I'm sort of midway through a certificate in veterinary education with the RCV RBC.

Which has been great actually and has really kind of given me a lot of ideas for how we can make that educational experience more valuable over the next few years. So that's been really exciting and, and that will run till September, so still lots and lots to learn. Another time commitment.

but, on a more general level, we're, we're just constantly, looking for feedback, developing, trying to work within this changing world, which is a challenge for any business that vet or vet. Related. And so as we discussed earlier, we've moved everything online for this year, but the hope is that we can keep the best bits of that online world going next year, but also I've had back in our really core practical days.

And something we've been able to add this year is a, an evening case discussion group, which we have once a month. And it's, it's a Zoom call, super interactive, small groups with one specialist, either a diploma holder or certificate holder. And grads can submit in advance cases that they'd they've seen, they'd like to discuss, they've found challenging.

And then we just all talk through those, led by the diploma or certificate holder. And that's something that, because it's just an hour and a half on an evening, we never could have asked our graduates to travel across the country or from wherever they were coming to meet somewhere, you know, we had it last year when we were running our purely attendance days, we had Swindon and Liverpool as our bases. So that was great, you know, everyone's, everyone was nearish.

. And it wasn't too far to travel, but we could never have asked people to come once a month. So using those aren't the best of online, which does allow us to meet up more regularly, but also putting back in, the things, fingers crossed that, that, that things are improved by, by September next year. So I think going forward, that's gonna be a big change for us taking a more blended, learning approach.

And then, and then just steady steady growth, you know, the great thing about the practises we work with is that. The graduate scheme self selects for forward thinking practises because the forward thinking practises are the ones that reach out and say yeah we'd love to have our graduate on the programme. And so we work with some really fantastic practises.

And, and we just want to grow that, you know, grow that steadily. The independent world is so exciting and actually I feel, and I don't know if you've got a similar sense that, that the opportunities and challenges posed by COVID have spurred quite a few more people into thinking about practise ownership and starting up. So I think in the next few years there will be some really exciting startups out there.

And what an amazing place for a graduates to to kind of fuel their passion. For veterinary medicine than than working alongside people who own and run their own business are now passionate about it, you know, I think that I think that's, that's fantastic. So, we, we know the independent sector's small compared to the corporate world, but it's not going anywhere and and so you know that's, that's brilliant for us.

Yeah, and I think that's it, isn't it? You know, there's, I, I really like this idea of this sort of, I think you, you referred to it as blended learning and that sort of amalgamation of both physical and digital education, I think is a really you know, really exciting space, purely because, you know, let's face it, we're a sociable bunch of people. And, and the networking opportunities that present and, and I have to say, you know.

Every CPD meeting you go to is a great networking opportunity, and, and I would actively encourage people to do this because it you you have conversations that you just make, you wouldn't have digitally. And you know, I, I certainly, you know, I've met some fascinating and. Completely bonkers people who are doing incredible things at at meetings, physically, and of course you just don't have the quality of conversation.

Digitally with them, but I think the opportunity to blend those two together, and give people that chance to, to share experiences, because ultimately, by sharing experiences and by sharing in the learnings from them, everybody benefits. And to me that is, you know, we, I, I've been so, so fortunate to work with brilliant. Vets much, much, much better than I am, you know, clinically over the years who, you know, those that probably, I, I was that person that people would look at when you go through with, with a plan and sort of raise an eyebrow and sort of go, yes, you could do that, or you could do this, Ben.

And, and, you know, you think having other people invest in you as, as a vet is, is a privilege, you know. It really is a privilege to have someone who wants to give of themselves to you, to help you become a better vet or a better nurse is, is, is no small thing. But of course, then, in the fullness of time, it then becomes your responsibility and, and, you know, hopefully your pleasure to, to invest in others, and to see them grow.

And I think, you know, when we look at our, our plane of development as more experienced vets is obviously significantly slower. And you watch these young grads coming out, kind of, you know, really going up the curve, and it's like, it's fantastic to watch. And I have to say I watch it with jealousy going, God, I, you know, I wish I could go home.

I don't think I missed the emotional roller coaster of the highs and the lows day to day, but, but that, that upward curve of knowledge is fantastic. So I think, I think what you're doing is brilliant. How can people get involved?

Because of course there will be some people who are new graduates whose practise doesn't have a grad scheme, that isn't a corporate, but they're really interested in finding out about it. In fact, there could be people who are 3rd year of vet school and going, when I graduate, I need to be on this course. And if you're not, frankly, why haven't you thought this?

But how, how can they engage, Lizzy? Yeah, so, the first step would be to, to have a little look at our website. It's www.grads to vetstovets.com.

Emailing me is always a good starting point as well, because I'm, I'm always on the end of an email and love to chat. So that's Lizzie L I Z Z I E at grads to vets.com.

Or we have got, social media as well. We're not as active as it probably should be. So yeah, do get in contact, you know, and I'm always happy to chat to students.

I've been really sad about the, careers fairs this year, because that's normally such an exciting day to go to the universities and just chat and get the energy from the students. It's fantastic to hear how excited they are about entering the world of work. And of course, This year, so far they've all been sort of online or, or, or postponed, and, that's such a shame and I'm sure the students will be feeling that, that loss as well.

So yeah, just, just, just do get in touch and we can just have a phone call instead, and have a chat about it that way. Practises, there's never too late really, because we're we're a bespoke programme. If you've got a graduate.

Already, and we have, you know, we have had a few this year who've started work, and then practises have suddenly sort of thought, whoa, support. What are we gonna do? And so get in touch, and we can make out, you know, make something work for, for enrolling graduates even later on, in the year, because support is better than, than no support, even if it's a little bit later in the day.

So yeah, do get in touch. Love to hear from you. Yeah, and I think, you know, we look at a profession where, you know, retention is, is something that's often looked at by practicers now and they sort of struggle to retain good staff and you know, I, I'm a firm believer and I think the vast majority of people that I know fall within this category where, you know, if you, if you're actively investing in your staff and in their development and their wellbeing, and in frankly in their.

Enjoyment of their job, then, you know, a happy staff member is someone who is much more likely to stay. So I think, you know, these are, perhaps I'm blinkered, but this is to me a no-brainer. In terms of happy staff, staff stay, less recruitment issues, happier team, happier clients, healthier pets, everyone wins, and the Christmas party will be a wonderful thing when we're allowed to do it again in God knows.

But Lizzy, it, it's great to chat, it's great to hear all the fantastic things. Thank you, and I think, you know, it is sometimes people take for granted things that that pop up and make a difference, so thank you for, for doing this, because ultimately nobody else has. And you know, it really is great to see new grads being supported.

If you are an undergraduate and if you are a new graduate, this is genuinely one of the most fun times of your career. I know it's hard, I know it's stressful, I know there's times. When you will get in of an evening you will look at the bottle of wine and say, I could probably just straw pedo that right.

But genuinely embrace it, don't stress about it too much. There are fantastic organisations like this that are there to help your development, and, and, you know, God knows what you'll be doing in 5 years. Some of you won't be vets.

You will be on your way to being the next. The next batch of super specialists, and some of you will be GP vets. The important part is that you use this phase to find what you enjoy.

And to lead that on to the next phase of, you know, developing those areas of your enjoyment, so, you know, enjoy that new grad phase, because you get it once. Or if you're like me and you decide that you hate equine practise after 5 years and you're gonna go and do small league, you get to be a new grad twice, but I wouldn't recommend it to everybody. Lizzy, it's great to chat and I I'm, I'm really looking forward to seeing things in the future.

It's been great, Ben, thanks for having me on.