Welcome to another episode of. Our er podcast, where I'm really, really fortunate today to be speaking to Steve Deals, er, Steve is a veterinarian in New Zealand, and is writing a book at the moment, so we're gonna be talking a little bit about that and some of the themes of the book, and then we're gonna go into some other areas, Steve is also a coach, dealing particularly, I think in the, in his early stages with, with burnout amongst vets, obviously. You know, a big problem that we have, I was speaking recently to somebody who's 18 months in and needs to take time out, so it's obviously a serious problem, you know, retention within the veterinary industry is difficult, so I'm really looking forward to getting your perspective on that Stephen, usually I ask my podcast guests to give us a brief history of, You know what they've done and how they've wanted to become a vet and all that and then their er career, but of course that's all about in the book so I I'm, I'm gonna dive in and talk about the book first, which is called Bite Marks and Burnout.

So yeah, tell me what, what was the er reason we've all got a book in us is what everybody says isn't it, so I think it's fantastic to do a book, tell us what maybe er drew you to doing that. Sure. And, and firstly, Anthony, as I said to you off camera, this is not intended to be a conversation where I just promote my book and go on and on about my book.

I do hope you'll enjoy it and like it, but the inspiration behind the book was a combination of just noticing vets in the media being portrayed in a certain way and at the same time reading a dark comedy about what it was like to be a doctor. And I thought this is a great way to communicate. Some of the harder aspects of being a vet.

So, the book isn't intended to be, you know, a slander of vets or just a 100% negative stories about what it's like to be a vet. It's intended to be a balanced perspective. But when you see vets and books and particularly in movies and TV that they tend to be portrayed as this good looking, happy person who's cuddling kittens, and I don't think it gives a fair reflection of what our career is actually like.

We can romanticise it, but you know I, I still, obviously I'm not practising now, but I did 26 years. It is still one of the best jobs in the world, but there are elements of it that, that are challenging, aren't they? Yes, I, I always say that for the right person and the right job, it can be literally one of the best jobs in the world, and there are aspects of my career where I did feel like that about my career.

But at the same time, it can be also, also emotionally, mentally and physically draining, and both of those things can exist at the same time. But I don't think we solve some of the challenges in our industry by glossing over the hard parts of the job or pretending they don't exist. Yeah, and I think particularly in those 1st 5 years, if you can.

Get over the 1st 5 years when there's a lot of Impostor syndrome around, you know, and you, you worry about whether you're doing the job right and certainly when I talk to, new graduates or students, I think everybody is frightened about being struck off in the first, year or two, and, and you know I talk about our year which is now, you know, Pre-millennium when we qualified, and I don't think anybody's been struck off so it it also is a little bit about mindset isn't it that, Get through those 1st 5 years and there are. I I think that can be the difficult time. I certainly found my first two years really difficult, you know, I had some good bosses but also some, you know, not so good bosses who weren't really there to support and I think support in the first few years is so important, isn't it?

100%. But even with support, I think, to your point, like, yeah, the 1st 5 years are hard, but I would say that my experience has been very similar and that particularly those 1st 2 years is very, very hard. And one of the points that I try to make in the book is around, you know, if you're a dentist.

I don't know what it's like in the UK, but in New Zealand, you study for 5 years to become a dentist and you're focusing solely on teeth. So, when you come out as a qualified dentist, it'd be pretty fair to say that by the end of your first year, you should be feeling some level of confidence. I started after 5 years of university in New Zealand, so for our American listeners who seem to study for about 25 years before they qualify, I studied for 5 years and then became a mixed animal vet where I was working with cows, sheep, deer, horses, cats, dogs, and everything in between.

And so, naturally, A year into the job, it's unlikely that you're going to be smashing it. And so I remember I had an 18 month review where my direct boss and the director of the whole company sat me down and they were nice guys, but I don't think they'd had a lot of HR training, and they sort of highlighted some of the issues with me and how I was going. And then I just remember leaving that that meeting just feeling so low and The imposter syndrome really high and just feeling like.

Hopeless, and then it was only probably 2 or 3 months later, I vividly remember coming back from a job and my boss looking me in the eye and saying, jeez, Steve, you're, you've been smashing it lately. And so, like, just at the point where you think, you know, all hope's lost and you feel awful about your position as a young vet, it, it only takes a little bit longer and, and hopefully for people, like, I would say, hopefully by the 2 year mark, people are starting to feel A little bit better about the job, but I will also add, and thinly that, you know, I've been a vet for 12 years now and I started doing emergency work maybe 4 or 5 years ago. And even now, I do have the occasional day where I'm handing over to another vet who's about 5 or 10 years younger than me and they seem to be a walking textbook, and I still get imposter syndrome from time to time.

I think it's sort of part of, part of the job and part of our personalities that That lend to us feeling that imposter syndrome. I was . Didn't get my A Levels first time, went in second time, was very sort of middle of the road, in the middle of the class, and allied myself in the group with the, the really smart cookies at the top of the, at the top of the class, one of whom is now a professor in Glasgow, I, and I think surrounding yourself with clever people is is often the way to To sort of hide your own inadequacies, so I'm quite I've been quite good at that in my career I think it it's impossible to know all the answers isn't it, but certainly when you're a young person, And sometimes even older people, you know, to try and feel that you need to show that you know everything and can't show any sort of weaknesses, is also probably part of that burden that we that we carry isn't it?

Yeah. And, and funnily enough, I've suffered more from that in my first year as a vet. Like I was really scared of saying I don't know.

And I remember one time a farmer pulling me aside after I'd given him some bullshit answer about what I thought was wrong with a cow and I clearly didn't know what was wrong. And he pulled me aside and he said, Steve, when your boss was a young vet, I really respected him for saying when he didn't know the answer to something. Ironically, at the time, it didn't, it sort of stuck in my brain somewhere, but I don't think I like really got the message until a few years later, and it's a sort of cruel irony that the more confident that you get as a vet, the easier it can be to say no, or sorry, to say I don't know.

Yeah, I think it's also being a lifelong learner and being able to go away and say well where can I find more information or can I speak to a colleague, learn from a colleague, you know, even listening to your clients who often are so per perceptive of you know there is something wrong, you check the animal, you can't see anything wrong. I, I always believed in, you know, going with the client as well. Yes.

But the, but the issue for me personally at that time is my impostor syndrome was so high, like I was really, yeah, impostor syndrome on steroids. It's this weird situation where rather than Being honest about the fact like, look, actually I've, I've only been a vet for, for 12 months and this is the first time I've seen a condition like this, I actually have no idea what's going on. Ironically there's this weird psychological thing where you're like, no, no, no, I can't, I can't admit to the farmer that I'm wrong, I've got to like pretend like I know what I'm doing.

Yeah, I know in America they do a, a first degree and, and then do veterinary and, and you know I always say to people that my first degree was probably bullshit, so you know, we're bullshitting to go first class honours, but. You know, obviously, yeah, it, it becomes a bit dishonest if you are, if you are doing that, but at the same time it's, it's showing the confidence of knowing how to approach it to, you know, to get to the final piece doesn't it, but as you say, if you're coming out of vet school and all of us, certainly when I qualified, we had a conference for final year students and the vets who were leading the conference which is more about business, said who wants to be a mixed animal. Practitioner and we all put our hands up and he said, you know, within 5 years, the majority of you will be small animal vets, so you know trying to do everything is difficult and I think, certainly in the UK there there's more of a a swing towards specialising if it's you know small animal or cattle or sheep or horses because trying to do everything is so tough, isn't it?

Yes, and, and this sort of goes to the other end of my career where I started doing the coaching. It was partly from my own experience of really struggling for my 1st 67 years as a vet and really struggling to find my place and then finding a role where I was using my strengths on a day to day basis and realising like, I don't have to be the everything vet and actually if I can focus on, on one thing, that's actually a lot more rewarding. And since I've been in the career space, the career coaching space for the last few years, there's a lot of research in every profession, not just in vets, that people who focus on their strengths and focus on a specific thing and get good at that tend to have a more rewarding career.

Yeah I mean I, I found in some ways I, I qualified and I was seeing itchy scratchy dogs and cats all the time and, and not really knowing what I would do. So I, I then thought hm no I need to know more about this cos I was fascinated by it, but also like yourself, not really knowing what I was doing, you know, and I think it's very easy to throw some steroids at that time at a dog or a cat and er. Some temporary relief and then making sure somebody else, you know, saw it next time, and then I sort of went and started doing some CPD in that area, obviously physical at that stage, not online, and then ended up doing a certificate with the Royal College, so after 5 years I had that certificate and that was then, you know, an area that you could excel in, as well as having the general first opinion and actually taking, The dermatology certificates into first opinion but also referrals was a really interesting mix for me so I I agree I think there is a desire you know we're we're all fairly bright people, we want to continue to learn and have that specialty, it's, it's good to have something that you feel you really know quite a lot about isn't it?

Yes, and then also at the same time to use your example, like it makes the cases more rewarding than instead of just continually, you know, when you're a very young vet maybe throwing antibiotics and steroids at a chronic skin condition is at least you've sort of dealt with that issue and it can go away, but eventually, most vets will get to the point where it starts becoming pretty unrewarding when you're not really helping the clients, you're not really helping the animals and you're just pushing, pushing issues further along. I always when I started doing dermatology referrals, one of my questions was, you know, which vets have you seen in the practise and they would say we've seen all seven of them, they all have a slightly different take on it, yeah, but yeah, the, the book title is, is interesting as well. Bite marks and burnouts.

We were you pretty successful at avoiding at least the bite marks? Yes, I was. Ironically, I was.

I've, I've heard some, actually quite shocking stories from friends and colleagues, but I've been bitten very few times. But as I said before the the interview formally started, the reason for the name was just something catchy, and also I wanted to, you know, part of bite marks is that sort of like metaphorical bite marks, you know, it is, it is a profession that That leaves a mark on us in good ways and bad ways, and I wanted to reflect that in the title. I will also say that one of the, the front runners for the book was kind of shame.

Oh yeah, but then I thought they didn't really fully encapsulate, you know, what I'm going for with the book. Yeah, I was very lucky as well, I, I, I was bitten. On very few occasions, my worst bite was actually when I was called in to re-suture a castrate wound on an animal that I was told was anaesthetized but was obviously lightly sedated, and the dog jumped up, the nurse let go of it and then it sort of caught me in, in just this little part of my finger, there were a few expletive, on the, the lack of, of holding, but, on the whole, I remember also, shimmying around a table with a, Rhodesian Ridgeback that was wanting to lunge at me.

They can have, I, I went to Zimbabwe as a student and, the Rhodesian Ridgeback is there to protect the owners against lions, so they can be quite ferocious. Yes, yeah, 11 of the stories that I tell in my book is about being in small animal practise and, Seeing at like 11:30 a.m.

I've got this appointment booked with a 60 kg Rottweiler, and there's about 5 different warnings on the, on the booking and you're just thinking like you're just dreading the 1st 3 hours of the day because you're thinking, oh like what's gonna happen when, when I have to deal with this animal and am I gonna leave with less limbs than when I started. Yeah, and then when the Rottweiler is growling at you, the owner always says, oh he's he's just talking, that's all, and you go, but I don't like the sound of the language he's using. The, the other thing too is it's like they'll always say, regardless of the breed, they'll always say, oh he's, he's never bitten anyone.

And I was like oh yeah that's really comforting to know that I'm also a stranger holding a needle. Yeah. So the, the book obviously, tell us a little bit, you know, going through the history, so there was the very much the impostor syndrome early doors, how long were you in your first practise for a couple of years and then you moved somewhere else or?

So I was in my first job for 3 years and it was really. Around about the 2 year mark, that things started to click in place for me, I started to really enjoy the job, enjoyed the mixed animal practise. Obviously, it wasn't all easy, but, you know, I, I remember more positives than negatives.

And then I moved to a different location in another mostly rural role, and I enjoyed that for a while, but, like a lot of type A personalities, we just can never be satisfied. And so the moment that I started reaching a point of competence, I started Started getting bored of the repetitive nature of some of the work and started to feel unchallenged and looking for that next challenge. So, that led me to taking a leadership position overseas, without doing much research on the actual job and what was going to be involved in the job.

And for our listeners that aren't in New Zealand, we don't do, as large animal vets, we don't do a lot of surgery typically. In New Zealand, compared with our UK compatriots. So, I went into a role where I'd done about 10 caesarean sections on a cow in the space of 5 years.

And the new graduate who was supposed to be my junior, had done about 25, I've actually done about 1 dozen or more as a student, and then maybe another 1 dozen in her first few months of practise. And so I went into this role that was very surgical heavy and You know, I'm a perfectly competent small animal surgeon, and I can do a caesarean section on a cow, but I'm not a particularly fast surgeon, and it was a very high surgical load, and I just found myself in a job where I was quite honestly, massively out of my depth, plus quite an isolated rural town, and so, I don't want to get into the, you know, that's what the story's for. I don't want to get into the details, but I guess the point that I'm trying to make for our veterinary listeners is, it is really important to get an understanding of yourself, understanding what you're naturally good at, because it's going to make your career a lot more rewarding.

I always loved in my own practise that I had, you know, Aussies and Kiwis coming over because you are, or I I found you know the ones that I worked with they were very practical, but obviously as you say there's different systems and and you know, as a kind of, Eco-environmental, environmentalists, I like the fact that in New Zealand you've got the sort of, low input, low output, whereas we seem to really push our cows more and I suspect you were having some er Belgian Blues that you were er or cows that had had Belgian Blue er crosses or whatever, what, what were the, what type of cow was it that was needing so many caesareans? I think I had so much PTSD from that stage of my career that I don't actually remember the breed. I just remember that there were these wildly large beef cattle that didn't want to stay still and yeah, were a lot more challenging than like a, a, a calm, quiet dairy cow that I was used to back in New Zealand.

Yeah, yeah. So what happened after New Zealand, you, you er sorry after the UK with the large animal situation, did you then do a bit of. Travelling in the UK and Europe or.

So, so I took this leadership position without any research, and then after that experience, realised I should really be focusing on enjoying my OE. So I would do short term stints and random practises in the UK and then do a stint over in Europe. And I found I really actually quite enjoyed myself once I focused more on having a bit of balance.

So, I was still working very hard as a vet, but it was sort of like 6 week stints of working really hard and then 2 weeks of holiday kind of thing. And, and that reset, I guess, led me to taking a job at a, at a, at a beach town in New Zealand, where we had moved, me and my partner had moved to this beach town for the focus of life first and then job second. And so, I took a job at a seemingly innocent, privately owned small animal clinic, or at least thinking it was privately owned, but it was actually going through the process of being bought by a corporate.

And so while I had done smallies to some degree throughout my career, I'd never done a full-time small animal role for a long period of time. And so I took the small animal position and initially it was fine, but as the corporate tentacles got their way into the the business, quite honestly, I was just getting worked. So, in the, in this situation, it wasn't that I was, you know, inadequately prepared for the job in terms of the skill level.

I could do the job, I was perfectly fine at it. But I just found a different issue, which was a systems issue. And, you know, I, I'm sure lots of people will be familiar with working in a clinic where profit seems to be the, the main motivation above everything else.

And so, I'd be doing sort of 30 consults a day and getting to the end of my days like stuttering my words because I was so mentally exhausted. So, naturally, after, you know, a number of months of doing that, it starts to It starts to leak into every other area of your life, so it started to affect my relationship, it just started to affect my happiness, and at some point I made the decision to actually quit clinical practise at that time. So, spoiler alert, I am still working as a vet now, but I quit clinical practise and I took a job working in the pharmaceutical industry for about 18 months.

And then you've done the coaching, so what led you to, to do that, basically your own experience and, and what sort of training did you do to, To then be able to help with the burnout situations that you know you're you've obviously experienced yourself. So, the inspiration for the coaching was I, I had done a pivot within the veterinary profession and I've always been very interested in professional development and things like that. Like, I'm the kind of guy that used to watch a TED Talk in my free time, really interested in professional development and things like that.

So, that was the inspiration for the business and I kind of arrogantly assumed that I could just create an online coaching programme without, having any qualifications, but, a UK vet who was in the coaching space actually recommended. I get a proper coaching qualification. So, I got a, internationally accredited coaching qualification and realised through that process that it is actually important to, to learn how to be a coach and not just decide that you're a coach and, and do it.

So, I guess the biggest learning that I took from the coaching training and actually coaching people is At the most simple level, coaching is not telling people what to do. So, there's a lot of people online that will claim to be coaches and you'll get these scams and people sort of, not necessarily scams, but people that claim to be coaches, but very few people online are actually qualified coaches, and the basis of coaching is effectively active listening. So rather than me saying, Anthony, you're complaining about your job, go and do this, you know, these 3 steps, this is what you need to do.

That never actually changes anyone's behaviour, whereas coaching is helping the person to come to their own understanding by walking them through like a sort of like, like a, it's like an active listening but directing a conversation in a certain way and helping people to take action in their lives. And and so now you you're still doing some veterinary work but you actually coach to vets but also people outside of the industry as well? Yes.

So, for the, for the purpose of today or tonight's conversation, depending on where in the world you are, I do, like, I think that it's, it's probably most important for me to talk about coaching as it relates to, to other vets. And essentially, yeah, again, my motivation was Having my own experience where I had my challenges in the profession and through a slice of luck, part of the story I didn't tell you before actually quitting clinical practise, I had sought out a coach myself and that coaching experience helped me to understand myself better, understand my strengths and to take action in my career. And then at the same time, I was seeing in the vet space, you know, the likes of Not One More Vet, which is a Facebook page, in the suicide space and all this talk about burnout and compassion fatigue and things like that.

And I thought I had a, a, an opportunity to actually help people to get unstuck. But one of the, one of the biggest challenges I found with my vet coaching business wasn't so much coaching the vets, it was getting people to invest in themselves. And realising like, because that's the hardest step of all, to be honest, is for someone who is feeling stuck and feeling burnt out, what I've come to realise is when you're in that kind of hole, you're really unhappy, that's kind of the time where it's the hardest to change.

And so that's why I would say that the first piece of advice I'd give to anyone who's who's in a bit of a hole in their career is there's no point. Making wholesale changes when you're just trying to survive day by day, and that's where probably the best thing you can do is to, if possible, take some time off, step away from things for a bit. Like I've I've heard so many people in the vet profession that even people that I've coached that step away for a bit, and it's not saying like quit vet, I'm not saying quit vet and go and like, you know, become a surf bum, like, just take a break.

And then once you're in a better headspace, make some decisions for yourself. Find a, find a practise that aligns better with you, find a place where you're not worked as hard, and then you're more likely to find happiness in your job. And one thing I do want to say on the, you know, there's so many different angles we can go through here, but one thing I do want to say in terms of the burnout conversation is My first job, I was probably averaging 50 to 60 hours a week plus on call.

And yes, it was tiring, but it was also really rewarding. And I was helping a rural community. I was learning lots.

I was growing as a person. And I'd never felt burnt out in that job. And yet, in the job where I ended up deciding to leave clinical practise for a bit, in terms of the hours I was doing, I was actually only working somewhere between 35 to 40 hours a week, plus on call.

But in that situation, My values, looking back in hindsight, my values were so misaligned. That, and, and the culture was, and the culture was terrible, that that's. Something that caused me to feel burnt out.

And I think a lot of the, a lot of the conversations around burnout seem to be more focused about, like, working too hard and things like that. And it's not to say that working hard isn't part of the problem, but, you know, I, I, I know people that work 100 hour weeks in a business that they're really motivated and inspired by, and it's amazing how, if you're aligned and you believe in what you're doing, you can have that energy. I think that one of the biggest issues with burnout is values misalignment.

Yeah, I absolutely agree if you know if you are not, you know and I say in in our business if you're not enjoying coming into work, you should really look for something else because you know we want to create an atmosphere where, where people can be successful and grow you know personally and professionally and obviously. You're never gonna do that for every person, but that's definitely the intention, you know, at webinar that, and it's so important cos we, you know, however much time we spend, we spend a significant amount of time at work, so we should, Enjoy it if we go in, and I think this is where if it seems to be a purpose centred business, it's got a, a role like you say helping in the rural community, then if you feel there's a worth and you're getting something from it, then it's easier to carry on giving isn't it? Yes.

And, and I guess to your point as well, it's not, I'm not saying that if someone's burnt out, it's 100% the business's fault and 0% the individual person's fault. Like, at the end of the day, the only person that's going to save you in your career is yourself and like you've got to, there's got to be some level of accountability, like, you know, genuinely, there are places where the culture's awful and there's, I've heard lots of, I've been very lucky in my own career, but, There's a lot of, you know, I've heard lots of stories of vets working in places where the culture is bad, but I think a lot of the time it comes back to their personal accountability of, to your point, is like, are you happy here in this role? And like, you know, at the end of the day, there's only so much you can do, Anthony, in your business to, you can provide a supportive environment and things like that, but if someone just does not feel aligned with the workplace, it's probably still going to be an issue.

Yeah, agreed, and I think it was a really nice point you made about getting yourself in a good place because sometimes we make these knee jerk reactions to leave when actually we're just, you know, in a mess and Saint Saint Ignatius of Loyola, who founded the Jesuits said never make a decision in desolation, always make a decision in consolation, so be in a good place, before you make a good, you know, a big decision like I'm leaving the veterinary profession, it, it, it can be just a case of, Finding a better place, as you say, sometimes you know that that first practise, for whatever reason wasn't right for you, don't, don't give up at that point 100%, yeah, yeah and one thing I haven't mentioned is I actually handed in my resignation to my boss in my first job just before 2 years and He was so shocked at my resignation that I realised that I actually was, I didn't feel like I was valued, but then all of a sudden I realised that I was actually important to the business. And around about that same time after handing in my resignation and then changing my mind, I ended up staying another year. So, Going back to the knee-jerk reactions, I think if, if we want to apply a scientific approach to this, it's like, you shouldn't be making big decisions when you're extremely stressed and tired and exhausted like this scientifically, you are going to be almost certainly making a bad decision.

And like some of the vets that I have coached, like I remember one girl saying, which kind of reflects a lot of people when they actually do the work, is it doesn't necessarily mean drastic changes, even necessarily quitting your job. Some of the biggest things that you can do is to, to put in firm boundaries in place. And you know, and then realising that, you know, in some cases it is genuinely a bad match and someone else moves to a different job.

And in some cases, I have worked with people that have ended up leaving clinical practise, but I have yet I've yet to work with someone who's completely left the vet profession, because at the end of the day, I truly believe, and I like to say this bit, which is, you know, they say that one of the signs of a psychopath is someone who abuses animals as kids. And so, applying that logic in reverse, someone who loves animals, is probably likely to be a good person. And I've found in my, you know, having worked in New Zealand and And then over in the UK and probably worked with a good, I don't know, at least 100 vets and vet nurses, if not more.

The vast, vast majority of people in our profession are good, lovely people. And I think that's the same with the world, isn't it? There are more good people in the world than than bad people, just sometimes it's that one client at the end of the day that's been a pain that you tend to go and talk about rather than the 1920 that have been really good.

So it, it's it's interesting, but I, I, I suppose the last point would be, you know, as owners of businesses, as senior vets. I do feel, and I've probably come to it reasonably late into my career, but just the importance of, of congratulating and and encouraging people that you work with, you know, just something that they've done well to, to tell them that they've done well, you know, the fact that you were leaving after two years, not thinking you were valued and then realising you were valued, that was partly a fault of the vet for not encouraging you and. Celebrating you when you've done something er good in the practise or looked after a client well or made a really fantastic diagnosis or just made people feel good within the business, it's er, encouragement is is such an important tool isn't it?

100%. And that is also reflective, at least in my experience of the, the rural culture too, like, it's sort of a bit of a, at least when I was going through, it was a bit of a rural, like tough band culture and like my, I actually saw my, old colleagues literally just last weekend, one of the, staff members was retiring, so I went and caught up with him, and they are genuinely some of the most like lovely people. It just was the culture and that wider business that, Probably like a lot of like people working really hard, thumbs down, and I can imagine in a lot of vet businesses, people are just so busy, and it's not intentional, but you know, months do pass and it's amazing what particularly when you're a young vet and you're really struggling, it's amazing what, you know, a kind word might do.

Yeah, I think in, in, in England we call it, in Britain we call it the stiff upper lip that still exists as well, but . Steve, it's been great chatting to you. I really hope the book which I know isn't out yet but will be coming out later in the year, Bite Marks and Burnouts is a, a big success.

I think it's great, you know, to talk about the profession in er in realistic terms, you know, to get people to come into the profession, I think people need to have their eyes wide open and, and then if you've got those wide open eyes, you're probably more likely to, Stick around and find that this is all a shock when you qualify or when you're deep into the course, so really appreciate the work you're doing there but also with the coaching and wishing you all the best for the future and obviously er looking forward to hearing when the, the book hits the shelves. So, just for our listeners, if you are interested in the book, I do have a website. So it's bitemarks and burnout.com.

So that's one word, Bite marks and Burnout. I'm aiming to release in October. I can't promise I'll be on time.

Like a lot of vets, but, some of the feedback that I have got from the first draught from vets who have read it is it is the most realistic perspective on what it's like to be a vet. And one of the things I've realised as I've written the book is it makes you realise, not just as a vet career, but careers in general, is, of course, there's going to be aspects of your job that aren't enjoyable, but that's kind of part of the journey. It's actually been really, it's been a rewarding process writing about the first decade of my career.

And, you know, talking about how, like, you know, really struggling and seeing myself get through these challenging periods and then have good periods as well. And it's not, yeah, the aim when, when talking about some of the more challenging aspects isn't to, to shine a light on these horrible aspects of the job. It's just to, to be realistic and for people to realise that actually, hang on, it's not, not all rainbows and butterflies, but it is still genuinely a very rewarding career, and I don't think I don't think you can have a truly rewarding career without the hard stuff, you know, if you want the, if you want an easy career, go and, .

I don't know, become an accountant. Yeah, no, don't want to have lots of accountants now telling us how difficult it is. Every job but it, it, it's, isn't it, where we can finish and, and then we forget about the job.

It is a rewarding job, but sometimes, as you say, to appreciate the good times you have to go through the bad times as well, don't you? If life was like that all the time, there would be no joy. 100%.

But lastly, Anthony, it's been a real pleasure being on your podcast and I appreciate having this conversation. Yeah Steve and and similarly really enjoyed chatting to you and and good luck with the book and let us know how, how it goes and thanks everyone for listening as well, I hope you've found it useful and we will see you on a podcast or a webinar very soon. Take care.